The Ninth House and Religion

poyi · Aug 22, 2013

tsmall said:
Ok, but unless you are claiming that astrology falls into the nature of witchcraft (and if you have the book, you will see that no where does it refer to astrology as being occult. Why? Because it's not occult. It's right there in the sky for anyone to be able to see. There is nothing hidden about astrology, because call it science or astronomy, at the heart it is a language (same as math or music) which infers or confers that there will be those who can hear and understand. There is nothing occult/hidden about astrology. Learn the language and you can read the stars.

Consign astrology to the same status as an Ouija board and then where are we?

In modern day unfortunate, as the public not fully recognised astrology and astrology had been separated by the mainstream astronomers. In the past is purely science to everyone and now is mysterical to general public. I know no traditional astrologer will ever agree with me about 8th and 12th house. I am not intended to win this argument. I am just simply stating the issues how people do see astrology in modern society no matter which school of astrology we used.

"1. of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.

2. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.

3. secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated."

http://m.dictionary.com/d/?q=occult

When you tell people I can predict weather, and see where your cat is now from horary they will only see that as a form of magic. As to people these knowledge was now hidden to most. While in the past it was a recognised study and science. Even now all the members here and student or professional astrologers who can be 100% confident of all their predictions and be able to see everything like God if you believed in one. So astrology at the end is still a hidden knowledge. You might know some of it but not completely. You can look up the sky and say the names of the constellation but I don't know many fully know about all the Stars. Is a knowledge can be learned but who is dare to say "I Know It All?"

For those don't believe in astrology and not have knowledge of astrology to them astrology is occult and is the same as witchcraft.

poyi · Aug 22, 2013

Witchcraft is a form of manipulation against the nature course of destiny. When we draw horary chart, electoral chart for surgery date, to locate a pet or object, to know the best period to buy gold for investment, to preview solar return, lunar return, to predict weather, to know a person without talking to him or her just based on the birth data. All these are against the common natures. And knowing is power of control, in a way we have certain power to manipulate once we got the information. To me astrology shares a level of witchcraft characteristic.

John Frawley often used Horary on Sport prediction on gambling. To gain wealth at the time that is most favourable and from ancient time the use of planetary hours with the right elements of herbs to cure diseases. To elect a wedding day from weather to smooth ceremony.That is manipulation of knowledge to gain things that is not naturally given to you.

tsmall · Aug 23, 2013

For those don't believe in astrology and not have knowledge of astrology to them astrology is occult and is the same as witchcraft.

I don't care if people don't believe in astrology. I have people I'm raising to be adults. Three of them. What is wisdom? (9th house) The sum total of your life experiences.

We can watch a sunset, and see the Sun going, going, gone. To them at the age of three it may seem like witchcraft and possibly occult, but to me it is something that happens every day when the skies are not cloudy. To them, mamma made the Sun disappear. Because in that moment, it seemed that she did.

Ever take a child outdoors on a day when it was sunny yet still raining? Bet you saw a rainbow. Why? Because you knew to look for one.

Ever seen the movie "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court?" Predict an Eclipse and what will happen to a primitive society and the world is your oyster. Does that mean that eclipses are "occult?" Of course not, because there is nothing hidden about the fact that an eclipse is happening.

I submit, in all respect, that if you really believe that astrology, the language of the stars, is witchcraft, then perhaps you shouldn't be studying it at all.

Astrology and astronomy divorced long before Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of All Saint's Church. Because of religion, and theosophy.

poyi said:
Witchcraft is a form of manipulation against the nature course of destiny. When we draw horary chart, electoral chart for surgery date, to locate a pet or object, to know the best period to buy gold for investment, to preview solar return, lunar return, to predict weather, to know a person without talking to him or her just based on the birth data. All these are against the common natures. And knowing is power of control, in a way we have certain power to manipulate once we got the information. To me astrology shares a level of witchcraft characteristic.

You know what? I hate Ptolemy. I mean, he changed the triplicity rulers to suit the needs he had in the moment. He created his own terms (bounds) and then tried to attribute them to an earlier source that has yet to be discovered. Still I find myself quoting him all the time. That prescience is useful. Why?

For, in the first place, this fact ought to be kept in view, that events which necessarily and fully happen whether exciting fear or creating joy, if arriving unforeseen, will either overwhelm the mind with terror or destroy its composure by sudden delight; if, however, such events should have been foreknown, the mind will have been previously prepared for their reception, and will preserve an equable calmness, by having been accustomed to contemplate the approaching event as though it were present, so that, on its actual arrival, it will be sustained with tranquility and constancy.

There is all the free will we have. To be able to accept with all the dignity and temperment our charts grant us to

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

poyi · Aug 23, 2013

I think what I can relate the best between similarity of Astrology in particular Transnational Astrology is the nature of Electional Astrology.

Astrologer can Elect a time and date for the client to call the person that had refused to make contact in 7 months. It works. That's manipulation of the nature course of that person's will. As the astrologer found the grab of moment to make that person to respond to that call. You can also argue that is part of destiny and will. But the knowledge of doing that Electional chart is what I am pointing as manipulation of knowledge of Time to use the advantage of the planets to do the work for you.

JUPITERASC · Aug 23, 2013

poyi said:
I think what I can relate the best between similarity of Astrology in particular Transnational Astrology is the nature of Electional Astrology.
Astrologer can Elect a time and date for the client to call the person that had refused to make contact in 7 months. It works.

At least 200 successful electional chart examples are required of this precise kind of situation in order for this to be even considered as a statistical proof

An astrologer may 'Elect a time and date for a client to call the person that had refused to make contact in 7 months'

BUT NEVERTHELESS

where is the astrologer who claims an IMMUTABLE MAGICAL GUARANTEE that the use of the particular elected time and date chosen by that particular astrologer would DEFINITELY have 'a successful outcome' for the client. Electional astrology is not 100 per cent guaranteed every time

Also, your comment continues as follows:

poyi said:
....That's manipulation of the nature course of that person's will. As the astrologer found the grab of moment to make that person to respond to that call.

You imply that Electional astrology FORCES and outcome

You imply that Electional astrology targets people so they are forced to act against their will

That is a contradiction to the idea of an individual's 'free will'

poyi said:
You can also argue that is part of destiny and will. But the knowledge of doing that Electional chart is what I am pointing as manipulation of knowledge of Time to use the advantage of the planets to do the work for you

An Electional chart is not 'a manipulation of time'

An Electional is the USE of time

Electional charts indicate the optimum time for an action - AND THAT IS ALL AN ELECTIONAL CHART CAN DO

For example, it is not a good idea to consider launching a boat when the tide is out

poyi · Aug 23, 2013

Yes I realized about the idea of how electrional chart makes that to happen against would be against "Free Will". That's why it is kind of witchcraft to me as it goes against the nature.

I do know a person personally who received 10-20 clients on phone, and used Horary to foresee who will be calling and what questions they will be asking everyday. He used electional chart to help them to do their business local and international. He makes living based on that. You might not believe but I know myself day in day out that how it works.

JUPITERASC · Aug 23, 2013

poyi said:
Yes I realized about the idea of how electrional chart makes that to happen against would be against "Free Will". That's why it is kind of witchcraft to me as it goes against the nature.

I do know a person personally who received 10-20 clients on phone, and used Horary to foresee who will be calling and what questions they will be asking everyday. He used electional chart to help them to do their business local and international. He makes living based on that. You might not believe but I know myself day in day out that how it works.

It's not a matter of 'belief'. I'm simply stating that Electional astrology IS NOT WITCHCRAFT

Electional astrology simply Elects the most optimum time for an action and that is all - nothing magical or mystical - just the optimum time for an action :smile:

*emma* · Aug 23, 2013

poyi said:
Witchcraft is a form of manipulation against the nature course of destiny. When we draw horary chart, electoral chart for surgery date, to locate a pet or object, to know the best period to buy gold for investment, to preview solar return, lunar return, to predict weather, to know a person without talking to him or her just based on the birth data. All these are against the common natures. And knowing is power of control, in a way we have certain power to manipulate once we got the information. To me astrology shares a level of witchcraft characteristic.
.

By that argument, science, medicine is also witchcraft
:biggrin:

poyi · Aug 23, 2013

You can also consider the fact that Astrologers do use astrology on trades, investment, gambling on horsing, sport, they gained wealth with the knowledge and accurate predictions for their personal benefit as well as improving health that against the modern medical science. Most people don't have the skill to do it themselves.
It doesn't deny the fact that there are people can do it everyday.

For those who can do it will never share with the public how they actually do it. On the other hand, rather an astrologer do such accurate speculation not only based on how strong his Jupiter and Mercury in natal are that is based on the condition of his 5th and 11th houses also plus all the progression, transit and so on. Even if you have the skills on doing so, the planets won't agree with you.

I would say in most cases, is a mix of Free Will and Destiny.

poyi · Aug 23, 2013

*emma* said:
By that argument, science, medicine is also witchcraft

You can say that Witchcraft actually is part of hidden knowledge that is beyond the normal understanding. At a different point in time, our current science and medicine would be the witchcraft for the past.

*emma* · Aug 23, 2013

poyi said:
You can say that Witchcraft actually is part of hidden knowledge that is beyond the normal understanding. At a different point in time, our current science and medicine would be the witchcraft for the past.

Nice swerve

poyi · Aug 23, 2013

*emma* said:
Nice swerve

You welcome :rightful:

I like discussion in general, it promotes growth in understanding and knowledge. As long as we remain Calm :w00t:

JUPITERASC · Aug 23, 2013

poyi said:
You can also consider the fact that Astrologers do use astrology on trades, investment, gambling on horsing, sport, they gained wealth with the knowledge and accurate predictions for their personal benefit as well as improving health that against the modern medical science. Most people don't have the skill to do it themselves.
It doesn't deny the fact that there are people can do it everyday.

For those who can do it will never share with the public how they actually do it. On the other hand, rather an astrologer do such accurate speculation not only based on how strong his Jupiter and Mercury in natal are that is based on the condition of his 5th and 11th houses also plus all the progression, transit and so on. Even if you have the skills on doing so, the planets won't agree with you.

Astrologers may use astrology to indicate optimum times for actions of all kinds
- just as weather forecasters use meteorology to indicate optimum times for actions -
however weather forecasters are not using 'witchcraft'

poyi said:
I would say in most cases, is a mix of Free Will and Destiny.

Either there is Free Will or their is Destiny :smile:

JUPITERASC · Aug 23, 2013

poyi said:
You can say that Witchcraft actually is part of hidden knowledge that is beyond the normal understanding. At a different point in time, our current science and medicine would be the witchcraft for the past.

Good idea to investigate what is meant by the word 'witchcraft' then - here's a definition from an online dictionary :smile:

QUOTE

witch·craft

Noun
The practice of magic, esp. black magic; the use of spells and the invocation of spirits.

Synonyms
sorcery - witchery - magic - wizardry - enchantment

*emma* · Aug 23, 2013

poyi said:
You welcome

I like discussion in general, it promotes growth in understanding and knowledge. As long as we remain Calm

Discussion is great. So, I take it, as a practioner or student of astrology you are declaring yourself to be a witch? Seeing as you believe it is witchcraft.
:biggrin:

poyi · Aug 23, 2013

*emma* said:
Discussion is great. So, I take it, as a practioner or student of astrology you are declaring yourself to be a witch? Seeing as you believe it is witchcraft.

I see that Witch or Wizard are people with knowledge and power to pick the timing to make the most of the best outcome of particular event in most cases, particularly for personal benefit or for the people who pay them money to gain power for themselves. Witches and Wizard do fortune telling too, they also read astrology charts, tarot cards, palm reading, they read signs and symbols, and astrology has a lot of symbols such as our sign for planets. They also do herbal stuffs like medical astrology. By all mean the definition of Witchcraft is hidden knowledge that human not suppose to know since the culture of Jewish, Muslim and Christian culture. I wonder how the ancient Greek and Babylonian thought between astrology and witchcraft. May be you guys can find some information.

JUPITERASC · Aug 23, 2013

poyi said:
I see that Witch or Wizard are people with knowledge and power to pick the timing to make the most of the best outcome of particular event....

So you are clearly saying that in your opinion in any event, Electional astrologers are Witches or Wizards

poyi said:
....in most cases, particularly for personal benefit or for the people who pay them money to gain power for themselves.

There are charlatans
who claim they have the ability to confer mysterious undefined unspecified 'power' on others

BUT ONLY IF that person pays them enough money :smile:

poyi said:
Witches and Wizard do fortune telling too, they also read astrology charts, tarot cards, palm reading, they read signs and symbols, and astrology has a lot of symbols such as our sign for planets.

So you are clearly placing astrology readings in the same realm as 'fortune telling, palm reading, tarot cards'

poyi said:
...They also do herbal stuffs like medical astrology.

So this means that you immediately label anyone who is a herbalist or a medical astrologer as a 'witch' or 'wizard'

poyi said:
...By all mean the definition of Witchcraft is hidden knowledge that human not suppose to know since the culture of Jewish, Muslim and Christian culture. I wonder how the ancient Greek and Babylonian thought between astrology and witchcraft. May be you guys can find some information.

I would be interested if you would explain what your definition of Witchcraft is without using the term 'hidden knowledge'

After all, to 99 percent of the population, computer programming is 'hidden knowledge'

So by your definition then, computer programmers
- since they have 'hidden knowledge' on the workings of computers -
are immediately labelled as 'witches' and 'wizards' :smile:

*emma* · Aug 23, 2013

poyi said:
I see that Witch or Wizard are people with knowledge and power to pick the timing to make the most of the best outcome of particular event in most cases, particularly for personal benefit or for the people who pay them money to gain power for themselves. Witches and Wizard do fortune telling too, they also read astrology charts, tarot cards, palm reading, they read signs and symbols, and astrology has a lot of symbols such as our sign for planets. They also do herbal stuffs like medical astrology. By all mean the definition of Witchcraft is hidden knowledge that human not suppose to know since the culture of Jewish, Muslim and Christian culture. I wonder how the ancient Greek and Babylonian thought between astrology and witchcraft. May be you guys can find some information.

Who is *you guys*? And you didnt answer my simple question.

poyi · Aug 23, 2013

I am afraid what I could find so far are the ancient Greek and Babylonians used to sacrifice people to the gods in heaven, Planets, to gain good fortune and they are the master and origin of astrology/astrologers. I think as minimal, there is inseparable link between the origin of Greek and Babylonian mythology and astrology.

poyi · Aug 23, 2013

*emma* said:
Who is *you guys*? And you didnt answer my simple question.

I mean you and JupiterAsc.

Oh yer I forgot to mention, I have no problem being called as a witch. In Chinese astrology and occult study, witchcraft is also inseparable with astrology.

The Ninth House and Religion

poyi

poyi

tsmall

poyi

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

poyi

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

emma

Banned

poyi

poyi

emma

Banned

poyi

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

emma

Banned

poyi

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

emma

Banned

poyi

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