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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #26  
Unread 01-18-2020, 08:56 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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You do realise that most of the topics' significations have to do with strength?
This is why all astrologers switched to degree systems as soon as they were able to consistently calculate them. Incidentally, Ptedious Ptolemy's astronomical book and more importantly his ''Handy Tables'' played a large role in this proliferation. Ptolemy himself used a simple modified equal house system which was probably an embarrassment to the later astrologers, as Porphyry, Al-Qabisi, Regiomontanus and Placidus all claimed their house systems were the one used by Ptolemy.

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Unread 01-18-2020, 08:58 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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I don’t find this concept of strong or weak houses coherent or reflective of the different interests, tasks, or characteristics of either the planets or the way they would operate together in a horoscope. Planets are in community with each other, not all trying to act “strong.”
Strong, weak, better, worse, exalted, debilitated etc. These concepts are real, though have fallen out of fashion in modern astrology.

Is living a cardboard box on the street better or worse than living in a mansion with servants attending to your every need?

If there is better or worse in real life then there should also be better or worse in the chart, unless astrology is unable to reflect real life.
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Unread 01-18-2020, 09:05 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Strong, weak, better, worse, exalted, debilitated etc. These concepts are real, though have fallen out of fashion in modern astrology.

Is living a cardboard box on the street better or worse than living in a mansion with servants attending to your every need?

If there is better or worse in real life then there should also be better or worse in the chart, unless astrology is unable to reflect real life.
Well said.
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Unread 01-18-2020, 09:35 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

HoldOrFold, you raise an interesting point (meaning I've wondered about it myself.)

One of my occasional pet projects is trying to learn the origin of the thematic meanings of houses in ancient times.

It's pretty clear that houses themselves (vs. signs) are of Egyptian origin. (Micah Ross & Dorian Greenbaum, "The Role of Egypt in the Development of the Horoscope" https://www.academia.edu/7451388/The..._D._Greenbaum_ )

Also, are you familiar with Chris Brennan's book Hellenistic Astrology? Highly recommended.

In reading the most prominent Hellenistic astrologers in English translation, I'm struck by the problem that they seemed to draw on different sources. There is overlap, but they are not identical.

A big difference is the system of evaluating house strength based on angularity, vs. one that relies more on whether the houses make a traditional major aspect with the ascendant. Namely, the sextile, square, trine, or opposition. In the first system, cadent houses are weak (see Manilius) but in the second system, the unfortunate houses are the inconjunct (semi-sextile or quincunx aspect) houses (12, 8, 6) with somehow the 2nd house having a more indifferent strength.

We have to acknowledge that Egyptian mythology long predated Hellenistic horoscopic astrology. The Babylonians didn't use houses until very late in the day, and this might have been a backwards diffusion from the Hellenists.

If you can find Otto Neugebauer and his associates' research papers on demotic (Roman-era Egyptian) horoscopes in the archaeological record, these use names from Egyptian mythology for some of the houses. The 4th is the "dwat" or "duat," Osiris's judgement hall of the dead. The 5th is the house of Hathor, described as the Egyptian Venus. The evil god Seth (Set) attacks the sun as it emerges in the morning with sandstorms that reduce its visibility.

The genius of the rationalist Greeks was to try to put these mythical materials into mathematic rationales. Nevertheless, a palimpsest of older narratives peeps out.

Because we also have Hellenistic names for some of the houses. The 12th is the house of the bad spirit. The 11th is the house of the good spirit (Jupiter, probably seen as equivalent to the Egyptian creator god Khnum.) Then we have opposite parallels with the 5th (good fortune, cf. benefic Venus) and 6th (bad fortune, cf. malefic Mars.)

Like the 12th, the 6th house of dusk also symbolized a time what the sun's light was dimmed.

Anciently the 3rd was the house of the goddess moon, while the 9th was the house of the sun god. This works out by Hellenistic sect, as well, with the greater malefic Saturn joying in the 12th and the greater benefic Jupiter joying in the 12th and 11th, respectively.)

Although the Egyptian scribe god Thoth was originally a moon god, the Hellenists assimilated him to their scribe god Hermes/Mercury, the psychopomp who leads the souls through the afterlife. Thoth was often depicted on the prow of Ra's sun boat. An ancient name for the first was the prow or the rudder. (Because Egyptian boats on the Nile had to be able to navigate both up and down the current, sometimes a rudder on the prow worked better.)

There is more material on Skyscript on the topic of planetary joys.
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Unread 01-18-2020, 09:50 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

I find the argument to discredit Ptolemy "because he was not a practicing astrologer" to be similar to criticizing Donald Trump because he became president without ever having been a practicing politician. There are reasons to criticize both Trump and Ptolemy but they don't have to do with their cv.

Frankly, we don't know whether Ptolemy read horoscopes for other people or not. To me, this doesn't mean much. For the past century or so, university textbooks in economics, English literature, and political science have been written by university professors, not by people who were employed as economists, novelists, government office-holders, and so on.

As Petosiris notes, whether one approves of Ptolemy or not, he had a far more important influence on astrology going forward than did the astrologers who included horoscopes in their books. Part of Ptolemy's achievement was to set forth a systematic, comprehensive textbook. Today, in a college classroom, Tetrabiblos would probably be titled Principles of Astrology.

One thing the rationalist Ptolemy did not much care for were houses. This is a wee clue to astrological houses having a more mythological origin.
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  #31  
Unread 01-18-2020, 09:54 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

Or, let's talk about whether planets "behold" or "regard" the ascendant.
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
HoldOrFold, you raise an interesting point (meaning I've wondered about it myself.)

One of my occasional pet projects is trying to learn the origin of the thematic meanings of houses in ancient times.

It's pretty clear that houses themselves (vs. signs) are of Egyptian origin. (Micah Ross & Dorian Greenbaum, "The Role of Egypt in the Development of the Horoscope" https://www.academia.edu/7451388/The..._D._Greenbaum_ )

Also, are you familiar with Chris Brennan's book Hellenistic Astrology? Highly recommended.

In reading the most prominent Hellenistic astrologers in English translation, I'm struck by the problem that they seemed to draw on different sources. There is overlap, but they are not identical.

A big difference is the system of evaluating house strength based on angularity, vs. one that relies more on whether the houses make a traditional major aspect with the ascendant. Namely, the sextile, square, trine, or opposition. In the first system, cadent houses are weak (see Manilius)



but in the second system, the unfortunate houses are
the inconjunct (semi-sextile or quincunx aspect)


houses (12, 8, 6) with somehow the 2nd house having a more indifferent strength.



- clearly you are not a traditional practitioner
i.e.

instead of your accustomed modernist terminology
on our tradtional board
we use the term AVERSION
or planets IN DISREGARD
aka DISJUNCT






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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
We have to acknowledge that Egyptian mythology long predated Hellenistic horoscopic astrology. The Babylonians didn't use houses until very late in the day, and this might have been a backwards diffusion from the Hellenists.

If you can find Otto Neugebauer and his associates' research papers on demotic (Roman-era Egyptian) horoscopes in the archaeological record, these use names from Egyptian mythology for some of the houses. The 4th is the "dwat" or "duat," Osiris's judgement hall of the dead. The 5th is the house of Hathor, described as the Egyptian Venus. The evil god Seth (Set) attacks the sun as it emerges in the morning with sandstorms that reduce its visibility.

The genius of the rationalist Greeks was to try to put these mythical materials into mathematic rationales. Nevertheless, a palimpsest of older narratives peeps out.

Because we also have Hellenistic names for some of the houses. The 12th is the house of the bad spirit. The 11th is the house of the good spirit (Jupiter, probably seen as equivalent to the Egyptian creator god Khnum.) Then we have opposite parallels with the 5th (good fortune, cf. benefic Venus) and 6th (bad fortune, cf. malefic Mars.)

Like the 12th, the 6th house of dusk also symbolized a time what the sun's light was dimmed.

Anciently the 3rd was the house of the goddess moon, while the 9th was the house of the sun god. This works out by Hellenistic sect, as well, with the greater malefic Saturn joying in the 12th and the greater benefic Jupiter joying in the 12th and 11th, respectively.)

Although the Egyptian scribe god Thoth was originally a moon god, the Hellenists assimilated him to their scribe god Hermes/Mercury, the psychopomp who leads the souls through the afterlife. Thoth was often depicted on the prow of Ra's sun boat. An ancient name for the first was the prow or the rudder. (Because Egyptian boats on the Nile had to be able to navigate both up and down the current, sometimes a rudder on the prow worked better.)

There is more material on Skyscript on the topic of planetary joys.
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Unread 01-18-2020, 09:54 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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One thing the rationalist Ptolemy did not much care for were houses. This is a wee clue to astrological houses having a more mythological origin.
On the previous page I quoted a contemporary astrologer of Morin who said the following about Firmicus' chapter of the houses - ''he would be ridiculous who might think that these ridiculous reasons require our refutation'' (Holden translation, Book 17). Morin proceeds to give rational and naturalistic explanations for why he uses houses so much, as some of his fellow colleagues were returning to Ptolemy in this regard.
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Unread 01-18-2020, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post
Strong, weak, better, worse, exalted, debilitated etc. These concepts are real, though have fallen out of fashion in modern astrology.

Is living a cardboard box on the street better or worse than living in a mansion with servants attending to your every need?

If there is better or worse in real life then there should also be better or worse in the chart, unless astrology is unable to reflect real life.
You’re not trying to understand the point which is that a merely polar concept obscures qualitative and “scope of work” differences. Can Nature be exploited by the stronger? Of course. But she gets him in the end.
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Unread 01-18-2020, 10:38 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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You’re not trying to understand the point which is that a merely polar concept obscures qualitative and “scope of work” differences. Can Nature be exploited by the stronger? Of course. But she gets him in the end.
The ancient astrologers weren't better astrologers than modern day people, they were better philosophers.
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Or, let's talk about whether planets "behold" or "regard" the ascendant.
I think that this and angularity are more important and consistent than the meanings attached to the houses. Planetary aversion seems to be key in determining if a planet is going to help the native, harm the native, or performing in a bumbling manner.

I'm increasingly skeptical of how applicable the meanings of the houses are in delineation because I often find that when it comes down to actual chart work, we're required to stretch to make the planets fit the houses. I'm not quite at the point where I think that house meanings are all irrelevant nonsense, but I'm certainly beginning to appreciate just using planetary regards to the Asc and angularity when it comes to delineation. The planetary symbolism is rich enough that you can say quite a bit with just that. Often times I find that house meanings just make things confusing.

But that's just me and I have a lot of work to do before I can really say once and for all that I'm doing with using house meanings. I can just see how traditional delineation can be done without them.

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Unread 01-19-2020, 12:08 AM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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But that's just me and I have a lot of work to do before I can really say once and for all that I'm doing with using house meanings. I can just see how traditional delineation can be done without them.
In relation to this, I welcome everyone trying to achieve the objective of prediction on this board, whether they predict wealth with the lord of the Lot of Fortune or the lord of the second house cusp is immaterial, except technically. On the technicality all traditions and astrologers differ in some respect, but on the objective, they did not doubt that one could predict whether one would be of poor, middling or great fortune at least in general and from objective standpoint, and they all used the concept of planetary strength under some form for that matter. To doubt one technique and to advocate for another is to engage in traditional astrology and advancing it, to doubt the philosophy and the possibility of prediction, is to doubt traditional astrology to begin with. Probably for this reason the forum board description includes ''The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction.''

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Unread 01-19-2020, 12:42 AM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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A big difference is the system of evaluating house strength based on angularity, vs. one that relies more on whether the houses make a traditional major aspect with the ascendant. Namely, the sextile, square, trine, or opposition. In the first system, cadent houses are weak (see Manilius) but in the second system, the unfortunate houses are the inconjunct (semi-sextile or quincunx aspect) houses (12, 8, 6) with somehow the 2nd house having a more indifferent strength.
The 2nd is post-ascending and rising unlike the 8th which is post-ascending, but setting. The 3rd is pre-ascending, anti-culminating and also configured only with an inferior sextile. Both Dorotheus and Hephaistio explicitly say that the 2nd is better than the 3rd. The Indians likewise say the 6th, 8th and 12th are worst (dusthana) while the 3rd (not the 2nd) is middling. Ptolemy on the other hand seems to treat the 2nd as the fourth most powerful place in 3.3. and 3.4. of the Tetrabiblos. He seems to consider only orientality and angularity, unlike in 1.24. where he mentions aspect in a passing. I debated this once with a friend of mine, he argues that Ptolemy was only talking in general terms, and would also consider aspect to the Ascendant in the latter two chapters, where I was arguing that he (or the scribe) was using two different contradictory sources, with the latter being of Nechepso kind of understanding of the importance of orientality and angularity over aspect. We see this tense contradiction with other astrologers such as Dorotheus and Valens when using the triplicity rulers of the sect light, the 3rd and 9th places of gods and fortune suddenly become about beggars and misfortune.

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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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That is exactly where this system ends up, isn’t it? So
reductionist as to be nonsensical.
Traditional astrology is holistic and commonsensical at the same time in my opinion - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/3A*.html#3
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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I think that this and angularity are more important and consistent than the meanings attached to the houses. Planetary aversion seems to be key in determining if a planet is going to help the native, harm the native, or performing in a bumbling manner.

I'm increasingly skeptical of how applicable the meanings of the houses are in delineation because I often find that when it comes down to actual chart work, we're required to stretch to make the planets fit the houses. I'm not quite at the point where I think that house meanings are all irrelevant nonsense, but I'm certainly beginning to appreciate just using planetary regards to the Asc and angularity when it comes to delineation. The planetary symbolism is rich enough that you can say quite a bit with just that. Often times I find that house meanings just make things confusing.

But that's just me and I have a lot of work to do before I can really say once and for all that I'm doing with using house meanings. I can just see how traditional delineation can be done without them.
You might be right re: nativities. Ptolemy used planets to analyse questions of siblings, parents, marriage, and so on, for which others would be inclined to use houses.

However, houses are essential in horary astrology, which is also part of traditional astrology. Houses are also basic in traditional medical and mundane astrology so perhaps it depends upon the type of astrology undertaken.

Houses seem to be a post-Babylonian addition to astrology; and I am one of those people who agrees with Robert Hand that whole signs was probably the earliest house system developed. In that sense (only) we can apply what the Hellenists said about signs and planets in signs to houses.


Jupiter Ascendant, It's not necessary to be the vocabulary police here. Wouldn't you call Chris Brennan, noted Hellenistic astrologer, "traditional?" Here's what he said on p. 298 of his book Hellenistic Astrology:
"...the concepts of the semi-sextile and quincunx aspects of modern astrology were never developed in the Hellenistic tradition, because these intervals were characterized by their lack of affinity..."

[deleted attacking comment - Moderator] use modern terms to make a traditional point more understandable.

Brennan here was making a point in his mention of the "non-Ptolemaic" aspects, as I was. Basically if houses don't share one of the Big Four aspects, this says something about their inability to coordinate within the horoscope. This is worth knowing about. (p. 298) For example, it is probably better if a malefic cannot "regard" a beneficial planet, because the malefic's influence is weakened by its position.

I would point out that the words "aversion" and "disregard" are English, whereas the astrologer authors of the Hellenistic period were writing in Greek and Latin. The English language did not exist during the Hellenistic period. So we are looking at approximate translations.

If we look at the English language translations of classical scholars, we find that Ptolemy doesn't even use "aversion" in Tetrabiblos 1:13, preferring simply to talk about the aspects of the opposition, trine, square, and sextile. Then he's got some material on other relationships between signs. However, in 1:16 "Of Disjunct Signs" he calls signs without "familiarities" with one another "disjunct" and "alien."

Chris Brennan, in his comprehensive Hellenistic Astrology, typically translates the Greek word apostrophe as "aversion," but also mentions its concise meaning of "turning away" from something. As such, apostrophe may not carry the connotation of repugnance meant by the English word "aversion," as we are simply talking about geometric relationships between signs and planets within signs and houses.

Brennan's chapter 9 on "the doctrine of configurations" is well worth reading.
The key word take-aways from Brennan on geometric relationships are "witnessing," "testimony," "observing," and "scrutinizing," He wrote (p. 293) ...in the Hellenistic tradition, aspects were conceptualized as the means by which planets could see or not see each other. The aspect doctrine then is partially based on ancient Greek optical theories...." He points out that the Latin root of our English word "aspect" is "seeing, looking at."

Accordingly, a conjunction was not technically an aspect, because conjoined planets could not properly behold one another; although the conjunction was often used as though it were a proper Hellenistic aspect.

Then we get into a more sign-based interpretation of affinities, according to a sign's gender, quadruplicity, element.

To get back to the OP, we do find planetary joys in opposition relationships with the malefics Saturn (12th) and Mars (6th,) the benefics Jupiter (11th) and Venus (5th) and luminaries sun (9th) and moon (3rd.) There are some other affinities, as well: the masculine planets Jupiter and the sun are in a sextile relationship. The feminine moon and Venus are in a sextile relationship. Malefics Saturn and Mars are in a square relationship with the sun and moon. Mercury joying in the first house beholds Jupiter, sun, Venus, and the moon, but not the malefics in the 12th and 6th houses.
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Unread 01-19-2020, 04:09 AM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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However, houses are essential in horary astrology, which is also part of traditional astrology. Houses are also basic in traditional medical and mundane astrology so perhaps it depends upon the type of astrology undertaken.
Have you read Hellenistic astrological authors on events, elections and questions? Dorotheus and Hephaistio used to do the same prognostication using the four angles and never using lords of houses. Ptolemy did medical and mundane too. Btw just to clarify any possible misunderstanding, he consistently uses houses for planetary strength, and does occasionally use some of them as significators, especially the degrees of the Ascendant and the Midheaven, which he considers as two of the five most authoritative places at the nativity. What you are talking about mostly are particular topical significations like wealth in 2nd, siblings in 3rd, parents in 4th and so on, which Ptolemy often omits, although not entirely (as in the case of children, injury, action and slaves).

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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

Are we reading the same Tetrabiblos? Ptolemy explicity talks about houses only with respect to one method, calculating length of life in III. 10. Then he doesn't even mention all of the houses by number or name.

I agree that we can sometimes infer houses from Mr. Pt's discussions having to do with angularity, oriental/occidental, or the order of signs.

I have the sources you mention, but I don't read them to replicate the techniques.

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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Are we reading the same Tetrabiblos? Ptolemy explicity talks about houses only with respect to one method, calculating length of life in III. 10. Then he doesn't even mention all of the houses by number or name.

I agree that we can sometimes infer houses from Mr. Pt's discussions having to do with angularity, oriental/occidental, or the order of signs.

I have the sources you mention, but I don't read them to replicate the techniques.

Sneaky!
Sneaky what?

Ptolemy uses the Ascendant, the Midheaven and the Descendant places for classification of events in mundane astrology in 2.7.
Ptolemy uses the 10th and 11th derivative places from Venus or Moon for the children of the mother/siblings in 3.5.
Ptolemy uses the Ascendant in 3.6, 3.7, 3.8, 3.9, 3.11, 3.12, 3.14 and 4.7 for gender, multiple births, teratology, infant mortality, bodily form, bodily injuries and diseases, diseases of the soul and pleasure or pain in friendship or enmity.
Ptolemy uses the Descendant and its pre-ascending place for bodily injuries and diseases in 3.12.
Ptolemy uses the Midheaven place for action in 4.4.
Ptolemy uses the Midheaven, its post-ascension and the opposite places for children in 4.6.
Ptolemy uses the ''place of the evil daemon'' for slaves in 4.7.
Ptolemy uses the Descendant and the four declines for travel in 4.8 and 4.9.
Ptolemy uses the Descendant degree as a potential significator of death and the Anti-Midheaven for burial in 4.9.
Ptolemy uses the Ascendant degree (for body and travel) and the Midheaven degree (for action, children and friendship) as two of the five most authoritative/prorogative places in 4.10.
Almost every chapter includes the usage of planetary power ''with respect to the nativity'', and he also has a great method for timing events with the quadrants, which he also uses for gender. He explains this in 1.6 and 3.3. He gives an alternative arrangement with alternating houses (some of the Medieval and Renaissance astrologers used this), but does not agree with it in 1.12.

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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

[response to attacking comment - Moderator]

My "sneaky" tag-line unfortunately was misplaced. Given your post, I won't now correct it. What I meant was Ptolemy really declines to talk about houses directly, except in sec. 3:10. Angularity, yes. But not like other Hellenistic astrologers itemized their thematic meanings. But as you point out, we can infer a lot about houses from examples such as those you posted. So he's kind of covert about them.
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

I watched an astrologypodcast episode and had some thoughts, here's a timestamped part about the 6th house and Mars rejoicing there: https://youtu.be/bddnuFMkmpQ?t=12350

Austin is saying how this house is kind of a house of "entropy", i.e. it indicates things like illnesses which wear down the body. It's a house which requires work and maintenance. The idea I'm getting from this is that everyone's got a 6th house, their body will always be in a state of entropy, for instance if you don't exercise you will waste away. This is the same for everyone to varying degrees. But if you have Mars there, it's looking after it and Mars is down for that kind of stuff as it rejoices here in the place of toil.

Another idea is that significations can be externalised outwards, an example is someone with benefics in the 6th house configured to the MC and this person was a really good doctor. Mars being in the 6th house can externalise the maelific nature of the house which is good for war, Mars' territory. Since the 6th is a house of attacking the body, it also represents weaponry i.e. tools used to attack the bodies of others, something which Mars delights in.

And imagine training in a martial arts dojo for instance. To become a good fighter, you will need to be attacked regularly. Mars loves this kind of training and it makes it stronger. Whereas imagine how Venus would feel being constantly under attack. So while the 6th would generally make other planets weak by being constantly stressed in this place, Mars here becomes strong.

So that's Mars at least, but what about the other cadent houses. Regarding the 9th house, it's configured to the Ascendant via a trine so it's considered the "best" of the cadent houses. But the idea of "the best of the worst" is not completely satisfactory for me. So I think the idea of cadent = weak isn't really enough on it's own, perhaps there is a synergy between the aspect to the ascendant and the angularity of a house becomes more than a sum of the two parts on their own, kind of like drinking something can be poisonous but if you add one ingredient it can be really healthy.

Part of the significations of the 9th is God and faith, and in a way in this sphere it pays to be humble and to give up elements of control as you let a higher power work through you. So perhaps the weakness here becomes strength as you are prostrating yourself before higher powers which bless you and your life through your humility and deference.
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

I said I didn't want to hijack this thread and now look where I am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
You might be right re: nativities. Ptolemy used planets to analyse questions of siblings, parents, marriage, and so on, for which others would be inclined to use houses.

However, houses are essential in horary astrology, which is also part of traditional astrology. Houses are also basic in traditional medical and mundane astrology so perhaps it depends upon the type of astrology undertaken.
Ehhh not necessarily. To be clear when I say houses, I mean the topical meanings applied to the houses, not the houses themselves as defined by angularity and aspect to the Ascendant. For example if you ask a question about wealth and the Lord of the Ascendant is applying to a planet in one of the cadent houses and that planet also rules a house in aversion to the Ascendant, you have your answer right there without applying any house meanings. The significator applying to a well placed angular benefic that rules an angle is positive regardless of house meanings. This isn't strictly traditional, but it goes to show how questions can be answered without relying on house meanings.

It is indeed true that later horary forces you to pick a house for the quesited, but authors like Mashallah place more weight on the condition of the Lord of the Asc/Moon and their next aspect than house meanings. He eventually does add house meanings as a bit of another layer, but in laying down his baseline method in On Reception, very little is made of picking the house of the quesited before hand.

As far as mundane astrology goes, the same thing applies. Ptolemy only uses houses within his mundane astrology in regards to angularity. Even Persian Mundane astrology can be done without recourse to house meanings. Find the Lord of the Year and analyze their condition, look at what planets are angular and their condition, etc. etc.

Electional astrology can certainly be done without house meanings, as demonstrated by Dorotheus. I don't know anywhere close to enough about medical astrology to have an opinion either way.

So I'd agree that house meanings are important to some authors, especially as the tradition went along, but it is possible to get useful information in horary and mundane without necessarily using the topics assigned to the houses. I would say that if one is to use topics as applied to the houses, one should make sure that it makes sense within the context of angularity and aspect to the Ascendant.

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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post
I watched an astrologypodcast episode and had some thoughts, here's a timestamped part about the 6th house and Mars rejoicing there: https://youtu.be/bddnuFMkmpQ?t=12350

Austin is saying how this house is kind of a house of "entropy", i.e. it indicates things like illnesses which wear down the body. It's a house which requires work and maintenance. The idea I'm getting from this is that everyone's got a 6th house, their body will always be in a state of entropy, for instance if you don't exercise you will waste away. This is the same for everyone to varying degrees. But if you have Mars there, it's looking after it and Mars is down for that kind of stuff as it rejoices here in the place of toil.

Another idea is that significations can be externalised outwards, an example is someone with benefics in the 6th house configured to the MC and this person was a really good doctor. Mars being in the 6th house can externalise the maelific nature of the house which is good for war, Mars' territory. Since the 6th is a house of attacking the body, it also represents weaponry i.e. tools used to attack the bodies of others, something which Mars delights in.

And imagine training in a martial arts dojo for instance. To become a good fighter, you will need to be attacked regularly. Mars loves this kind of training and it makes it stronger. Whereas imagine how Venus would feel being constantly under attack. So while the 6th would generally make other planets weak by being constantly stressed in this place, Mars here becomes strong.

So that's Mars at least, but what about the other cadent houses. Regarding the 9th house, it's configured to the Ascendant via a trine so it's considered the "best" of the cadent houses. But the idea of "the best of the worst" is not completely satisfactory for me. So I think the idea of cadent = weak isn't really enough on it's own, perhaps there is a synergy between the aspect to the ascendant and the angularity of a house becomes more than a sum of the two parts on their own, kind of like drinking something can be poisonous but if you add one ingredient it can be really healthy.

Part of the significations of the 9th is God and faith, and in a way in this sphere it pays to be humble and to give up elements of control as you let a higher power work through you. So perhaps the weakness here becomes strength as you are prostrating yourself before higher powers which bless you and your life through your humility and deference.
The problem with explaining the seven planetary joys via house meanings is that you run into circular reasoning. It is much more likely that the house meanings came second after the joys were placed there.
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post
I said I didn't want to hijack this thread and now look where I am.

Ehhh not necessarily. To be clear when I say houses, I mean the topical meanings applied to the houses, not the houses themselves as defined by angularity and aspect to the Ascendant. For example if you ask a question about wealth and the Lord of the Ascendant is applying to a planet in one of the cadent houses and that planet also rules a house in aversion to the Ascendant, you have your answer right there without applying any house meanings. The significator applying to a well placed angular benefic that rules an angle is positive regardless of house meanings. This isn't strictly traditional, but it goes to show how questions can be answered without relying on house meanings.

It is indeed true that later horary forces you to pick a house for the quesited, but authors like Mashallah place more weight on the condition of the Lord of the Asc/Moon and their next aspect than house meanings. He eventually does add house meanings as a bit of another layer, but in laying down his baseline method in On Reception, very little is made of picking the house of the quesited before hand.

As far as mundane astrology goes, the same thing applies. Ptolemy only uses houses within his mundane astrology in regards to angularity. Even Persian Mundane astrology can be done without recourse to house meanings. Find the Lord of the Year and analyze their condition, look at what planets are angular and their condition, etc. etc.

Electional astrology can certainly be done without house meanings, as demonstrated by Dorotheus. I don't know anywhere close to enough about medical astrology to have an opinion either way.

So I'd agree that house meanings are important to some authors, especially as the tradition went along, but it is possible to get useful information in horary and mundane without necessarily using the topics assigned to the houses. I would say that if one is to use topics as applied to the houses, one should make sure that it makes sense within the context of angularity and aspect to the Ascendant.

WHOLE SIGN HOUSES clearly determines TOPICS
and eliminates ambiguity of HOUSE location of PLANET

and then
using any quadrant house system
such as Placidus, Alcabitius et al
assists with determining PLANETARY STRENGTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueLibra View Post

Just changed my WHOLE way of thinking about it. Not saying I was looking for validation but i just couldn't return to the cusping style but cuspa as a sensitive point makes so much sense to me. For me, like Dr.Farr, whole sign is just far more accurate from personality to transit. I dont dablle in progressions too too much so i havent applied it there but This was such a great reply. I actually read that reaponse before and believe it or not its the main reason I stayed with whole sign and actually switched to it. You'd be surprised how often your name and Dr.Farr appeared on things when I googled astrology advice. I think yall were here when I first came.

Amazing post tho. Reading it a second time jist makes me solidfy my stance with whole sign houses. I'm still stuck at how much more since it makes. I think ppl think whole sign ditches cusps all together and even I thought it did but it doesn't it just reapplies them in a different way. God that makes so much sense to me. I have been on other websites where ppl use the cusps in order to have the desired placements they seek in their chart but i always felt like this was wrong. It never made sense to me to have a 12th and 1st house libra. It honestly confused me. Whole sign just provided more accuracy for me. And i didn't just use it for myself. I had some ppl ask me to read their chart and i took guesses using the whole sign system but never told them that's what i was using. They were shocked by how accurate I was and when i told them the system they looked even more shocked.

Safe to say im sticking with this system and now I have a new and more efficient way to use it
tsmalls comment at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=94683
explains the rationale

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
I use both whole signs and Placidus.


The original idea of quadrant based house systems was to determine angularity,
and never to replace the concept of topics
.


So I count signs for topics
and use a house system overlaid onto it.
Because, as I mentioned above, capability
and angularity/ability to act
are two different things.....


tsmall uses BOTH whole signs AND Placidus

I use BOTH whole signs AND Alcabitius

some use whole sign AND Regiomontanus

there are multiple QUADRANT house systems
its a matter of personal choice which to use in tandem with WHOLE SIGN
IF one chooses to do so
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

Yes, the dominant house system in Greco-Roman astrology
(until about the time of the end of the Classical Period) was whole sign,
but (among the famous very early Arabic astrologers of the transitional period)
only Abu'Mashar continued the ancient Greco-Roman practice,
and the whole sign house format became virtually forgotten (in the West)
until the mid-1990's.

Personally I think it was an historical tragedy for our astrological art
that whole sign houses became lost to memory,
for my experience
over the past nearly 20 years of exclusively using whole sign houses
has convinced me
of the more consistent accuracy of this house system, over any other...

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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

Thanks for the correction Osamenor! I am usually fine with mods editing and deleting biting comments on both sides if they want to stop a possible confrontation. It has to be fair.

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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

Some time ago I wrote this on a thread related to the joy of Mars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
First, not all Hellenistic authors mention the joys. For example, Ptolemy makes no mention of them (although he does use the names of the places a few times, but perhaps for clarity).

Second, those that do, they do not always agree on whether the malefics in their joys are very good or very bad. Valens wants the malefics in the good places of V and XI, saying they do not do bad, but he says they do worst in the bad places of VI and XII (double negative does not make a positive). Paulus on the other hand says that the malefics in their joys bring good fortune if they are also favorably placed. It basically became the medieval dignity point. Valens seems to treat of those places not as dignity considerations, but as places influenced and controlled by the rulers that ''rejoice'' there.
Something tangentially related to ''rejoicing''.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I am pretty sure that the term ''rejoicing/charein'' is used in a variety of situations by different authors like Ptolemy, Valens and Dorotheus. Ptolemy for example uses it in his chapter on ''chariots and faces'', Valens with sect and horizon. Note Ptolemy never mentions the ''house joys''!

Basically, every good placement is ''joy'', in the same way that houses, exaltations, trigons and terms are all called ''houses/oikoi''. Indeed, this identical terminology in certain places makes it impossible to be certain whether the author meant the houseruler by sign, exaltation, triplicity or term, especially if the context is not clear enough (cf. Valens on the houserulers of trigon houserulers - in one passage of 2.2. it is hard to tell whether he meant the ''domicile'' rulers or the trigon rulers of the trigon rulers). Bouché-Leclercq (with usual sarcasm) criticizes oikodespotes as ''the most banal and least precise term of astrological vocabulary'' in L’astrologie grecque.

The confusion of this thread is that the posters, like you, have not examined the terminology of Greek source texts. I find it lamentable that our community has not taken greater caution with modern astrological evaluation and naive reconstruction of Hellenistic texts - in a more direct manner with emphasis on the source texts themselves. Semantics surrounding the zodiac, houses, rejoicing and ''the aspect doctrine'' often reveal problems of implausible reconstructions offered by modern astrologers working in this field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
On topic, ''rejoicing'' of one planet in a certain place is in language indistinguishable from the ''rejoicing'' by placement of diurnal planets above the horizon by day, in Valens. In another author like Ptolemy, ''rejoicing'' refers to something totally different.

In this case, it would be useful to apply reconstruction of different authors rather than presenting ridiculous reconstruction of ''Hellenistic astrology'' as if it is one monolithic thing. It is very easy to see how this thinking can lead to a concept like ''sorrow'', if rejoicing was meant to be used in a wider context, then the ''planetary joys'' can't be solely conceptualized as a singular dignity.
Planetary sorrows were a medieval concept that applied the logic of detriment and fall to the houses with joys. On that note the vocabulary police can become useful when people make linguistic claims about certain Hellenistic techniques as did some people on that thread without realizing that the term ''rejoicing'' was also applied to favourably placed planets (2.7P of Valens' Anthology), to planets in the hemisphere of the favourable sect (3.5 of Valens' Anthology), to planets in houses, exaltations, triplicities and terms of rulers with the same sect (1.23 of Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos) etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
That is exactly where this system ends up, isn’t it? So
reductionist as to be nonsensical.
Quote:
''7P. <The X Place>—Midheaven
Both benefics and malefics rejoice in this place if they have been assigned the Lot, the Ascendant, or
Daimon.
If any of the <benefics> are in it when rising, or if they have contact with the moon, tyrants and
kings are born, governors of districts, men known by name in many places. The ruler of this Place, if
situated favorably, makes vigorous/successful men; if situated unfavorably, it makes feeble/unsuccessful
men. If <the ruler> is setting and a malefic is in conjunction or in opposition to this Place, it makes
failures, as well as sterile or childless men.'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

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