Saturn the Greater Malefic Off-topic

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
There is debate in science on whether it can give answers to ethical problems. If it can, you can apply to that to everything. Some see that as ''scientism'' and oppose it, others like the Dalai Lama embrace it. At his lectures, he frequently alludes to studies on mental health that show that compassion and meditation have scientifically proven health benefits. Material benefits.

I found that it's the best way to open people's minds to meditation. Strictly speak about the benefits to mental health and overall well-being. With scientific proof of course.
 

petosiris

Banned
What do you mean by you were apart of it? Did you publicly (name and face) oppose him and his ideas of a humanistic astrology?

http://cura.free.fr/quinq/01gfcor.html
I found this article of his from a quick search. He does raise some heavy hitting questions, and I saw some of my own musings in this article, and I even hypothesized along similar lines of his astrological mechanism of the significant presentation of the symbol to consciousness in a thread on house systems awhile back on the forum.

You say you're looking into it. Do you found his ideas of humanistic astrology plausible?

No, I just meant the fascination amongst the community of his work. Some believe he just defended the acausal model, when he really is arguing for something different. My criticism of that would be that he is doing it very subtly, hence the misunderstanding (maybe from my part).

It depends on what you mean.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Let me specify.

Alright, you mentioned this when you were speaking about Geoffrey Cornelius' views of astrology - My thoughts on this are a bit complicated. I prefer naturalistic explanations that go along the route of inspiration.


Here is what he stated in that article I posted:

I do not underestimate the fact that these are difficult arguments for some of my fellow astrologers to accept. I would like to re-focus on the main theme of this discussion, and draw it to a conclusion, by putting again the main question with the help of a diagram . I have suggested that some part of the phenomenon of astrology belongs to the natural world and is in principle amenable to scientific investigation. Nevertheless, the main part of what we do is the interpretation of symbols to arrive at particular inferences and judgments, whether about character or about events in life. And this practice is divination, not science. If we believe that astrology is about science, either in the modern materialist sense, or in the more subtle spiritual-scientific sense of the medieval model given by Aristotle, then we will find our terminology and discussion below the dividing line on the diagram. Either type of science, medieval or modern, will actually take us to an energy model of astrology, perhaps involving planetary rays, and some type of causation (however "spiritual"), or a pseudo-causation disguised (and misunderstood) as synchronicity.

This diagram illustrates the divide between sign (or "symbol") and cause. It is my belief that from the time of Greek astrology our classical tradition has never successfully distinguished these two possibilities, and has perpetually confused them. St. Augustine, perhaps the most formidable and perceptive of all of our opponents, saw our dilemma clearly. He knew pagan practices and studied astrology in his youth. In his great attack on our art, he observed that astrologers (when it suits them) will say, "Mars caused the action of violence in that man," and, if then pressed on that point, they will say "Mars was a symbol," but catch them another moment and they're back to talking as if Mars caused the thing. Augustine said that the astrologers' language always slipped and was never clear between this causation versus symbolizing process. Yes, we actually do rely on a causal model - especially with our classical medieval model - and because it depends on objective time, clock time, it depends on this illusion of objectivity to secure it. Astrology of this kind is a form of empirical observation, and the significance derived appears to be a theoretical significance with the astrologer as an observer. This is science. The correct procedure in reading this is a type of logical inference from symbols. This is the model of Greek, Roman, and Arabic astrology, and, ultimately, it cannot disengage astrology from fatalism.

Humanistic astrology in the 20th century - a noble project - has attempted to disengage the classical model from fatalism by saying that the birth chart shows potential, rather than actuality. It makes that distinction in order to escape the old problem. If you're born, says this school of thought, with a very powerful Saturn, you have the potential for certain experiences of a Saturnine nature. Remember, however, that this is a velvet glove fatalism because you're still fated to have been born with a Saturn potential! It hasn't actually escaped the problem.

A much more radical move is needed: to recognize that the very structure of what we do in interpreting horoscopes depends not upon the influence of the heavens upon the seed, nor upon some objective "time-quality" stamped out by the heavens, not even by synchronistic co-occurrence in objective time. It depends on the significant presentation of the symbol to consciousness.[5] The moment doesn't determine significance for us - we assign significance to the moment. Then we see that astrology is about chaotic and irrational signs and omens of things that are unplanned and can't be predicted - if and when a sign occurs, we read it. There is no technique to make signs and omens occur, but there is a ritual we make to invite the gods and spirits, and create the space wherein their sign may occur - the sacred space of the horoscope. Then we just see what comes up. The time of astrology is no longer Aristotelian objective time. It is the time assigned, given by the intentionality of consciousness, and that which shows in response comes by grace or providence or chance.

If I'm reading him correctly, and understanding your meaning, I see where there are points of agreement between you and him, at least as far as the mechanism of astrology is concerned. Is this close to the truth?

His view of astrology as potentialities is very modern, and I doubt you agree with him there.
 

petosiris

Banned
If I'm reading him correctly, and understanding your meaning, I see where there are points of agreement between you and him, at least as far as the mechanism of astrology is concerned. Is this close to the truth?

He raises valid objections, but no I don't agree with him.

His view of astrology as potentialities is very modern, and I doubt you agree with him there.

It is and I don't. The essential premise of astrology is lost, you get something different by abandoning causation. The way I see it, you get a causation of subjectivity and cognitive biases.
 
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Oddity

Well-known member
I read Cornelius's book years ago, don't have a copy handy. Do any of you?

I remember intensely disliking it. Somewhere around the start of the book, he talks about how someone had come to him because another astrologer had interpreted a horary and said the person was going to die soon - something like that?

Cornelius then re-writes the judgement, and that act apparently 'nullifies' the threat of death.

Or am I misremembering it?

There are all kinds of bad astrologers out there, and I've cleaned up situations like that myself, but if the death is staring at you from the chart, you aren't going to prevent it by telling the person it isn't.

The implication that you can makes astrology a charade.
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
What's the role of Saturn in Buddhism anyway? I heard of numerous theories on Saturn is the planet of Judaism. Each major religion in the world has a ruler planet and Buddha means the planet Mercury in Sanskrit, the ancestral language of Hindi and Indian languages. For Islam, it has the Moon and Venus. For Christianity, it is the sun and Jupiter. And I supposed Mars for European paganism, esp. of Celts, Scandinavia (the Germanic peoples have Thor), Roman Empire and Ancient Greece. Modern astrologers include Uranus as the ruler planet of Aquarius already ruled by Saturn, I guess Judaism is Uranian. And does Neptune equally influence Buddhism and Pluto does the same in European paganism?
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
What's the role of Saturn in Buddhism anyway?

I heard of numerous theories on Saturn is the planet of Judaism.


Each major religion in the world has a ruler planet and Buddha means the planet Mercury in Sanskrit, the ancestral language of Hindi and Indian languages. For Islam, it has the Moon and Venus. For Christianity, it is the sun and Jupiter. And I supposed Mars for European paganism, esp. of Celts, Scandinavia (the Germanic peoples have Thor), Roman Empire and Ancient Greece. Modern astrologers include Uranus as the ruler planet of Aquarius already ruled by Saturn, I guess Judaism is Uranian. And does Neptune equally influence Buddhism and Pluto does the same in European paganism?


satan-santa.jpg







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petosiris

Banned
I read Cornelius's book years ago, don't have a copy handy. Do any of you?

I remember intensely disliking it. Somewhere around the start of the book, he talks about how someone had come to him because another astrologer had interpreted a horary and said the person was going to die soon - something like that?

Cornelius then re-writes the judgement, and that act apparently 'nullifies' the threat of death.

Or am I misremembering it?

There are all kinds of bad astrologers out there, and I've cleaned up situations like that myself, but if the death is staring at you from the chart, you aren't going to prevent it by telling the person it isn't.

The implication that you can makes astrology a charade.

I don't see how one can oppose such thinking, either astrology is physical or it is bs, and we can play magicians.
 

SunConjunctUranus

Well-known member
Random thought,

How can ancient Greek forecasted nativities without exact birth time?

Valens have the method for rectification however it is very succinct way.
 

SunConjunctUranus

Well-known member
Jupiter,

Sorry if my massage being understood. I mean Valens clients would be just tell him the birth date, I'm sure birth time was not in the birth certificates at the time. What do you thought on this?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Jupiter,
Sorry if my massage being understood.

I mean Valens clients would be just tell him the birth date, I'm sure birth time
was not in the birth certificates at the time.
What do you thought on this?
At that time there were no birth certificates as we know them today :smile:
Valens clients would have been wealthy as well
since only the wealthy could afford to consult an astrologer of Valens ability
 
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