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Unread 07-09-2007, 07:46 AM
pixiequix pixiequix is offline
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Unread 07-09-2007, 08:28 AM
Draco Draco is offline
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Re: A Question For "Traditional Planets Only" Astrologers

Quote:
This is not directed toward the Jyotish or Vedic school of astrologers, but to those Western astrologers for whom the universe ends with Saturn.
Why not? If you can respect that in the Vedic tradition that only the seven light-bearers are considered necessary, then why can you not accept your Western tradition? I would like you to answer this question please before I respond any further.

If you can't give a reasonable answer for this, it would be a complete waste of my time, or anyone elses, to entertain you.
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Unread 07-09-2007, 01:22 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Re: A Question For "Traditional Planets Only" Astrologers

Madam,

Quote:
Because I don't know enough about Jyotish or Vedic astrology to make an honest attempt at examining it
Yes. This is precisely my point, because whatever your excuse was about Vedic astrology, I could turn it on you about traditional Western. I knew this in advance. This is why I wanted you to answer that question, and you went straight for the bait.

So it is perfectly fine for Vedic astrologers to not find it necessary to include every asteroid, hypothetical planet, transSaturnian and whatever else they could cram into all manner of charts, be they horary, natal, mundane or whatever, because admittedly you know very little about it, yet you cannot accept followers of the Western tradition doing the same, which is yet also a subject that you evidently also know very little about. So it is obvious that you are prejudice from the offset, and this is the point I am making, plain for all to see. I just don't get your prejudice. That's what my problem is, your predjudice stance is offensive, which you already knew. If you had not opened the post with ' This is not directed toward the Jyotish or Vedic school of astrologers', then there would have been no such prejudice to offend those very people that you are seeking answers from. See what I mean?

You do not know enough about traditional Western astrology to make an honest attempt at examining it. Never mind the Eastern tradition. This you demonstrate quite clearly and it is your prejudice about your own Western tradition, and yet not about a somewhat more alien Eastern tradition, that I am unable to understand.

Not to play the armchair psychologist, but it seems obvious to me that you concluded your post with 'It wasn't my desire to offend', because psychologically, you were obviously conciously aware that your post probably would be considered offensive, or you wouldn't have felt the need to make a point of it. The only thing that offends me is your prejudice. Had you not stressed such great emphasis about vindicating Eastern traditional astrologers from your inquiry (not that there are any with any good knowledge around anyway), when they are 'guilty' of the same crime of following tradition as Western traditionalists are, then there wouldn't have been any offence to be taken at all.

Quote:
But if you're going to insist on being condescending, or "entertaining" me, then I don't wanna hear what you have to say in the first place. You can keep your smug superiority all to yourself.
Well that's a shame as I appear to be one of the very small handful around here that might actually give you some answers. Although I'd be surprised if you get much response because we get sick and tired or repeating ourselves endlessly. Pointing out the flaws in modern astrological thinking which is absolutely and completely divorced from it's tradition, becomes like shooting fish in a barrel: the sense of sport quickly diminishes.

Lets face it, you knew that it would probably be me that would respond to this. I guess I fell for the bait also. So what's your problem?

If you don't want to hear what I have to say then thats a shame, as I'll probably be posting on this thread none the less, especially as I'm one of the very few who your question is obviously directed towards, and for the benefit of other interested parties, I may just want to share in my opinion. Sorry.

Best wishes. See you soon. x
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Unread 07-09-2007, 02:30 PM
jagetoile jagetoile is offline
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Re: A Question For "Traditional Planets Only" Astrologers

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Unread 07-09-2007, 02:53 PM
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Re: A Question For "Traditional Planets Only" Astrologers

Hi Pixiequix,

I sometimes look at the expanded version of planets and sometimes the traditional. As you know I do like looking at the outer planets for some of the understandings I have gained of my own chart in particular. However I also like the traditional because of its pattern....

Sun=Leo=Mascucline
Moon=Cancer=Feminine
Mercury=Gemini=Masculine
Mercury=Virgo=Feminine
Venus=Taurus=Feminine
Venus=Libra=Masculine
Mars=Aries= Masuline
Mars=Scorpio= Feminine
Jupiter=Sagittarius=Masculine
Jupiter=Pisces=Feminine
Saturn=Capricorn=Feminine
Saturn=Aquarius=Masculine

I hope that you can see that every planet shows through both a feminine and masculine sign. The lights are the definitive polartities if you like.

To my mind this allows the perspective of masculine within the feminine and visa versa, allowing the exploration of the expression of both masculine and feminine principles within the body of the other.

I do think it is a really valuable model because of this symmetry. And each model of astrology is just that, a pattern or a lens through which we gaze. It is not the true reality of the immense complexities of life. Each model provides a filter.

If you look at the outer planets, one can wonder how far do you go??? In ancient times fixed stars had quite a prominence in some astrological models and do again today. There is no right or wrong. The best view I think is that the intuition and logic combine to chose, decipher, or create a model through which the astrologer can develop a viable interpretation that is consistent with their values and skill.

I view each model as flawed because it is a model and is a reduction of life to understandable and communicable strategies.

I hope I haven't lost you.... these are my thoughts for what they are worth to anyone who might be reading them

Love Light and Peace
Flea
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Unread 07-09-2007, 03:59 PM
archergirl archergirl is offline
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Re: A Question For "Traditional Planets Only" Astrologers

Speaking only from a philosophical POV (and as a horary astrologer), it is human nature to want to make things complicated, to add 'dimension' and 'layers' to things; so we add planets and trans-Neptunians and assorted asteroids and fairly soon we have a chart that is so clogged by these 'dimensions' and 'layers' that it becomes unreadable, let alone decipherable.

Evolution has little to do with it; one could argue, quite effectively, that human beings haven't fundamentally changed in all the time we've been humans. We've only invented more and more complex explanations for our nature, when actually, it can all be very easily explained using simpler language. So for me, including the thousands of asteroids, etc. in a chart is a hiding to nothing.

I don't discount Pluto in natal astrology, however, nor the other major outer planets. Having experienced Pluto in my sign for the last twelve years I am in no position to argue against his inclusion in *this branch* of astrology.

The asteroids, though? Nah. Just because scientists give it a particular name does not automatically endow it with mystical powers associated with its mythology. That's extrapolation (or wishful thinking) on the part of astrologers who use them.

AG
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Unread 07-09-2007, 05:45 PM
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Re: A Question For "Traditional Planets Only" Astrologers

Oops.....wall of text.
Tsquare.
===================

Originally quoted by pixiequix:
Quote:
The discovery of a new planet is viewed by many as an indicator of the continued expansion of human understanding, and of human beings in general. As we expand and progress, our knowledge and understanding of the galaxy expands and progresses. On rare occasions this can correlate to an expansion of the actual universe as we view and understand it, marked by the discovery of a new celestial body, whether it's a Planet, Centaur, Comet, or Asteroid etc. etc.
I believe that this could be looked at from many various angles.
THere are more then two opposing views often when truth is discovered, and I'm not neccisarilly talking about the conversation above, but more so of the theory that as we expand, so does the universe give us another planet.
This theory is strictly cause and effect type theory.
It is based on mechanics.
mabie we are dealing with something above simple mechanics and simple cause and effect physics here.

One way I like to look at this is......Before one ever knew of astrology, or began the process of discovery of astrology and the relation of it to ones self....it was already there....it was already a part of ones life, yet one didn't know it.....so from there I see that this may be the fact altogether as far as telescopes go, and there discovery of planets.
A telescope can not tell you what effect a outer space body can have on a person, for the most part this stuff is self evident to some....How? I dont know. But based on an interpretation or two that I have read on my own of My chart, I have come to the conclution that astrology and Planets somehow effect my being. How? I don't know.
Yet it is too self evident a truth for me to invalidate it.

I have to see it for myself to understand it and use it.
Otherwise the study of astrology has no purpose, other then to show me how little, and not in controll I am of my life in this universe.....which is something I dont believe, the more I have understood something in and of life, including hidden motivations in my life, the more I have been able to controll those hidden motivations. Not with alot of force, but with understanding, with understanding, friction decreases between opposing forces.


Now back to the question at hand.....so far I can believe that we have other hidden motivations in life, hidden masters so to speak, that we dont know of as of yet, To say that new planets that are discovered are irrelivent tottaly is probably just a deffence of an old system that worked, with a "dont rock the boat metality" which is ok in some areas, yet doesnt lead to inovation or new discovery.
I don't believe in the destruction of the old to make way for the new, there is plenty of space as far as I am concerned for many systems of thought or evaluation, but if something doesn't work, then fix it....if it does, good.

Western astrology, from what I gather is a research line...the "old school"
is pretty set, in that it has had years and years of research, yet I am no expert on this research....but from what I have read, it has an interesting history, which I believe should be preserved and not manipulated too much. Vedic and Indian astrology comes from cultures that we today have a difficulty understanding because of our "modern" was of life. Who knows what really happened back then, durring its development, or its origin, for sure. Just how spiritually or technically advanaced were they. ???????. They may have possibly known more then "us".

Anyhow, I think it takes time to understand a new discovery and its relevence, and western astrology is missing some philosophy, and jumps in directly, or at least more so, with the science. It will be a while before it is all codified into, gasp!, a religion. Religion is just a way to say, work finished, and a reafermation of the phenomenon, of what said philosophy and science has found. At the most, it's a guide. Roadmaps arn't meant to be worshiped, you still have to look at the road for yourself to see where you are at. The birth chart is a roadmap. Maps are useless without a road. And if you have a good grasp of both the map and the road, and where you are, you can often change which dirrection you are going.
See what Im getting at?

It doesn't mean one must worship.
I'm really not trying to offend anyone here, and fear I may have, but, thats my observation. TO be honest, this really isn't dirrected at anyone at all, its just an observation I had that I would like to share, and that is all it is, an observation. I do change my view as well when then road changes.



pixiequix quote:
Quote:
And to some degree, couldn't this reluctance be interpreted as a kind of refusal to grow or continue evolving?
I don't think so, at least not entirely, but you have a good point, It will be hard to codify what everyone finds self evident, into an agreed upon observation, of a new manifestation......even if it is an old manifestation.

While there may be new planets discovered, or bodies comets etc, the manifestation may be old and just not known in that time of say vedic astrology.....wisdom does get lost too, who know's if eveything found ever made it into the vedic culture......and from another way of seeing, the manifestations may just be new.....but i doubt it, unless there are forces at play trying to change our experience of life and reality, through the zodiac, which may be possible.

I hate to think that I at any time have all the pieces of a whole.....because right then something new shows up that doesnt "fit" with the rest, which in most cases, in our society, or science, leads to that extra "thing" being cast aside for the time and either being ridiculed by "the experts", or made evident by people that are "nuts".

The truth game is tough business.
People like their lies.

In other words, they dont like to spin and crash......too much is too much to some, and truth often breaks alot of hearts. Alot of people are stupid and ignorant.....I'd never blame them for it though, and I wouldn't pitty them for it either, thats just plain cruel. Cultural manipulation has been going on for a long time now, and everyone reading this has at one time or another, (Cough) High School (Cough), has been forced to accept data as fact without the time to observe for ones self if said data is fact.
In general, people are swimming in data and starved for information, that is aplicable. Hypocrasy in school systems and goverment is to blame. Not it's defeated people who will do whatever they are told.

Evolution of thought changes all structures of old thought.....and old thought doesnt like to budge......it likes to solidify creating only the chanells that it will allow through its structure........to some degree you could relate this to a society, or a culture......it ony gets as big as its stable data....and if it doesn't leave room to grow or change, it dies.
eventully anyhow......or it destroys all the other stuff "protecting" itself.
Crazy Huh?

Revolution on the other hand just destroys the creators of the old thought and then a new goon squad steps into the old shoes. the channels of the system never change and they give it all a new name, making it sound good, and quite often people think,(not able, or given oppertunity to look), and believe, that things have changed, when really...............same ****, different hair cut.



I do agree though that yes, it is us that wakes us up, not planets or universal changes, they possibly can......, but we still have the choice if we wish to see or not, we can fight sight, or it can be overwealming, just too much at once. We can always close our eyes and fall asleep, or else someone can close our eyes for us, or at least threaten us too close them, " for the good of everyone" or whatever "reason" said person, group, or race, alien or not, comes up with.

People waking up don't like dictators of there thoughts emotion or actions, and like governing there own affairs.....sometimes I wonder if the zodiac likes us waking up......its a dark thought. but we do seem to have rullers dont we.

If the gods are in the stars.....

There may be....since we are dealing with energies as far as zodiacs go......"planets" that arn't really planets, meaning they are not solid or visible to a telescope eye.
It's just a thought.....and why not, it could be possible that there are things or other energy phenomenon that we are not aware of through, "science" But what if someone ran across it themselves, but couldn't prove it simply because he had no way of showing it to anyone, would one believe it. Would it mean its not there.......for mostly everyone yeah, but it would still mean, that if it was there, it is there, and just cant be percieved.
??????????

So growth and change is hard, and is often done on ones own as far as I can tell, once you get too far "out there" for eveyone to agree with or understand.
I dont believe its a coincidence that brilliance and "insanity" come together in an individual. The laws of Agreement, or "reality", and fellow man are a strange phenomenon.
Has anyone ever played or seen the trick played on a friend, where everyone in a group, for whatever reason, just decides not to agree, or to talk, to someone of their group....you will often see that guy go kookoo. He will often introvert and think there is something either wrong with him, or something wrong with the group......both the group or the individual could be right.....but often groups, being more powerfull, by number, and force, do win.
Or have you ever seen when a person comes up with something extremely brilliant but its "before its time" and that guy lives a life of poverty and nuttiness while years after his death people just seem to "get it" and go "huh....I guess he wasnt so bad". The universe deffinatly tends to play nasty tricks sometimes.


The Zodiac.
The zodaic and the schools of the old are a roadmap, that to my comprehension, just arn't entirely plotted yet...there will be new discoveries as science changes and grows, but it will take philosophy to make the jump as well. then the science. I believe we are having a hard enough time with the science we have today being a little to far ahead of ourselves, or at least or ability to know and understand it and use it properly and ethically, instead of the dirrection we have had with moral codes.


On Science.
It will be intereseting to see where it all goes when saturn enters Virgo.....Im currious. Im affraid we are going to see next to no inovation at the time, and a strict hold of the old school tie. In other words, all we will see is the old justified, and used till it is all gone...there won't be a big push for inovation, and well have to do with what we got.....new developments will be further scrutenized and feared...and while this may be a good thing for say, less mistakes, we may see the old way of doing things getting a little too beurocratic, and restricted, it is fear,
I have never been a big fan of fear....I dont believe to mistake fear for wisdom is a good thing.
on that thought, mabie well see some growing up as far as sciece goes.....evaluating its past mistakes and actually learning from them....by confronting them and admiting them......moving beyond the justifications to real change. either way it'll be slow going, and there will probably be alot of effort involved in doing just that.

But im still curious, I have no idea what will happen.

One thing that I would like to see happen is for paper to be produced once again out of hemp instead of trees. From the research I have done, there is just no reason not too. It's plain stupid not to created paper out of hemp.
But chemical companies like there money, and you need no chemicals to make paper out of hemp, therefore it can't be pattented, and its funny how many have there fingers in our goverments and lawbooks, or at least have ties to international banking, who have there ties as well, that will go so far to criminalize a plant that is a relative to marijuana.
I've also read that you would have to smoke a hemp dube the size of a telephone pole just to get a buzz. Stupid huh?

hmmmm.....thoughts seem to wander,
================================
got nothing else to say.
(Warning!)
(Rant)
wanted to put this out there to see what would happen.
Not finnished and is just an ouflow really.
Mainly it is just a thought. It's intersting how all systems(universes, goverments, computers) have the same laws and govern by those laws. Im still working on it. It'll be interstting, when we discover more about univeres and our places in them, as free beings. and just what it is exactly that we are doing here....instead of being slaves, feeding tax dollars to war, buying big houses for beurocrats and or psycopaths who only take pleasure in the slaughter of others, and fund themselves also by keeping people in lower awarenesses of those around them and the world they live in, by enturbulating the lifes that they are tring to create while the madmans whole purpose is to destroy, and by enturbulation comes fixation on the little stuff of life, tiny problems, little games, the mundane, keeping individuals herded and busy, destroying free thought, not allowing growth, frustrating those who would choose their own goals and purposes instead of being beaten into confused apathys buy false education..data.. by those moronic self vested interest idiots, such people do exist. Its a shame they know no one else exists, while they drive others down to their level of non existence. Free thought is a enemy only to those who want it enslaved for purposes of evil. Some do kill for pleasure, it is not the free.
The universe has alot of growing up to do. And so do I. Whoever says there done I'll just laugh at.
=====================================
Tsquare

Edit:
A realization.....
I don't believe anyone who is influenced by the zodiac can have a full grasp of the zodaic as a whole....I believe it would be imposible, you'd have to step outside of it, casting off its filters tottaly, to see it as it is. I do believe that it is possible to do just that. Being within something and seeing that something from the outside is a difficult thing to do, it may be impossible. Thats what makes me think that the data or at least the old data of the zodaic that was left behind by the creators of the zodaic.....which is roumored to be alien in origion, While the zodaic was created for a slave colony.....uhhh.... But that all comes from remote viewers. and another guy who's last name is Stichen I believe Im horrible with names but I do believe I have posted an interview of his on this forum under an aquarius thread. so........
I wonder....
The most ancient of data to me anyhow seems to be the best.....
But what pieces did those that left behind that data, take with them?
How much TRUE data do we have to work with?
Who know's the full purpose of the Zodiac, the reason for its creation? Above there own opinion.
Now that would be interesting to see and know, wouldn't it.
So if anyone has ever left the house, please do tell.
You never know just who may pop up.
No Joke.



Just to let everyone know, I don't really know much about astrology....every time I think I do....something else is new, even if it's "old" its new to me, But I still wonder how it is that the original data that is usually held up as "source data" ever became so. It is in the research of the growth, or creation, of a subject that you get to see it's reasons for things being the way they are presented.
There are alot of "authorities" in this subject who also have "authorities" who have their "authorities" and one rarely gets a glimpse of things for ones self, therefore it's hard to make it real for ones self, alot fo times you get data that you must accept at face value.

So much for research.

Authorities I generally have contempt for when they present themselves as such and only as such. I think its natural while learning any subject, for teachers often present themselves as already knowing it all, and well, nowone knows it all. I will call any authority that still calls himself a student a true authority.
It's the curse of having a closed mind, and nothing is more expensive then a closed mind, in fact, I believe it will kill ones growth dead cold.
An open mind can never decide though either, but at least it looks.
A free mind can observe and make a logical decision based on data OR decide its not ready to, not enough data, not enough whatever.
It has a choice at least in that. In alot of areas of study room for that isn't always allowed.

So in astrology it may mean death to accept everything or even anything, at least too much, at face value. Or to accept it all as fact and create ones stable datum on one and only one system of thought, because well....there all just systems. And to be Honest they all may be right. Who know's for sure just how many layers we have over ourselves....and astrology may just be only one of those layers.
And untill we know just how astrology works to create its effects on the physical universe or just what and the hell it is....and I mean really is.....we are that far away from understanding it, it's purpose, and "our" own purpose within it or well.... without it.
We don't know it all yet.
Speak for myself?
ok then...your turn.

Edit:
Quote Archergirl:
Quote:
The asteroids, though? Nah. Just because scientists give it a particular name does not automatically endow it with mystical powers associated with its mythology. That's extrapolation (or wishful thinking) on the part of astrologers who use them.
My thought Exactly. Except I'll have to look up the word extrapolation and find all the million ways to use it. (laugh) New word for me.(smile)

It's just....where is all this new data coming from??
It seems like it's all so trecherous at times, like walking through a white paper blizzard of data, trying to grab a few offwhite pieces while they slap you in the face blowing by at 180MPH. There's just so much, that putting order into it is tricky. Because the one piece you use to judge the rest is latter found to be useless garbage, and the whole card house of goodies you had built on top of it tumbles to the ground when you try to Jenga it out from the bottom.
Jenga!!
======================tsquare
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Unread 07-10-2007, 02:38 AM
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Re: A Question For "Traditional Planets Only" Astrologers

Draco,

I have thought about this a time and I feel it is important for me to express my feeling on this thread. I do think that you were so totally quick to assume a certain stance that it nearly killed of this thread entirely. Your response was so Saturnian, coming down like the big father on high, and making the total judgement of what this question might open up or not, and why this was posted. I do beleive you overstate your knowledge of other peoples inner thoughts. You can never gain in relationship by expressing this, as you only ever end up supressing the other. I do understand you have a lot of heavy planets figuring highly in your chart so I understand that this is not necessarily preconceived.

Draco, you really did leave little room for Pixiequix to respond except in defence, which never allows for true discussion. Creating the space for play to begin is one of the most powerful places on earth......

Love Light and Peace
Flea
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Unread 07-10-2007, 05:01 AM
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Re: A Question For "Traditional Planets Only" Astrologers

hmm...interesting..
i cant say about western astro but vedic has been tested past thousands of yrs and still i believe, u dont have to look beyond saturn and 2 shadow planets with those 7 make everything
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Unread 07-10-2007, 08:32 AM
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Re: A Question For "Traditional Planets Only" Astrologers

Hi Pixiequix,

There is enough room for all styles of astrology, so why is there this need to query those who follow a form of astrology proven though the years to work very well using just the traditional planets?
Why should any astrologer have to add anything, if they find traditional astrology provides all the info they need to know?

Where you see traditional astrologers as "not evolving, refusing to grow", I see well-learned, highly qualified, people with a very good grasp of how astrology works and I admire their ability.

Each astrologer usually finds out what he/she needs to give an accurate analysis of the chart. Why add anything extra to a system that works on its own merit?

From reading posts in various astrology forums, I have noticed that those with a "need" to add all these extras to a chart, often show a frustration at understanding their charts. They pick out bits and pieces they think will help their chart. They seem to find blending the planets, signs, aspects difficult and struggle to see how it comes out though the Ascendant. I am finding it hard as well, and to add even more planets, asteroids etc, it can become a nightmare. Chiron - I can't ignore as it has always been present in the deaths in my family, and Pluto also has made his presence felt in my 12H and as part of a YOD.

I regret that my stance on preferring traditional astrology is seen as not evolving and refusing to grow. Life goes on with or without astrology. Each astrologer has the right to choose which path they take, and the right not to be judged, nor to be accused of "refusal to grow or continue evolving".

Cheers
Marg
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Unread 07-11-2007, 06:10 AM
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Re: A Question For "Traditional Planets Only" Astrologers

Pixiequix,

The space of play is most powerful when that place is opened up in a nondiscriminating way, for all. To reflect any negative reaction back is to amplify. When we transmute emotions through ourselves in positive ways, the creative becomes stronger in my opinion. There is always a fine line between standing up for yourself and fuelling the fire it takes time to find this balance and I continue to search for this continually.

Love Light and Peace
Flea
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Unread 07-11-2007, 10:28 PM
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I was asked to delete this post, so the thread can return to the topic.

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Unread 07-11-2007, 11:13 PM
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Re: A Question For "Traditional Planets Only" Astrologers

Quote:
It's pity this isn't a legit astrological discussion because I do have plenty to say about the topic. I apologize to the person who invited me to this thread - I think he/she was hoping I might contribute something of a more astrological vein.
Yes! please do, I'd most deffinatley like to hear what you have to offer.
excited.
==============================
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