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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #1  
Unread 07-17-2014, 02:19 AM
Traxxx Traxxx is offline
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Elemental functionality within the chart

Suppose your sun is in leo but your moon/venus/merc/mars in cancer or another water sign. Everyone says that it causes suffocation of the self at least elementary but i don't quite believe it cause there are too many charts of fire suns with water planets under it. There must be a certain way of things to work and a certain clarification, when you're born a leo and you have this order it doesn't make you less of a leo. I believe each sign has it's own way of functioning, especialy the sign of the sun. How would you interpret and combine a chart with this fire/water implement? Could you explain this elemental functionality?

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  #2  
Unread 07-17-2014, 03:26 AM
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sworm09 sworm09 is offline
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Re: Elemental functionality within the chart

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Originally Posted by Traxxx View Post
Suppose your sun is in leo but your moon/venus/merc/mars in cancer or another water sign. Everyone says that it causes suffocation of the self at least elementary but i don't quite believe it cause there are too many charts of fire suns with water planets under it. There must be a certain way of things to work and a certain clarification, when you're born a leo and you have this order it doesn't make you less of a leo. I believe each sign has it's own way of functioning, especialy the sign of the sun. How would you interpret and combine a chart with this fire/water implement? Could you explain this elemental functionality?
Post a chart!

Everyone born on the same day as you as the same configuration, and I bet that they don't all experience it the same way.
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  #3  
Unread 07-17-2014, 07:02 AM
Traxxx Traxxx is offline
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Re: Elemental functionality within the chart

Here is a chart of a sagittarius followed by scorpio everywhere, with mars on 0 degrees in sag! An a cancer accendant.
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  #4  
Unread 07-17-2014, 11:20 PM
Krewster Krewster is offline
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Re: Elemental functionality within the chart

Confusing to comment since your drawn chart is sidereal.

But just to say when dissatisfaction strikes (about using astro factors which are analogies rather than physical objects), you could consider demoting them to a less prioritized position in your synthesis toolbox and elevating another factor(s) to pick up the slack (e.g., aspects).
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  #5  
Unread 07-17-2014, 11:58 PM
Traxxx Traxxx is offline
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Re: Elemental functionality within the chart

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Originally Posted by Krewster View Post
Confusing to comment since your drawn chart is sidereal.

But just to say when dissatisfaction strikes (about using astro factors which are analogies rather than physical objects), you could consider demoting them to a less prioritized position in your synthesis toolbox and elevating another factor(s) to pick up the slack (e.g., aspects).
Youuuuuu are right but aspects are so many that i can't know them by heart as easily as the rest of the clues i have to search too much, do you recognize them instantly?
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  #6  
Unread 07-18-2014, 09:53 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Elemental functionality within the chart

I cast the chart for 2 January 1992, 2040, Detroit and get Leo rising, with a difference of 53’ of arc between the two charts. I’ve checked date and time as well as geographical coordinates. I am using the Lahiri ayanamsa; astrodienst must use another because all positions (for planets and cusps) are of higher degree in the zodiac (+53’) in my chart as compared to the one you posted. I normally use the tropical zodiac, which has a single standard as opposed to the several variants of sidereal zodiac (one of the reasons I don’t use sidereal.) Aha, astrodienst uses Fagan’s ayanamsa.

In this chart there is a clear and powerful predominance of Fire, for there is a stellium in Sagittarius [a stellium is comprised of a minimum of four planets, at least two of which are not Sun, Mercury or Venus] and Jupiter occupies Leo. Adding to the strength of this preponderancee (a stellium plus half of the planets) is the fact that, excepting Saturn who is independent in Capricorn, Sun and Jupiter mutually dispose all other planets, and furthermore Jupiter in Leo is singleton east – awarding him a superlative role in the figure. He is also the only retrograde planet – he’s stationary, and beholds a partile trine to Uranus. I take Jupiter to be the most powerful planet in this chart based on these factors. Jupiter is in Leo, a Fire sign, underscoring the preeminence of this element. [Sun is also quite powerful, based principally on the mutual reception/disposition as well as his important conjunctions, but Jupiter is brought into high focus.]

This is not a complete analysis of the chart, but an analysis of those factors that help us determine the relative strengths of the elements in the chart – clearly Fire. Preponderance – assessed here by: 1. Simple number of planets in each of the four elements, 2. Stellium, 3. Element occupied by preeminent planet, 4. Element occupied by sole dispositor [here by a partial mutual disposition, which is important enough to carry some weight] – is always a primary consideration in any chart. There are many possible kinds of preponderance and when any of them are present they always produce an overtone that influences the operation of the particular features of the chart (individual planets and so forth). This individual will tend to display fiery characteristics in most life situations. If we understand the characteristics of Fire, we can immediately make some general interpretive statements about this individual. In regard to your original question, what is important here are the principles used in ascertaining elemental strength, not the specific steps we took in the analysis of this particular chart.

Air and Earth are weakly represented in the example chart, each of these elements containing only one planet. But Pluto is the most powerfully angular of the planets (6°) and Saturn is independent in his own sign. Small and seemingly insignificant weaknesses can sometimes produce vital effects, as was the case with Achilles' heel.

The Water element is occupied by three planets. Both Moon and Venus are in an inhospitable sign and intercepted in the Fourth as well. Moon-Mercury squares powerful Jupiter; it is the only hard aspect in the map. Mars, lord of Scorpio, has no essential dignity – he is peregrine and beholds no major aspect apart from the cross-sign conjunction. We can see that the Water element is more likely to produce difficulties than not, while Fire is fundamentally favorable. Moon is lord of the horoscope and therefore holds power over the general direction and tenor of the life. The unfavorable last degree of Cancer rises.

I think it is important to ask ourselves, What is the function of the elements in the human psyche? Weak understanding of this and related questions yields weakened ability to interpret the chart. You may find Karen Hamaker-Zondag’s “Elements and Crosses as the Basis of the Horoscope” useful in exploring these questions.

Last edited by greybeard; 07-18-2014 at 09:59 AM.
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  #7  
Unread 07-18-2014, 09:16 PM
Krewster Krewster is offline
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Re: Elemental functionality within the chart

Too many aspects to know them by heart...?

There's what 5 major aspects (and upwards of 10-ish families of minor aspects, depending on where you wanna get off that train)...

Do I recognize them instantly...?

only because I've tweaked the aspect set in my home astro program to display them visually in different colors and with line thickness varying by orb....makes recognizing them and their connections instantly kind of easy, leaving your mental motivation fully-deployable for other tasks like what the heck does each one mean and how to blend their relative orb strengths into a usable prediction...
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  #8  
Unread 07-28-2014, 07:09 PM
Traxxx Traxxx is offline
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Re: Elemental functionality within the chart

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I cast the chart for 2 January 1992, 2040, Detroit and get Leo rising, with a difference of 53’ of arc between the two charts. I’ve checked date and time as well as geographical coordinates. I am using the Lahiri ayanamsa; astrodienst must use another because all positions (for planets and cusps) are of higher degree in the zodiac (+53’) in my chart as compared to the one you posted. I normally use the tropical zodiac, which has a single standard as opposed to the several variants of sidereal zodiac (one of the reasons I don’t use sidereal.) Aha, astrodienst uses Fagan’s ayanamsa.

In this chart there is a clear and powerful predominance of Fire, for there is a stellium in Sagittarius [a stellium is comprised of a minimum of four planets, at least two of which are not Sun, Mercury or Venus] and Jupiter occupies Leo. Adding to the strength of this preponderancee (a stellium plus half of the planets) is the fact that, excepting Saturn who is independent in Capricorn, Sun and Jupiter mutually dispose all other planets, and furthermore Jupiter in Leo is singleton east – awarding him a superlative role in the figure. He is also the only retrograde planet – he’s stationary, and beholds a partile trine to Uranus. I take Jupiter to be the most powerful planet in this chart based on these factors. Jupiter is in Leo, a Fire sign, underscoring the preeminence of this element. [Sun is also quite powerful, based principally on the mutual reception/disposition as well as his important conjunctions, but Jupiter is brought into high focus.]

This is not a complete analysis of the chart, but an analysis of those factors that help us determine the relative strengths of the elements in the chart – clearly Fire. Preponderance – assessed here by: 1. Simple number of planets in each of the four elements, 2. Stellium, 3. Element occupied by preeminent planet, 4. Element occupied by sole dispositor [here by a partial mutual disposition, which is important enough to carry some weight] – is always a primary consideration in any chart. There are many possible kinds of preponderance and when any of them are present they always produce an overtone that influences the operation of the particular features of the chart (individual planets and so forth). This individual will tend to display fiery characteristics in most life situations. If we understand the characteristics of Fire, we can immediately make some general interpretive statements about this individual. In regard to your original question, what is important here are the principles used in ascertaining elemental strength, not the specific steps we took in the analysis of this particular chart.

Air and Earth are weakly represented in the example chart, each of these elements containing only one planet. But Pluto is the most powerfully angular of the planets (6°) and Saturn is independent in his own sign. Small and seemingly insignificant weaknesses can sometimes produce vital effects, as was the case with Achilles' heel.

The Water element is occupied by three planets. Both Moon and Venus are in an inhospitable sign and intercepted in the Fourth as well. Moon-Mercury squares powerful Jupiter; it is the only hard aspect in the map. Mars, lord of Scorpio, has no essential dignity – he is peregrine and beholds no major aspect apart from the cross-sign conjunction. We can see that the Water element is more likely to produce difficulties than not, while Fire is fundamentally favorable. Moon is lord of the horoscope and therefore holds power over the general direction and tenor of the life. The unfavorable last degree of Cancer rises.

I think it is important to ask ourselves, What is the function of the elements in the human psyche? Weak understanding of this and related questions yields weakened ability to interpret the chart. You may find Karen Hamaker-Zondag’s “Elements and Crosses as the Basis of the Horoscope” useful in exploring these questions.

Thank you so much for taking the time!Since fire is the base,what is the effect of the water dominant moon?How does it affect the person's mind or body (actions)?Another examplery case is an aries ruled by cancer mars.
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  #9  
Unread 07-28-2014, 08:11 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Elemental functionality within the chart

I think it is important to ask ourselves, What is the function of the elements in the human psyche? Weak understanding of this and related questions yields weakened ability to interpret the chart. You may find Karen Hamaker-Zondag’s “Elements and Crosses as the Basis of the Horoscope” useful in exploring these questions.

I encourage people to study astrology and the human mind, which in each individual is what creates our destiny. How we perceive the world is how the world is (for each of us). As Marshall McLuhan said, and as Bill O'Reilly loves to say (each of them with a different twist -- spin -- to the words), "Perception is reality."

I have had a couple of very dramatic ("shocking" might be a good word) personal experiences in my life that illuminated the deep meaning and truth of this idea for me.

The elements in a horoscope carry a very close correspondence to Jung's "Thinking, Feeling, Sensational, Intuitive" classifications.... Take the Briggs-Meyers personality evaluation (free on several sites online) and my bet is that you will show up as the Intuitive type (Fire). Read about the evaluation and its implications; study what it shows about you. Water corresponds to the Feeling type.

These types have a lot to do with our perception of the world...our "orientation"...and therefore play a prominent role in how our reality unfolds. They show our "preferred" way of perceiving the world, are for the most part subjective in nature.

Jung, and Briggs-Meyers which came out of and expanded upon Jung, divide all people into two types: extravert and introvert. Most people don't understand the meaning of these terms. They think an extravert is "outgoing", an introvert "inturned," which is true to some extent. But that is not at all the real and deeper meaning.

I am not a trained psychologist. I dislike most western psychological theory, with Jung and Perls two exceptions to this distaste. Personally, I lean more toward Hindu/Buddhist "psychology" and a practical, behavioral approach to psychological imbalance. I want to know "what to do about me," and am not much interested in developing theoretical "knowledge" about myself. Perls studies and theories had a lot to do with perception -- Gestalt psychology. The horoscope is a person's Gestalt.

So I will leave your question unanswered. I have pointed to several resources both astrological and psychological that I have found useful in coming to terms with myself over the years. It is your choice whether to pursue them in your quest for self-understanding and realization.
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  #10  
Unread 07-28-2014, 08:37 PM
Traxxx Traxxx is offline
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Re: Elemental functionality within the chart

I'll check them out for sure People give a frightening meaning when they say water vanishes fire.As if your sun (self) is going to drawn and you'll stay dead underwater without a self!Anyway people on this site are somewhat unfriendly I'm off to look for your suggestions.
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  #11  
Unread 07-28-2014, 08:59 PM
Traxxx Traxxx is offline
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Re: Elemental functionality within the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I think it is important to ask ourselves, What is the function of the elements in the human psyche? Weak understanding of this and related questions yields weakened ability to interpret the chart. You may find Karen Hamaker-Zondag’s “Elements and Crosses as the Basis of the Horoscope” useful in exploring these questions.

I encourage people to study astrology and the human mind, which in each individual is what creates our destiny. How we perceive the world is how the world is (for each of us). As Marshall McLuhan said, and as Bill O'Reilly loves to say (each of them with a different twist -- spin -- to the words), "Perception is reality."

I have had a couple of very dramatic ("shocking" might be a good word) personal experiences in my life that illuminated the deep meaning and truth of this idea for me.

The elements in a horoscope carry a very close correspondence to Jung's "Thinking, Feeling, Sensational, Intuitive" classifications.... Take the Briggs-Meyers personality evaluation (free on several sites online) and my bet is that you will show up as the Intuitive type (Fire). Read about the evaluation and its implications; study what it shows about you. Water corresponds to the Feeling type.

These types have a lot to do with our perception of the world...our "orientation"...and therefore play a prominent role in how our reality unfolds. They show our "preferred" way of perceiving the world, are for the most part subjective in nature.

Jung, and Briggs-Meyers which came out of and expanded upon Jung, divide all people into two types: extravert and introvert. Most people don't understand the meaning of these terms. They think an extravert is "outgoing", an introvert "inturned," which is true to some extent. But that is not at all the real and deeper meaning.

I am not a trained psychologist. I dislike most western psychological theory, with Jung and Perls two exceptions to this distaste. Personally, I lean more toward Hindu/Buddhist "psychology" and a practical, behavioral approach to psychological imbalance. I want to know "what to do about me," and am not much interested in developing theoretical "knowledge" about myself. Perls studies and theories had a lot to do with perception -- Gestalt psychology. The horoscope is a person's Gestalt.

So I will leave your question unanswered. I have pointed to several resources both astrological and psychological that I have found useful in coming to terms with myself over the years. It is your choice whether to pursue them in your quest for self-understanding and realization.

LOOK WHAT I SCORED.... You have marginal or no preference of Sensing over Intuition (1%) YOU GOT IT RIGHT!
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  #12  
Unread 07-29-2014, 04:20 PM
jupiterianguru jupiterianguru is offline
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Re: Elemental functionality within the chart

Doesn't sun in fire sign overshadow some of the other things in the chart, cause the element makes the sun powerful. With that said the sun is only the ego and where a persons intrests is its not the full personality of the individual in my opinion. You would have to look to the ruling planet of the chart to find the full personality. What about aspects to the sun that can change it in a way as well. A sun in Leo conjunct Pluto or moon would be a little water like for example.
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