Hyleg and alcoccoden

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paraskeyh

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JUPITERASC said:
As you say, Moon has no dignity in degree of Hyleg
so the search for Alcoccoden according to Bonatti continues
next step is to find out whether Jupiter or Mars have any dignity in the Hylegs place. If so, then either one is Alcoccoden :smile:
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We still continue with the sun as Hyleg arent we?I see Jupiter has face in Hylegs place but doesnt make any aspect with sun.Actually according to Bonatti's method the sun cannot be the Hyleg at all, cause we must use only the four dignities(rule,exalt,tripl and term)and no planet has dignity in the sun area except Venus.BUT Venus cannot be the Alcoccoden because it doesnt make any aspect with the Sun.In other words i think we must look the next one the moon,what do you think?
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

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paraskeyh said:
We still continue with the sun as Hyleg arent we?I see Jupiter has face in Hylegs place but doesnt make any aspect with sun.Actually according to Bonatti's method the sun cannot be the Hyleg at all, cause we must use only the four dignities(rule,exalt,tripl and term)and no planet has dignity in the sun area except Venus.BUT Venus cannot be the Alcoccoden because it doesnt make any aspect with the Sun.In other words i think we must look the next one the moon,what do you think?
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I agree paraskeyh - and if Sun is eliminated then we consider Moon as Hyleg... if moon does not qualify, then we consider Ascendant and/or PoF (Part of Fortune) what is the degree and Sign of your PoF? :smile:
 
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DreamingTheSeas

DreamingTheSeas

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When we have calculated the Hyleg as an Arabic Part, and the Hyleg is in Virgo and 5th house along with Saturn and part of Fortune what conclusions we can get?
 
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paraskeyh

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Αccording to Bonatti only Part of Fortune can be the Hyleg.After we have cleared with moon we go to the POF and the reason for that is that the chart is Preventional.Now POF makes 2 aspects :a conjuction with Venus and a square with Jupiter.I look at dignities and i see Jupiter has the greater dignity.Jupiter is in exaltion and Venus scores less from Jupiter because is in term. So to sum up according to Bonatti Sun and Moon fails and Part of Fortune is the Hyleg with Jupiter as Alcoccoden.
 
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paraskeyh

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I continue with my thoughts..If Jupiter is the Alcoccoden (wich probably is) then which years we take?Jupiter is in Scorpio in 12th house but as we said before a planet within about 8 degrees of an angular house cosidered to be angular.So jupiter has power but i dont know wich years to take,i am between middle and Greater.
 
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paraskeyh

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paraskeyh said:
I continue with my thoughts..If Jupiter is the Alcoccoden (wich probably is) then which years we take?Jupiter is in Scorpio in 12th house but as we said before a planet within about 8 degrees of an angular house cosidered to be angular.So jupiter has power but i dont know wich years to take,i am between middle and Greater.
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Αlso jupiter is in aspect with Mars in Scorpio(conjuction),square with Venus In Cancer(in 9th),oposition with a strong moon in Taurus and is in sextile with a very strong Mercury in Virgo (in 10th).So we have work to do.:happy:
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

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paraskeyh said:
Αlso jupiter is in aspect with Mars in Scorpio(conjuction),square with Venus In Cancer(in 9th),oposition with a strong moon in Taurus and is in sextile with a very strong Mercury in Virgo (in 10th).So we have work to do.:happy:
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paraskeyh said:
Am i in the right way?
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I agree with your analysis paraskyeyh. PoF is Hyleg. Mars, Venus & Jupiter aspect Hyleg - Jupiter has greater dignity at degree of Hyleg so Jupiter is Alcoccoden.

Now it is a matter of addition and subtraction according to the method given.

Benefics in Trine, Conjunction or Sextile add years to the life, whereas Malefics in Conjunction, Square or opposition take years away from the life.

So we add years for Venus because Cancer Venus and Scorpio Jupiter both Trine Pisces PoF (we do not consider Moon because Moon opposes Jupiter)

Mars Conjuncts Jupiter so we deduct appropriate years :smile:
 
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paraskeyh

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Jup we examine the first chart not the second.The Pof is in cancer not in Pisces. First, wich years you think i should add for Jupiter Middle or Greater?
 
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paraskeyh

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paraskeyh said:
Jup we examine the first chart not the second.The Pof is in cancer not in Pisces. First, wich years you think i should add for Jupiter Middle or Greater?
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Αlso jupiter is in aspect with Mars in Scorpio(conjuction) Because Mars is malefic we subtract the Lesser(15 years and 40,5 in months),square with Venus In Cancer(in 9th):now here you said we add cause Venus in Cancer and a benefic but in square so we add for sure or not?I havent read what we do in this situation when a malefic is in hard aspect we add or no?,oposition with a strong moon in Taurus (we add or not) and is in sextile with a very strong Mercury in Virgo (in 10th)(here we add but the Lesser or the Middle years because the Mercury is Very strong.
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

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paraskeyh said:
Αlso jupiter is in aspect with Mars in Scorpio(conjuction) Because Mars is malefic we subtract the Lesser(15 years and 40,5 in months),square with Venus In Cancer(in 9th):now here you said we add cause Venus in Cancer and a benefic but in square so we add for sure or not?I havent read what we do in this situation when a malefic is in hard aspect we add or no?,oposition with a strong moon in Taurus (we add or not) and is in sextile with a very strong Mercury in Virgo (in 10th)(here we add but the Lesser or the Middle years because the Mercury is Very strong.
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paraskeyh I agree subtractions regarding Mars

however remember that the Sign Scorpio always Trines the Sign Cancer so that is why we add the years of Venus (a benefic in trine to Alcoccoden)

We cannot add years of Taurus Moon because in this case the benefic moon opposes Alcoccoden.

Benefics that are Conjunct, Sextile, or Trine we add years

Malefics that are Conjunct, Square or Opposition we deduct years

Mercury is not specifically considered a benefic - the benefics are Jupiter and Venus http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/benefics.html
Sun and Moon are traditionally considered benefic

Malefics are Jupiter and Saturn http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/malefics.html

Mercury varies, depending on condition:smile:
 
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paraskeyh

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JUPITERASC said:
paraskeyh I agree subtractions regarding Mars

however remember that the Sign Scorpio always Trines the Sign Cancer so that is why we add the years of Venus (a benefic in trine to Alcoccoden)

We cannot add years of Taurus Moon because in this case the benefic moon opposes Alcoccoden.

Benefics that are Conjunct, Sextile, or Trine we add years

Malefics that are Conjunct, Square or Opposition we deduct years

Mercury is not specifically considered a benefic - the benefics are Jupiter and Venus http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/benefics.html
Sun and Moon are traditionally considered benefic

Malefics are Jupiter and Saturn http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/malefics.html

Mercury varies, depending on condition:smile:
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So we take the middle years of Jupiter(45.5)-we subtract (15+40.5=18 years and 4 and a half months-we add venus lesser(8 and 48 months=12 years-about moon do you think we should subtract too or no?And finally Mercury a strong sextile so here what do you think ,should we add?
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

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paraskeyh said:
So we take the middle years of Jupiter(45.5)-we subtract (15+40.5=18 years and 4 and a half months-we add venus lesser(8 and 48 months=12 years-about moon do you think we should subtract too or no?And finally Mercury a strong sextile so here what do you think ,should we add?
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Jupiter has no dignity in Scorpio and so is Peregrine, however BobZemco has previously stated on another thread at this link http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8767&highlight=alcoccoden
BobZemco said:
You can use the Hyleg/Alcoccoden method. There are different methods of calculating the Hyleg (Ptolemy, Bonatti, al-Biruni et al). I recommend using a program as its quite complex (and the old fashioned terminology grates on my nerves).

Generally, if there is a Hyleg, it'll end up being the Sun, Moon, PoF, or ASC. Assuming there is a Hyleg (if not the native's life will be short), you find the Alcoccoden, the planet the makes the first applying Ptolemic aspect that's has the highest dignity.

Based on that, you consult a table of The Years of the Planets and take the years determined by whether the planet is cadent, succedent or angular and use that as your base-line. If Mars was the Alcoccoden and angular, you'd have a base-line of 66 years.

From there, you either add or subtract years (and months) to your base-line depending on which planets aspect the Alcoccoden, and whether the aspects or hard or easy and whether the planet is a malefic or benefic.

From what I've seen, it's quite accurate, being off by only a few years. In a couple of cases where it was off badly, adjusting the birth time by a few minutes yielded the correct number of years, which suggests the birth time was inaccurate.
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So if we take note BobZemco's good advice, Jupiter is angular in 1st house, so for Jupiter we can take the Greater years - 79 years :smile:
 
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paraskeyh

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So if we take note BobZemco's good advice, Jupiter is angular in 1st house, so for Jupiter we can take the Greater years - 79 years :smile:
Jupiter is conjucting ascedant 5 degrees so it is considered to be angular you are right.If jupiter conjucts with first house with 10 degrees counts to be angular or not?
 
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paraskeyh

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paraskeyh said:
So if we take note BobZemco's good advice, Jupiter is angular in 1st house, so for Jupiter we can take the Greater years - 79 years :smile:
Jupiter is conjucting ascedant 5 degrees so it is considered to be angular you are right.If jupiter conjucts with first house with 10 degrees counts to be angular or not?
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I am wondering what we must do (hypotheticaly) if a malefic like Mars sextiles an Alcoccoden,i mean a malefic but in good angle with Alcoccoden then we add,we subtract or we do not do anything at all.And about the moon and the mercury because you said that they are neutral we dont use them at all?
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

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paraskeyh said:
So if we take note BobZemco's good advice, Jupiter is angular in 1st house, so for Jupiter we can take the Greater years - 79 years :smile: Jupiter is conjucting ascedant 5 degrees so it is considered to be angular you are right.If jupiter conjucts with first house with 10 degrees counts to be angular or not?
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According to the notes prepared by Bernadette Brady using Alcabitius houses a planet within 6 degrees of the Ascendant is counted as being angular - 10 degrees is not considered angular.

Remember BobZemco advises us that the method is complex and therefore the use of a program is best... also it is important to have an accurate time of birth
Remember also that the time on a wrist watch or clock on a wall is different from the actual time in relation to the Sun. Consider this... when looking at a sundial situated in a garden we notice considerable differences if we compare the sundial to watches and/or clocks. This particular birth occurred on 11th August and for that day the Equation of Time states that a sundial shows the sun is slower by 5.2 minutes than a watch and/or clock - interesting to experiment and to deduct five minutes from your birthtime:smile:
 
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paraskeyh

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JUPITERASC said:
According to the notes prepared by Bernadette Brady using Alcabitius houses a planet within 6 degrees of the Ascendant is counted as being angular - 10 degrees is not considered angular.

Remember BobZemco advises us that the method is complex and therefore the use of a program is best... also it is important to have an accurate time of birth :smile:
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Ok:joyful: i have my certificate of Birth so its ok only thing i dont know if a deviation from 2 to 5 minutes is acceptable .
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

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paraskeyh said:
I am wondering what we must do (hypotheticaly) if a malefic like Mars sextiles an Alcoccoden,i mean a malefic but in good angle with Alcoccoden then we add,we subtract or we do not do anything at all.And about the moon and the mercury because you said that they are neutral we dont use them at all?
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When malefic Mars sextiles an Alcoccoden then we do nothing because to have any effect regarding deduction of years, malefics must conjunct, oppose or square
Benefits to have any effect likewise on addition of years must conjunct, sextile or trine
Bernadette Brady has used Moon as a benefic to add years for Charlie Chaplin's chart but has given no example using Mercury as a benefic so in this case, since we use this particular method because there is no example. then we cannot say :smile:
 
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