kennedyrosewhith
Well-known member
Does that quote not say that the equinoxes and solstices play a hand in determining the signs? The 30 degree bit was my add-on, to further explain how 12 signs are formed.
Sidereal vs tropical
- Thread starter Yoi
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
TROPICAL
tropical astrology is based on the seasons as defined by the Equinoxes and Solstices
SIDEREAL
sidereal astrology is based on the constellations as determined by the equinoxes and solstices
sidereal astrology looks to the visible skies as they are currently in order to determine the area of sky in which particular planetary bodies are located
tropical astrology looks to a hypothetical unreal sky that once was visible approximately two thousand years ago but has since changed. That's why that two thousand year old sky is now hypothetical. Because it changed. Currently the observable Vernal or Spring Equinox occurs at 6 degrees Pisces
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kennedyrosewhith
Well-known member
And we wouldn't have starting dates for the seasons and signs without the solstices and equinoxes. Either way, there's your answer to what the signs of the tropical zodiac are related to- the seasons, solstices, and equinoxes.
My understanding is that the sidereal zodiac is determined by a star in the constellation of Aries. That star is considered the beginning, and then the rest of the constellations are made to be 30 degrees each, even when the constellation a sign corresponds to is not 30 degrees (which is almost every constellation, if not all of them). The solstices and equinoxes do not play a hand in this.
Have you thought about the questions I asked in post #138?
My understanding is that the sidereal zodiac is determined by a star in the constellation of Aries. That star is considered the beginning, and then the rest of the constellations are made to be 30 degrees each, even when the constellation a sign corresponds to is not 30 degrees (which is almost every constellation, if not all of them). The solstices and equinoxes do not play a hand in this.
Have you thought about the questions I asked in post #138?
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SniperBomber328
Well-known member
I sort of like where this is going. I too always questioned that. If the Sidereal Zodiac doesn't work based on the seasons/equinoxes, but rather on the exact precession of the constellations; then why is it that the Sun in Aries spends just as much time on Scorpio, even though (like kennedy has already statted) Scorpio is much smaller in degrees than Aries? The same could be said about any of the signs, with any planet, since none are all of the same degree(s).
I wonder what other factors lead to the precession. Hoping to get a plausible answer to this.
I wonder what other factors lead to the precession. Hoping to get a plausible answer to this.
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Rebel Uranian
Well-known member
If sidereal astrology were truly sidereal, then it would use all zodiacal constellations, not just longitude divisions.
Shanti
Well-known member
Sidereal whole sign houses Chart of Noel Tyl the wellknown astrologer.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Tyl,_Noel
"American professional astrologer, author, international lecturer, publisher and editor who has authored 23 books and edited 10 others. Tyl is the recipient of the Regulus Award for Professional Image, recognizing astrology at work in business and pubic community, 1998. He is known and respected as a lecturer in almost every major city in the U.S. and Europe, throughout a total of 16 countries. He is the Director-Principal at MilleyDome/ Johannesburg, the Noel Tyl Learning Centre for Astrology and New Age Exploration under construction in South Africa".
***Sidereal Gemini ascendent is good for writing and intellectual activities.
***Strongest dominant planet is sidereal angular Jupiter in own sign sagittarius which creates the teacher, lecturer knowledgeable person.
Also sun in sagittarius with jupiter and North Node. So Sagittarius/Jupiter and 9th house is dominant.
Which seems to fit with his life pattern of consulting, teaching and giving advice as the wise man.
***Moon in leo in 3rd house is good for writing and performing which he did as an early career as Opera singer.
***Saturn in own sign with venus in 9th house of publishing.
***T-square Pluto-Mercury-Mars
This creates mental power and some obsession with his own ideas which he express forcefully to others in his many books.
Mars is focal planet in 5th house libra which creates strong urge to express oneself creative in a big way (5th).
***10th ruler Jupiter in 7th in own sign give interaction with clients and other persons in his consulting work.
Below his sidereal chart (lahiri ayanamsha from astro.com)
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Tyl,_Noel
"American professional astrologer, author, international lecturer, publisher and editor who has authored 23 books and edited 10 others. Tyl is the recipient of the Regulus Award for Professional Image, recognizing astrology at work in business and pubic community, 1998. He is known and respected as a lecturer in almost every major city in the U.S. and Europe, throughout a total of 16 countries. He is the Director-Principal at MilleyDome/ Johannesburg, the Noel Tyl Learning Centre for Astrology and New Age Exploration under construction in South Africa".
***Sidereal Gemini ascendent is good for writing and intellectual activities.
***Strongest dominant planet is sidereal angular Jupiter in own sign sagittarius which creates the teacher, lecturer knowledgeable person.
Also sun in sagittarius with jupiter and North Node. So Sagittarius/Jupiter and 9th house is dominant.
Which seems to fit with his life pattern of consulting, teaching and giving advice as the wise man.
***Moon in leo in 3rd house is good for writing and performing which he did as an early career as Opera singer.
***Saturn in own sign with venus in 9th house of publishing.
***T-square Pluto-Mercury-Mars
This creates mental power and some obsession with his own ideas which he express forcefully to others in his many books.
Mars is focal planet in 5th house libra which creates strong urge to express oneself creative in a big way (5th).
***10th ruler Jupiter in 7th in own sign give interaction with clients and other persons in his consulting work.
Below his sidereal chart (lahiri ayanamsha from astro.com)
Attachments
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
That is a great description of the Tropical Zodiac as it was two thousand years ago. Two thousand years ago the Tropical Zodiac was in sync with the constellation of Aries in the sky. BUT the reality is that due to precession, the Vernal Point IS NOT FIXED but drifts gradually westward due to precession. After two thousand years of westward drifting of the Vernal Point, the Tropical Zodiac has been proved to be incorrect in assuming that the sun ALWAYS is on the horizon at precisely 0[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT]Aries on the first day of Spring.
It is the tropical zodiac that is PERMANENTLY LINKED TO THE IDEA OF 'ARIES' BUT NOT TO THE CONSTELLATION OF ARIES and it is the Tropical Zodiac that is determined by the 'seasonal sign' Aries
That's because two thousand years ago at the Vernal or Spring Equinox the CONSTELLATION OF ARIES was the background to the sun on the horizon.
But time has passed and after two thousand years - due to precession of the Equinoxes - currently at the Vernal or Spring Equinox the CONSTELLATION OF PISCES is now the background to the sun on the horizon and your Sidereal Astrology natal chart illustrates that fact.
The 'Tropical Zodiac' symbolically - i.e. NOT REALLY - commences at 0[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT]Aries and your Tropical astrology natal chart illustrates that symbolism
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kennedyrosewhith
Well-known member
In the sidereal chart, does the exact degree the Sun is at in Pisces match the degree it's in if you actually look up into the sky? Does it continue to match throughout the year? Or is it just symbolically at 29 degrees of a sign/constellation?
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
It's easy! I encourage you to observe the skies for yourself! Only then shall you be certain regarding this question kennedyrosewhith
kennedyrosewhith
Well-known member
It's night time. I kinda thought you might know, but i guess not...
tsmall
Premium Member
kennedyrosewhith
Well-known member
Oh hey, thanks for the link! I was trying to find something similar, but got sidetracked by a new ipod app, haha. The link isn't exactly what i was looking for, but it's still pretty cool.
After that, i was digging around trying to figure out where the Sun currently is without having to look in the sky, and found this website:
http://www.glenn.freehomepage.com/writings/sidereal/
It's a very interesting read. If you scroll down, there's a table that shows how many stars of a constellation fit within both the sidereal and tropical boundaries for the corresponding sign. Sidereal wins by a landslide, although the author does say that those figures only hold true if you go by the stars themselves, NOT the astronomical boundaries. So it's still unknown if sidereal is still accurate to astronomy. I think the following quote from that page sums up the issue pretty nicely:
I don't know about you all, but i think i agree.
Edit: I suppose now my question is if one *could* be more reliable, but there's already another thread for that!
After that, i was digging around trying to figure out where the Sun currently is without having to look in the sky, and found this website:
http://www.glenn.freehomepage.com/writings/sidereal/
It's a very interesting read. If you scroll down, there's a table that shows how many stars of a constellation fit within both the sidereal and tropical boundaries for the corresponding sign. Sidereal wins by a landslide, although the author does say that those figures only hold true if you go by the stars themselves, NOT the astronomical boundaries. So it's still unknown if sidereal is still accurate to astronomy. I think the following quote from that page sums up the issue pretty nicely:
I don't know about you all, but i think i agree.
Edit: I suppose now my question is if one *could* be more reliable, but there's already another thread for that!
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
A clear night is the optimum time to view the constellations (the sun's brilliant light makes them invisible during daytime)
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Having said that, there are more issues with tropical astrology that have been highlighted by dr. farr just recently but on another thread
kennedyrosewhith
Well-known member
The Sun is below the horizon, so it's pretty impossible for me to even guess at where it is by looking at the sky.
The northern/southern hemisphere issue is one that I'm not sure about myself. But I don't know anyone who lives in the southern hemisphere, nor have I tried to find astrologers specifically from that hemisphere, so I don't know how astrology plays out for them.
So perhaps it's incorrect to say that the signs = the seasons. But who was saying that? I do remember reading somewhere, though, that planetary rulerships were determined in part by the seasons. Or rather, the seasons were used to help determine planetary rulerships. Now if I'm remembering that correctly I don't know, and how much of a hand the seasons played I don't know either.
Either way, both zodiacs have their issues. What is it, 79% of the stars of the constellations fall within the bounds of the sidereal signs? What about the remaining 21% that don't? What about the constellations where over 40% of the stars fall outside of the bounds of the sidereal signs?
The northern/southern hemisphere issue is one that I'm not sure about myself. But I don't know anyone who lives in the southern hemisphere, nor have I tried to find astrologers specifically from that hemisphere, so I don't know how astrology plays out for them.
So perhaps it's incorrect to say that the signs = the seasons. But who was saying that? I do remember reading somewhere, though, that planetary rulerships were determined in part by the seasons. Or rather, the seasons were used to help determine planetary rulerships. Now if I'm remembering that correctly I don't know, and how much of a hand the seasons played I don't know either.
Either way, both zodiacs have their issues. What is it, 79% of the stars of the constellations fall within the bounds of the sidereal signs? What about the remaining 21% that don't? What about the constellations where over 40% of the stars fall outside of the bounds of the sidereal signs?
It comes down to the time correction (ayanamsa) again, and determining which is the fiducal star of the given zodiacal constellation (which, relative to the "beginning of Aries", is-or at least has been-a matter of much discussion) In a few experiments I have done using a telescope, it seems that Saturn was further along in the starry constellation of Virgo, recently, than where Lahiri and Fagan-Bradley time corrections would have placed it; same in a few experiments I did with Jupiter and Venus; they have been about (approximately) 5 degrees of arc more advanced than where these ayanamsa actually place them (and right about where they should be using the almost unheard of Hipparchus and completely unheard of Alycone/Krittika ayanamsa time corrections)
BUT: these little experiments of mine are by no means conclusive, at best they are slightly suggestive; AND, I am a tropicalist through and through, but as "fixed star Farr" I know how important stars are, and how connections to starry constellations can be important modfying factors; AND I want to say that I am not knocking the most widely used Vedic ayanamsa, the Lahiri-indeed, as an eclectic with great admirtion of jyotish, when I delineate a sidereal Vedic chart I myself use the Lahiri ayanamsa for the chart.
Still, there are some truths hidden here among all of these relative outlooks; but I am convinced we can use either the tropical or sidereal models-as whole system models-and obtain reliable, consistent results both in analysis and in predictions IF we advance ourselves through study and application, to the expert level in either-or both-matrix systems...
BUT: these little experiments of mine are by no means conclusive, at best they are slightly suggestive; AND, I am a tropicalist through and through, but as "fixed star Farr" I know how important stars are, and how connections to starry constellations can be important modfying factors; AND I want to say that I am not knocking the most widely used Vedic ayanamsa, the Lahiri-indeed, as an eclectic with great admirtion of jyotish, when I delineate a sidereal Vedic chart I myself use the Lahiri ayanamsa for the chart.
Still, there are some truths hidden here among all of these relative outlooks; but I am convinced we can use either the tropical or sidereal models-as whole system models-and obtain reliable, consistent results both in analysis and in predictions IF we advance ourselves through study and application, to the expert level in either-or both-matrix systems...
Shanti
Well-known member
I agree with ever wise Farr in this respect.
For fairness I can say there is today a small falang of jyotish practioners who are beginning to use tropical positions with jyotish terminology.
Astrology is more flexible system than we sometimes get to believe in these theads. Don't know what to make of it.
Is it the scientific conclusions today that more and more seems to imply that in experimentation the result is depending on the consiousness witnessing the process in action.
I don't know. But as long as people find satisfaction and good result with what they are doing I'm happy lol...Even though fierce discussions on the net are part of the divine 'Lila' (play of consiousness).
For fairness I can say there is today a small falang of jyotish practioners who are beginning to use tropical positions with jyotish terminology.
Astrology is more flexible system than we sometimes get to believe in these theads. Don't know what to make of it.
Is it the scientific conclusions today that more and more seems to imply that in experimentation the result is depending on the consiousness witnessing the process in action.
I don't know. But as long as people find satisfaction and good result with what they are doing I'm happy lol...Even though fierce discussions on the net are part of the divine 'Lila' (play of consiousness).
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Shanti
Well-known member
Obama's sidereal chart (Lahiri)
Only with the sideral whole sign houses do we see an angular strong Saturn in 1st house in own sign capricorn.
This give according to jyotish scriptures the 'Sasha yoga'.
This is said to give excellent executing talents. Doing hard work and managerial position.
(In old scriptures it is said "Being a leader of a small village")
Note also Obama's thin physical bodytype with strong saturn influencing first house ( body).
I have heard so many arguments in other threads about Obama where anti obama opinionated people point to the weak 12th house saturn and says this give rise to "lack of responsibilites and weakness".
On the contrary Obama have been since childhood highly disciplined and taking step by step aproaches to reach his saturnan and capricorn sidereal ascendents ambitions. He is not sentimal. he does the work even if it's dirty and not appreciated.
Jupiter in first is giving interest in law.
Sun have moved to sidereal cancer instead of tropical leo which may don't make sense from sidereal wiew. But in compensation he is given a sidereal stellium in Leo.
Moon is the perhaps strongest planet, in exaltation, in the fortunate 5th house and aspected by jupiter.
This give popularity in the public generally.
(It was also in the period of Jupiter-Moon he won presidency in the 2008 year.)
Moon is ruler of his 7th house and the strength of moon give nice marriage and nice female children ( Moon in 5th).
His current difficulties is due to subperiods of mars and node in the challenging 8th house during his actual presidency time.
Transits for 20 january 2009 swearing presidency oath:
Tr JU con JU (period planet) in First house, not 12th as in other systems.
Tr SU con JU (triggering jupiter transit this actual day of being president.
Sec prog ( prog. angles in solar arc in Right Ascension method)
P ASC trine SU ( leadership )
P MOON con ASC (Public events..new beginning)
Sidereal chart (lahiri) from astro.com
Only with the sideral whole sign houses do we see an angular strong Saturn in 1st house in own sign capricorn.
This give according to jyotish scriptures the 'Sasha yoga'.
This is said to give excellent executing talents. Doing hard work and managerial position.
(In old scriptures it is said "Being a leader of a small village")
Note also Obama's thin physical bodytype with strong saturn influencing first house ( body).
I have heard so many arguments in other threads about Obama where anti obama opinionated people point to the weak 12th house saturn and says this give rise to "lack of responsibilites and weakness".
On the contrary Obama have been since childhood highly disciplined and taking step by step aproaches to reach his saturnan and capricorn sidereal ascendents ambitions. He is not sentimal. he does the work even if it's dirty and not appreciated.
Jupiter in first is giving interest in law.
Sun have moved to sidereal cancer instead of tropical leo which may don't make sense from sidereal wiew. But in compensation he is given a sidereal stellium in Leo.
Moon is the perhaps strongest planet, in exaltation, in the fortunate 5th house and aspected by jupiter.
This give popularity in the public generally.
(It was also in the period of Jupiter-Moon he won presidency in the 2008 year.)
Moon is ruler of his 7th house and the strength of moon give nice marriage and nice female children ( Moon in 5th).
His current difficulties is due to subperiods of mars and node in the challenging 8th house during his actual presidency time.
Transits for 20 january 2009 swearing presidency oath:
Tr JU con JU (period planet) in First house, not 12th as in other systems.
Tr SU con JU (triggering jupiter transit this actual day of being president.
Sec prog ( prog. angles in solar arc in Right Ascension method)
P ASC trine SU ( leadership )
P MOON con ASC (Public events..new beginning)
Sidereal chart (lahiri) from astro.com
Attachments
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Shanti
Well-known member
Ok last chart I think....
Vincent Van Gogh
Genious artist, mentally ill and preacher.
*** Venus
planet of art is strong in exaltation sign for venus pisces.
In 10th house of profession. Venus rules 5th house of creativity.
*** Moon
planet of emotions and inner psychology is in 28.55 Scorpio.
Thus moon is the weakest planet in chart in it's debilitation sign scorpio.
Telling it's tale of suicide at mental institution.
(In his tropical chart moon is in sagittarius).
*** Jupiter
Van Gogh was working as a self sacrifying priest during a period before he
turned to the arts.
Note jupiter in angular house in own sign sagittarius.
Note his Sun are not in tropical aries anymore, but in Pisces, the sign of inspiration and did make him an idealistic dreamer.
His ascendent ruler Mercury is in Aries conjunct pluto telling of an intensive character with some obsessive ideas that together with the scorpio Moon contrbuted to his mental illness.
Vincent Van Gogh
Genious artist, mentally ill and preacher.
*** Venus
planet of art is strong in exaltation sign for venus pisces.
In 10th house of profession. Venus rules 5th house of creativity.
*** Moon
planet of emotions and inner psychology is in 28.55 Scorpio.
Thus moon is the weakest planet in chart in it's debilitation sign scorpio.
Telling it's tale of suicide at mental institution.
(In his tropical chart moon is in sagittarius).
*** Jupiter
Van Gogh was working as a self sacrifying priest during a period before he
turned to the arts.
Note jupiter in angular house in own sign sagittarius.
Note his Sun are not in tropical aries anymore, but in Pisces, the sign of inspiration and did make him an idealistic dreamer.
His ascendent ruler Mercury is in Aries conjunct pluto telling of an intensive character with some obsessive ideas that together with the scorpio Moon contrbuted to his mental illness.
