Presidential elections

Kannon

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

A lot of this discussion has been qualified with "if that 8:02 am birth time is correct", which is another way of saying if that chart is correct. It is not. The 8:02 am time of record is probably pretty accurate, but as I've said many times, this does not guarantee an accurate chart.

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Hillary Clinton's somewhat rounded facial outline left open the possibility of an Asc in a cardinal sign, Libra. If she were a double Scorpio with Sun near her Asc her face would have an unquestioned squarish outline pointing directly to an Asc in a fixed sign and near a planet of fixity.

I went about an extensive effort at validating Hillary Clinton's chart over a few years time, completing it a few months ago. I'm one of very few rectifiers that uses fixed Chart Validation Standards for all such charts. The chart I use for her has 27 Libra at the Asc. I used the exact coordinates for Edgewater hospital where she was born and checked this chart against Bill's, her daughter's, and used 8 events to test it. That is a lower number than I'd usually use, but it was enough for an effective differential.

Clearly Romney is not and was not in play again for 2016. He was never liked by either the GOP establishment or the mainstream. He merely survived a 2012 primary characterized by a divisive plurality on the right that left the door wide open for him. Take a look at Romney's transits for when he bowed out on January 30, 2015:

Saturn 18S54 declination was parallel natal Moon listed at 18S57, and natal Jupiter 18S31. Saturn even now (18S11) remains in range of these, and returns to the declination spot of these two natal planets this October. IF you use the standard 1 Gemini chart for him, transiting Saturn was also parallel the MC of that chart. These alone should be enough to advise astrologers to consult the declinations carefully before making predictions or assessing the viability of a candidate's chart (or before doing any interpretation for anyone for that matter).

Pluto was 20S35 on the day he opted out of the 2016 race and that was contra-parallel natal Saturn at 20N16.

Now that he has shut the door, it simply doesn't matter what his transits look like for the primaries or convention in 2016, because he was never liked in the first place and the GOP can't stand people who flip-flop. Romney is better cut out for big business and for occasional public services in a more limited spectrum in which his stiffness and public image don't work against him as in national politics.
 

MaybeNow

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

Romney is better cut out for big business and for occasional public services in a more limited spectrum in which his stiffness and public image don't work against him as in national politics.

And we all know that in politics, even more so than in show business, image is everything. I predict the best looking minority candidate who has the best joke writers will win. Of course, his wife must have a good stylist or all bets are off!
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

Pluto was 20S35 on the day he opted out of the 2016 race
and that was contra-parallel natal Saturn at 20N16.
dwarf planet pluto is of no consequence on our Traditional Forum

i.e :smile:

TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY FORUM is

QUOTE


'.....For discussions on Traditional Astrology only......
and exludes modern planets Neptune, Uranus and Pluto....
The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction.
Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas
should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.....'
 

claudette

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

Kannon, what birth time do you use for HRC? What facial characteristics would you expect with scorp rising that you do not see in her face? What's your take on a libra rising? I confess I haven't paid any attention to her. That's a powerful chart, though: the leo and scorp squares, for starters. And Bernie Sanders moon (?) and mars quincunx her south node-mars exactly quincunx. To me that is significant: aries taking on the scorp.

Does anyone have a birthtime for Bernie Sanders?

Jupasc-so good to hear from you, I was hoping you would see this post. I was going to PM you today to see if I could talk you into participating.

I think it would be so interesting to have a discussion of these two candidates, Sanders and Clinton, and watch the dynamics and events as they unfold over time between now and the election. Anyone else interested?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

Kannon, what birth time do you use for HRC? What facial characteristics would you expect with scorp rising that you do not see in her face? What's your take on a libra rising? I confess I haven't paid any attention to her. That's a powerful chart, though: the leo and scorp squares, for starters. And Bernie Sanders moon (?) and mars quincunx her south node-mars exactly quincunx. To me that is significant: aries taking on the scorp.

Does anyone have a birthtime for Bernie Sanders?

Jupasc-so good to hear from you, I was hoping you would see this post. I was going to PM you today to see if I could talk you into participating.

I think it would be so interesting to have a discussion of these two candidates, Sanders and Clinton, and watch the dynamics and events as they unfold over time between now and the election. Anyone else interested?
claudette there's no known time of birth for Bernie Sanders
and the internet is replete with astrologers who are certain they have rectified it
but it's all a matter of opinion - as ever :smile:
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Re: Romney next US President?

A lot of this discussion has been qualified with "if that 8:02 am birth time is correct", which is another way of saying if that chart is correct. It is not. The 8:02 am time of record is probably pretty accurate, but as I've said many times, this does not guarantee an accurate chart.

Why does an accurate birth time not guarantee an accurate chart? How do you know if a chart is accurate?
 

MaybeNow

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

Don't waste your time and energy on any candidate now. Too many "contenders" and wannabes, many not serious. Wait until the field narrows.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

Why does an accurate birth time not guarantee an accurate chart? How do you know if a chart is accurate?
because Kannon follows John Wilner and practices the opinions of John Wilner
INCARN ASTROLOGY
http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologersmemorial/wilner.htm
aka SPIRITUAL BIRTH ASTROLOGY http://www.sbastro.com/software.htm :smile:
There is no single positive theory behind it. Its that an astrologer who takes a birth time doesn't take it literally, but notices that a person/client fits the sign adjacent to the one indicated by birth time and adjusts the chart to match by sign, then adjusts the degree to match the timeline of the person's life up to that point. Master astrologer John Willner had secret Ascendant formulas that he used to pinpoint the Asc, but I work without them. He also did work to clearly outline the physical and other traits of the Ascendant signs in his book The Rising Sign Problem.

Some astrologers reject what I'm saying (which is taken from Willner - I'm not sure I'd ever have figured it out myself) simply because a recorded birth time feels so solid, legitimizing something mystical as rooted in 'fact.' The truth of the matter is that even a good theory like the 'first breath' theories have to be tested. Willner essentially put it to the test and found that there is not a consistent interval (of zero or any other figure) between recorded birth times and times used to erect accurate natal horoscopes. The window of clock time in which to find the correct horoscope is from about 4-1/2 hours previous to certified birth time to about 40 minutes of clock time after it. The immediate problem is that this means work, and for the average consulting astrologer out there who is also authoring books with charts based purely on certified birth times does not want to go through all of their clients charts and verify each one. I have even seen one particular famous author who teaches astrology put up a chart on his myspace page that clearly shows the wrong Asc sign when viewed next to his picture. (If you're interested in this example, I'll identify him in a private message with link to pics, etc. It is not my intention to publicly discredit him or his practice). I personally value accuracy of interpretation over money or nicks in my reputation, so I adjust charts as needed. My focus is on the individual and making sure that their chart matches them as closely as possible. That is my responsibility to them.

There are many examples I could give of celebrities, etc, but what it really comes down to is watching your own chart and making the adjustment. About 50-60% of charts have the correct rising sign. Due to a variety of mixed reasons, the other 40-50% of charts have to be adjusted, usually to the sign previous to the one indicated by birth time.

There isn't a positive theory behind it that can be as clear and simple as the 'first breath' theory or theories. There are a number of things I can discuss that go into matters either related or not related to common astrological practice. There are Edgar Cayce readings on this. Cayce referred to common astrological practice as 'astrological survey,' when birth time is taken and a chart is cast without rectification or some type of verification procedure. But this is not all dependent on the Cayce readings. What it comes down to is astrologers paying attention that the charts they use for clients match the person. Some clearly do not. For example, most astrologers think of George W. Bush as Leo rising because of his published birth time. He is clearly not Leo rising. He is a classic example of Cancer rising down to his ovate shaped face. His personality is also reticent, bumbling words when nervous, insular and retreating from spontaneous interviews in the spotlight/media. This is not the behavior of a Leo rising person. Bush moved into the political arena in his father's administration as a leak controller. That is classic Saturnine-Cancer. GW Bush's correct Asc as verified by Willer is 26CAN19 with Saturn 26CAN30 in 1st.

At the very least even astrologers unwilling to depart from 'first breath' astrology should know better than to simple cast charts and start making pronouncements purely on a word of mouth birth time. As we've seen even in this group, this very often creates wrong charts because of memory inaccuracies. A birth document should be presented and the chart verified. In the absence of a certified birth time a full rectification should be done. A brief survey of rectifications by even famous astrologers (including Joan Quigley) shows that most of them are terrible at it.

My point is that YOU own your birth horoscope. It actually exists in True Original form IN THE GLANDS AND CELLS OF YOUR BODY. It is a product of your Intentions for Incarnating, Karma, etc. So be sure your astrologer (or you) get your chart lined up at the Asc so that it accurately reflects your body, personality and accurately times the cycles of your life. Most charts contain misleading information. I'd around 10-30% in most charts is misleading information, including items like Ascendant sign, house placements, aspects to Asc and MC, even Moon sign in some charts.

At the very least astrologers should double check 'cuspy' charts that say Asc 0-2*. I can't tell you how many such charts indicate the wrong sign. Probably around 70% of the time those 0-2* Ascendants are in the wrong sign.

What's the use of having a birth horoscope if it cannot accurately do what is astrology's no.1 feature, which is timing. Its a sophisticated timing mechanism. I'll take and accurate birth horoscope that can time my windows of opportunity to the day over a generic newspaper or column "horoscope" any time.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=235149#post235149
Thank you for PMing me with the above example...and for pointing me to the further information in John Willner's The Rising Sign Problem, sbastro.com and soul-map.com.

http://www.sbastro.com/faq.htm explains "Spiritual Astrology" as follows :-

...For any given location on the earth's surface there are a number of exact times that the spiritual birth can occur during any one day....Each presents a different astrological chart...prior to the physical birth...(when) the spirit enters the physical plane of existence...On average the spiritual birth is about one hour and forty minutes before the physical birth...(but)...The precise time is a matter of exact calculation. During the physical birth process the soul is nearby and observing...(and) enters the body of the recently born child sometime within the next 24 hours.

From this, my current understanding of the theory is :-

1. At any given location, there are a limited number of times in each day when a Soul can enter the physical plane...Thus, the "available" times for entry depend upon the chosen place of birth...(making the use of exact birthplace co-ordinates as important as using an exact birthtime.)

2. After entering the physical plane, the disembodied Soul observes/oversees the physical birth process and can choose to enter the body anytime within 24 hours of entering the physical plane.

3. Thus, the Soul has no control over the physical time of birth...but can control it's entry to the physical plane and (subsequently) into the body of the child.

4. Hence, if the natal chart is a "map" for the Soul to follow...it makes sense to use the map it has chosen, rather than the one provided by a physical birthtime over which it had no control.

5. To identify that chosen time, we must rectify the chart to arrive at a birthtime that exactly matches progressed/transitting astrological indicators to actual events......and the starting point for that process is to match the physical characteristics of the person to those relating to the possible Ascendant sign.

6. Rectifying the chart is particularly important for "predictive astrology", as small errors in the natal chart can result in large timing errors for the influence of progressions/transits......But in natal chart interpretations, the error in an unrectified chart has to be considerable before it significantly affects the astrological indicators.

7. Most astrologers would agree with you (Kannon) that charts must be rectified before they can be used reliably to make predictions...but my guess is that few would accept the effort involved in doing so is warranted for interpretations of natal charts having known/accurately recorded birthplace and birthtime data.
____________________​
In my opinion, the "spiritual astrology" theory makes sense...(and supports what I was once told by a clairvoyant about the circumstances of my own birth...in which the Soul had to enter the unborn child to keep it alive during birthing complications, rather than at a later time of it's own choosing).​

However, it seems to me that the theory leaves us with three valid birthcharts...the spiritual chart/time of entry to the physical plane (chosen by the Soul)...a "birth-of-the-body" event chart/time (imposed upon the Soul by the physical birthtime)....and a "body-acceptance" chart/time (when the Soul chooses to enter the new-born child).​

EJ​
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

I was happy to find this thread discussing the 2016 election.

What about Bernie Sanders? He's made quite a splash with fundraising, signing up volunteers and attendance at appearances.


I personally don't think the nomination is looking too good for Hillary.
So far, here's what I've noticed. On 11.8.2016 her progressed sun and merc are 12 cap, square her natal and prog nep 11-13 libra. Her prog. moon will be 14 libra, if that 8:02 am birthtime is correct. (this could also be triumph and realization of a dream, even with the tension of the square?) Sun and merc are also sesquiquadrate her Saturn and dsc.

Her Solar Return (SR) Saturn is conj. her natal merc, asc and South Node (SN). Her SR merc is conj. natal venus and square natal mars and pluto. How could that be helpful?

I surely welcome discussion-it's early in the game!
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claudette

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

Thanks, Kannon, for the info on John Willner. I'll have to read more. If MOST ascendants are in the previous sign, then that would mean I am a Taurus rising and I do not look like a Taurus in any way. And, my gem stellium Uranus Saturn Moon Venus and Merc would shift from 1st house to the 12th house. I don't know if I am ready for that! haha. An asc in gem does make sense for me.

maybenow

yeah, I know it is early but I am interested in watching HRC and Bernie Sanders through this process. This is going to be a very pivotal campaign I think.
 

cspencer

Banned
Re: Romney next US President?

Thanks, Kannon, for the info on John Willner. I'll have to read more. If MOST ascendants are in the previous sign, then that would mean...

...you're not practicing traditional astrology.

That's the same nonsense as sidereal vs tropical couched in some kind of spiritual astrology nonsense, which has no place on this forum.

I am a Taurus rising and I do not look like a Taurus in any way.

Not relevant.

Body shapes are complicated, being based on multiple factors.

And, my gem stellium Uranus Saturn Moon Venus and Merc would shift from 1st house to the 12th house. I don't know if I am ready for that! haha.

Well, it's bunk, so you don't have to worry about it.

Without accurate birth times, you're just flailing around.

In case anyone is interested, the hospital in which Hillary was born was shut down due to Medicare/Medicaid fraud and the records ultimately destroyed, so there's no way to get her birth time, unless she publishes her birth certificate (and she won't).

For the non-starters, Illinois hospitals often recorded birth times in Standard Time, even if it was Daylight Savings Time.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

Thanks, Kannon, for the info on John Willner. I'll have to read more. If MOST ascendants are in the previous sign, then that would mean I am a Taurus rising and I do not look like a Taurus in any way. And, my gem stellium UranusSaturn Moon Venus and Merc would shift from 1st house to the 12th house. I don't know if I am ready for that! haha. An asc in gem does make sense for me.

maybenow

yeah, I know it is early but I am interested in watching HRC and Bernie Sanders through this process. This is going to be a very pivotal campaign I think.
claudette remember this is the Traditional area of AW forum! so Uranus is irrelevant :smile:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

I was happy to find this thread discussing the 2016 election.

What about Bernie Sanders?
He's made quite a splash with fundraising, signing up volunteers and attendance at appearances.


I personally don't think the nomination is looking too good for Hillary.
So far, here's what I've noticed. On 11.8.2016 her progressed sun and merc are 12 cap, square her natal and prog nep 11-13 libra. Her prog. moon will be 14 libra, if that 8:02 am birthtime is correct. (this could also be triumph and realization of a dream, even with the tension of the square?) Sun and merc are also sesquiquadrate her Saturn and dsc.

Her Solar Return (SR) Saturn is conj. her natal merc, asc and South Node (SN). Her SR merc is conj. natal venus and square natal mars and pluto. How could that be helpful?

I surely welcome discussion-it's early in the game!
claudette re: Bernie Sanders :smile:

WHY IS THE PLANET HAPPY
THAT BERNIE SANDERS IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT?
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/04/30/why-planet-happy-bernie-sanders-running-president

'…...Bernie Sanders is a stand-up guy. Summer of 2011 he immediately set to work helping us block Keystone Pipeline: strategized, used his bully pulpit in Senate to spread the word, devoted staff time to pressuring State Department. Barack Obama was mostly silent about climate change his whole first term, and went all through 2012 campaign without discussing it. Hillary Clinton after initially saying she was "inclined" to approve Keystone has gone entirely mum on the most iconic environmental issue of our time. Bernie Sanders showed up in New York for People's Climate March and said straightforwardly in today's official announcement:.....'

'…."the peril of global climate change, with catastrophic consequences, is the central challenge of our times and our planet." said Bernie Sanders. But what makes that really remarkable is, it's not his defining issue. Bernie fits no one's stereotype of an enviro. He doesn't put on a spandex suit and go cross-country skiing; there's no evidence he meditates to reduce his stress levels. He focuses on working class Vermonters who can't afford health care and heating oil. His issue is inequality and unfairness, and it has been from the start. And for those who work mostly on environment, that's just the kind of ally we need....'

'….Because it's a constant reminder that this battle is for people, who need renewable energy so they can break the constant cycle of struggling to pay the fuel bill, and because it will be the source of good jobs. And because it will be one of the chief ways we break with the plutocrats, many of them in the fossil fuel industry, who are ruining both our atmosphere and our democracy. Make no mistake - Bernie Sanders isn't really running against Hillary Clinton. He's running against the Koch Brothers, and all that they represent: taken together they're the richest man on earth.....'
 

claudette

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

Jupasc, thanks for the article from commondreams- I am a subscriber but missed that important article from Bill McKibbon.

And yes, I DID forget this is the Traditional Astrology area: no outer planets, correct? Thank you for reminding me so graciously.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

Jupasc, thanks for the article from commondreams- I am a subscriber but missed that important article from Bill McKibbon.

And yes, I DID forget this is the Traditional Astrology area: no outer planets, correct? Thank you for reminding me so graciously.
Good to meet you in cyberspace claudette ~ it's been a while :smile:
I found this "cheat sheet" for 2016 election
but am wondering whether we have reliable times of birth for many (if any) of the runners
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/2016-election/384828/
 

claudette

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

Thanks for the great article from the Atlantic; it's very helpful.

I agree, we cannot be certain about birthtimes. I don't blame them; I wouldn't want my chart splashed across cyberspace for anyone to interpret! It's bad enough I have to deal with it everyday!!!

Any way you look at it, this is going to be a unique election, for many reasons. Let the fun begin!
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

Thanks for the great article from the Atlantic; it's very helpful.

I agree, we cannot be certain about birthtimes. I don't blame them; I wouldn't want my chart splashed across cyberspace for anyone to interpret! It's bad enough I have to deal with it everyday!!!


Any way you look at it, this is going to be a unique election, for many reasons. Let the fun begin!
our dr. farr often states that SUNRISE charts are helpful when time of birth is unknown https://lienhard4astrology.wordpress.com/sun-rising-chart/

another option:
ARTHYR CHADBOURNE recommends the SUNSET CHART
http://kaldu.com/sunsetchart.html

ANOTHER LIST OF RUNNERS
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/us/elections/2016-presidential-candidates.html?_r=0 :smile:
 

claudette

Well-known member
Re: Romney next US President?

This is one of the reasons I love astrology: there is always so much to learn. Now I have some homework to do!
 
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