Chiron square Venus= gender identity crisis?

I came across this aspect marked on astro.com as one of the active transits but I found something new in regard to this Chiron sq Venus on a site regarding 'gender identity' crisis.
I've been unsure about being 'happy' about being born a woman but I do enjoy it most of the times. It is true for me that I can very comfortably play male-female roles & really haven't been sure of my sexual orientation being straight or bi since my religion/culture doesn't allow 'experimenting', so I wanted some light shed on this feature in regard to gender-roles & homosexuality. Does this really cause gender-crisis or prompt towards 'becoming the opposite'? I'm actually very feminine in physique & fashion but male-dominant thought patterns.
The attached advise was counselling Mars/Venus positions in detail. Mine is a trine.
This is very new for me so I hope someone comments because I'm dying to know.

Hi blackempress. Yes transiting Chiron is making a T-square to your very close natal Venus Uranus opposition at the moment. Since Venus symbolises the need for sensual pleasure, and also your awareness of your own femininity, Uranus will challenge any tendency to conformity or stagnation in these areas of life. Venus in Gemini is already inclined to seek variety through relationships, so this airy Venus is not necessarily going to be in a tug of war with opposing Uranus - more likely Uranus will stimulate Venus' need for new stimulation.

It's interesting that Uranus is in the 9th house of beliefs, since sexual experimentation would involve breaking away from the belief system that you are expected to follow, and choosing to align yourself with a new and more liberating perspective on life. (I know that applying oneself to a belief system with discipline can itself be liberating - but I think Uranus in the 9th generally seeks a perspective which allows independent thought first and foremost.)

It's also interesting that the issue you are facing is due to the collective issues encroaching on your personal life, which is very Chironian. The Venus Chiron conjunction in your natal chart is quite wide and separating, but you may still feel it. And of course as you have decided to look into this issue while transiting Chiron is not only aspecting both Venus and Chiron very closely, but is also exactly on your Venus Chiron midpoint at the moment. Transiting Chiron is in your 12th house, suggesting that the collective influences that you are grappling with at the moment have been carried by your family for some generations (belief systems and cultural biases tend to be passed on this way, I know, so this is a pretty obvious comment, but the 12th house does have this link to previous generations, so I thought I'd throw it in. It could be that you are dealing with something that (a) recent ancestor(s) also experienced, but this would be more likely if your Chiron was natally in the 12th.)

Some other things about your natal chart that I'd like to mention with regard to your post are:

Libra (which contains your Moon - especially important in this chart because your Sun is in Cancer) looks to find a balance, rather than identifying with one end of a polarity. It is common from what I've read for strongly Libran women to adopt some of the traits that tend to be associated with men, and vice versa for strongly Libran men. Perhaps your 'male thought patterns' are reflected by Mercury in Gemini in the 3rd making close trines to Mars and Saturn. (By the way I think your Venus trine Mars is much too wide to consider.)

Another thing perhaps worth pointing out is that you have Saturn in the 7th house suggesting that you may feel pressured to conform with regard to relationships, and that you may fear loneliness as a consequence of going against the grain. Saturn is also capable of great self-determination, though, once unnecessary fears are set aside - some of Saturn's social awareness is of course useful and productive.) With Saturn ruling the 11th, you may fear that friends would also turn away from you if you do not fit in enough.

Mars in Libra in the 7th house conjunct Saturn suggests that the energy that you would use to pursue a desired partner, as well as the energy you would use to affirm your right to be true to yourself, is influenced by a need to conform to the expectations of others. So this is something you may need to reflect on in order to free yourself to make the decisions that are right for you. You might also need to be on guard against giving your initiative and authority away to partners and other significant people in your life.

Pluto is near the 8th cusp, suggesting that you may feel compelled to explore taboos in the area of intimacy. Interestingly, Pluto here rules the 9th house and Jupiter, both of which are concerned with beliefs, with Jupiter in the 8th. There is a sense, I think, that you will always want to dig deeply and ask profound questions of belief systems, which others may fear to ask due to the upheaval and identity crises that would follow. There is also a suggestion that you need a philosophy of life which acknowledges the primal passions of human nature.

With Pisces rising and Neptune on the IC, spirituality may be very important to you, and you may have a strong need to feel at one with those around you, and with the world at large. I'm not sure how this fits with the issues you raised in your post. It could make it difficult for you to stand apart from others and be individualistic.

I left out your Sun, which would not do at the moment as it is being transited by Pluto (opposition) and soon also Uranus (square)! With transiting Uranus making this hit from the first house, and Pluto transiting from the 10th, these transits could see you feeling an urge to redefine yourself in the eyes of the world. Sun in Cancer in the 4th often need s to break its identification with the family of origin in order to more fully develop that Solar vitality and sense of purpose.

I don't know if this will add anything useful to your perspective, but I'd be interested in your response either way...

Thank you so much for such a fantastic response. You covered alot of area which was very interesting to read. I'm on amateur level so don't understand the 'obvious' transits to the experts.*

I'm seeing Uranus important in this regard for the first time now that you mentioned it. All info provided is accurate. I am in a state of transitions & all that you said of the personal-family-world at large is correct. I have a very strong desire to break away from everyone & actually Have. Currently sensuality is desired but "conforming" to cultural values by not changing but uranian temptations of trying something new is definitely there ESP in sexual areas. Venusian highlight of feminine expression is a marked feature (came as shock to family & all those around bec it was sudden) with high heels, jewellery etc. All that I'd dare not display before.*

Libran trait possibly true. I do find women sexy wearing men's attire. thanks for the highlight on male dominant thinking.*

The only disappointing feature is perhaps the 'can't b individualistic'. But it's true that I want to envelope the world. I've always craved a place amongst the masses.*

Very interesting was the point made as being unaccepted even by friends. 100% true. That has been an issue too. Some ppl feel I'm a lesbian & it creates tension & some females even avoid meeting me out of that fear though I'd never even hugged em or anything.*

So lately I've moved away from every single person from family- friends- relatives & had been working with dealing with old wounds solely.*

In regard to my question is there any real gender crisis associated? Besides the libran trait? I personally don't feel the need to be transsexual or asexual but was just curious.
Overall quite insightful. Anything else would *more than welcome. I'm a huge fan of astro n hoping I can understand it to interpret as well.*

Thanks again its been a great pleasure.*

I've read the occasional post on the internet about Chiron/Venus conjunction indicating sexual identity crisis and I have my doubts about it. If gays' or lesbians' charts were full of these patterns, surely it would have been wider publicised and talked about, not speculated here and there. I can certainly see how having a chiron/venus wound would center around the lack of harmony in relationships and could mean any kind of abuse in childhood causing a crisis with the Self.

I think it is difficult for a growing child to grow up with some sort of abuse or constant problems in relationships, making it hard for the child to identify with a particular parent or gender. Especially if it involves emotional/sexual abuse and survival depends on becoming more masculine and aggressive. But then, any kind of abuse could make a child abandon his real Self and behaviour and adopt a different approach that may not be real. Problem is, when playing a role, pretty soon you get confused.

I think the Chiron/Venus wound centers around these issues and that the sexual identity crisis may come as a result of this, not as a rule.

I have a close Chiron/Venus conjunction and Saturn in the 7th and I think miguar gave excellent advice. I've felt the pressure to conform a lot in relationships and had rejection when I didn't want to and I think this coupled with the Chiron/Venus conjunction can bring a lot of loneliness but also a lot of inner strength and character.

BE, after your Saturn return (which you are having now), you may feel yourself taking increased responsibility for yourself and having a tough childhood can be transformed into strength of character.

Blackempress said:

so I wanted some light shed on this feature in regard to gender-roles & homosexuality.

Click to expand...

It is interesting how the beliefs of the time and culture you live in, influence your sense of self-esteem in the world. If a man is born into a time, family or culture where it is acceptable to express his feminine side and he has a strong feminine side, he grows up with a stronger sense of balance and feels good about himself. But if he is born into circumstances where being true to himself would expose him to ridicule or perhaps physical harm, it can ruin his sense of self. Such a person could perhaps turn to being gay in an effort to be more true to himself.

If you look at people's charts, some men or women are overly strong in one particular 'gender'. Then there is also the stereotype that women should be 'feminine' and men 'masculine'. It then clashes with the reality of the person's characteristics in their chart, with their cultural beliefs, religious beliefs, family values, expectations... the list goes on.

It is an interesting mix of things that could give people a gender identity crisis. What is also interesting, is that some people are more than happy to continue being gay or lesbian and be quite at peace with themselves.

I've given all of these things much thought over the years. Whatever natural characteristics you have is usually judged by society according to the outer circumstances. And how you deal with it, is going to be up to you. When I was a young child I was very feminine and intuitive (which my chart reflects) but the environment and people in it had their impact and a child sometimes make spontaneous adjustments when it is not safe to express itself naturally. I compromised and made the choice by becoming more masculine in order to survive, when instead I could have kept true to my self. When studying astrology from a psychological point of view, the hope is to acknowledge the wounds, unnatural behaviour and self-compromising choices we made and return to a natural state of being and have peace.

I should write a book on this as I can go on and on. My point is that we naturally have both feminine and masculine characteristics in our charts, some tip more to one side perhaps. But things start to go wrong in childhood as we make self-compromising choices and feel that there is something wrong with us.

Hope that gave you some food for thought Blackempress.

I saw the gender identity issue written up in a book on chiron, but the author is describing this if a person has chiron square venus NATALLY in their birth chart, not as a transit.
Natally you have a wide conjunction of 7 degrees between chiron and venus. Depending on the astrologer, some would consider this too wide of an orb for chiron.

I found this for hard chiron to venus transits:
"Very commonly with these transits, you deal with others doubting your character in your love life, and you could feel like you're forced into a position of proving yourself. Your first reaction is to do just that prove yourself to a partner or lover. However, you eventually realize how fruitless this effort is. If this transit comes at a time when you are single, it can be a period in which new people in your love life are unable or unwilling to commit to you, who fail to see you as worthy of partnership material." from cafeastrology.com

When Venus and Mars are in air signs often that is an indicator of gender identity crises. Gemini especially is an asexual or neutral influence. Chiron is not square Venus in this chart. THe LIbran influence can mean finding a balance and could involve bi sexuality.

Flowergirl said:

I've read the occasional post on the internet about Chiron/Venus conjunction indicating sexual identity crisis and I have my doubts about it. If gays' or lesbians' charts were full of these patterns, surely it would have been wider publicised and talked about, not speculated here and there. I can certainly see how having a chiron/venus wound would center around the lack of harmony in relationships and could mean any kind of abuse in childhood causing a crisis with the Self.

I think it is difficult for a growing child to grow up with some sort of abuse or constant problems in relationships, making it hard for the child to identify with a particular parent or gender. Especially if it involves emotional/sexual abuse and survival depends on becoming more masculine and aggressive. But then, any kind of abuse could make a child abandon his real Self and behaviour and adopt a different approach that may not be real. Problem is, when playing a role, pretty soon you get confused.

I think the Chiron/Venus wound centers around these issues and that the sexual identity crisis may come as a result of this, not as a rule.

I have a close Chiron/Venus conjunction and Saturn in the 7th and I think miguar gave excellent advice. I've felt the pressure to conform a lot in relationships and had rejection when I didn't want to and I think this coupled with the Chiron/Venus conjunction can bring a lot of loneliness but also a lot of inner strength and character.

BE, after your Saturn return (which you are having now), you may feel yourself taking increased responsibility for yourself and having a tough childhood can be transformed into strength of character.

Click to expand...

Thank you for that grand highlight Flowergirl. I have to tell you that You SHOULD write a book on this because you have a great gift for expression (Which I bet you already know).
Sexual abuse is a marked feature of my childhood which began in primary school & hung on till adulthood. But my inherent strength pulled me out of many disasters & at this point I am a strong person who isn't really displaced much by other's opinions because I've already accepted my individuality & have strongly experienced alienation supported by Saturn to remain detached in order to avoid conformity. I have NO Personal relationships left in my life.

The social factor in building self-esteem is very interesting & can't be argued. In general I HAVE to follow the beaten road & traditions but possibly Neptune allows me to escape into fantasy experiences where I enjoy my own uniqueness (Role-play-games) & can express my personal desires without restrain so am not really as shattered as normal people would be expected to turn out.

As for gender-issues agreed some people are happy to take on their relationships as they are probably those with stronger Uranus/mars aspects likely, not mine I believe. But Saturn has really shaped up my life & given me the strength to judge myself without others & still have the empathy for the world.

Thanks so much!

Claire, You are probably correct. Thanks.

miquar said:

I left out your Sun, which would not do at the moment as it is being transited by Pluto (opposition) and soon also Uranus (square)! With transiting Uranus making this hit from the first house, and Pluto transiting from the 10th, these transits could see you feeling an urge to redefine yourself in the eyes of the world. Sun in Cancer in the 4th often need s to break its identification with the family of origin in order to more fully develop that Solar vitality and sense of purpose.
.

Click to expand...

Could you please elucidate this point or tell me if I should make another thread. You pointed out a VERY Significant mark in my life right now... Uranus in 1st house square (which I don't understand in transit but know because I'm feeling it already). I feel ALIEN/Invisible even within my home/family! It has been a chironian feature indeed that hasn't been resolved out of multiple fears but the question "SHOULD I LEAVE MY FAMILY?" has been ringing in my head since the past few months. Can you give me an answer to that question from the chart.. I know there's no definite but perhaps an indication (I know my sun -moon sq in natal makes family important but still)

Chiron thread
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9786
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=286
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17165
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11976

Further discussions on AW and links from this thread….
http://www.moonsweb.com/ast/chiron.shtml
http://www.aquarianage.org/west/planets/ch-nat01.html
http://www.astrotherapy.eu/Chiron.htm
http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/chiron21.5.html
http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/chiron.html
http://www.martinlass.com/chiron.htm
http://www.zanestein.com/chiron_a.htm
http://www.pathwaytoascension.com/astrology/lesson6.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=4rnvfxrc4LwC&pg=PT1&dq=astrology+chiron&lr=lang_en&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&as_brr=0&ei=wMfUSoj-HI6MNdHKzYcO#v=onepage&q=astrology%20chiron&f=false

I don't see chiron conj venus working here. What I do see is venus opp uranus. and Jupiter in 8th is highly sexed and would experiment whatever....In Equal house pluto would be 8th wanting to research taboo subjects like sex,occult

Pluto in 8th House - succeedent
· Occult things ‑ born with interest in psychic awareness.
· Always interested in partner and feelings.
· Obsessed with sex. Sexual problems if badly afflicted
· Shrewd in business and dealing with other people's money, inheritance, wills, insurances

there is also a basic sun square moon aspect suggesting a need to explore the male/female roles and learning how to interegrate them within self..

shows conflict in certain aspects of the life. Self-expression is blocked by emotional hangups or habit patterns that may be inherited or conditioned by past events. Family and domestic affairs keep you from developing the way you would like. The conditions in your early family environment may have caused difficulties in understanding and getting along with the opposite sex. In these relationships you can be too argumentative and defensive. You may need to get the chip off your shoulder sometimes. This aspect suggests a conflict between the ego and the emotions. tension between your outer and inner self.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sunaspects.html#susmo

Click to expand...

http://www.cafeastrology.com/natal/sunmoonaspects.html
http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology/aspectssun.htm#nasuaspmoo

Neptune in Square to Ascendant
You can be whatever you can imagine yourself to be. You may have some inner doubts about yourself that make it difficult for others to pick up a strong impression of whom you really are. Until you cultivate a firmer picture of whom you really want to be, other people will continue to find it hard to figure out the real you. This can be a plus if you're an actor or a spy. It comes in handy if you ever need to blend into the background, too
http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology/aspectsneptune.htm

Click to expand...

Hi Blackempress. There were a few things that came to mind after I posted. On e has already been mentioned by Claire19 - the androgynous quality of Gemini, and perhaps the air element in general.

Another was that you may find women who dress as men attractive because of Mars Saturn in the 7th, the house that often signifies much of what we look for in others. The Moon there too perhaps says something about your seeing women as potential partners, and since it is in Libra this may reflect why you aren't so attracted to stereotypical women, but rather women whose appearance is balanced by a 'male input'. And of course the Moon is in harmonious aspect to the Venus Uranus opposition, meaning that any tension in the opposition can find an outlet through that 7th house Moon.

Finally, and this is speculative and tentatively suggested, with your Ascendant in Pisces, you perhaps came into the world looking for a paradise garden and may have been sorely disappointed. With Neptune on the MC, you may have idealised your Mother and yet been disappointed in her - perhaps because she was unavailable in some way. with your Moon and Venus in air signs and houses, both closely aspecting Uranus, she may have been more detached than the Neptune MC expectations might have wished.It is possible that your attraction to women is linked to your still trying to find Neptune's paradise garden through them, having projected unfinished business with your Mother onto them.

In a sense its neither here nor there whether this is true or not, because your present feelings are what they are, and there's nothing wrong with them whatever their root. But this phenomena is quite common and well documented, so I thought I'd mention it since I imagine that Pisces rising and Neptune on the MC may make it relevant to you.

As for the transits to Sun, I'm not surprised that you have been thinking about separating yourself from your family. There's no way for me to know what the right path for you is. I guess the key thing is to separate your Solar sense of individuality and uniqueness from identification with your family's values and forms of creative expression (or lack of!) I'm sorry to hear that abuse featured in your childhood, and admire the strength and perspective that you seem to have come out of it with. I'm sure that as you explore and express who you really are, you will find that the right people will be around you more and more, whoever they may be and whether or not any of them are from your past. I think families often need a cooling-off period when one of their members goes against the grain, so it might be an idea not to burn any bridges if possible, but to subtly put enough distance (on whatever level) between you and them so that you can blossom at this very important time. Then they can have time to get used to things without everything blowing up and people saying things that are difficult to take back or forget.

One last thought, which you don't have to respond to, obviously, is that the strong connections between Pluto/Scorpio and beliefs (Jupiter/9th) could reflect that somehow the abuse that you suffered was linked to some hypocritical sexual behaviour on the part of someone who held strong beliefs???

astrologer50 said:

I don't see chiron conj venus working here. What I do see is venus opp uranus. and Jupiter in 8th is highly sexed and would experiment whatever....In Equal house pluto would be 8th wanting to research taboo subjects like sex,occult

Pluto in 8th House - succeedent
· Occult things ‑ born with interest in psychic awareness.
· Always interested in partner and feelings.
· Obsessed with sex. Sexual problems if badly afflicted
· Shrewd in business and dealing with other people's money, inheritance, wills, insurances

there is also a basic sun square moon aspect suggesting a need to explore the male/female roles and learning how to interegrate them within self..

[/FONT][/COLOR]

Click to expand...

I'm always impressed with your insights. Thanks alot for the links as usual. I'm browsing through all of them currently. Well said bout Pluto's position, I can now understand where all this change is suddenly crawling into me from -which others are finding quite surprising. All cent% correctly stated. I was going to ask the 'Obsession' part then realized the position & concerned Scorpio/Jupiter/Pluto presence together. I also have an intense desire to delve into astrology seriously.

Infact the Jupiter expansiveness has aroused an urge to try drugs but self-control/ external restrictions prevent from that area. Nevertheless for experience sake, I wouldn't mind.

Sun-Moon I suppose is a forever challenge

Thanks so much for your input.

miquar said:

Hi Blackempress. There were a few things that came to mind after I posted. On e has already been mentioned by Claire19 - the androgynous quality of Gemini, and perhaps the air element in general.

Another was that you may find women who dress as men attractive because of Mars Saturn in the 7th, the house that often signifies much of what we look for in others. The Moon there too perhaps says something about your seeing women as potential partners, and since it is in Libra this may reflect why you aren't so attracted to stereotypical women, but rather women whose appearance is balanced by a 'male input'. And of course the Moon is in harmonious aspect to the Venus Uranus opposition, meaning that any tension in the opposition can find an outlet through that 7th house Moon.

Finally, and this is speculative and tentatively suggested, with your Ascendant in Pisces, you perhaps came into the world looking for a paradise garden and may have been sorely disappointed. With Neptune on the MC, you may have idealised your Mother and yet been disappointed in her - perhaps because she was unavailable in some way. with your Moon and Venus in air signs and houses, both closely aspecting Uranus, she may have been more detached than the Neptune MC expectations might have wished.It is possible that your attraction to women is linked to your still trying to find Neptune's paradise garden through them, having projected unfinished business with your Mother onto them.

In a sense its neither here nor there whether this is true or not, because your present feelings are what they are, and there's nothing wrong with them whatever their root. But this phenomena is quite common and well documented, so I thought I'd mention it since I imagine that Pisces rising and Neptune on the MC may make it relevant to you.

As for the transits to Sun, I'm not surprised that you have been thinking about separating yourself from your family. There's no way for me to know what the right path for you is. I guess the key thing is to separate your Solar sense of individuality and uniqueness from identification with your family's values and forms of creative expression (or lack of!) I'm sorry to hear that abuse featured in your childhood, and admire the strength and perspective that you seem to have come out of it with. I'm sure that as you explore and express who you really are, you will find that the right people will be around you more and more, whoever they may be and whether or not any of them are from your past. I think families often need a cooling-off period when one of their members goes against the grain, so it might be an idea not to burn any bridges if possible, but to subtly put enough distance (on whatever level) between you and them so that you can blossom at this very important time. Then they can have time to get used to things without everything blowing up and people saying things that are difficult to take back or forget.

One last thought, which you don't have to respond to, obviously, is that the strong connections between Pluto/Scorpio and beliefs (Jupiter/9th) could reflect that somehow the abuse that you suffered was linked to some hypocritical sexual behaviour on the part of someone who held strong beliefs???

Click to expand...

Thanks again for the addition. Very interesting indeed to learn bout the gender roles, atleast now I can come to 'accept' them to myself internally even if unexpressed.

I can clearly tell from here particularly the moon-venus aspect that lesbianism is a possibility. Well, the Uranus-Venus doesn't possibly mind I bet. Lol. I definitely agree bout liking 'balanced' women better than stereotypes & perhaps interesting info for you, 'I' play the male-counterpart. I like to 'add' a masculine flavor by wearing a tie over a dress-shirt.. so that's very cool to know! Infact most of my close female friends said "I wish you were a man, I'd love to marry you".

The Neptune on MC, is a feature I need more psychological grinding into especially the mother issue but agreed that women I select even in friends are 'motherly' (generally detached/unavailable types again but sensitive)

The family-self identification, your suggested approach is the route I've taken for now but really feel like going back to the warm arms as I'm experiencing Saturn's loneliness yet it conflicts inside to do so especially because it might lead to typical relationships again. Nevertheless advise much appreciated. Have the last of the Chiron's unfinished business to handle.

As for the last comment, which I don't mind discussing (you know the AIRY intellectualized emotions for me) if I correctly understood... but don't think I can give an exact answer because I had multiple oppressors to deal with.

Thanks alot!

fushiafairy said:

I found this for hard chiron to venus transits:
"Very commonly with these transits, you deal with others doubting your character in your love life, and you could feel like you're forced into a position of proving yourself. Your first reaction is to do just that prove yourself to a partner or lover. However, you eventually realize how fruitless this effort is. If this transit comes at a time when you are single, it can be a period in which new people in your love life are unable or unwilling to commit to you, who fail to see you as worthy of partnership material." from cafeastrology.com

Click to expand...

Probably very true especially currently because I tend to get into multiple relationships together & dump 'em before replacing them with another set altogether.

Hi. Thanks again for all the feedback. It sounds as though your Cancer Sun colours your taste in partners also - motherly and sensitive.

miquar said:

It sounds as though your Cancer Sun colours your taste in partners also - motherly and sensitive.

Click to expand...

Women in platonic relationships only so far. Hate men with feminine characteristics especially the 'motherly-doting' kind. I'm always a sucker for Aquarian or Capricorn men but Gemini/Saggi are good sports too. So it's all intellectual with the opposite gender & believe me, I'm very 'straight' & involved with men only till now. Probably the Venus-Uranus acting up again.

Thanks so much for all the responses, I'm on cloud #9!

Hi. I meant whoever you project the Sun onto, which could be women too, whether or not they are partners. Any planet can be projected onto a person of either gender. Perhaps for some reason you are unable to admire your Sun in Cancer traits in men, but you are able to admire them in women?

That I guess should ring true