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Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


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  #1  
Unread 04-05-2016, 07:59 PM
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waybread waybread is offline
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Is it a "when" or a "will I"?

We've all seen the questions on both the horary and natal boards where the querent asks:

"When am I going to get married?" or

"When will my money work out?" or a similar question.

I don't know about you, but I find such questions to be a bit grating. It seems to me that the question should be worded:

"Will I get married?" (With the possible addition of "And if so, when is a good or likely time for it to happen?")

"Will my money work out?" (With the possible additions of "If so, how or when"?)


When are you going to get married? Maybe never.

Maybe your money will never work out unless/until you learn better personal finance strategies.

A question worded as a "when" when the hoped-for event may never happen seems to me to be either impractical or like trying to trick or force the oracle.

Maybe I'm imagining things, but I also am seeing more OPs from younger people who seem to view their lives as a sort of film over which they have no control, and can only watch as a viewer trapped within a 3D story. In which case, the only purpose of a horoscope reading seems to be to forecast how the particular movie of one's life is going to play out. Is this the upshot of too many "helicopter moms" scripting their kids' every move? Or a new interpretation of human agency?

For example,

"What will be my future career?"

Astrologers vary in terms of whether they take a highly deterministic, fatalistic view of astrology, vs. a choice-centered approach. (I personally feel that the old "fate vs. free will" debate is truly unhelpful, as nobody is 100% based in one or the other.) My position is that each planet, sign, house, and sensitive point has several legitimate interpretations, regardless of whether one does modern or traditional astrology. The chart will express itself in some fashion consistent with its placements, but people have some choice as to whether they enact empowering or disempowering interpretations.

Your thoughts on these matters?

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Unread 04-05-2016, 08:13 PM
Kitchy Kitchy is offline
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Re: Is it a "when" or a "will I"?

I agree.

People who ask 'when?' to get specific answers for things to come might as well consult the astrologers and psychics who predict the end of the world. Free will or a missed phone call can change the outcome of anything.

But - say for example, a

"When did my husband cheat on me?" horary. That's a different 'when?'

In chart, I expect to a see a querant ruler and moon in good aspect - and Moon having passed quesited, whose ruler happens to be aligned with Venus or Mars in in the chart at time of passing.

Being that I'm not one who knows horary timing personally, I know from the horary trads here, it can be timed out pretty particularly down to days or weeks. It's much easier to look at chart's forensically (hindsight is 20/20) than as if they are crystal balls.
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Unread 04-05-2016, 10:00 PM
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waybread waybread is offline
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Re: Is it a "when" or a "will I"?

Right-- I should hasten to add that if the querent knows for a fact that an event occurred, then a "when" question could be appropriate. "When is a good date to get married?" when the querent is engaged and wants to set the wedding date through electional methods is also appropriate.

I do feel we're asked to do enough fortune-telling as it is without having the question twisted to suggest that marriage, a lottery winning, or children are foregone conclusions, with the question merely one of timing.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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Unread 04-10-2016, 10:01 PM
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Osamenor Osamenor is offline
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Re: Is it a "when" or a "will I"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
We've all seen the questions on both the horary and natal boards where the querent asks:

"When am I going to get married?" or

"When will my money work out?" or a similar question.

I don't know about you, but I find such questions to be a bit grating. It seems to me that the question should be worded:

"Will I get married?" (With the possible addition of "And if so, when is a good or likely time for it to happen?")

"Will my money work out?" (With the possible additions of "If so, how or when"?)


When are you going to get married? Maybe never.

Maybe your money will never work out unless/until you learn better personal finance strategies.

A question worded as a "when" when the hoped-for event may never happen seems to me to be either impractical or like trying to trick or force the oracle.
Agreed 100%.

I did some tarot reading before I started exploring astrology, and even there, I wouldn't do "fated" questions. If I was reading for someone and they asked "will x happen," I would suggest that they reword the question so that it would be about what would be the likely outcome if they did x. I think that works with astrology, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Maybe I'm imagining things, but I also am seeing more OPs from younger people who seem to view their lives as a sort of film over which they have no control, and can only watch as a viewer trapped within a 3D story. In which case, the only purpose of a horoscope reading seems to be to forecast how the particular movie of one's life is going to play out. Is this the upshot of too many "helicopter moms" scripting their kids' every move? Or a new interpretation of human agency?
Maybe... or maybe that's a reflection of which younger people gravitate to astrology forums. And of how younger people understand astrology. Usually, all they've been exposed to is the newspaper horoscope variety. Maybe the young people who feel they have *some* control over their career choices and so forth are less likely to seek astrology readings in the first place.

People of any age seem to come here for one of two reasons: they want to learn and practice astrology, or they want to get a free chart reading. The ability to practice astrology requires some exposure to comprehensive astrology first. Young people don't get that exposure unless they've sought it out, which few have--unless they live in a culture where astrology is part of the fabric, ie India, and in that kind of culture, the predeterminism view tends to dominate. So naturally, we see more "tell me my fortune" posts from younger people.

The younger members we do have who study astrology are not the ones who make the "tell me what career I'll have" kinds of posts. If they ask any career questions, it's something like, "Is this kind of career best for me?"
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  #5  
Unread 04-11-2016, 12:10 AM
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Re: Is it a "when" or a "will I"?

Thanks for your wisdom, Osamenor.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #6  
Unread 04-11-2016, 04:09 PM
muchacho muchacho is offline
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Re: Is it a "when" or a "will I"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Astrologers vary in terms of whether they take a highly deterministic, fatalistic view of astrology, vs. a choice-centered approach. (I personally feel that the old "fate vs. free will" debate is truly unhelpful, as nobody is 100% based in one or the other.) My position is that each planet, sign, house, and sensitive point has several legitimate interpretations, regardless of whether one does modern or traditional astrology. The chart will express itself in some fashion consistent with its placements, but people have some choice as to whether they enact empowering or disempowering interpretations.

Your thoughts on these matters?
Astrology works for both world views, deterministic and choice-centered.

The way I see it, the chart only shows potentials which have to be triggered in order to unfold. That happens in different ways. There are the primary natural triggers that are similar for everyone and that are built into the chart and then there are the secondary triggers that usually happen via relationships or key experiences. The primary ones are more or less predictable, the secondary ones are not.
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