Should I give up on Love?

StillOne · Jul 10, 2013

Just to clarify, I'm asking about love in an intimate relationship. I'm not talking about love in friendship, with family, universal love, etc. I do really struggle with romantic relationships and hence this question.

I have unrealistic expectations. I'm particular and finicky. Some of you already know my difficulties in this area here. I tend to have rose colored glasses with my Ven/Nep conjunction. It seems I'm looking for something that doesn't exist here on planet earth. I have dreams of finding that exalted love and need a deep connection that is ever elusive.

The ruler of my 7th house (Saturn) is in the 12th and I agree with the definition of this position (and so why I think Equal house is more correct for my chart as compared to Whole house. However, if you would like me to post a Whole house chart I definitely will since I appreciate any interpretation).

Here are some of the features of my scope that give me reason to create this thread (taken from a post below):

* North Node in Capricorn
* Sun conj Uranus Semi-Square Venus conj Neptune
* Venus conj Neptune in Sagittarius
* Moon opposition Venus by declination
* Moon in 12th
* Ruler of the 1st in the 12th
* Ruler of the 7th in the 12th
* Mars is Retrograde and square Jupiter
* Pluto squares the Nodes
* Capricorn Descendant

With so much of my chart working against me in the area of relationship love, should I give up? I tend to worry about it (Cancer Asc) and I guess maybe I'm just trying too hard. With all the yods in my chart maybe I'm trying to control this too much and not leaving it up to fate? Maybe I should let go and let god? It seems I get quite consumed by it...

I created a horary also for the time that I'll post in that section.

Thanks for your honest astological opinion and advice.

*Possibly it's better to look at the converse and try and find astrological support in my chart why I should not give up on love? Not sure...

There are Placidus, Koch, Regimontanus, and Whole Sign charts some posts below.

IleneK · Jul 10, 2013

StillOne said:
Yup, I have unrealistic expectations. I'm particular and finicky. Some of you already know my difficulties in this area here. I tend to have rose colored glasses with my Ven/Nep conjunction. It seems I'm looking for something that doesn't exist here on planet earth. I have dreams of finding that exalted love and need a deep connection that is ever elusive.

The ruler of my 7th house (Saturn) is in the 12th and I agree with the definition of this position (and so why I think Equal house is more correct for my chart as compared to Whole house. However, if you would like me to post a Whole house chart I definitely will since I appreciate any interpretation).

With so much working against me in the area of Love, should I give up? I tend to worry about it (Cancer Asc) and I guess maybe I'm just trying too hard. With all the yods in my chart maybe I'm trying to control this too much and not leaving it up to fate? Maybe I should let go and let god? I'm quite consumed by it...

Should I give up on Love? I created a horary also for the time that I'll post in that section.

Thanks for your honest opinion and advice.

I don't think you should give up on being open to love. But I do think you should give up trying.
As we note the preponderance of inconjunct energy in your chart, I think you live with a huge dose of the unease that this aspect creates. Openness to love is always good and we never know in which moment it will present to us its embrace. You know we share some 12th house placements, especially the Moon, so I would recommend allowing as the watchword, and then surrender trying. All that should come to you will.

StillOne · Jul 10, 2013

IleneK said:
All that should come to you will.

Thank you and to me that is, in a sense, giving up... I do know that I can't force it. I can't/don't want to end up in the wrong situation. I've been there and it just doesn't work.

IleneK · Jul 10, 2013

StillOne said:
Thank you and to me that is, in a sense, giving up... I do know that I can't force it. I can't/don't want to end up in the wrong situation. I've been there and it just doesn't work.

If I may, to call

it giving up betrays your innate bias, your lack of faith. Which is fine.

Just know that we are talking here more about release from the burden under which you have been living and laboring, and that the state to which you may aspire is more closely aligned with the 12th, the house in which your 7th house ruler is domiciled.

This is such a very important turning point in your life and I truly wish you well!

Cheers to you.

StillOne · Jul 10, 2013

IleneK said:
your lack of faith.

Yes, maybe I need to let go of that. I suppose I always have thought that that would be a part of my life but it's just not.

IleneK said:
Just know that we are talking here more about release from the burden under which you have been living and laboring, and that the state to which you may aspire is more closely aligned with the 12th, the house in which your 7th house ruler is domiciled.

This is such a very important turning point in your life and I truly wish you well!

Cheers to you.

Thanks Ilene, it's a difficult thing for my head to wrap around. One that needs that adjustment that the quincunx calls for. Maybe it's the final key? Seems I've been busy adjusting like crazy lately... I suppose that's it...

IleneK · Jul 10, 2013

StillOne said:
Yes, maybe I need to let go of that. I suppose I always have thought that that would be a part of my life but it's just not.

Thanks Ilene, it's a difficult thing for my head to wrap around. One that needs that adjustment that the quincunx calls for. Maybe it's the final key? Seems I've been busy adjusting like crazy lately... I suppose that's it...

Letting go of your lack of faith might be a good starting point and it doesn't close the door on anything. I'm not even saying to replace the lack of faith with faith; only to be open to the groundlessness with which we all must live.

Your comment about trying to get your head around the matter inclined me to look at your natal, and I thought, just for fun and to pare down the problem, I would just look at the traditional planets out to Saturn only. This eliminates the almost overwhelming complexity of your chart and reveals, to me, the most compelling quincunxes: Moon-Mercury, Venus-Mars, and Jupiter-Saturn

All three are polarities: thinking-feeling, reception-assertion, expansion-contraction...And the planetary energies are not only connected by the inconjunct aspect, but two of them are even more strongly bound by mutual reception.
Jupiter Saturn has a positive reception between them, each in the sign of the other's dignity.
Moon Mercury are bound by reception, Mercury in harmony with Moon's sign. But Moon is not at ease, but rather in its fall, in Mercury's sign of Scorpio. So in addition to the uncertainty connected with the quincunx, thinking and feeling may not be able to coexist with the kind of harmony that one might wish for because of this reception. And it seems that Moon, peregrine, with neither dignity nor debility, and in the 12th, may be getting the short end of the stick, shall we say.
The third quincunx, Venus Mars, has a Mars unable to express its natural nature, in its detriment, but yet attracted to Venus.

So that is a broad stroke of the inner drama. There is a lot of back and forth for you between these inner planets in quincunx relationship. The one between you Jupiter and Saturn may explain the seesawing between faith and doubt. But the most challenging one and the one requiring the greatest release is likely Moon Mercury. Mercury in Scorpio needs to penetrate to the truth, cannot let go, is like a dog with a bone. But airy Moon knows from its 12th house domicile that there is no one truth, that the ground is always shifting, expanding and contracting, ebbing and flowing. Always.

The key may be to begin carefully observing your thinking about the matter of love, although it may be with some difficulty with your Moon trine Sun in air. Just a few minutes of mediation practice each day might be a means of letting your Mercury rest, by gently observing it in action and then letting it go. And by doing so, it may allow the door to the Moon, your true needs, to open, to bring greater clarity about them.

Feel free to PM me if you would like a sounding board regarding these quincunxes and their receptions.

Wishing you a peaceful and courageous heart.

Clinton Soule · Jul 10, 2013

IleneK stated:

Letting go of your lack of faith might be a good starting point and it doesn't close the door on anything. I'm not even saying to replace the lack of faith with faith; only to be open to the groundlessness with which we all must live.

Your comment about trying to get your head around the matter inclined me to look at your natal, and I thought, just for fun and to pare down the problem, I would just look at the traditional planets out to Saturn only. This eliminates the almost overwhelming complexity of your chart and reveals, to me, the most compelling quincunxes: Moon-Mercury, Venus-Mars, and Jupiter-Saturn

According to William F. Lilly, and my experiences reading horoscopes, and in natal I'm Not a Trad, having Saturn as one's 7th lord is not kind. Lilly in CAIII talking about the nativities of those with Saturn lord of the 7th noted it was a hard place.

But what IleneK is telling you here is the truth, in that Saturn's temptation to despair and depression is just mis-using your stars. One can look up all the famous people with Cancer risings and Capricorn 7ths regardless of aspects and find some have had horrible relationships and others who have learned to cope have a better time in marriage or relationships.

Pesently I'm doing some astro work for an 85 year old woman, friend of the family, who has Cancer rising. Not your placements, but it is so typical in that she married and divorced her husband around 5 times, then late in life married and divorced another. And she is an astrologer, with very hard aspects, but she could have chosen different choices and then again our choices are often limited due to either not knowing how to deal with our horoscopes or going with the obvious vibrations as we know people tend to do.

I have several astro lay women with Luna(Moon) cjt the 12th and Cancer Asc.,, of which in your provided chart I can't tell, being equal house.

It would be great to see this in Koch, Placidus, or what Lilly and Traditionalists prefer Regiomontanus!

But generally someone with the signs on the angles you have has a rough go at it until after their Saturn Return about 29 years of age. For then one grows up and the maturation of the Lord of the 7th coming home brings one into the reality of being more adult about their relationships.

As I can't see your house cusps under your present house system chosen I can not see as Max Heindel stated that '... the lord of the 7th, the sign of the 7th itself, Mars, and the Sun are the type of man you are seeking...but not nessasarily the type you get involved with...'.

But that Venus cjt Neptune is always going to bring you into romantic or partnership disillusion until you finally have learned to see the men in your life for who they are and wake up to the fact looking at him through rose-coloered glasses is not fair to him any more than it is to you.

If we knew your house cusp, looking at where saturn rules and is tells us what you the nativity Needs to do to adequately prosper with using your chart!

Matthew 18:18 (New King James Version)

18 Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

StillOne · Jul 10, 2013

Clinton Soule said:
It would be great to see this in Koch, Placidus, or what Lilly and Traditionalists prefer Regiomontanus!

As you wish. I've added the charts you suggested as well as Whole Sign.

Clinton Soule said:
If we knew your house cusp, looking at where saturn rules and is tells us what you the nativity Needs to do to adequately prosper with using your chart!

Hopefully these new charts provide a better picture for you.

I will respond to your and Ilene's post shortly as well.

Oh, I'm also male. Not sure if that changes things for you.

Thank you

StillOne · Jul 10, 2013

IleneK said:
Letting go of your lack of faith might be a good starting point and it doesn't close the door on anything. I'm not even saying to replace the lack of faith with faith; only to be open to the groundlessness with which we all must live.

Well, actually I've always had faith that I would find and be with someone. I suppose that's the issue. I've had faith all along. I suppose that maybe this comes with the Ven/Nep conjunction? That's part of the problem. I'm losing faith in that I'll find what I'm looking for. Maybe this faith was an illusion.

Actually, I'm coming to the conclusion that what I'm looking for may not actually exist... at least not in a real form and what I'm actually looking for is a Spiritual Love. One of devotion.

IleneK said:
Your comment about trying to get your head around the matter inclined me to look at your natal, and I thought, just for fun and to pare down the problem, I would just look at the traditional planets out to Saturn only. This eliminates the almost overwhelming complexity of your chart and reveals, to me, the most compelling quincunxes: Moon-Mercury, Venus-Mars, and Jupiter-Saturn

All three are polarities: thinking-feeling, reception-assertion, expansion-contraction...And the planetary energies are not only connected by the inconjunct aspect, but two of them are even more strongly bound by mutual reception.
Jupiter Saturn has a positive reception between them, each in the sign of the other's dignity.
Moon Mercury are bound by reception, Mercury in harmony with Moon's sign. But Moon is not at ease, but rather in its fall, in Mercury's sign of Scorpio. So in addition to the uncertainty connected with the quincunx, thinking and feeling may not be able to coexist with the kind of harmony that one might wish for because of this reception. And it seems that Moon, peregrine, with neither dignity nor debility, and in the 12th, may be getting the short end of the stick, shall we say.
The third quincunx, Venus Mars, has a Mars unable to express its natural nature, in its detriment, but yet attracted to Venus.

So that is a broad stroke of the inner drama. There is a lot of back and forth for you between these inner planets in quincunx relationship. The one between you Jupiter and Saturn may explain the seesawing between faith and doubt. But the most challenging one and the one requiring the greatest release is likely Moon Mercury. Mercury in Scorpio needs to penetrate to the truth, cannot let go, is like a dog with a bone. But airy Moon knows from its 12th house domicile that there is no one truth, that the ground is always shifting, expanding and contracting, ebbing and flowing. Always.

Yup you nailed it with the last couple of sentences. So very true.

I'll have to contemplate the chart without the outers as you mentioned it.

IleneK said:
The key may be to begin carefully observing your thinking about the matter of love, although it may be with some difficulty with your Moon trine Sun in air. Just a few minutes of mediation practice each day might be a means of letting your Mercury rest, by gently observing it in action and then letting it go. And by doing so, it may allow the door to the Moon, your true needs, to open, to bring greater clarity about them.

Feel free to PM me if you would like a sounding board regarding these quincunxes and their receptions.

Wishing you a peaceful and courageous heart.

Thanks Ilene. I think maybe this thread is at least partially due to the fact that I've begun my meditation practice again and it's beginning to flush stuff out.

An old natal chart reading I have suggested I become acetic. It's sounding like a good idea these days. I'm not sure I can even handle an intimate relationship anymore as it may just be too emotionally difficult.

Marinka · Jul 10, 2013

I'm not sure if you checked your transits at all but, Jupiter is coming up on your saturn in the 12th house and I expect that will loosen up some of the restrictions that you have set on yourself. Jupiter then continues it's move into the first house. Jupiter in the first house usually lifts any depressing circumstances and lets you see them in a more favorable light.

You also have Saturn directly opposing your mars in a stationary position and finally starting to move direct. Saturn has been retrograde for a bit and likely would cause a bit of frustration since it was sitting on your planet of action. Did things feel stalled .... Usually Saturn hits once on a direct motion, another time on a retrograde, and a last time on a direct - in your case the retrograde and last direct were in the degree of your Mars so - it was pretty much sitting on your mars.

Getting a bit of an impression that there may be someone at work as a possible interest as Jupiter rules the 6th and is sitting on your saturn, ruler of the 7th and saturn, ruler of the 7th is making aspect to Mars ruler of the 10th.

StillOne · Jul 10, 2013

Clinton Soule said:
According to William F. Lilly, and my experiences reading horoscopes, and in natal I'm Not a Trad, having Saturn as one's 7th lord is not kind. Lilly in CAIII talking about the nativities of those with Saturn lord of the 7th noted it was a hard place.

Good to know.

Clinton Soule said:
But what IleneK is telling you here is the truth, in that Saturn's temptation to despair and depression is just mis-using your stars. One can look up all the famous people with Cancer risings and Capricorn 7ths regardless of aspects and find some have had horrible relationships and others who have learned to cope have a better time in marriage or relationships.

Well, maybe I'm going through the coping mechanism. I suppose I'm just asking for guidance on what the whole chart says in regards to this. It certainly seems as if I'm in a difficult spot not only with Ven/Nep conj and the lord of the 7th in the 12th but also with Sun/Ur conj.

Clinton Soule said:
Pesently I'm doing some astro work for an 85 year old woman, friend of the family, who has Cancer rising. Not your placements, but it is so typical in that she married and divorced her husband around 5 times, then late in life married and divorced another. And she is an astrologer, with very hard aspects, but she could have chosen different choices and then again our choices are often limited due to either not knowing how to deal with our horoscopes or going with the obvious vibrations as we know people tend to do.

That's not so encouraging.

Clinton Soule said:
But generally someone with the signs on the angles you have has a rough go at it until after their Saturn Return about 29 years of age. For then one grows up and the maturation of the Lord of the 7th coming home brings one into the reality of being more adult about their relationships.

I suppose I'm a slow learner in this area then (Saturn?) as that return was 10 years ago now.

Clinton Soule said:
But that Venus cjt Neptune is always going to bring you into romantic or partnership disillusion until you finally have learned to see the men in your life for who they are and wake up to the fact looking at him through rose-coloered glasses is not fair to him any more than it is to you.

I met someone the other day and was pretty excited about the prospect but then caught myself and came back to reality... (I'm male fyi - not sure that makes a difference in your interpretation).

Clinton Soule said:
If we knew your house cusp, looking at where saturn rules and is tells us what you the nativity Needs to do to adequately prosper with using your chart!

I've looked at this sentence a couple of times now... "where saturn rules and is (located?) tells [me] what need to do to adequately prosper". Could you elaborate on this since I would absolutely love to prosper?!

StillOne · Jul 10, 2013

Marinka said:
I'm not sure if you checked your transits at all but, Jupiter is coming up on your saturn in the 12th house and I expect that will loosen up some of the restrictions that you have set on yourself. Jupiter then continues it's move into the first house. Jupiter in the first house usually lifts any depressing circumstances and lets you see them in a more favorable light.

I get a bit overwhelmed looking at my transits. I just got a new program to try and track them better but not sure it'll help.

I'm hoping you're right with the Jupiter transit. So that'll expand that Saturn Yod. Should be interesting times.

I hope you're right about the depressing circumstances. Really, I have nothing to be depressed about. I have a very nice life and feel a bit silly with this thread... but it's been on my mind a bit so I figured I'd throw it out there to see what the synopsis is.

Marinka said:
You also have Saturn directly opposing your mars in a stationary position and finally starting to move direct. Saturn has been retrograde for a bit and likely would cause a bit of frustration since it was sitting on your planet of action. Did things feel stalled .... Usually Saturn hits once on a direct motion, another time on a retrograde, and a last time on a direct - in your case the retrograde and last direct were in the degree of your Mars so - it was pretty much sitting on your mars.

Bingo! Thanks for pointing that out. I had forgotten that aspect on the retrograde. This has been very big lately and caused much disruption. I've had some errors at work. There's been very little progress in some of my interests even though I've had enlightenment on how to proceed. I was even hurt in one of my activities and it should have been really bad but I made it out with very little damage. Saturn is boomeranging the Mars tipped yod. Thanks for bringing that to my attention!

Marinka said:
Getting a bit of an impression that there may be someone at work as a possible interest as Jupiter rules the 6th and is sitting on your saturn, ruler of the 7th and saturn, ruler of the 7th is making aspect to Mars ruler of the 10th.

Hmmm, I'm not so sure about that... I work with mostly males. Also, I don't think I'll go that route again as I've done it before. I guess never say never...

Thanks Marinka!

tsmall · Jul 10, 2013

IleneK said:
I But I do think you should give up trying.
... All that should come to you will.

It's late and I'm not looking at charts anymore.

StillOne, your horaray chart has some nifty implications. Can't wait to have the time to dive into the natal.

Ok, so I had to take a little peek. This is in no way a delineation, because as you know that takes more than three seconds. If you look to the exaltation ruler of your 7th...Mars. What is he doing? He's retrograde in your 11th sign of trust and friendship. Which house is he posited in? The 10th. You are aware that the 10th has to do with status, which includes marriage status? Which is why we look at the 7th and the 10th for marriage?

What does Mars do? He retrogrades back into a collision with Jupiter by square. What does Jupiter rule? Your 5th, 9th...and 1st by exaltation. Where is Jupiter posited? In the 7th house and 8th sign. Who rules the 7th? Saturn. Saturn is in the ASC, in detriment, in the 12th house but the 1st sign. Do Jupiter and Saturn "see" each other? Oh heck no.

IleneK said:
I don't think you should give up on being open to love. But I do think you should give up trying.

Exactly.

I once (astrology not withstanding, since this was like 15 years before I "found" astrology) told a friend who also faced a similar dilemma that if he gave up trying to control when and where he found love, and learned to live with and love himself as a complete person...tossed his lot so to speak up to the Universe..he would finally find what he was looking for.

Stop trying. Start believing.

My friend and his lover are celebrating their 11th year together this summer.

Clinton Soule · Jul 11, 2013

StillOne, now that we know you are male it does change things.

I have a astro laywoman I serve with your asc and Moon placement, almost all house cusps are the same. She like you has had a very difficult time with love and just went through her Saturn Return at 29 and is still going through a divorce, yet living with some one else at this time.

And unlike you as she is an Arian, she doesn't quite want to listen to what the stars are saying, what she needs to do, for she can see she is in a simular quagmire, because we can't escape ourselves, we have to change or except the consequences. Part of her can not help it, it's just the way Aries are.

Stillone said:

Well, maybe I'm going through the coping mechanism. I suppose I'm just asking for guidance on what the whole chart says in regards to this. It certainly seems as if I'm in a difficult spot not only with Ven/Nep conj and the lord of the 7th in the 12th but also with Sun/Ur conj.

Well it is difficult, Saturn is like that, difficulty, obstruction, limitations, cold, barriers. And if you look at all the people with Cancer risings with Gemini Moons who obviously have Saturn ruled 7th houses you can see simularities.

http://www.astrotheme.com/celebrities/moon/ascendant/2/3.htm

But as Heindel says in his texts, and presently under the ongoing Mercury Rx I can't locate it, so I'll have to tell you as I've learned it without citing the quote.

http://www.rosicrucian.com/

Heindel taught that where a man's Moon, Venus, 7th and lord of the 7th, and of course their aspects describe the woman a man seeks but Not nessasarily what he will encounter.

Now Stillone, I well know you have possibly been involved with females who are on the path of sorrow, self-undoing, possibly in and out of trouble with the law such as jail and prison, maybe some have worked in hospitals or institutions of that kind. Or missionary or social worker types. The reason I say this without going into an in depth analysis is Saturn in the 12H is the joy of Saturn. And the 12th rules Prisons, Hospitals, Asylums, Monastic hermitage types of recluses.

But your tendacy is to be a martyr and play the missionary or social worker, possibly like a parole officer over these women. And that Doesn't make a great relationship for either party as one is enabling the other to continue the lifestyle that is hurting them!

With Saturn Squ Pluto you get some hard lessons as in:

Saturn square Pluto by Haydn Paul

With this aspect, it is likely that you will feel quite restricted by social and environmental constraints, and that the influence of the society in which you live will have considerable impact upon your life, often appearing to be a negative one.

Frustration appears to be inevitable; and you may feel that you are having to carry 'a burden for society', where you are involved in some way with a personal responsibility for some of society's troubles. This could be a form of work which takes you into problem areas, or even a sense of inner attunement to the suffering of the world. There is a form of linking between your personal unfoldment and growth and the struggles of mass humanity, one which you may experience or interpret in a peculiarly masochistic manner, or use as an excuse for personal failings.

Some of this tendency could arise from earlier life and parental relationships and conditioning, possibly from environmental deprivation of lack of fulfilling and meaningful contact with your parents and family. This can lead to a pattern of personal disappointments and lack of essential trust in life and the world, leaving you emotionally marked and feeling insecure in your own abilities and talents. You may feel 'hard done by', and feel envious of others who appear to be enjoying life and succeeding; there can be a 'chip on your shoulder' and a corrosive inner bitterness affecting your basic attitude.

When you do make extra efforts to make progress towards your aims, you often feel that you are being strangely hindered by events, people and circumstances which arise to frustrate, divert and block your attempts. Even though it may not appear so, this is likely to be the result in the outer world of inner projections, where through your own attitudes of defeatism and fear of success you trigger a reaction in the world to oppose you. You can create your own failure without consciously realising it.

You tend to be searching for status, power and the opportunity to influence people's lives, much in the same way that you feel your own life has been affected by nameless unknown others who make socially influential decisions. There is an element of wanting to dominate within you, possibly to 'get your own back' through blaming others for any problems that you have had.

To transform this oppressive pattern of limitation, you will need to radically alter your outlook on life and your self. The Pluto energy will help you to achieve this; and the first step is to draw back all the projections that you are overlaying on the world, and to recognise those that place the reason for failure 'out there'. You need to accept responsibility for your own life, decisions and choices, and begin to take control instead of being a frustrated, passive reactor.

Many have transcended difficult environmental barriers through assertiveness and effort of will, succeeding in breaking limitations and creating a life that satisfies them; and you need not be the exception to this possibility: the solution lies in your own psyche. Choose to change, observe the repetitive patterns of excuses and lack of commitment to succeed, and then override them through discipline and concentrated will. You are that 'mysterious barrier' opposing your own efforts; release the negativity that you cling to, and it will seem that a new world will open up for you, where you can begin to make progress, a world where more light can penetrate and illuminate the darkness. Remember, it is your own choice to remake your own life.

The reason I quote Hayden, Stillone, is Saturn(Chronor) rules your Marriage/co-habitation/relationships house. The first marriage partner or co-habitation partner should have echoed much of this as you can see many tendacies in yourself and the other! You should have seen a lot of the other in this Square that you have earned!

The stellar script continues.....

Genesis 1:14 (ESV)
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-...tent?oid=22904

Mandy · Jul 11, 2013

As I read this thread, particularly your responses, StillOne, my view is that it is not love that is the problem, love will be there, even if one-sided, whether you invite it or not, but your definition of love is that which you may give up on.

In particular, Ilene suggested you chill and stay open, and you, effectively, replied that that to you is 'giving up' and you are trying to avoid (exert control) dysfunctional relationships (if I have understood correctly).

Love is a bond that survives death. This inherent oneness is borne out by acceptance, compassion, surrender, openness to vulnerability, etc. Given that you have this idealised view of how things should work and unfold, I note, this is only a gospel by StillOne which cannot be shared completely by anyone and, if I may, I think there is even less chance of it being shared once someone is actually in that (pedestal/critical) situation with you, on the receiving end of it.

I wonder why psychologically that wish to control love is reinforced. I wonder if you have some issue with feeling vulnerable or a fear related to dysfunctional relationships, and that you may not have enough faith in yourself to handle those situations 'well,' that you feel compelled to control, in this ideal-ised way, what comes in.

I appreciate this is not a psychology thread and that it is an astrology thread. And I do not aim to sound anti-astrology. However, you claim that the planets are affecting you psychologically. What I am saying is that you can use psychology to bring out the best in your planetary make-up and it is a process (perhaps not an immediate answer). There is no fear in love.

Please feel no need to respond to this post. It is meant only as a flag.

StillOne · Jul 12, 2013

Clinton Soule said:
But your tendacy is to be a martyr and play the missionary or social worker, possibly like a parole officer over these women. And that Doesn't make a great relationship for either party as one is enabling the other to continue the lifestyle that is hurting them!

Interesting take. I'll keep that in mind.

Clinton Soule said:
The reason I quote Hayden, Stillone, is Saturn(Chronor) rules your Marriage/co-habitation/relationships house. The first marriage partner or co-habitation partner should have echoed much of this as you can see many tendacies in yourself and the other! You should have seen a lot of the other in this Square that you have earned!

That's pretty fascinating about the first partner and it does ring true. I suppose a reflection of myself. I certainly wanted to escape from that relationship just as most after.

Interesting as my 7th ruler lies in the 12th and I feel imprisoned when in a relationship... I think this is the biggest thing: The feeling of being imprisoned when I'm in a relationship and it causes me to need to leave. It's very difficult to describe the sensation but it's incredibly strong and it affects me intensely.

Thanks also for taking the time to write the definition of Saturn square Pluto. I copied it for my personal files since the Mods may cut that quote eventually for being too long. I may seek out sources of Hayden since I did find that quote informative.

Thanks for your time.

Mandy · Jul 12, 2013

Illene gave you psychological advice. tsmall gave you psychological advice. I gave you no advice at all. I simply noted observations about what was there. Maybe my post hit too close to the nerve. :biggrin:

You are now going to look for astrological support in your chart as to why you should not give up on love. I didnt realise love was an astrological phenomenon. :biggrin:

Controlling behaviour, on the other hand, is. With your ascendant being in Cancer. Cancer ascendant can be elementally controlling. Your ascendant ruler in 12th, the "hidden house" of "self-undoing," suggests to me a possible case for what is self-evident.

Love being not an astrological phenomenon, I felt it was fitting to highlight that it is also not synonymous with control. [deleted attacking comment - Moderator]

Clinton Soule · Jul 12, 2013

StillOne says:

Quote: Originally Posted by Clinton Soule The reason I quote Hayden, Stillone, is Saturn(Chronor) rules your Marriage/co-habitation/relationships house. The first marriage partner or co-habitation partner should have echoed much of this as you can see many tendacies in yourself and the other! You should have seen a lot of the other in this Square that you have earned!

Originally Posted by Clinton Soule
The reason I quote Hayden, Stillone, is Saturn(Chronor) rules your Marriage/co-habitation/relationships house. The first marriage partner or co-habitation partner should have echoed much of this as you can see many tendacies in yourself and the other! You should have seen a lot of the other in this Square that you have earned!

That's pretty fascinating about the first partner and it does ring true. I suppose a reflection of myself. I certainly wanted to escape from that relationship just as most after

Well like I said Vivian E. Robson, whom wrote this book that you should read:

http://www.cafeastrology.com/reviews/robson_astrology_and_sex.html

Robson pointed out that the 7th is Marriage and or Co-habitation. Well lets face it among most Western nations that claim to be Godly, which is very questionable by their laws and citizen's actions Biblicaly speaking in contrast, in that due to the illigetimization of marriage contract contrary to what the scriptures teach if these nations were Godly, so many couples choose an alternative to what they view as a marriage trap.

That 7th house then becomes one's first marriage or co-habitation, and in your case Stillone, it was and is a hard place as Kronus :saturn:

rules the 7th. So you had to feel much of that by Hayden and much of it is you minus or plus due to aspects and where planets are posited.

Just looking at your Falcifer(Saturn) :saturn:

, being posited in the 12th, which rules as I stated Hospitals, prisons, mental institutions(those three according to Heindel), and in it's detriment being in cancer :cancer:

, I'd say you ought to seek out women who work in the medical field as nurses, aids in mental institutions, social workers, missionarys, etc. In other words you need a compassionate [12th house] female rather than those sorrowful cases like those heading to prison or the 'sob story types' you have fell victim to or will if you can't seem to alter your path.

StillOne:

Interesting as my 7th ruler lies in the 12th and I feel imprisoned when in a relationship... I think this is the biggest thing: The feeling of being imprisoned when I'm in a relationship and it causes me to need to leave. It's very difficult to describe the sensation but it's incredibly strong and it affects me intensely.

But who has built that prison for themself?

See these Horoscopes, the maps we have been given, are not just random in that the Creator threw the dice and Presto we have God creating a path of Dissaster or Paradice for ourselves. We made a contract with the Creator before we went into the post mortum sleep after we went to the Light we will all see and we were judged and given another lesson which in your case you are experiencing the karma of your past lives. :rightful:

Stillone:

Thanks also for taking the time to write the definition of Saturn square Pluto.

Well you may Not understand, except for basically John F. Frawley, who uses Outers slightly, and is therefore a Renegade of sorts by some Ultra-Trads oppinions, Hayden's usage of Outers like Pluto is that of a Moderne in his Natal astrology.

However, a small point, in Horary I stick to the fore-fathers oppinons, Traditionalists prior to 1700, but in natal, transits, progressions and directions, compatibility, rectification, etc., I'm on the Mod Squad as well as incorporate Traditionalism in my work; for the record.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBxTT2Th9s4

No, No, not that Mod Squad the Modernes; had to throw in a lil humor getting Saturnine dry around here! :biggrin:

Matthew 2:1 Expanded Bible
[ Wise Men Come to Visit Jesus ] ·When [After] Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem in Judea during the time when Herod was king, some ·wise men [astrologers; magi; C a class of wise men and priests who practiced astrology] from the east came to Jerusalem.

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-...tent?oid=22904

Clinton Soule · Jul 12, 2013

Mandy stated:

Love is a bond that survives death. This inherent oneness is borne out by acceptance, compassion, surrender, openness to vulnerability, etc. Given that you have this idealised view of how things should work and unfold, I note, this is only a gospel by StillOne which cannot be shared completely by anyone and, if I may, I think there is even less chance of it being shared once someone is actually in that (pedestal/critical) situation with you, on the receiving end of it.

Mandy, I've had this argument with someone who was instramental as an astrologer influencing me for the past 30 years, in that Heindel says we have oppritunitys to change regardless of negative tendacies in our maps as there are redeeming qualities in every horoscope. And this teacher's experienes who I've know for over 30 yeras has the oppinion, '..they can't help it, they are as they are, they can not change...'. :sad:

I'm with Heindel that there are Outs in every horoscope. Like if one has a tendacy to heavy drug usage there is a remedy within the chart and knowledge is power. But with his Venus cjt Neptune, I can understand and many of us can intellectually understand who he is or why he experiences what he does. But we only can understand intellectually if we don't have the simular aspect and positions.

Mandy:

I wonder why psychologically that wish to control love is reinforced. I wonder if you have some issue with feeling vulnerable or a fear related to dysfunctional relationships, and that you may not have enough faith in yourself to handle those situations 'well,' that you feel compelled to control, in this ideal-ised way, what comes in.

Mandy, almost all the nativities I have done natal horoscopes for have a simular outlook whom have Saturn ruling their 7th. The Goat on his mountain does Not want to share control as a rule, they are 'cold, austere, clamy' until one finally melts the frozen matter of their love nature, then they truly show depth of love that they often hide.

Note Arnold Swatrznegger's horoscope in this thread, he is also cancer rising, my last and only post on OP Boom's Combustion thread(??):

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65414

Saturn :saturn:

can not love as Venus can, they are very different in their approaches!

Psalm 19:1-4 Amplified Bible (AMP)

1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows and proclaims His handiwork.
2 Day after day pours forth speech, and night after night shows forth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor spoken word [from the stars]; their voice is not heard.
4 Yet their voice [in evidence] goes out through all the earth, their sayings to the end of the world. Of the heavens has God made a tent for the sun,

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-reader/content?oid=22904

StillOne · Jul 12, 2013

Clinton Soule said:
Robson pointed out that the 7th is Marriage and or Co-habitation. Well lets face it among most Western nations that claim to be Godly, which is very questionable by their laws and citizen's actions Biblicaly speaking in contrast, in that due to the illigetimization of marriage contract contrary to what the scriptures teach if these nations were Godly, so many couples choose an alternative to what they view as a marriage trap.

That 7th house then becomes one's first marriage or co-habitation, and in your case Stillone, it was and is a hard place as Kronusrules the 7th. So you had to feel much of that by Hayden and much of it is you minus or plus due to aspects and where planets are posited.

Indeed, and it has finally dawned on me why I do feel the way I do in a relationship and it is acknowledged here in the natal chart as the Moon is there as well... although in a different sign. Mercury ruling that sign and why I most likely contemplate it quite so. Very fascinating.

Clinton Soule said:
Just looking at your Falcifer(Saturn), being posited in the 12th, which rules as I stated Hospitals, prisons, mental institutions(those three according to Heindel), and in it's detriment being in cancer, I'd say you ought to seek out women who work in the medical field as nurses, aids in mental institutions, social workers, missionarys, etc. In other words you need a compassionate [12th house] female rather than those sorrowful cases like those heading to prison or the 'sob story types' you have fell victim to or will if you can't seem to alter your path.

It certainly is interesting since my mother (Moon) works at a hospital. Of course you can tell that my father was not around (Saturn). The love they had didn't work out. My soul enters to learn the lessons of this karmic implication. A romantic relationship, for me, seems to be laced with much.

Clinton Soule said:
But who has built that prison for themself?

Have I built it for myself? Or was it by design? I suppose you answer that next...

Clinton Soule said:
See these Horoscopes, the maps we have been given, are not just random in that the Creator threw the dice and Presto we have God creating a path of Dissaster or Paradice for ourselves. We made a contract with the Creator before we went into the post mortum sleep after we went to the Light we will all see and we were judged and given another lesson which in your case you are experiencing the karma of your past lives.

Indeed, and it is my belief also. I carry the strengths and weaknesses that I was given. I'm a big believer in Karma and reincarnation. Certainly after becoming more familiar with astrology!

Thanks again Clinton Soule. I appreciate the insight.

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