Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

piercethevale

Well-known member
Well, I fupped duck.
As I was 'sitting and rockin' a moment ago and thinking about the 'House Panoply' as to the matter in question at this thread, I realized that if Virgo were to be thought of as to the first House then it would be Aquarius, and not Capricorn that would pertain to the 8th House.
As I don't really concern myself with the 'Matters' pertaining to the Houses at this present time I offer no apology as to my believing that it did [as I didn't say it to be a belief of mine]..only an apology for not being thorough in my quick assessment of a conclusive thought bourne out of the need to reply to the question itself, as to there being a possible alternative.
As there isn't many if any Astrologers that seem to agree 100% on all maters pertaining to the Houses , I don't feel there is one that can say I'm any 'Less' an astrologer for not doing so. My motto has always been, "Get the right tool for the job." By "the tool" in this sense I am referring, of course to using House systems that are not proven to be a correct system in the entirety of whatever 'system' they are presented [or purported] to be.

This doesn't in anyway affect or alter anything else I did post.
thanks, ptv
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
Now, that being said. The other thought I had is about the fact that it is Libra that is of the 7th House as to the system that is being discussed...ruled by Venus and given the job of keeping a balance is Saturn...
...then...

I see it simply being for the reason Mars, by its very nature, is not neutral, nor is it passive either for that matter. It is active and assertive. As the 7th house is about relationships and it's 'Key Phrase' is, "We Are"...

...Mars is all about "I Am"...
...simple... and like I said in my last post... 'Keep it Simple'...and you won't go wrong in thinking...and by that I mean either to the method or the means.

...and as always...IMHO...of course...!
 

tsmall

Premium Member
ptv, I'm a bit confused. Are you arguing for Aries as the 1st house, or Virgo? Also, are you saying that you don't believe that the Universe appeared out of whole cloth, and was created by some sort of "divine intelligence" for lack of a better term?

The one thing that confounded me in learning traditional astrology vs. modern is Jupiter as the "natural" ruler of the 9th. Because every time I saw the question of the 9th as "where is Jupiter in the chart?" it made sense once located...but here we can see that Jupiter is the natural ruler of the 9th, only the natural 9th is Pisces, not Sagittarius...
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
ptv, I'm a bit confused. Are you arguing for Aries as the 1st house, or Virgo? Also, are you saying that you don't believe that the Universe appeared out of whole cloth, and was created by some sort of "divine intelligence" for lack of a better term?

The one thing that confounded me in learning traditional astrology vs. modern is Jupiter as the "natural" ruler of the 9th. Because every time I saw the question of the 9th as "where is Jupiter in the chart?" it made sense once located...but here we can see that Jupiter is the natural ruler of the 9th, only the natural 9th is Pisces, not Sagittarius...
I am entreating the consideration of Virgo as the 1st House. Then I addressed the present issue and what seems to be the original point as to concerning the [so called]''Traditional" belief of Libra being that of the 7th House [and didn't see a need to state that this also implies Mars of the 1st House by my mentioning of Libra and the 7th] and what Mars is known to be of as of the precept, [and of Aries] "I Am" ...which I do concur with.

and, ps... I stated in an earlier post what I am currently [and in, all probability, will continue with until my demise] of enough belief in to use as a basis for all such questions that require such an answer. ...and yes, I do believe in a 'Creator that is omniscient, omnipotent and omniculpable. I hope I answered the question that I believe you have asked.

and pps, I don't adhere to Jupiter being the ruler of Sag. or Pisces. I believe, [due to the following statement by my brother and my subsequent consideration of what he stated] and my friend and clairvoyant, Clarisse, confirmed, upon my asking, whether the asteroids were once a Planet, and if so, if the Planet that once existed, is it then, still presently the ruler of those two signs. She confirmed this. Unfortunately, when I next asked her how to account for an influence as to ephemeral activity, she replied: "I see something like, 'worm holes', they're opening here and then there. Opening and closing, here and there."
...and I have related this anecdote before, but you probably didn't read the few threads I have posted it. My brother once told me of something he read in some book, that he presently can't recall the title of [or forgets which of the hundreds {or thousands...as it may well be over a couple of thousand presently} of books he's read in his life to date...as I don't believe he's entirely forgotten any books' title he's ever read; at least not since High School.] which I don't doubt was some very esoteric and or occult and probably as obscure a book, as any might be, that: "Lucifer is said to have shattered that Planet, deliberately, to confuse 'Mans' psyche."
 
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tsmall

Premium Member
Thanks to JUPITERASC on another thread (about chart rectification) I think we can see a practical reason, using the Thema, as to why Venus joys in the 5th. If Venus is the natural ruler of the 4th as the Mother, it absolutely makes sense that she would joy in the 5th, the house of (among other things) children and childbirth. :joyful:
 

Southpaw

Banned
I did a forum search, and couldn't find this topic as a discussion of what the Thema is, which doesn't surprise me since it seems to belong only to the realm of traditional astrology...but I wanted to post it here because so many members seem hesitant to visit that forum.

For those who are unfamiliar with it, the Thema is mythically considered the chart of the world, and literally was historically used as a teaching tool for astrologers. In it you can find the reasons for the domicile rulers, the exaltations, the planetary joys, the nature of the aspects, sect...on and on it goes.

This pdf is a good starting point for understanding

http://www.azastrologers.org/Articles/NoblehorseThemaMundi.pdf

And here is one picture I found that graphically shows the Thema from the same pdf.

So, let's consider. Most astrologers (as far as I know both traditional and modern) consider Aries to be the "natural" first house. Why? Especially if Cancer rises in the Thema, that would make Cancer the real "natural" first house, ruled by the Moon, and when we think of people...how we evolved out of the sea (water), how we have always considered the Moon as the mother...this makes sense to me. Leo as the natural second house? What does the second signify? The resources that support the body (ASC/1st?) Further, ancient astrology considered that the Moon did represent the body...again this makes sense if cancer rises.

I don't have a lot of time right now (hey, three girls and a zoo and all that) but am interested to hear any other members ideas on this?
but it is
the Moon that rules the irrational or instinctive
mind, the familiar mental processes
Air Moons must be great to have. They are instinctively rational people.

Finally, in Hellenistic astrology, the 6th
House traditionally showed enemies, as well as
accidents and injuries. And so we have Mars,
cause of injury
The potentially negative influence of Mars isn't so negative in this case. The native can beat up their enemies instead!:w00t:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

The potentially negative influence of Mars isn't so negative in this case. The native can beat up their enemies instead!
:w00t:
That's because regarding the particular case you refer to Southpaw, Hellenistic astrology states that the 6th is Cadent house - here's some info on the subject from previous discussion on another thread viewable at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=349159#post349159

(a) planets located in ANY Cadent house direct their energies away from the native and towards others instead :smile:

(b) planets located in ANY Cadent house produce few, if any events
and/or are unlikely and/or less likely to produce many/if any events

(c) Cadent houses are the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th

Therefore any planets located in the 12th (or any other Cadent house) in Hellenistic astrology direct their energies away from the native. When considering the malefics, this is regarded - in a sense - as good for the native
.

However, I assume that if the native then somehow causes harm to others in any way, then obviously the native suffers the consequences of their actions
.
Thus receiving consequences of the action of malefics in 12th or any other Cadent house


Benefics in 12th (or any other Cadent House) also direct their energies away from the native so this is regarded - in a sense - as not so good for the native.

However, the native may 'do good work for the benefit of others' and thus may receive some 'indirect' reward. There are additional considerations such as planetary aspect or configuration between domicile and exaltation lords.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Bump......
Join Patricia Awyan as she walks you through the Zodiac found on the ceiling
of the PRONAOS OF HATHOR TEMPLE IN DENDERA :smile:
Learn how the Ancients used symbolism to tell a greater story
- the story of consciousness and creation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iabPmxh9tc4

even Diodorus Siculus explained
in his work BIBLIOTHECA HISTORICA FIRST BOOK CHAPTER LXXXI

"There is no country where the position and movements of celestial bodies are observed with greater accuracy than in Egypt"

The ancient Egyptians were such advanced astronomers
that they even identified the modern constellations as we see them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqSNvHDg3G8
 

Purple9

Well-known member
"Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

(a) planets located in ANY Cadent house direct their energies away from the native and towards others instead :smile:

(b) planets located in ANY Cadent house produce few, if any events
and/or are unlikely and/or less likely to produce many/if any events

(c) Cadent houses are the 3rd, 5th, 9th and 12th"


Why 5th JupiterASC? What am I missing?


 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
"Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

(a) planets located in ANY Cadent house direct their energies away from the native and towards others instead :smile:

(b) planets located in ANY Cadent house produce few, if any events
and/or are unlikely and/or less likely to produce many/if any events

(c) Cadent houses are the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th"


Why 5th JupiterASC? What am I missing?


So you noticed the deliberate mistake which means you read my post :smile:
Siriusly
You missed nothing, but instead are on target

The Cadents are 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th
and thanks for helping me to correct that error
the comment is from the HELLENISTIC DELINEATION discussion
at
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43920


 
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Purple9

Well-known member
So you noticed the deliberate mistake which means you read my post :smile:
Siriusly
You missed nothing, but instead are on target

The Cadents are 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th
and thanks for helping me to correct that error
the comment is from the HELLENISTIC DELINEATION discussion
at
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43920



Phew....I panicked at 3 am :). Thanks for more reading material - that one takes it from the 'beginning' - cool.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Join Patricia Awyan as she walks you through the Zodiac found on the ceiling
of the PRONAOS OF HATHOR TEMPLE IN DENDERA :smile:
Learn how the Ancients used symbolism to tell a greater story
- the story of consciousness and creation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iabPmxh9tc4

even Diodorus Siculus explained
in his work BIBLIOTHECA HISTORICA FIRST BOOK CHAPTER LXXXI

"There is no country where the position and movements of celestial bodies are observed with greater accuracy than in Egypt"

The ancient Egyptians were such advanced astronomers
that they even identified the modern constellations as we see them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqSNvHDg3G8

There are some indications that the Ancient-Egyptians may have been able to recognize Ouranos:uranus: as a Planet, even though Greek Astrologers could only see it as a very faint star.
 

SunConjunctUranus

Well-known member
I understand that
(a) planets located in ANY Cadent house direct their energies away from the native and towards others instead.

(b) planets located in ANY Cadent house produce few, if any events
and/or are unlikely and/or less likely to produce many/if any events

(c) Cadent houses are the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th

Therefore any planets located in the 12th (or any other Cadent house) in Hellenistic astrology direct their energies away from the native. When considering the malefics, this is regarded - in a sense - as good for the native
.

However, I assume that if the native then somehow causes harm to others in any way, then obviously the native suffers the consequences of their actions
. Thus receiving consequences of the action of malefics in 12th or any other Cadent house

Configuration and/or aspects between domicile and exaltation lords of malefics in 12th would require additional study.


Benefics in 12th (or any other Cadent House) also direct their energies away from the native so this is regarded - in a sense - as not so good for the native.

However, the native may 'do good work for the benefit of others' and thus may receive some 'indirect' reward. There are additional considerations such as planetary aspect or configuration between domicile and exaltation lords.


Although the 9th house is a Cadent House it is configured to the Ascendant and thus my understanding is that any planets located in 9th are therefore potentially able to do business: the 3rd is also Cadent yet configured to the Ascendant although the extent to which planets are fit to do business when located therein requires more research as it seems likely to be yet another of those areas where, for excellent and interesting reasons, opinions tend to differ :smile:

Thank you for this is very thoughful post. It make a sense why malefics considered joyful in cadent house. However, I noticed in Thema Mundi 6th house and 9th house naturally ruled by Jupiter. This following picture would be helpful :



courtesy by DEMETRA GEORGE https://rubedo.press/propaganda/2018/12/21/first-five-steps

For me personally I don't understand why 6th house and 9th house considered as "cadent house" [lame house from my own understanding] despite naturally ruled by Jupiter? Which is so-called benefic star in it's nature by one of Hellenistic astrologers.

QUOTE "Jupiter indicates childbearing, engendering, desire, loves, political ties, acquaintance, friendships with
great men, prosperity, salaries, great gifts, an abundance of crops, justice, offices, officeholding, ranks,
authority over temples, arbitrations, trusts, inheritance, brotherhood, fellowship, beneficence, the secure
possession of goods, relief from troubles, release from bonds, freedom, deposits in trust, money,
stewardships, Of the external body parts it rules the thighs and the feet. (Consequently in the games
Jupiter governs the race.)" END OF QUOTE
Source : http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

Please if any members who have a greater understanding on Thema Mundi to explain this. Thank you in advance.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Thank you for this is very thoughful post. It make a sense why malefics considered joyful in cadent house. However, I noticed in Thema Mundi 6th house and 9th house naturally ruled by Jupiter. This following picture would be helpful :



courtesy by DEMETRA GEORGE https://rubedo.press/propaganda/2018/12/21/first-five-steps

For me personally I don't understand why 6th house and 9th house considered as "cadent house" [lame house from my own understanding] despite naturally ruled by Jupiter? Which is so-called benefic star in it's nature by one of Hellenistic astrologers.

QUOTE "Jupiter indicates childbearing, engendering, desire, loves, political ties, acquaintance, friendships with
great men, prosperity, salaries, great gifts, an abundance of crops, justice, offices, officeholding, ranks,
authority over temples, arbitrations, trusts, inheritance, brotherhood, fellowship, beneficence, the secure
possession of goods, relief from troubles, release from bonds, freedom, deposits in trust, money,
stewardships, Of the external body parts it rules the thighs and the feet. (Consequently in the games
Jupiter governs the race.)" END OF QUOTE
Source : http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf

Please if any members who have a greater understanding on Thema Mundi to explain this. Thank you in advance.
Sun,
-
9th IS Cadent
HOWEVER
9th being trigon ascendant
is considered "best" of Cadent houses :smile:

also

THEMA MUNDI Jupiter-ruled PISCES is on 9th




images



THEMA MUNDI ancient astrological teaching tool has multiple layers of meaning
check significations of 9th





astrological-houses-02.jpg


 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Many layers to explore :smile:
earlier on this thread tsmall highlights
that Libra is the Exaltation of Saturn
and so
Thema Mundi Saturn "....is exalted by Venus
in the house that signifies home roots"
- particularly appropriate
since Venus is one of the significations of the mother
uniting the parental significations associated with the 4th
as well as highlighting Saturns affiliation with death
because 4th is the "house of endings" among other things

...If you look at the Thema chart, take the 4th house.
Libra, ruled by Venus
(one of the traditional significations of the mother),
the exaltation of Saturn.
If we play with the ideas a bit, Libra is the natural 4th house.
Saturn (the father) has a natural affinity with the 4th
(well, that makes a ton of sense, now doesn't it?)
and is exalted by Venus in the house that signifies "home/roots."
This also gives us Saturn's affiliation with death, as
the 4th represents death among other things.
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
Either you use the traditional planet Thema Mundi, the modern planet version, or the proposal to give Taurus and Virgo two planets each, while this link shows this is already done for Scorpio, Aquarius and Pisces.

https://www.liveabout.com/ruling-planets-of-the-zodiac-signs-4686674

JupiterASC, the chart of the world shows both the Moon and rising point is at 15' Cancer, but I suggest the Moon is at 22' Leo, Mercury should be 15' Virgo and Venus at 10' Libra. In astronomy, Mercury is never beyond 27' of the Sun and Venus is never beyond 47' of the Sun as well. All the planets are below the astronomical horizon to not be visible in the sky at the time of the sun at 2nd house (early morning hours). Due to the sun's astronomical degree, the day has to be on August 15th and the moon is in a waning crescent (26th day of the lunar month) which rises before sunrise. And I can't determine the year when the thema mundi happened, but I guess 12-13,000 years ago, so the date of the "beginning of the world" in astrology is in the Virgo age (March 20 equinox) - it has to be on the month of March, 10 days before the northern spring starts.
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
Sun,
-
9th IS Cadent
HOWEVER
9th being trigon ascendant
is considered "best" of Cadent houses :smile:

also

THEMA MUNDI Jupiter-ruled PISCES is on 9th




images



THEMA MUNDI ancient astrological teaching tool has multiple layers of meaning
check significations of 9th





astrological-houses-02.jpg



Other qualities of the houses in an astrological wheel in natal charts to add:
1st - Individuality and soul (house under Aries, naturally the ascendant).
2nd - Wealth, Culinary or food, fashion and Luxury (house under Taurus).
3rd - Communities and neighborhoods (house under Gemini, usual place for IC. Gemini has a partial feminine nature, note the twins and ruled by Mercury).
4th - Relationship with the mother, and looking to the past (house under Cancer, usual place for IC. Where's the father house? Ruled by the Moon).
5th - Pregnancy, romance, relationships and expansion (house under Leo - more Cancerian and like the 3rd, it seems Cancerian as well, ruled by Sun).
6th - Addiction and disease (house under Virgo, nearing the descendant).
7th - Desires and looking to the future (house under Libra, the "midpoint").
8th - Sexuality, dark arts, family inheritance and taboos (house under Scorpio, a malefic house like the 6th and 12th, and ruled either by Mars and Pluto).
9th - Religion (house under Sagittarius, usual place for MC or midheaven).
10th - Business (house under Capricorn, usual place for MC or midheaven).
11th - Unique, bizarre and comical (house under Aquarius, our current age).
and 12th - Prisons and hospitals (house under Pisces, the final one or ending).
 
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