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  #401  
Unread 03-29-2020, 02:01 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

http://theapolloniantransmission.com...enus-pandemos/

Nietzsche suggested that Mary and Jesus correspond with the Venus and Adonis in the Adonis cult. This correlation is undoubtedly true. Indeed, archeological evidence suggests that Christianity was founded on an important center of the Adonis cult in Bethlehem.

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  #402  
Unread 03-29-2020, 02:21 AM
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http://theapolloniantransmission.com...enus-pandemos/

Nietzsche suggested that Mary and Jesus correspond with the Venus and Adonis in the Adonis cult. This correlation is undoubtedly true. Indeed, archeological evidence suggests that Christianity was founded on an important center of the Adonis cult in Bethlehem.
Oh Opal that is interesting.
Didn’t know Adonis hung out with Persephone and was annually resurrected.
https://phoenicia.org/adonis.html
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  #403  
Unread 03-29-2020, 02:42 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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http://theapolloniantransmission.com...enus-pandemos/

Nietzsche suggested that Mary and Jesus correspond with the Venus and Adonis in the Adonis cult. This correlation is undoubtedly true. Indeed, archeological evidence suggests that Christianity was founded on an important center of the Adonis cult in Bethlehem.
Didn't Nietzsche go insane towards the end of his life? Poor guy. That sounds like an insane proposition.
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  #404  
Unread 03-29-2020, 02:51 AM
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Oh Opal that is interesting.
Didn’t know Adonis hung out with Persephone and was annually resurrected.
https://phoenicia.org/adonis.html
Thanks Passiflora! I find it interesting as well. Another representation of the yearly passing of the season’s. The male, the female. Yin, Yang. Positive, Negative. Gender, both. Working together as one.

Nice link. I will be back later, I am tired.
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  #405  
Unread 03-29-2020, 02:57 AM
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Didn't Nietzsche go insane towards the end of his life? Poor guy. That sounds like an insane proposition.
Just because a person has mental issues, does not negate their studies. Most people have had some kind of mental health issues. We are human. Not to be confused with humane.
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  #406  
Unread 03-29-2020, 02:57 AM
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Oh Opal that is interesting.
Didn’t know Adonis hung out with Persephone and was annually resurrected.
https://phoenicia.org/adonis.html
Goodnight Passiflora!
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  #407  
Unread 03-29-2020, 03:51 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Thanks for sharing your beliefs, Petosiris.

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I don't see Rabbinic kosher conversion in the book of Ruth. So I believe you are a Biblical Jew.
With all due respect, Petosiris, Jewish conversion requirements have changed since the 5th century BCE.

Judaism, like Christianity, did not end with the codification of their respective Bibles. Religions are loaded with subsequent centuries of exegesis, doctrines, creeds, books of prayer, hymns, histories, and post-biblical writings. Think of the catechism of the Catholic church, or the writings of the Church Fathers. The Book of Mormon. Or something like Martin Luther's banns.

Similarly, the requirements for conversion to Judaism changed and became more stringent with the times. Orthodox rabbis were advised actually to turn away would-be converts, as a means of testing their sincerity.

Would-be converts are warned that they are asking to join a group that has experienced serious discrimination. They are told that Judaism does not need converts who join for a while and then revert to another faith.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...rsion-process/

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/so-yo...aism-1.5312365

Ruth's personal decision to join her mother-in-law's people would not be a kosher conversion today. Nor would a marriage between a Jewish man (Mahlon) and non-Jewish woman (Ruth.) However, the character of Ruth is set up as an exemplar for converts.

My conversion involved a period of study, a Bet Din, a mikveh, and acquiring a Hebrew name (for religious, not civil purposes.) So it wasn't so simple as Ruth's. However. because the supervising rabbi was Conservative, an Orthodox rabbi might not accept it as valid.

This would only matter if I somehow wished to become involved in a Orthodox congregation, or if I wished to claim the "right of return" to immigrate to Israel and claim Israeli citizenship. This is because the chief rabbinates of Israel are Orthodox. (You probably know that most Israelis are secular.)

A common pitfall for Christians is that their knowledge of Judaism basically ends with the early centuries CE. And then what they do learn about Judaism is often highly filtered through Christian lenses.
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  #408  
Unread 03-29-2020, 04:08 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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If the Bible is not source of truth, then which faith and works I should have? One can come up with anything.
Petosiris, I'm not here to answer such a question you.

I would point out that some people derive deep truths from writings that are not literally, factually correct. The Bible itself is full of poetry, allegory, metaphors, parables, and riddles. I might argue that in many, many places the authors of the Bible did not take themselves literally. Rather, a parable would be used to teach a lesson, and point to a deeper truth.

In the original Hebrew of the OT, meaning is often derived from wordplay, with homonyms, something often lost in English translation.

You might enjoy reading the books by biblical scholar Robert Alter, like The Art of Biblical Narrative. One of his contributions was showing how the Bible uses type scenes, in which a familiar plot line is varied by different characters, but is basically the same plot. The well and the tree theme would be one such example. Also, Alter's Art of Bible Translation.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #409  
Unread 03-29-2020, 04:11 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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No one outside Roman Catholicism, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches ''venerates'' Mary. God said he would beget the Messiah in Psalm 2 of the Hebrew Scriptures. It has nothing to do with s*x, as God unlike other gods is invisible, incorporeal and uncreated spirit. He can't do something that is contrary to his perfect nature.
We know from the Bible that God can take on human forms. He has a back, a strong right arm, and hands. He walks in His garden in the cool of the day. Of course, these would be literal interpretations of the text.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #410  
Unread 03-29-2020, 04:23 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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We know from the Bible that God can take on human forms. He has a back, a strong right arm, and hands. He walks in His garden in the cool of the day. Of course, these would be literal interpretations of the text.
We know also that no one can see God and live.
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  #411  
Unread 03-29-2020, 04:28 AM
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We know also that no one can see God and live.
That was said about Zeus, as well.
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  #412  
Unread 03-29-2020, 04:35 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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That was said about Zeus, as well.
I didn't know that. How did he have lovers and statues made of him then?
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  #413  
Unread 03-29-2020, 04:50 AM
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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I didn't know that. How did he have lovers and statues made of him then?
That's the form he used when he interacted with mortals. He could take any form he wanted.
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  #414  
Unread 03-29-2020, 04:53 AM
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

There seems to be some agreement among historians that Zeus was in large part based on the Hebrew One God. However, the Greeks thought having only one god to worship was too limiting.
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  #415  
Unread 03-29-2020, 05:01 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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That's the form he used when he interacted with mortals. He could take any form he wanted.
I don't believe in a visible God of either the OT or the NT. What people saw were the angel of the Lord, visions or apostles carrying the divine name. They are representative of God, but they are not literally God, and should not be religiously worshipped. Ontologically different, functionally the same yes. God is one, not two, three or ten.
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  #416  
Unread 03-29-2020, 05:05 AM
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Thanks Passiflora! I find it interesting as well. Another representation of the yearly passing of the season’s. The male, the female. Yin, Yang. Positive, Negative. Gender, both. Working together as one.

Nice link. I will be back later, I am tired.
Good night Opal, I hope the friends you have been looking after are okay - many older people I know are anxious and vulnerable to the effects of isolation and services shut down.

Yes the acknowledgement of earth’s cycles seems like a significant component of any religion that successfully avoids destroying the planet. Nature-linked religions are kind of literally psychodynamic. I am not familiar with Kabbalah or much of Christian or Islamic mysticism, but they do not seem to partake of this repetitive honoring of cycles of birth, death, rebirth. There’s just one age for resurrection in Christianity, and one fixed Easter rebirth that all springs which follow seem to become hollow echoes of. On a different note Islam honors and recognizes the need for a multitude of prophets throughout history, but then Muhammed is supposed to be the last one forever. What happened to the human psychological need for prophets? Well we got capitalism so I suppose we have profits instead.
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  #417  
Unread 03-29-2020, 05:05 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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I don't believe in a visible God of either the OT or the NT. What people saw were the angel of the Lord, visions or apostles carrying the divine name. They are representative of God, but they are not literally God, and should not be religiously worshipped. Ontologically different, functionally the same yes. God is one, not two, three or ten.
I believe the Bible teaches that different beings can be functionally one person through the principle of agency (the shaliah is regarded as the sender himself - John 13:20), rather than one being manifesting in different persons/hypostases/modes/parts/emanations etc. (sounds Greek and Gnostic to me). I wonder if waybread would agree with me, or does she believe in two powers in heaven.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-29-2020 at 05:15 AM.
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  #418  
Unread 03-29-2020, 05:19 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I don't believe in a visible God of either the OT or the NT. What people saw were the angel of the Lord, visions or apostles carrying the divine name. They are representative of God, but they are not literally God, and should not be religiously worshipped. Ontologically different, functionally the same yes. God is one, not two, three or ten.
What about the wording of the Commandment, "no other gods before Him"? Apparently, the Israelites took this to mean that they could partake in rituals (including temple prostitutes) of other nations, as long as they placed the worship of their God above all others. The prophets emphatically disagreed!

But, it does sound like they were willing to believe in lesser gods, meaning they weren't strictly monotheistic. There was competition to prove whose god was mightier, but the other, lesser gods weren't dismissed as mere demons. That came much later, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
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  #419  
Unread 03-29-2020, 05:30 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I don't believe in a visible God of either the OT or the NT. What people saw were the angel of the Lord, visions or apostles carrying the divine name. They are representative of God, but they are not literally God, and should not be religiously worshipped. Ontologically different, functionally the same yes. God is one, not two, three or ten.
Of course, the Hebrew word Elohim is plural.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #420  
Unread 03-29-2020, 05:35 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

If idolatry meant having equal gods, then no nation would be idolatrous, as they all plainly admitted hierarchies of greater and lesser deities.

''Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me.'' - Isaiah 46:9

There is no greater and lesser deity, as there can't be no comparison with the Lord God.
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  #421  
Unread 03-29-2020, 05:38 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Of course, the Hebrew word Elohim is plural.
Dagon is Elohim. He is a false god and a single person.

You know better that Elohim is constantly used as a singular noun, and its plurality is probably related to majesty rather than multiplicity. Otherwise it should always be translated as ''gods'' regardless of the context.
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  #422  
Unread 03-29-2020, 05:41 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I believe the Bible teaches that different beings can be functionally one person through the principle of agency (the shaliah is regarded as the sender himself - John 13:20), rather than one being manifesting in different persons/hypostases/modes/parts/emanations etc. (sounds Greek and Gnostic to me). I wonder if waybread would agree with me, or does she believe in two powers in heaven.
Well, I don't believe in "heaven" in the Christian sense.

Case in point: the Hebrew word for "heaven" and "sky" are the same: sh'mayim Similarly, the German word Himmel means both heaven and sky. But if there is a Christian heaven, is it actually up in the sky? The Lord's prayer can certainly be read this way.

There is a fair bit of evidence that actual on-the-ground Jewish worship in biblical times included a female consort for God, or the Assyrian Queen of Heaven. Of course, this got edited out of the texts. See Raphael Patai, The Hebrew Goddess.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #423  
Unread 03-29-2020, 05:48 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Well, I don't believe in "heaven" in the Christian sense.

Case in point: the Hebrew word for "heaven" and "sky" are the same: sh'mayim Similarly, the German word Himmel means both heaven and sky. But if there is a Christian heaven, is it actually up in the sky? The Lord's prayer can certainly be read this way.

There is a fair bit of evidence that actual on-the-ground Jewish worship in biblical times included a female consort for God, or the Assyrian Queen of Heaven. Of course, this got edited out of the texts. See Raphael Patai, The Hebrew Goddess.
I don't believe in the Christian heaven of disembodied souls either. Many Christians don't. The heavens is also always plural.

I meant ''Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism'' by Alan F. Segal. It tries to argue that the Old Testament presents evidence for binitarianism that was widespread among Jews, Christians and Gnostics.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-29-2020 at 05:52 AM.
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  #424  
Unread 03-29-2020, 05:57 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Dagon is Elohim. He is a false god and a single person.

You know better that Elohim is constantly used as a singular noun, and its plurality is probably related to majesty rather than multiplicity. Otherwise it should always be translated as ''gods'' regardless of the context.
Exactly so. In the beginning, the "gods" came down to earth. The creator God speaks to them: "Let us make man in our image and after our likeness."

Elohim-- a Hebrew plural-- has merely been explained away by theologians uncomfortable with the plural concept.

As you know, the Bible borrows from older sources of Egypt, Mesopotamia, and the Levant. Elohim described the Canaanite pantheon, with El as the patriarch god. There are passages throughout the OT that attest to the belief in the actual existence of other gods. Jews, however, are told not to worship them. Then what are angels, cherubim, seraphim, and Satan (in whom you believe)?
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #425  
Unread 03-29-2020, 06:04 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Exactly so. In the beginning, the "gods" came down to earth. The creator God speaks to them: "Let us make man in our image and after our likeness."

Elohim-- a Hebrew plural-- has merely been explained away by theologians uncomfortable with the plural concept.

As you know, the Bible borrows from older sources of Egypt, Mesopotamia, and the Levant. Elohim described the Canaanite pantheon, with El as the patriarch god. There are passages throughout the OT that attest to the belief in the actual existence of other gods. Jews, however, are told not to worship them. Then what are angels, cherubim, seraphim, and Satan (in whom you believe)?
I believe Moses wrote the Torah.

I think you missed the Messiah and the judges who are also called Elohim. People should know that beings other than God can be called god, while at the same time saying that there is only one God and no other.

I don't believe the scriptures call them gods literally, but entirely metaphorically, and I read the whole books, which are filled with references to the unitary monotheism of the Jews.

Although God in Gen. 1:26 may have spoken to angels or to his personified wisdom, or with a ''royal we'', in the very next verse Gen. 1:27 we learn that he did all by himself. Your teachers have a wise saying about this - that whenever a heretic comes to you with a verse, you should just read the next verse.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-29-2020 at 06:20 AM.
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