Celibacy in traditional astrology

waybread

Well-known member
So here are my 2c on the subject.

First off, anyone living in a modern country today does not have to be celibate if s/he doesn't want to be. What with all of the dating apps, holiday destinations known for their pick-up possibilities, bars, sex-for-hire, and so on.

So I have to assume that you're Not That Kind of Girl (or Guy-- you haven't said.) Obviously you could have had casual sex at multiple points over the past 25 years or so, but chose not to. Possibly you want a deeper, more permanent connection with someone before jumping into bed with him/her.

The first thing that jumps out at me is your Saturn in the first house of one's body and outward personality-- and conjunct your ascendant. Thus also opposed to your descendant. Saturn rules limitations of various kinds. You may feel that there is something essentially limited or wrong about you. Your Saturn is angular and in-sect (though below the horizon) but has no essential dignity. So he's not helping you out much here.

We pick up more Saturn with your moon-Jupiter in Capricorn, the moon in detriment and Jupiter in its fall. I would guess that you're not the impulsive follow-your-heart kind of bon vivant/e. I see you as someone with enormous self-discipline-- to a fault, perhaps?

This is consistent with what I infer from your posts, that you feel limited or constrained by your celibacy.

Venus rules your 7th house. She's in Libra (great) but in the terms of Saturn and square your moon-Jupiter in Capricorn (more Saturn.) The 12th house is not a terrific placement for relationship-oriented Venus in Libra. The 12th deals with people who are shut-in in some way, ranging from a voluntary sequestering of oneself or membership in a religious order that sequesters its members, to people who are hospitalized or even imprisoned. Our 12th house planets are often ciphers to us, although they may be perfectly clear to everyone around us.

Mars is the other sexy planet. It has no essential dignity and squares your sun and Mercury. It is ruled by Jupiter, which loops us back to Saturn.

So the bad news is that you're 45 wondering why you're celibate. The good news is that you've avoided the kinds of sexual relationships that you wouldn't have wanted in the first place. Even where you may be tempted to indulge in a 5th house fling or an arranged marriage, you hold back, perhaps knowing it isn't what you want in a sexual relationship.

I agree that not everything in our lives has an astrological explanation. Skin color and birth nationality, for example. If you look through your past, you may develop further understanding as to why you remain celibate. Sometimes children have been sexually assaulted or been exposed to inappropriate sex, and grow up fearful of sex. Sometimes they had a strict background (usually but not necessarily religious) that taught them that sex was bad and wrong outside of marriage.

Further, I wonder if you might have sublimated that domiciled Venus into some other Venusian activity like playing a musical instrument, writing poetry, or reading.

Virgo is an earthy earth sign, but it is a perfectionist, and if you're looking for love, you may not have found someone who (a) reciprocates and who (b) meets your standards.

You also wrote:

A person with a very strong Mercury can be overtaken by voyeuristic fantasies showing less inclination to particpate in the sexual act itself.

While I might dispute this astrologically, if you are saying what I think you are saying, you might benefit from counseling. Especially if you have got a back-story of exposure to childhood sexual abuse or a super-strict upbringing, counseling might be helpful.

Lostinstars, I actually see your chart as perfectly fine and OK. Many religious orders require a vow of celibacy. In the past, an unmarried woman of any age would have been criticized severely if she lost her chastity. This is just to put you in a wider perspective.

The one thing I see is that with your NN in your 8th house, which rules the sex organs, is that your personal growth may come from engaging in some sexual activity with a considerate person. I cannot promise that it would go brilliantly. But you are emotionally strong enough and mature enough to handle whatever it brings.

With all good wishes, W.
 
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lostinstars

Well-known member
Lostinstars, check the ephemeris for the year you were born. Your DC is in Taurus, which makes Venus its ruler, and you were not born during a Venus retrograde. If Venus went retrograde within however many days after your birth equals however many years old you are now, you have Venus retrograde by progression, which would make the progressed Venus retrograde explanation a possibility. If it didn't, that can't be it.

Thanks Osamenor, I already checked, Venus went retrograde in the year after I was born, so this is not valid in my case.

@ AJ Astrology, not sure which house system and method you followed to analyse all the things you said?

Although modern statistical analysis applied to natal charts disqualify as "non-traditional" (but seeing as how I'm seeing not so strictly traditional techniques here it doesn't seem out of place) a study done on prostitutes saw Virgo Venus being statistically significant for the set. This was using the astrodatabank. For comparison Taurus and Libra Venus were low in frequency.

Thanks conspiracy theorist, I was not aware of this research but when I was reading from modern astrology’s perspective before I got into traditional I have come across themes like Venus in Virgo as sacred prostitute and surrogate sex partners. May be pornstars have them too, I guess.

Celibacy or anything in life happens for different reasons for different people. In OPs case, I see that the temperament of the chart is melancholic-choleric (the least sociable temperamental combination) and the combination of the "loudness" of Saturn (planet of solitude, contemplation, cloistered study, retreat, somber personality) and the "quietness" of Venus (love relationships, social life, lightheartedness, charm) are all mutually reinforcing factors. Venus does not regard the ascendant, and is located in the house of loss/exile. Ruler of the ascendant is on the heart of the Scorpion.

I’m not denying that a combination of factors could make a native a celibate or a sadist or a murderer or anything else. But like how Venus in Virgo is seen as statistically significant among prostitutes there could be something similar in case of life long celibates.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
@lostinstars

You'd be interested to know that playboy centerfolds also have prominent Virgo planets, but the statistical significant Venus sign was for Scorpio, which follows a modern astrology trope of being the seductress vixen that men obsess over. For homosexual men, Virgo Venus and Mars were statistically significant. All of this suggests that the sign Virgo has a sexual component that balances out its virginal motifs.

As to stats on celibates, certainly think it's possible although I haven't seen any research on the matter. The great news there is that the necessary tools are there to undertake such a study. One may contact the man running this website -> https://astrologyresearch.co.uk/ speak to him on what tools he uses to do his statistical analysis, and then head to the astrodatabank files and apply those tools to the charts of celibates to see what crops up. Or you could collate charts on celibates independently to add/augment what is already available in the database.

As indicated by those tests I've alluded to, if one were to only rely on Dogma you'd probably not see Virgos topping the list of these groups of persons.
 

waybread

Well-known member
[Deleted response to off topic post. - Moderator]

Lostinstars, just one other add-on to the post I made yesterday: Saturn rules fear. Mercury does rule youth, yet not in the way you described sexuality. In Hellenistic mythology, orgies were ascribed to Dyonisus, not Mercury (Hermes.) Generally they did not portray the god Mercury/Hermes as hermaphroditic, but as male. I think this idea comes from a female prototype of Mercury in ancient Sumer and Babylon, a goddess called Nisaba or Nidaba, who ruled scribes as well as grain stores. Today, she has some vestiges of the old goddess in the constellation and sign of Virgo. Also, there are differences in the interpretation of the planet Mercury depending upon its location in the horoscope, such as whether it precedes or follows the sun.

Interestingly, although sun-Virgo people can be very earthy (I have two sun-Virgo children, BTW) Virgo traditionally is one of the "barren" signs. It stands to reason that a virgin would not produce offspring.

The esoteric meaning of Hermes was the psychopomp or conductor of souls.

A good source on mythological Mercury/Hermes is https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Hermes.html
 
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Osamenor

Staff member
All,

The subject of this thread is celibacy from a traditional astrology perspective. Please stay on topic. I just deleted several off topic posts. Including a request to stay on topic and the subsequent post that ignored it.

If you spend more than one or two posts on a side point, that is hijacking the thread.

Again, no hijacking,
Osamenor
 

AJ Astrology

Well-known member
That doesn't describe lostinstars' chart.

Hi Osamenor,

That's what was in the chart that was posted the other day (but isn't here now).


No one I know with a Virgo Venus in 8h is anywhere near celibate. Delayed marriage yes.

Hi passiflora,

I never said it was. There's more to it than planets and signs. A rising Venus is the same as a setting Venus and a rising day Venus is not the same as a rising night Venus and it's impacted by the house ruler and whether or not the house ruler can even see the house it rules and whether benefics or malefics aspect Venus.

And that's just part of it.

Is Venus between the malelifics or separate from a malefic and applying to a benefic and on and on.

... a study done on prostitutes saw Virgo Venus being statistically significant for the set. This was using the astrodatabank. For comparison Taurus and Libra Venus were low in frequency.

Hi conspiracy theorist,

I've seen that, but there are other factors they don't take into account.

I’m not denying that a combination of factors could make a native a celibate or a sadist or a murderer or anything else. But like how Venus in Virgo is seen as statistically significant among prostitutes there could be something similar in case of life long celibates.

Hi lostinstars,

Now that I've seen your real chart, not much has changed. Maternus and Dorotheus say the same thing. You don't just have a H12 Venus, you have a Libra H12 Venus ruling H7 and to rub salt in the wound, in square to a Capricorn Moon/Jupiter conjunction.

That will make things difficult for you and having a H1 Scorpio Saturn with Mars sitting in H2 doesn't help at all.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
While I might dispute this astrologically, if you are saying what I think you are saying, you might benefit from counseling. Especially if you have got a back-story of exposure to childhood sexual abuse or a super-strict upbringing, counseling might be helpful.

Thanks waybread, no sexual abuse but very strict upbringing by a cold mother but I’m not unique, every second person you come across have such upbringing from a middle class conservative family. I don’t hold the upbringing responsible for my celibacy but like you said Saturn cripples my self esteem to the core.

Further, I wonder if you might have sublimated that domiciled Venus into some other Venusian activity like playing a musical instrument, writing poetry, or reading.

I read voraciously for a guy (I’m a guy) and from childhood I always wanted to learn piano but no opportunities in my city except from one Catholic Church which has a long list of people waiting to learn piano literally hundreds, unbelievable!
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
You'd be interested to know that playboy centerfolds also have prominent Virgo planets, but the statistical significant Venus sign was for Scorpio, which follows a modern astrology trope of being the seductress vixen that men obsess over. For homosexual men, Virgo Venus and Mars were statistically significant. All of this suggests that the sign Virgo has a sexual component that balances out its virginal motifs.

It is very difficult to explain this dichotomy of supposed Virgo virgins being playboy centerfolds, probably it alludes to the fact of meticulousness of Virgos to use information, in this case using their sexuality and youngish looks for living keeping it separate from their intimate private lives. Do you think other signs can do this?

As to stats on celibates, certainly think it's possible although I haven't seen any research on the matter. The great news there is that the necessary tools are there to undertake such a study. One may contact the man running this website -> https://astrologyresearch.co.uk/ speak to him on what tools he uses to do his statistical analysis, and then head to the astrodatabank files and apply those tools to the charts of celibates to see what crops up. Or you could collate charts on celibates independently to add/augment what is already available in the database.

As indicated by those tests I've alluded to, if one were to only rely on Dogma you'd probably not see Virgos topping the list of these groups of persons.

Thanks, interesting I will reach out to this person.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Lostinstars, I think Mom as a cool, remote kind of person to you is shown with your moon-Jupiter in Capricorn. One in detriment, the other in its fall, both ruled by Saturn.

I also have Jupiter in Capricorn and have not found it to be a terrible debility. I have a love of history and old furniture, for example. But sometimes I do feel luck has passed me by, given the effort I've put into certain endeavors. However, my life has also avoided major problems; and I think many people would see it as fortunate.

One thing about Saturn, is that because he rules old age, he tends to reward his apt pupils later in life. Saturn demands something from us: perseverance, hard work, and self-discipline, however.

One dimension of traditional astrology that we haven't discussed yet is that much of it tends to be fatalistic. Some people believe that they have choices, and find fatalism depressing. Others view fatalism with a sense of relief: that their problems in life are not somehow their fault, like some kind of moral failing. Their life has unfolded as it must for someone with their horoscope. The individual has one big choice: to accept and embrace the life he has been given; and to meet life's troubles with calm and courage. Or not, but then resistance just creates hardship.

So maybe consider whether this fatalistic view lets you off the hook. I think that if you don't wish to be celibate any more, and believe that you can make choices, there are ways that modern people today change it. Maybe these ways do not lead to a happy longstanding intimate relationship, but they cure the celibacy issue. But maybe you prefer to stay within your comfort zone and not take any risks. If so, then you have carved out a life for yourself that suits you, all things considered.

If none of the above, I hope you will try counseling. There are helpful and unhelpful counselors and psychologists, as there are in any profession. But if you find a good one, s/he might help you take those steps more towards the kind of life you want.

BTW, if you would love to play the piano and are in a situation now that could include it, you can always begin as an adult. Venus in Libra would probably enjoy a little music.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Note that Hitler had a Moon-Jupiter conjunction in Capricorn. And a stellium in Taurus. Venus is sole dispositor and strongly over-emphasized.
 
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lostinstars

Well-known member
One thing about Saturn, is that because he rules old age, he tends to reward his apt pupils later in life. Saturn demands something from us: perseverance, hard work, and self-discipline, however.

One dimension of traditional astrology that we haven't discussed yet is that much of it tends to be fatalistic. Some people believe that they have choices, and find fatalism depressing. Others view fatalism with a sense of relief: that their problems in life are not somehow their fault, like some kind of moral failing. Their life has unfolded as it must for someone with their horoscope. The individual has one big choice: to accept and embrace the life he has been given; and to meet life's troubles with calm and courage. Or not, but then resistance just creates hardship.

I have come to accept that life is more fatalistic in line with the traditional astrology's opinion with all the experiences I have had so far. May be it is so for Saturn dominated natives (Saturn has the next highest accidental dignity with peregrine after Venus, the Lady of Geniture in my chart).

If none of the above, I hope you will try counseling. There are helpful and unhelpful counselors and psychologists, as there are in any profession. But if you find a good one, s/he might help you take those steps more towards the kind of life you want.

BTW, if you would love to play the piano and are in a situation now that could include it, you can always begin as an adult. Venus in Libra would probably enjoy a little music.


Thanks, I will consider it at some point to try counseling.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
You can find Adolf Hitler's chart here https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hitler,_Adolf but obviously any comparisons with your chart are unacceptable. The moon circles the zodiac every month, and Jupiter is in Capricorn for an entire year every 12 years. So obviously there are millions of people with a moon-Jupiter conjunction in Capricorn.

True, a particular placement is seen across countless people but every chart is unique.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Well....I am 45 now....and I havent had sex in my life so far....:surprised:
So, probably my chart will be the best example in this topic :biggrin:
....also I am not into spirituality and stuff

...If you want I can put up my chart here...

However, I dont know which chart to put
- Western;Vedic or any other....
SMB - a member requested your vedic chart
but since this is our traditonal astrology board
moderator quite rightly deleted the vedic chart you posted
but not before it was seen by AJ Astrology
from whom you got the following response

for clarity if you would repost your traditional western chart that would be useful
because your chart would be as you say an excellent example for this topic

kaktuzz online free traditional chart calculation feature
is at https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology
It's the chart conditions, not the planets.

Your chart has Venus in the west. That is one of many conditions that may lead to celibacy, hermitage or delayed marriage.

Understand it is not Venus, it is the location and condition of Venus in your chart. Big difference.

That's an issue of contention between modern and traditional, especially when modern distorts and claims traditionals say Saturn in H7 means no marriage, even though no traditional astrologer has ever said that.

Saturn, under certain conditions in H7, can lead to no marriage. An Aquarian Saturn in H7 is going to get married, probably only once and lasting until death.

A Leo Saturn is hardly the same as an Aquarian Saturn.

You have a Virgo Venus in H8. That is the problem. Not Venus, not Virgo, not H8, but Virgo Venus in H8.

See how that works?

Since it's at 0 deg a lot of traditionals would consider it to be still in H7, but the signification is similar. It's an indicator of celibacy, hermitage or delayed marriage. You just have to read Dorotheus or Maternus or Ibn-Ezra.

The Sun's up in your chart, which is not good for Venus (or Mars) since she likes the night.

There are no aspects to your Venus.

Ruler Mercury is inconjunct in the adjacent H9 with Sun. Venus is not in aspect with Mars and would never perfect the square.

That's what you look at, the chart, not a specific planet.

I would say your Leo Sun/Mercury impacts your views since H9 is spiritual matters, philosophies, ideas, travel and such.
 

SMB

Well-known member
Wow...All of a sudden my chart's in great demand here....:biggrin: Ok...No problem, mate....here you are.....
 

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Domna

Well-known member
I can add my chart as an example as well. I'm 32. Never had sex, never wanted to have sex, and I think it's very unlikely to change at this point... My chart also shares some characteristics with SMB's, so I thought it might be of interest.
 

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conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
It is very difficult to explain this dichotomy of supposed Virgo virgins being playboy centerfolds, probably it alludes to the fact of meticulousness of Virgos to use information, in this case using their sexuality and youngish looks for living keeping it separate from their intimate private lives. Do you think other signs can do this?

Another significant placement that cropped up for the list of prostitutes was the Sun in Capricorn. Leaving behind the mythological and psychological for a second, both signs are of the earth element and my thinking is these placements may go into these professions for pragmatic reasons, and may have less resistance to being seen as a commodity. Other elements may place emotional connection, passion/chemistry or mental stimulation as a big motivator to get sexually involved with someone, where prostitution doesn't need any of those to be present. Some guy wants to get his rocks off, prostitute is offering her services. It's transactional. Then the nature of the business is heavily grounded in the body which the Earth element is more conscious of than any other sign.

Then Virgo is a sign of service, so that Venus in Virgo could be construed as "sexual services".
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Wow...All of a sudden my chart's in great demand here....:biggrin:


Ok...No problem, mate....here you are.....
Thanks for verifying that AJ Astrology is referring to your natal chart
regarding several traditional indicators for potential celibacy
I can add my chart as an example as well.

I'm 32. Never had sex, never wanted to have sex, and I think
it's very unlikely to change at this point
... My chart also shares some characteristics with SMB's, so
I thought it might be of interest.
Thanks Domna :smile:

SMB has an 8th house Venus as well
and both charts are Day Charts


however

Your Venus is in Domicile
whereas SMB Venus is in Depression

nevertheless

neither of these Venus is aspected


lostinstars Venus IS aspected


the following helpful summary of various planetary conditions
was posted by petosiris some time ago


 
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