Confusing natal chart

Osamenor · Apr 28, 2015

heidy26 said:
Here's how I see it:
The trine here signifies that exploring deep hidden nature and find deep intimacy is in good aspect with giving and receiving. So the trine suggests that nurturing in Scorpio way is what makes the aspect good.
Now, regarding the housing, the trine can suggest that communicating with others is what will establish and improve a public reputation and identity.
Practical, the aspect may indicate a serious relationship that will improve one's social condition and reputation. Giving the fact that Venus is involved, most likely a lucky romantic relationship.
Let me know your feedback on my interpretation, you know I am a beginner.

It certainly could play out that way, although there are likely other ways as well. For instance, you mentioned a strong interest in psychology, and that it's something you would prefer to pursue as a career. That fits very well with both your third house/Scorpio and your tenth house/Cancer placements.

And, Jupiter is the scholar's planet as well as the lucky planet... its placement says something about your approach to learning. I had an astrologer tell me I'm a "secret scholar" because my Jupiter is on the IC. Since yours is in the highly visible tenth house, you're probably not such a secret scholar! You might be inclined to pursue a high degree, recognition for your learning... or perhaps to become known for your contributions to learning, whether or not formal education is the context. Pioneering a new theory of psychology or method of treatment or teaching method might be an example of that.

heidy26 said:
I can tell you one thing: this is what impacts relationships.
The aspects suggests difficulties in establishing healthy relationships due to misjudgements.
Since the aspect is made between self and others, it is a permanent conflict between opening to others and running away.

Interesting... and I certainly have that conflict myself! I also have Capricorn rising and Saturn in the seventh house, which seems to result in greater need for boundaries and greater need for deep trust before I let someone in. Casual friendships are easy for me, and even friendships with some degree of closeness, but very deep, intimate friendships are a rare occurrence, and romantic relationships also fall into that boat. I can't be physically intimate with someone if I'm not also emotionally intimate with them, and I can't be emotionally intimate without deeply trusting them, and it takes a lot to form deep trust.

heidy26 said:
This aspect is all about what you like versus what you need. So, you like practicality and earthly approach for serving yourself and others that will help to grow and self transform.
What you need is actually exploring and discovering life with the help of others behind the scenes.

What strikes me upon reading this is that those are not mutually exclusive. And, you just gave me an aha moment, seeing how the eighth house can both support (trine) and conflict with (square) the twelfth house moon. Growth and self transformation are messages of both houses, but Sagittarius has a very different approach to that from Virgo, and Leo's way resonates more strongly with Sag.

However, Virgo and Sagittarius are both about learning. Sagittarius is about exploring everything and checking it all out, while Virgo is more focused: I want to learn how to do this specific thing. I never thought about it before, but maybe that's why I love tai chi so much. It satisfies my Virgo need to work on perfecting something and my Sagittarius need to simply learn and do without necessarily having a specific goal... and my Aries Jupiter need for challenges that make me learn and expand... and my eighth house Leo need for personal growth.

In the context of a romantic relationship, yes, doing practical things for my partner is one of my tendencies... and so is the need to do adventurous things together.

heidy26 · Apr 29, 2015

Osamenor said:
It certainly could play out that way, although there are likely other ways as well. For instance, you mentioned a strong interest in psychology, and that it's something you would prefer to pursue as a career. That fits very well with both your third house/Scorpio and your tenth house/Cancer placements.

And, Jupiter is the scholar's planet as well as the lucky planet... its placement says something about your approach to learning. I had an astrologer tell me I'm a "secret scholar" because my Jupiter is on the IC. Since yours is in the highly visible tenth house, you're probably not such a secret scholar! You might be inclined to pursue a high degree, recognition for your learning... or perhaps to become known for your contributions to learning, whether or not formal education is the context. Pioneering a new theory of psychology or method of treatment or teaching method might be an example of that.

Perhaps. But it seems that Venus does not fit this entirely, it only fits the way it interacts with others. Venus is not deep, so the psychology traits are not revealed by it; Venus is aesthetic.
It can only fit if it refers to a talent such as architect, painter [drawing not my thing, I am the worst drawer ever], poetry, musical voice.
I have some of that poetry and musical voice skill [more writing abilities than musical voice

], but I don't think I will make a living out of poetry and novels. My Virgo rising is not letting me, I am much more practical than it seems.
So my guess is that, whatever Jupiter gives here [teaching/luck], it is more likely to be related to romance.

Just my POV.

Osamenor said:
Interesting... and I certainly have that conflict myself! I also have Capricorn rising and Saturn in the seventh house, which seems to result in greater need for boundaries and greater need for deep trust before I let someone in. Casual friendships are easy for me, and even friendships with some degree of closeness, but very deep, intimate friendships are a rare occurrence, and romantic relationships also fall into that boat. I can't be physically intimate with someone if I'm not also emotionally intimate with them, and I can't be emotionally intimate without deeply trusting them, and it takes a lot to form deep trust.

Yes, well there you go. Capricorn rising and Saturn in the 7th house. Well, that explains a lot.
Saturn is all about firm and secure establishments, that fits very well with your way of seeing relationships.
And also, that Venus in Virgo fits very well with this need for security, trust in relationships.
But the Moon wants to open up, to explore, not to wait around for forming real bonds.

You said that there is a trine between Moon and Sun, what are the aspects that Venus makes with your Sun or Saturn ?

Osamenor said:
What strikes me upon reading this is that those are not mutually exclusive. And, you just gave me an aha moment, seeing how the eighth house can both support (trine) and conflict with (square) the twelfth house moon. Growth and self transformation are messages of both houses, but Sagittarius has a very different approach to that from Virgo, and Leo's way resonates more strongly with Sag.

However, Virgo and Sagittarius are both about learning. Sagittarius is about exploring everything and checking it all out, while Virgo is more focused: I want to learn how to do this specific thing. I never thought about it before, but maybe that's why I love tai chi so much. It satisfies my Virgo need to work on perfecting something and my Sagittarius need to simply learn and do without necessarily having a specific goal... and my Aries Jupiter need for challenges that make me learn and expand... and my eighth house Leo need for personal growth.

Yes, you are correct. What about other things you like that can satisfy all these needs ?

Osamenor said:
In the context of a romantic relationship, yes, doing practical things for my partner is one of my tendencies... and so is the need to do adventurous things together.

But there is also the conflict: what you like to do/expect for/from your partner is not what you need. What you need to do must be taken from the relationship, practiced privately and then released in a improved way.
To find the balance between these things means to release the improved behaviors and feelings in a practical way and this will also be harmonious if you find a partner with the same approach.
With your Saturnian nature, you can find your wish in someone older, wiser, maybe. Or someone who can inspire trust and security.

Hope I gave you a new perspective, at least. :joyful:

Osamenor · Apr 29, 2015

heidy26 said:
Perhaps. But it seems that Venus does not fit this entirely, it only fits the way it interacts with others. Venus is not deep, so the psychology traits are not revealed by it; Venus is aesthetic.
It can only fit if it refers to a talent such as architect, painter [drawing not my thing, I am the worst drawer ever], poetry, musical voice.

Not so. All the planets can be deep. Shallow Venus is just its shadow side. An unhealthy response to Venus energy might make a person shallow, only concerned with superficial beauty. But a healthy response allows for its depth. Poetry, art, and music go deep. Venus also indicates interpersonal skills, and interpersonal interactions that bring out what's in the depths of each person. It's very well matched with psychology, or teaching and learning, or romance, or deep platonic friendship, because all of those things are examples of that kind of interaction.

heidy26 said:
I have some of that poetry and musical voice skill [more writing abilities than musical voice ], but I don't think I will make a living out of poetry and novels. My Virgo rising is not letting me, I am much more practical than it seems.

Virgo rising is actually very, very good for making a living out of poetry and novels. It's extremely common for professional writers to have significant Virgo placements. I just looked up several famous writers I could remember off the top of my head, and all but one of them had Virgo rising, Virgo sun and/or moon, or significant planetary placements in Virgo. For the only one who did not, the time of birth is unknown, so it's possible that Virgo actually played a stronger part in his chart than we know.

Virgo highlights in the birth chart usually provide good verbal skills, and also the desire to perfect a craft. That's exactly what a writer needs.

heidy26 said:
You said that there is a trine between Moon and Sun, what are the aspects that Venus makes with your Sun or Saturn ?

None. It's out of orb for aspects with either of them.

heidy26 said:
But there is also the conflict: what you like to do/expect for/from your partner is not what you need.

I don't think that's true for me.

heidy26 said:
With your Saturnian nature, you can find your wish in someone older, wiser, maybe. Or someone who can inspire trust and security.

Trust and security, yes. Older, no. I adamantly prefer people who are within a few years of my age. Although, as I've gotten older, my definition of "within a few years of my age" has expanded. Someone ten years older than me wouldn't be too old now, and someone ten years younger than me wouldn't be too young. I didn't always feel that way, because when you're younger, a ten year age difference is a much bigger difference in life experiences and expectations than it is when you're within sight of 40!

heidy26 · May 3, 2015

Osamenor said:
Virgo rising is actually very, very good for making a living out of poetry and novels. It's extremely common for professional writers to have significant Virgo placements. I just looked up several famous writers I could remember off the top of my head, and all but one of them had Virgo rising, Virgo sun and/or moon, or significant planetary placements in Virgo. For the only one who did not, the time of birth is unknown, so it's possible that Virgo actually played a stronger part in his chart than we know.

Virgo highlights in the birth chart usually provide good verbal skills, and also the desire to perfect a craft. That's exactly what a writer needs.

It might be, but not for me. When I said that my Virgo rising is too practical, I meant it. For me, making a living from what Venus has offered me, is not an option. Except psychology [which is not only related to my Venus placement], I really can't see myself perfecting another craft.

Osamenor said:
I don't think that's true for me.

That's what that square signifies. Maybe if you go deeply, you will find what exactly the tension is if you say that that's not true for you.
It is a tension alright and the meaning of it cannot be deciphered without further knowledge of how your relationships went until present.
With a proper analysis you will eventually find the problem.
This got me thinking a lot to what mistakes I am making when interacting with partners; I cannot find which other aspects are making me to blow things up since my relationships are always failed. Maybe there's something I missed in my chart.

Osamenor said:
Trust and security, yes. Older, no. I adamantly prefer people who are within a few years of my age. Although, as I've gotten older, my definition of "within a few years of my age" has expanded. Someone ten years older than me wouldn't be too old now, and someone ten years younger than me wouldn't be too young. I didn't always feel that way, because when you're younger, a ten year age difference is a much bigger difference in life experiences and expectations than it is when you're within sight of 40!

I have a feeling that you are currently analyzing your romantic life and reestablishing things.
The way you see things always reflects the way things actually are; so whatever you aknowledge about yourself and the way you see yourself will be what others see too.
It doesn't matter what you are, how old you are, but the way you feel about yourself.

JUPITERASC · May 3, 2015

heidy26 said:
Well, this 'Earth as a juvie prison' is a theory about reincarnation and karma, actually.
It is said that Earth is the worst juvie prison due to fact that no other place is as bad as here. Pain, suffering, pure evil of people.
Souls are sent here to learn their lessons and the cycle repeats over and over again if the growing is not done and the lessons are not understood. That is reincarnation all about.
If the lessons are learnt, then each life cycle will bring you to next lesson until you are fully evolved and self-aware. That's when you move to a new place, a whole evolved and pure place, very different from this one.
It is believed that experiencing here is the very basic of our learning; and there are a lot of places, but none of them are as bad as this is.
It is also believed that angels are sent here, too: the ones that need to learn some lessons, or the fallen ones. When they reach this place and see all the suffering and the hurt, most of them commit suicide, because it's too much to bear.
I heard this theory ages ago from someone who practiced astrology and a lot of other 'spiritual stuff'. I abided to this theory because I do feel that there is a difference between us, souls: there are souls who are fully evolved, souls who are evolved, but not as far as done with their learning and raw souls, on their very first lessons. It is impossible to not notice it, if you are aware of spiritual things.

because life is transient,
events are ultimately unsatisfactory due to impermanence:
also we reap the result of our actions (karma).
and so we suffer due to our ignorance of understanding the consequences of our actions

i.e.
'karma' means 'action'
actions have consequences

however
by constantly experiencing and learning, our suffering eases

To be clear then, karma means action.
We have done things during the past
and we are doing things during our current life
and all of our actions, past and present, have consequences,

However, not all of our actions from the past have produced immediate consequences.

Similarly, not all of our actions from our current life necessarily produce consequences during our current life.

because
karma has been compared to a seed which ripens when conditions support its growth
- because our actions produce their consequences when conditions support the occurrence of those consequences.

It is possible that some consequences of our actions from the past shall remain dormant even in this current life.
It is equally possible we are experiencing some consequences of actions done in the past.
And it is possible that we shall experience the consequences of actions done in our current lives in some future life.

keep in mind that
because we do not exist in total isolation,
our personal karma is linked with the karma or actions of others
because we are all interdependent.

Our experience of the consequences of our actions
(whenever it was that we did those actions),
is clearly dependent on multiple factors

and remember
THE PRESENT HAS THE POWER https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO1TcckJBGw

heidy26 · May 3, 2015

JUPITERASC said:
To be clear then, karma means action.
We have done things during the past
and we are doing things during our current life
and all of our actions, past and present, have consequences,

However, not all of our actions from the past have produced immediate consequences.

Similarly, not all of our actions from our current life necessarily produce consequences during our current life.

This brought me my all time thinking quote: no good deed remains unpunished.
I've always wondered if this saying is actually true and just yesterday I had this discussion with a friend.
From my POV, it's false, I've never actually seen it happen and the funniest thing is my realization on the fact that karma only acts in one direction: bad things that you've done have consequences.

JUPITERASC · May 3, 2015

heidy26 said:
This brought me my all time thinking quote: no good deed remains unpunished.
I've always wondered if this saying is actually true and just yesterday I had this discussion with a friend.
From my POV, it's false,
I've never actually seen it happen and the funniest thing is my realization on the fact that karma only acts in one direction:
bad things that you've done have consequences.

Nevertheless

'things you have never actually seen happen'
others have seen happen
there are at least seven billion human beings to witness events

heidy26 · May 3, 2015

JUPITERASC said:
Nevertheless

'things you have never actually seen happen'
others have seen happen
there are at least seven billion human beings to witness events

Others' experience is not my experience. I don't believe in fairy tales.
I know you have to believe in something to make it true, but I also believe that you need a proof to believe, mainly due to the strong presence of Saturn in my chart.
Btw, do you have any knowledge of yods and cradles ? I'm interested in how can you maximize the benefits in these configurations.

JUPITERASC · May 3, 2015

heidy26 said:
Others' experience is not my experience. I don't believe in fairy tales.

Since you can dismiss so easily the experiences of seven billion others as 'fairy tales'
then these seven billion others can similarly dismiss your experiences as 'fairy tales' ~ so far as they are concerned

because equally
to these seven billion others
your experience is not their experience either

heidy26 said:
I know you have to believe in something to make it true,
but I also believe that you need a proof to believe,

Believing something does not necessarily make it true
Many believe the earth is flat
others believe the earth is round
what 'is true' for some is not 'true' for others

as for needing proof for belief
ON THE CONTRARY
the essence of belief is
that belief does not require proof

i.e.
for example
children believe in 'fairy tales' without requiring any proof

Something that is proven is a fact

and
facts do not require belief

facts are simply facts

i.e.
facts are based on evidence

but
belief does not require evidence

HOWEVER

there are differences of opinion regarding what is or is not a 'proven fact'

heidy26 said:
....mainly due to the strong presence of Saturn in my chart.

Btw, do you have any knowledge of yods and cradles ?
I'm interested in how can you maximize the benefits in these configurations.

I have no evidence regarding whether yods and cradles are
or are not
'fairy tales'

Osamenor · May 3, 2015

heidy26 said:
It is a tension alright and the meaning of it cannot be deciphered without further knowledge of how your relationships went until present.
With a proper analysis you will eventually find the problem.

I don't feel relationships are a key problem for me. I've been single for several years now, since the one longterm relationship I had ended, and not really wanted to date. With my earthy placements in that arena--Saturn in the 7th, Venus retrograde in Virgo, and Capricorn rising to boot--it's no surprise that I'm comfortable with singlehood. That doesn't mean I'd never desire a relationship and never have any issues with it, just that for a good portion of my life, other things have felt more important.

I'm very much like Katniss Everdeen (if you haven't read the Hunger Games series, that's what I'm referring to), who's almost completely oblivious to two different guys being in love with her and to herself having feelings for both of them. I rarely realize that someone likes me or I like him, in that way, til it hits me over the head! That's been true ever since I was a teenager. Or, really, even younger. When I was nine years old, I went to sleep away camp for the first time, and there was a boy there who "liked" me... and I walked with him holding hands thinking it meant nothing more than holding a friend's hand to cross the street.

heidy26 said:
This got me thinking a lot to what mistakes I am making when interacting with partners; I cannot find which other aspects are making me to blow things up since my relationships are always failed. Maybe there's something I missed in my chart.

If it is related to your birth chart, the likely explanation is that you're not living your own life in a way that would bring you the kind of partner your chart indicates you need. Several months ago, I was in a discussion in this forum with someone who had exactly that problem. She had been attracting, and dating, people very different from the kind of person her seventh house indicated, and those relationships always failed within a few months at most. For her, the solution we ended up discussing was to stop dating for a certain period of time while she worked on her own self growth, to bring herself into a space where she would attract the right kind of person... but to attract the right kind of person, she'd have to be the right kind of person. That's true for everyone.

It sounds like the Piscean kind of person, which your seventh house indicates, resonates for you. But even if you have been dating "Pisces" types, are they the right kind of Pisces type? There are many ways the traits indicated by that sign could manifest, some very healthy, some extremely unhealthy. If you're attracting people who manifest those qualities in a not so healthy way, it might help to re-evaluate the way you're living. To attract the right person, you have to be the right person... and to be the right person, you have to be living your life in a way that's right for you.

heidy26 said:
I have a feeling that you are currently analyzing your romantic life and reestablishing things.
The way you see things always reflects the way things actually are; so whatever you aknowledge about yourself and the way you see yourself will be what others see too.
It doesn't matter what you are, how old you are, but the way you feel about yourself.

Analyzing and reestablishing things, yes. Romantic life isn't so important for me at the moment, but in general, that's exactly what I'm doing.

heidy26 · May 3, 2015

Osamenor said:
I don't feel relationships are a key problem for me. I've been single for several years now, since the one longterm relationship I had ended, and not really wanted to date. With my earthy placements in that arena--Saturn in the 7th, Venus retrograde in Virgo, and Capricorn rising to boot--it's no surprise that I'm comfortable with singlehood. That doesn't mean I'd never desire a relationship and never have any issues with it, just that for a good portion of my life, other things have felt more important.

Well, you do sound a lot like me. I have a lot of earth in my chart, too.
The problem is that within my chart, the earth is not everything -- I do have other elements too. So it makes me feel about love like you are on one hand and to want it -- on the other hand.

Osamenor said:
I'm very much like Katniss Everdeen (if you haven't read the Hunger Games series, that's what I'm referring to), who's almost completely oblivious to two different guys being in love with her and to herself having feelings for both of them. I rarely realize that someone likes me or I like him, in that way, til it hits me over the head! That's been true ever since I was a teenager. Or, really, even younger. When I was nine years old, I went to sleep away camp for the first time, and there was a boy there who "liked" me... and I walked with him holding hands thinking it meant nothing more than holding a friend's hand to cross the street.

That's good on one hand, but it's very bad for your love life.

Osamenor said:
If it is related to your birth chart, the likely explanation is that you're not living your own life in a way that would bring you the kind of partner your chart indicates you need. Several months ago, I was in a discussion in this forum with someone who had exactly that problem. She had been attracting, and dating, people very different from the kind of person her seventh house indicated, and those relationships always failed within a few months at most. For her, the solution we ended up discussing was to stop dating for a certain period of time while she worked on her own self growth, to bring herself into a space where she would attract the right kind of person... but to attract the right kind of person, she'd have to be the right kind of person. That's true for everyone.

It sounds like the Piscean kind of person, which your seventh house indicates, resonates for you. But even if you have been dating "Pisces" types, are they the right kind of Pisces type? There are many ways the traits indicated by that sign could manifest, some very healthy, some extremely unhealthy. If you're attracting people who manifest those qualities in a not so healthy way, it might help to re-evaluate the way you're living. To attract the right person, you have to be the right person... and to be the right person, you have to be living your life in a way that's right for you.

About that.... what can you tell me about my T square involving the Sun as apex ? This means that my social identity is the way the T square is released and is a lesson I will have for my whole life. Which is worrying.
I came to the conclusion that this is a cause and I want to know how to release the stress out because I don't want to wait my whole life to learn how to use this aspect at it's best.

Osamenor said:
Analyzing and reestablishing things, yes. Romantic life isn't so important for me at the moment, but in general, that's exactly what I'm doing.

Well, then it seems I have a good intuition...I'll tell you more.

heidy26 · May 3, 2015

JUPITERASC said:
Since you can dismiss so easily the experiences of seven billion others as 'fairy tales'
then these seven billion others can similarly dismiss your experiences as 'fairy tales' ~ so far as they are concerned

because equally
to these seven billion others
your experience is not their experience either

Believing something does not necessarily make it true
Many believe the earth is flat
others believe the earth is round
what 'is true' for some is not 'true' for others

as for needing proof for belief
ON THE CONTRARY
the essence of belief is
that belief does not require proof

I only relate the world to my experience. It's the only thing that helps me improve myself.
What you are saying is like you took a C at a test ad you are comforting yourself by saying 'X took an E' instead of thinking you weren't good enough to take an A.

JUPITERASC said:

I have no evidence regarding whether yods and cradles are
or are not
'fairy tales'

Click to expand...

Yods and cradles are chart patterns.

Osamenor · May 16, 2015

heidy26 said:
About that.... what can you tell me about my T square involving the Sun as apex ? This means that my social identity is the way the T square is released and is a lesson I will have for my whole life.

I struggle with that, because I have a T-square prominent in my own chart, and the aspects I have myself are the hardest for me to learn! But I was just in another discussion where it was very obvious to me how a square in someone else's chart was playing out, so I think I have some better sense of it now.

Squares and oppositions are challenging aspects. Challenge, can, of course, be a good or bad thing: too much challenge, overwhelming, or good challenge. Good challenge is one you rise to and use to improve yourself, like taking a demanding class, or playing a competitive sport.

Planets in square challenge each other. Since every point on your t-square involves multiple planets (except Jupiter, but even it has Chiron in the mix), it's like they're teams challenging each other to a match. Since the match is being played in your own psyche, the goal isn't for one team to win, but for all the teams to play a good game and develop their strengths.

Planets in opposition also challenge each other, but in a somewhat different way. It's more like they're playing tug-of-war, or on a see-saw. Oppositions pull on each other, squares create friction with each other. A strong response to the energies in a t-square is to develop each point of the t-square. Your basic sense and expression of self (sun/Mercury/Mars) is quite distinct from your public reputation (Jupiter/Chiron) and your deep rooted beliefs (Neptune/Uranus/Saturn). The key is to develop all of those things in a way that allows for the distinction and strengthens all of them.

heidy26 · Jun 23, 2015

Osamenor said:
Your basic sense and expression of self (sun/Mercury/Mars) is quite distinct from your public reputation (Jupiter/Chiron) and your deep rooted beliefs (Neptune/Uranus/Saturn). The key is to develop all of those things in a way that allows for the distinction and strengthens all of them.

I think I know now what this means.
My basic sense and expression of self is warm, affectionate, intense, passionate, dreamy, very sensitive. Out there, in the real world, I am cold, analytical, strong, assertive [even to the point of getting aggressive].

People always sense me as aloof, heartless, detached, secretive and that they should not care or even try to find out what I do, even my own mother told me this.
That pretty much relates to my lonely Moon in h12 and the aspects it makes. The square to Pluto burns all bridges and even if on the inside i am lava and steam and my emotions can kill anybody, on the outside I am the opposition of it. I've been through a lot of awful experiences and people are a subject that I will always throw away to keep me safe; I don't trust them and I don't want to be hurt anymore.

The placement of my Moon makes me the loner I am, the kind of person that enjoys the company of own self and doesn't like social contacts; also, this placement makes me integrate all my emotional life to 'i don't know/can't put to words/can't describe' section, even to myself.

My deep rooted beliefs cannot be described into modern/traditional choice, but to principles regarding moral beliefs and way of doing things and acting in general. I have a strong pattern imprinted in my psyche and as I've read several times on cookbook astrology, 'any try of deviating from these principles will bring tremendous pain and suffering to the subject'.

I never knew how to put these in words and connect it to myself [12h Moon, i don't know what I am/feel/want, remember ?], but now I know: I like new ideas and adapting, i want to adapt modern things into my being and i want/ask for opinions to others to change myself. I would definitely want to do it, but guess what my t-square says: you [will] are open to change [principles/beliefs] and try hard to do it so in this way. Want to know a secret ? Can't do it.

It hurts like hell and turns me into a storm when others try to pass over my principles. I get to the point where my anger grows rapidly and changes into violence. Done it a lot of times [not doing it anymore, of course].

Let's sum up:
I am in a way that clashes with what others see.
I like and want to change myself by adapting and reaching to other beliefs and principles which clashes with what I have imprinted in my mind.
My principles and beliefs interfere with what people think of me and I often
switch between what they see to what I believe. What I believe is opposed to how they perceive me, confusing them even more.

T-square explanation:
Starting to trust people and showing them my soft side, allowing them to get close to me is something I have to do. It's the key to improving my social and personal relationships.
Changing my principles/beliefs and evolving [cause this is the actual purpose of changing them, to evolve !] can only be done by myself. No other way.

To relate this, have you seen House md tv series ? If not, I'll give you the clue: House was a brilliant person/doctor. His only nurturing and trusting [but dysfunctional relationship] was with his friend, Wilson. Wilson was the only one who could trigger in him astonishing conclusions and answers that led to saving lives.
My principles/beliefs can change and heal people's lives. I changed so many people...I am not trying to be cocky, this is the truth. This is how people see me as the golden piece.

I have to TRUST people and open up. They will return the favor.
Exposing my beliefs, caring about them and letting them to do the same will change their lives and heal their sorrows and this is how I GROW MY REPUTATION and climb up on the social ladder.

By talking to people, they will provide me KEYwords [small talk, doesn't matter what kind of conversations we have] that once being analyzed by my genuine brain they will trigger in me answers and conclusions that will improve and change my principles and beliefs and HEAL ME the way Wilson did for House. And this is how I EVOLVE.

Nothing can be done without PEOPLE [accurate translation

)) ], my wise friend says many times. She is right, perfectly right !

The key for solving the T-square lies in my emotions. If I know what I want, feel, need and how to express it, I can work on it. And here we go again to my loner and hidden Moon and the squares it makes....any thoughts on this ? Give me clues to work with, please ! :innocent:

God has an elevated sense of humor. I admire Him for that. He gave me the biggest challenge ever. I feel your smile, dear God...

Osamenor · Jun 25, 2015

heidy26 said:
People always sense me as aloof, heartless, detached, secretive and that they should not care or even try to find out what I do, even my own mother told me this.
That pretty much relates to my lonely Moon in h12 and the aspects it makes. The square to Pluto burns all bridges and even if on the inside i am lava and steam and my emotions can kill anybody, on the outside I am the opposition of it. I've been through a lot of awful experiences and people are a subject that I will always throw away to keep me safe; I don't trust them and I don't want to be hurt anymore.

The placement of my Moon makes me the loner I am, the kind of person that enjoys the company of own self and doesn't like social contacts; also, this placement makes me integrate all my emotional life to 'i don't know/can't put to words/can't describe' section, even to myself.

Interesting. I have some similar (though certainly not identical) experiences, and I'm also a twelfth house moon... and fire sign moon, too (Sagittarius for me). I don't have Pluto square my moon, but I do have Venus in square to it, which you also have, only your Venus/Moon square is tighter than mine.

heidy26 said:
My deep rooted beliefs cannot be described into modern/traditional choice, but to principles regarding moral beliefs and way of doing things and acting in general. I have a strong pattern imprinted in my psyche and as I've read several times on cookbook astrology, 'any try of deviating from these principles will bring tremendous pain and suffering to the subject'.

Once in a while, cookbook astrology is actually right.

This cookbook analogy made me think of this: astrology is indeed a recipe. Often, individual ingredients don't stand out in the final creation. Many dishes include onions but don't taste particularly oniony, although if the onion were left out, you would notice the difference. However, some onion dishes do showcase the onion... onion soup, for instance. I think cookbook astrology is like that. The actual person and their life experiences won't always look much like cookbook descriptions of their chart, but some ingredients stand out.

heidy26 said:
And here we go again to my loner and hidden Moon and the squares it makes....any thoughts on this ? Give me clues to work with, please !

I would think that loner and hidden Moon would manifest through its sign. Here's how I see my twelfth house moon manifesting: strong Sagittarian impulses. I love learning (though not formal education so much), new experiences, meeting people different from me (ie people from foreign cultures, speaking different languages), and the kinds of things that lead to personal growth. I really feel the influence of my grand trine here: Moon trine Sun in Leo (personal growth) and Jupiter in Aries (expansive challenges).

Your moon doesn't have any trines, but it does have that square. Again, each planet involved in that square can sharpen its expression by means of friction against the others. Your Pluto and Venus are involved in communication with others, finding hidden things, seeking intimacy. Your Moon has a very different agenda: grow the self (Leo) from a hidden place (twelfth house).

Seems that your Leo moon is a shy cat. I think of Leo itself as like a cat: loving luxury, but simple luxuries (a cat doesn't care whether it has a silk cushion or a ratty blanket to sleep on, just luxuriates on whatever is comfortable), loving attention and giving back generously when attention is given (there's nothing much more pleasant than a purring cat), but some cats are gregarious and some are shy. A shy cat will hide except when a trustworthy person is near, and will only approach people who give it the space to decide if they're trustworthy. But even shy cats need to be loved, and even shy cats will seek certain people's attention.

heidy26 · Jun 26, 2015

Osamenor said:
Interesting. I have some similar (though certainly not identical) experiences, and I'm also a twelfth house moon... and fire sign moon, too (Sagittarius for me). I don't have Pluto square my moon, but I do have Venus in square to it, which you also have, only your Venus/Moon square is tighter than mine.

Moon in 12th house is the most detached emotional expression. The downside of this is that the detachment is also directed towards self.
The emotional awareness is very low and this causes a lot of troubles.
Thinking back at my relationships with others, I realized that I never knew what I feel or how much I feel. This goes on the same way in the present.

Osamenor said:
Seems that your Leo moon is a shy cat. I think of Leo itself as like a cat: loving luxury, but simple luxuries (a cat doesn't care whether it has a silk cushion or a ratty blanket to sleep on, just luxuriates on whatever is comfortable), loving attention and giving back generously when attention is given (there's nothing much more pleasant than a purring cat), but some cats are gregarious and some are shy. A shy cat will hide except when a trustworthy person is near, and will only approach people who give it the space to decide if they're trustworthy. But even shy cats need to be loved, and even shy cats will seek certain people's attention.

Yes, it's true. But the hard part is not how to open to others, but how to be aware of my needs, feelings and what I want. If you ask me what I would want from a lover, my answer will be "I don't know. To be male. And to love me" or what do you want "I don't know. I want to be happy, but I can't describe it in words."

This is the problem with this placement. Can you honestly tell me you know what you want or what you need or that you can quantify the feelings you have for the people dear to you ?

I can't. I realized that I haven't even been aware my whole life of my feelings for my own mother , which in this placement it's a very sensitive subject, 12h Moon always identifies with the mother and forms an invisible cord with her. I knew that I loved her, but how much ?

Only now I found out that very much. She was my idol, her pain was my pain, her happiness was my happiness and she is the main reason I shut myself from people. I watched her suffer and her suffering hurt me the most, no own personal experience traumatized me as much. This reflects in my love relationships and not only.

The only thing I found as a solution to the problem is introspection. A lot of introspection. I thought there must be another way to acknowledge your emotions.

Maybe I can discover a way to release the powerful intensity flow [Moon sq Pluto], a way of not repressing emotions [which is common here, repressing emotions is a 12h Moon trait].

This is where the help is needed.

Now regarding the Moon sq Venus problem, here's something interesting: Venus is attracted by a type, but can't form emotional attachment to what desires. Moon can form emotional attachment but is not attracted by that person. So here lies the dilemma.

A solution here is to either choose one of them at the expense of other or to have one, then another. Like choosing emotional bond and waiting for the attraction to come naturally.

People tend to choose one of these solutions. There is however a third one, which means having two relationships, one with what Venus wants, the other with what Moon wants, at the same time. :lol:

I also found out that to have a long term relationship with this aspect, you need to find a person with rising/Sun in the Moon sign you have [Leo in my case] that also makes aspects to your Venus so that the attraction can exist.

Osamenor · Jun 26, 2015

heidy26 said:
Moon in 12th house is the most detached emotional expression. The downside of this is that the detachment is also directed towards self.
The emotional awareness is very low and this causes a lot of troubles.
Thinking back at my relationships with others, I realized that I never knew what I feel or how much I feel. This goes on the same way in the present.

Yes, it's true. But the hard part is not how to open to others, but how to be aware of my needs, feelings and what I want. If you ask me what I would want from a lover, my answer will be "I don't know. To be male. And to love me" or what do you want "I don't know. I want to be happy, but I can't describe it in words."

This is the problem with this placement. Can you honestly tell me you know what you want or what you need or that you can quantify the feelings you have for the people dear to you ?

Lack of emotional awareness is not one of my problems. I identified instead with some of the other things you said: having difficulty trusting people, letting them in (I don't think you used the word trust; that's just my interpretation, so I might be on the wrong track there). And sometimes I really can't put into words what I need or feel, because the feelings and needs are too complex. I also have Mercury square my moon... maybe that plays a part. And moon conjunct Neptune.

But knowing what I feel for people dear to me is no problem. And I can certainly articulate what I want from a lover: compassion, caring, a sexual style that includes both passionate sex and cuddling (who says women only want one and men only want the other? I need both!), to name just a few things.

heidy26 said:
I can't. I realized that I haven't even been aware my whole life of my feelings for my own mother , which in this placement it's a very sensitive subject, 12h Moon always identifies with the mother and forms an invisible cord with her.

Everyone forms an invisible cord with their mother, no matter which house their moon is in. But never say always! Twelfth house moon isn't always identified with their mother, any more than anyone else is. I wouldn't say I identify with my mother, at least not thoroughly. Partially, sure, but who doesn't, unless their mother is someone they absolutely do not want to be like under any circumstances, which is not the case with mine?

heidy26 said:
I knew that I loved her, but how much ?

Only now I found out that very much. She was my idol, her pain was my pain, her happiness was my happiness and she is the main reason I shut myself from people. I watched her suffer and her suffering hurt me the most, no own personal experience traumatized me as much. This reflects in my love relationships and not only.

I take it your mother is deceased, and was seriously ill before she died? That right there would account for everything you describe. It also fits very well with your south node story that we explored earlier. Whether we take that story as literally true or just story true, you were primed to have that experience of identifying strongly with the mother.

heidy26 said:
Now regarding the Moon sq Venus problem, here's something interesting: Venus is attracted by a type, but can't form emotional attachment to what desires. Moon can form emotional attachment but is not attracted by that person. So here lies the dilemma.

A solution here is to either choose one of them at the expense of other or to have one, then another. Like choosing emotional bond and waiting for the attraction to come naturally.

I don't find that to be true for me at all. I see the difference in conflicting ways of approaching the relationship, and for me, the signs play perhaps a bigger part than the aspect itself.

Venus in Virgo wants to care in practical, detail oriented ways, like cooking for my partner, helping him with his taxes, things like that. (My only longterm partner had dyscalculia--math disability--so it was very helpful to him for me to handle things like tax forms.) Retrograde and in the eighth house, and in stable, practical Virgo, Venus also demands deep emotional intimacy and stability and commitment, won't sleep with just anyone, absolutely will not do short term relationships. (My Capricorn ascendent and Saturn in the seventh might also be playing a part here, reinforcing that message.) Moon in Sagittarius wants freedom, doesn't care about detail, wants someone to enjoy adventures with, and probably would be happy to have flings and one night stands if not for the other chart factors putting the brakes on that.

heidy26 said:
People tend to choose one of these solutions. There is however a third one, which means having two relationships, one with what Venus wants, the other with what Moon wants, at the same time.

I also found out that to have a long term relationship with this aspect, you need to find a person with rising/Sun in the Moon sign you have [Leo in my case] that also makes aspects to your Venus so that the attraction can exist.

I had a longterm relationship with someone who did not have either of those placements, so no, that's not necessary at all. It depends on the whole person: are they someone who can give you what you need and want in a relationship? In my case, the person was an archaeologist who did lots of traveling, and we had plenty of adventures together, but also had commitment and room for the practical things.

heidy26 · Aug 18, 2015

Osamenor said:
Lack of emotional awareness is not one of my problems. I identified instead with some of the other things you said: having difficulty trusting people, letting them in (I don't think you used the word trust; that's just my interpretation, so I might be on the wrong track there). And sometimes I really can't put into words what I need or feel, because the feelings and needs are too complex. I also have Mercury square my moon... maybe that plays a part. And moon conjunct Neptune.

But knowing what I feel for people dear to me is no problem. And I can certainly articulate what I want from a lover: compassion, caring, a sexual style that includes both passionate sex and cuddling (who says women only want one and men only want the other? I need both!), to name just a few things.

Your Moon placement is helped by the grand trine you have, as I recall you said. This definitely plays a part in the differences between us.
I have a tight Moon sq Venus and Pluto which goes even deeper into the problems.
I can also articulate what I want from a lover and basically I want same as you do, but I can't describe how a lover should be; what qualities should he have, what I won't like to see and so on. My line in this direction is 'We will see when we get there if I like what you're bringing or not'. And this is a problem.
Regarding what I feel for the loved ones, I know I care for them, but how much ? Can't quantify the feelings at all. Sometimes I don't even figure out that I have feelings for someone or what kind of feelings.
For example, it happened to fall for a friend I had and trust me, by the time I figured it out... there had been 2 world wars. :lol:

Kidding with the ww, but you know what I meant, lack of emotional awareness.

Osamenor said:
Everyone forms an invisible cord with their mother, no matter which house their moon is in. But never say always! Twelfth house moon isn't always identified with their mother, any more than anyone else is. I wouldn't say I identify with my mother, at least not thoroughly. Partially, sure, but who doesn't, unless their mother is someone they absolutely do not want to be like under any circumstances, which is not the case with mine?

Yes, everyone does form an emotional cord. But not at this rate.
I have viewed/read/reviewed hundreds of stories and they all revolve on the same subject with 12h Moon: mother.
Moon is about mother and female connections.
It is not about forming a connection with mother figure, but the intensity of it. Again, I have seen this in all I've read.
The placement itself is emotional and deeply connected with female maternal figure, but the aspects the Moon does with other planets, etc, can go even deeper into the bond or ease the feelings somehow.

Osamenor said:
I take it your mother is deceased, and was seriously ill before she died? That right there would account for everything you describe. It also fits very well with your south node story that we explored earlier. Whether we take that story as literally true or just story true, you were primed to have that experience of identifying strongly with the mother.

Yes, she passed away, but quite recent. It does fit partially with the SN story, I do believe the SN story blends with the past life and has been brought back by this experience.
I haven't had time to care for her, because she faded away so quickly. I've tried to lock myself in work and slept many times at work because I couldn't bear the pain she felt, although she was with me only 3 months before she died.
Almost all of her suffering was consumed 10000 miles away from me and I've only been by her side via phone/internet.
Again, the difference between my Moon's placement and my brother's Moon placement tells the story: he was indeed marked by her death, but recovered very fast and did not crumble, while I was broken to pieces and on the ground for a long time. I couldn't make it without therapy, I was a step away from getting into psychiatric hospital.

Osamenor said:
I don't find that to be true for me at all. I see the difference in conflicting ways of approaching the relationship, and for me, the signs play perhaps a bigger part than the aspect itself.

Venus in Virgo wants to care in practical, detail oriented ways, like cooking for my partner, helping him with his taxes, things like that. (My only longterm partner had dyscalculia--math disability--so it was very helpful to him for me to handle things like tax forms.) Retrograde and in the eighth house, and in stable, practical Virgo, Venus also demands deep emotional intimacy and stability and commitment, won't sleep with just anyone, absolutely will not do short term relationships. (My Capricorn ascendent and Saturn in the seventh might also be playing a part here, reinforcing that message.) Moon in Sagittarius wants freedom, doesn't care about detail, wants someone to enjoy adventures with, and probably would be happy to have flings and one night stands if not for the other chart factors putting the brakes on that.

Perhaps it has to do with the signs more in this case, but also with the maturity of the person.
This aspect can also manifest in other domains where you have to choose what you like vs what you actually need.

Osamenor said:
I had a longterm relationship with someone who did not have either of those placements, so no, that's not necessary at all. It depends on the whole person: are they someone who can give you what you need and want in a relationship? In my case, the person was an archaeologist who did lots of traveling, and we had plenty of adventures together, but also had commitment and room for the practical things.

Sometimes, when finding someone who is not capable to give you everything, you have to compromise.
The way you choose to compromise is reflected by this aspect and even if you choose not to compromise is reflected by it.

Sorry for this late reply, but I've been thinking a lot how to put it together and go with a logical reply of what I meant.

Osamenor · Aug 27, 2015

heidy26 said:
I also found out that to have a long term relationship with this aspect, you need to find a person with rising/Sun in the Moon sign you have [Leo in my case] that also makes aspects to your Venus so that the attraction can exist.

Osamenor said:
L
I had a longterm relationship with someone who did not have either of those placements, so no, that's not necessary at all. It depends on the whole person: are they someone who can give you what you need and want in a relationship? In my case, the person was an archaeologist who did lots of traveling, and we had plenty of adventures together, but also had commitment and room for the practical things.

heidy26 said:
Sometimes, when finding someone who is not capable to give you everything, you have to compromise.
The way you choose to compromise is reflected by this aspect and even if you choose not to compromise is reflected by it.

I wouldn't consider that relationship a compromise at all, if that's what you mean. My point was that he did not have a Sagittarius sun or AC, yet we had a longterm relationship. He has Taurus moon and rising, and I don't have a Taurus sun or AC, either, so it doesn't work on that side, either. However, the fact that we had a long term relationship proves that is is not absolutely necessary to have a sun or ascendant in your partner's moon sign, or for them to have sun or AC in yours. Contrary to what you said up there.

However, I just rechecked his chart with mine, and Venus aspects... check. His moon and AC form trines with my Venus (tight trine from his AC, loose trine from his moon), his sun loosely conjuncts my Venus... and his AC and my AC are exactly trine, same degree of their respective signs... which means our DCs are also exactly trine.

My moon squares his sun exactly and his Venus within 4 degrees. Not a "harmonious" aspect, but probably, with other aspects being harmonious, helped provide some spark and liveliness. Since my moon also squares my own Venus, I suppose I can't really complain about moon square Venus.

Confusing natal chart

Osamenor

heidy26

Well-known member

Osamenor

heidy26

Well-known member

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

heidy26

Well-known member

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

heidy26

Well-known member

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

Osamenor

heidy26

Well-known member

heidy26

Well-known member

Osamenor

heidy26

Well-known member

Osamenor

heidy26

Well-known member

Osamenor

heidy26

Well-known member

Osamenor