Sun-Saturn hard aspects- Explain Yourself!

Knight said:

I had a good relation with my father all life long, not so close but he was there when I needed him, more like a teacher, like a guru but not on a personal level. My mother is severe and restrictive.

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That sounds quite interesting to me. From I've seen and read, Sun-Saturn hard aspects indicate a negative/destructive paternal influence or a complete absence of the father which damages the natural confidence of the individual, so it seems strange that the oppression came from your mother instead of your father.
Perhaps the explanation is that Sun-Saturn hard aspects indeed show oppression and restriction but it works more like this: Oppression will be present and the father seems the most usual route that this energy will take, but it could also reach you through the mother or other circumstances in your environment.
Just like in the opposite case: there are children with Sun Trine Saturn who grow up without their father or they have never even met him, but they are not damaged by his absence or been through all the hardship that a Saturn Square indicates. Astrology is always correct, but how each aspect will manifest itself is not always possible to predict with accuracy.

OrcinusOrca said:

I've never had a close relationship with my dad.

Whenever we've been together alone we only ever manage to discuss small talk: sport, politics, trivial things.

My dad was pretty tough/strict with me early in my childhood. Whenever he needed to punish me he'd physically hit me. Nothing that would be considered out of the ordinary at the time though. However when I was about 12 he tried to physically punish me like he'd usually do and I fought back, punching him in the face a few times, which hurt him quite a bit. After that point he never physically attempted to punish me ever again.

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Goodness! I have sun conjunct saturn, pretty wide, sun 29 degrees cancer, saturn 5 degrees leo, but these things exactly apply to me.

Like you I hit back at my dad around the age of 12, but I'm female, so I didn't manage to punch him in the face or anything. He just hit back even harder. But he didn't do it again. I always assumed it was because he was an aries and they are famed for losing their tempers and aggression, but perhaps it was saturn.

Like a few other people on here my dad lost his dad young, around 12 I believe. And he lost his mum around 2. So he was brought up by his older sisters and grandmother and must have faced some emotional deprivation.

He was extremely strict all my life. Even now almost the only time he talks to me is to tell me to do something. Each time he starts to speak I get expectant that he is going to take an interest in me but each time I am disappointed.

He did display the positive side of saturn. He was very ambitious and hardworking and provided a good home and standard of living for me, starting completely from nothing. But his work meant that he worked evenings and Saturdays, and on Sundays he would do work in the garden, so there was almost never any time to do things with me.

An undesirable result of this, that I am working on, is that I fall for men who are unavailable, either through work or other relationships, because I am so used to wanting a connection with someone whose attention is on something that is more important to them than me.

I completely agree that saturn aspecting the sun describes the relationship with the father and men in general.

Unlike some other people on this thread I wouldn't say that my father is very conservative. I also have sun square uranus and sextile jupiter. So in some ways my father is very progressive, having travelled a lot and marrying someone from a different country and culture to the one he was brought up in. He is quite closed minded about astrology though.

Another point that someone mentioned about being popular with authority figures rings true for me. Bosses usually see me as someone who is willing to accept hard work and willing to accept the rules, that is until my sun-uranus aspect gets fed up and walks out, to my detriment.

So, in my experience, saturn aspects (& admittedly in my case it is a conjunction not a square or opposition) do contain all these difficulties but at the same time the positive attributes of saturn - discipline, structure, had-work, self-sacrifice. And they can be counterbalanced by the other aspects that the sun makes. I know that astrologers and astrology students already know this, but we can forget the other planets when we are focussing on just one aspect.

Knight said:

I have Sun in Pisces (2nd house) opposite Saturn Rx in Virgo (8th house) and Saturn is my Capi ascendant ruler. in the same time Neptun in 11th (sagit) is in square with both sun and saturn.
Saturn is also trine Ascendant, square Neptune and sextile Uranus.(I attach my chart)

I had a good relation with my father all life long, not so close but he was there when I needed him, more like a teacher, like a guru but not on a personal level. My mother is severe and restrictive.

But the Sun-Saturn opposition I feel more like a low self-esteem, some fear to say things (for example I feel sometimes is better to shut up to my job in order to keep my job, in long run) or let's say like things that are not satisfactory from the first, after coming again and insisting, I do succeed, but NEVER from the first try.

what do you think about this pattern ?
thanks

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I can see from the picture of your chart that there is an aspect between saturn and the moon (represented by the pale blue line). I think this represents a bi-quintile, 144 degrees, I'm not very familiar with how they affect us, but it is supposed to be minor and positive. Perhaps 'positive' in terms of aspects means that we are able to integrate those things into our lives easily, unlike squares in which we have to struggle to combine the 2 energies. So I would say that it is the aspect between your moon and saturn that makes your mother this way. & perhaps for you the opposition, which is not considered as friction-causing as the square, has worked out quite positively with regards to your father.

tobby said:

That sounds quite interesting to me. From I've seen and read, Sun-Saturn hard aspects indicate a negative/destructive paternal influence or a complete absence of the father which damages the natural confidence of the individual, so it seems strange that the oppression came from your mother instead of your father.
Perhaps the explanation is that Sun-Saturn hard aspects indeed show oppression and restriction but it works more like this: Oppression will be present and the father seems the most usual route that this energy takes, but it could also reach you through the mother or other circumstances in your environment.
Just like in the opposite case: there are children with Sun Trine Saturn who grow up without their father or they have never even met him, but they are not damaged by his absence or been through all the hardship that a Saturn Square indicates. Astrology is always correct, but how each aspect will manifest itself is not always possible to predict with accuracy.

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I agree saturn-sun hard aspects and the conjunction indicate an oppressive or absent father, that has been my experience. But in this case Knight also has an aspect between his moon and saturn, which explains his relationship with his mother.
Plus the aspect between his sun and saturn is an opposition, which has the potential for positive effects as well as negative.

P.S. I'm assuming Knight is male just because traditionally most knights were, but there's no reason why they have to be

Some of the signs of Sun-Saturn hard aspects don't ring true for me. My father wasn't authoritarian. He was absent at work a lot and had trouble relating emotionally as many men do, but this was all. Other children at that age had much worse experiences with their fathers (harsh discipline, abandonment, etc.) without having any Sun-Saturn hard aspects. I also feel sometimes like many things have been handed to me all too easily, like it should be harder somehow and I just got lucky and am anticipating this lucky break to end.

What I think might be a consequence of Sun-Saturn square is sometimes I get the impression that I create or build something as part of my personal vision, exercise my creative power (Sun), and then someone comes into my life and either destroys it or severely blocks further progress, and often this is a person who has authority over me (Saturn). So there is constant undermining and hampering of my own efforts that arrives from the sidelines. It's not always stems from conflict of interests. Sometimes the person does this by pure mistake. I'm not very hardworking, but I can imagine for someone who works a lot to be cut down or blocked like this could cause some resentment, anger, and bitterness, and conflict/fighting against the person or force that stopped them or cut them down. I either change direction and do something else instead, but this makes me scattered in my progress. Or I have to rebuild and recreate again, which makes it feel like I have to do double the work.

The Sun and Saturn are truly square or orthogonal to one another in this sense. You can imagine the Sun is progressing up and then something comes from the side, at 90 degree angle, and hits it stopping and disorienting it in the progress.

It's also have been said that by others that I am not afraid of direct conflict (despite having Mars in Cancer) and that I have some abrasive qualities. I'm also not too shy being seen in negative light by others. Though some of this may be due to my Sun-Pluto square.


From what I've talked to people with Sun-Saturn opposition it's a very different story from the Sun-Saturn square aspect. It's a different dynamic. There is more of all-or-nothing effect - either the person is progressing forward full steam, or they feel completely defeated. One person with this aspect has told me that life always seems to be showering her with problems and challenges. I sometimes think that it's not life that showing her with problems - it is her noticing these and giving them her full attention. But she has accomplished and overcome a lot in her life as a result, even though she says that she feels very tired from it all and wants to go into defeatist mode.

Some signs of Sun-Saturn square that I've definitely felt:

* limits to creating identity and capacity to express yourself ... once you have begun to mold yourself into a strong and focused personality, there is a temptation to develop a persona that exemplifies the negative characteristics associated with Saturn—authoritarianism, rigidity, criticalness, coldness and harshness.
* your identity is hard on the exterior, but hollow on the inside ... you are forever afraid that someone or something will penetrate through your defenses and expose you as weak and a failure ... therefore, you never expose your true self to another; in fact, it is doubtful whether you yourself have any idea of your real self.
* all dross and illusion about the self is knocked away ... you learn, by being deprived of the various props and attachments that most people form their identities around, the true nature of the self. -- [i've noticed that it's more difficult for me to delude myself than for some others which is a plus]
* the square sometimes symbolizes the phenomenon of being blindsided ... you may also be blindsided by authority, your failure to follow rules that were known or unknown to you or your lack of discipline ... your plans may fall apart or not lead where desired
* you may rebel against structure, discipline, work and authority ... problems with organization


I haven't experienced but this is also interesting. I don't handle conflict very well, but this may also be due to weak Mars or Sun-Pluto square, hard for me to tell how much of this would be attributed to the Sun-Saturn square.

If you feel your defenses being attacked, you fight back bitterly and ruthlessly, or you retreat to a more defensible psychological position. If you have not dealt positively with this aspect, you will tend to display either harsh aggressiveness or depression and withdrawal. If your defenses are ever penetrated, if the facade of your persona is torn away, as may indeed be your fate, then you may totally break down and collapse as a personality. All of the self-pity, all of the fear, all of the resentment, all of the self-doubt or even self-hatred that has been suppressed behind the facade that you have built up as a protective wall will erupt, and you descend into your own private Hell. If you are able to recover from the experience of having your defenses violated, it will usually be through some sudden and harsh reaction.

Any aspect can be manifested as internal or external forces in your case more toward the internal expression.

Do you have a retrograde Saturn or if it aspect or ruled by retrograde planet?

poyi said:

Do you have a retrograde Saturn or if it aspect or ruled by retrograde planet?

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if you're asking me then no, my saturn isn't R

actio said:

if you're asking me then no, my saturn isn't R

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Actio

Any aspect with retrograde or ruled by retrograde planet? What is the sign of your Saturn? I am curious on the manifestation seem to be most inwardly or expressed from internal force.

Ibn Ezra wrote, "...the exaltation of Saturn is 21º Libra. Enoch said that the exaltation of Saturn is two degrees from the degrees that are in opposition to the exaltation of the Sun, lest great harm befall the Sun."
Apparently Lilly expounded on this concept suggesting that any planet that is signified within 2 degrees of the opposition of the Sun (meaning Saturn) will be disrupted and fall in ruin! 2 degrees from Saturn is the optimal degree for Saturn to be at his peak destructive self!!

As a general concept, whatever planet Saturn touches via conjunction, he starves out.

Heh, I have 0º Libra Jupiter conjunct 3º Libra Saturn but it's separated by 3 degrees so my Jupiter is ok At least Saturn actually trines my Sun so I'm ok...

poyi said:

Actio

Any aspect with retrograde or ruled by retrograde planet? What is the sign of your Saturn? I am curious on the manifestation seem to be most inwardly or expressed from internal force.

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My Saturn forms aspects to my Sun and Mercury but none of them are retrograde.