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  #1  
Unread 03-28-2019, 09:29 PM
xriter xriter is offline
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Question Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Hi there,

I am fairly new to astrology, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the 2D image of a birth chart.

At the bottom of this post you can find a little moving 3D animation to illustrate where my confusion comes from. (It's quite a big gif file, so please give it a few seconds to load )

I understand that the equator has been divided in 12 equal parts of 30 degrees, which are projected into space. So, if you are born on the equator it easy to say in which sign a planet is.

Then, I also have read various reasons why the whole house system should be used. One of the reasons being that all houses are of equal importance. Then, based on the place where someone is born, you draw the houses around that place on earth.

Now, I can understand this all, as long as someone is born on the equator. However, if someone is born on another latitude, it all goes wrong in my head. My little 3D visualization also shows this. If you try to combine a 2D view of the 12 signs and a 2D view of the 12 houses, there is no way these two can both consist of 12 equally sized parts in the birth chart.

Again, I am a newbie when it comes to astrology but I really want to understand this. Can someone maybe help me out here? Am I missing something? Thanks a lot in advance...




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Unread 03-29-2019, 04:40 AM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

An awful lot has been written and debated about house systems: much of it pretty technical. I don't have the head for it, unfortunately.

I liked your graphic a lot. Hopefully we can look forward to horoscopes that either look 3-dimensional or that are, like a hologram.
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Unread 05-06-2019, 10:12 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

I suppose you already are aware there are many different house systems available to you? Including if you prefer, the Equal House System.


The unequal ones are quite popular in the tropical system but many prefer equal houses.



This link may help:
https://darkstarastrology.com/house-system-astrology/




I think its just what works for you best.

Last edited by leomoon; 05-06-2019 at 10:16 PM.
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Unread 05-06-2019, 10:34 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by xriter View Post


Hi there,

I am fairly new to astrology, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the 2D image of a birth chart.

At the bottom of this post you can find a little moving 3D animation to illustrate where my confusion comes from. (It's quite a big gif file, so please give it a few seconds to load )

I understand that the equator has been divided in 12 equal parts of 30 degrees, which are projected into space. So, if you are born on the equator it easy to say in which sign a planet is.

Then, I also have read various reasons why the whole house system should be used. One of the reasons being that all houses are of equal importance. Then, based on the place where someone is born, you draw the houses around that place on earth.

Now, I can understand this all, as long as someone is born on the equator. However, if someone is born on another latitude, it all goes wrong in my head. My little 3D visualization also shows this. If you try to combine a 2D view of the 12 signs and a 2D view of the 12 houses, there is no way these two can both consist of 12 equally sized parts in the birth chart.

Again, I am a newbie when it comes to astrology but I really want to understand this. Can someone maybe help me out here? Am I missing something? Thanks a lot in advance...





















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Unread 12-29-2019, 12:32 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

I can't get my head around how most astrologers use projected on to the ecliptic measure for fixed stars, the sky is full of stars, they are not in a line on ecliptic.
It gives wrong readings, how can Polaris ever be rising on Asc???


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Unread 12-29-2019, 01:02 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post

I can't get my head around how most astrologers use projected on to the ecliptic measure
for fixed stars,
the sky is full of stars,
they are not in a line on ecliptic.
It gives wrong readings, how can Polaris ever be rising on Asc???
Quite
many thanks for the graphic clearly illustrating the issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post


Hi Monk
one wonders whether we many benefit from using parans


How To Find Parans
The mathematics of finding parans is a bit complicated
involving extensive spherical trig.
However, some of the major computer services
have added them to their list of options.
The usual format is to give the sidereal time
or the right ascension of the Midheaven
at the time each of the bodies would rise, culminate, set and make the lower culmination
Thus there are four S.T.'s or RAMC's per planet.
If any one of the four S.T.'s or RAMC's of any planet is conjunct
any one of the four S.T.'s or RAMC's of another planet
they are in paran.
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Unread 12-29-2019, 01:34 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Hi Jup,
The astrologer on link debates the two methods.
As an archaeoastronomer i like stars where i can see them, the projected stars only work if the star actually sits on the ecliptic like Regulus, but not many do!
https://astrologeratlarge.com/resour...-nothing-else/
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Unread 12-29-2019, 04:37 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Quote:
From the Ecliptic to the Zodiac
By definition, the Sun always moves along the ecliptic. The Moon and the planets' paths against the stars do not coincide with the ecliptic, but they also do not stray far from it. This is why the ecliptic is convenient for measuring the movement of the planets and defining where in the sky they are situated at any specific moment.
This link is simple, but may help you. BTW, not everyone grasps the fact that Stars and planets do incline us. For example, DJT the current POTUS has Regulus rising, (a Royal star) This, according to what I've researched and wrote a (Regulus & the Generals) Kindle book about, suggests he would indeed, rise very quickly into whichever venue he chose and indeed he did. But as I wrote, according to the ancients he is also promised to "fall"just as quickly if not quicker. The fall (in my personal life with Regulus on my Moon) and on my husband's MC angle, was so swift, we didn't see it coming.



With my Astrology, I never try and convince others of my way. Everyone has their own methods, but some of us study moreso in different areas. For me, it was with the fixed stars & critical degrees.




The study I did and wrote about a few years back, has to do specifically with Generals world wide or the military. I did their charts and found a pattern when they (and most do) had Regulus usually rising, but not always sometimes its affecting a planet. With djt, I believe his Mars is connected to Regulus at birth, for Bill Clinton it was his Sun. From what a quick look/see for President Andrew Johnson (1868) brought about his acquittal and he did not have Regulus in the natal. I haven't studied his chart in any depth at all but there is enough study to know that Regulus natives may suffer a fall after a quick rise.



Sometimes, there is a more literal fall, (some even die), but usually, (not always but usually), the fall is seen by the native as beneath his or her believed destiny to begin with. The idea of natal astrology is to help us help ourselves and not feel victimized once we do understand astrology.

Instead we can help ourselves understand there is a certain fatedness to our lives within a given life.



https://www.astrologjia.com/article/...zodiac-16.html

Last edited by leomoon; 12-29-2019 at 04:41 PM. Reason: added sentence
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  #9  
Unread 12-29-2019, 05:51 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Hi LeoMoon,
Yes i have a Regulus M.C., it is different Strokes for different folks.
Paranatellonta is the oldest form of astrology though, and is accurate with astronomy:-
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10705808
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Unread 12-29-2019, 05:53 PM
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Cool Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Parans is very interesting especialy so when B. Brady introduced her book on them. I bought it. Back then however she announced she didn't use nor believe

that fixed stars should be used as they are in the natal chart. (the ones that can be seen).

However, in recent years I see she's changed her tune and now wrote another book using them.

BTW: Thanks for the link regarding Egypt.

I've been to Dendera a few times in Qena, and overall to Egypt over 10 times, but now I'm too old to travel well. Last trip I ended up asking for a wheelchair, lol.


If any budding astrologer can possibly see their way to travel there, (for me, it's 18 hours, because I have to travel to New York first to et on Egypt Air)
but Europeans can get there far sooner as can Canadians I think.
Anyway, try and go to Dendera in your lifetime. It really is worth it. Perhaps I'll post a photo of the cleanup they did in the thousands of years of soot
its quite a job, but finally its been done in the past few years.

They'll be opening (inshallah) (with the help of God as they say) the NEW Cairo Museum in 2020. I'd love to go back.



But if you go to Dendera to see the rooftop of the temple Zodiac, its probably best to take a cruise at the same time, one which offers that option.

Otherwise, most don't go.


I didn't buy it, so cannot comment on it.





Happy Holidays!

Last edited by leomoon; 12-29-2019 at 06:07 PM.
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Unread 12-29-2019, 06:16 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
Hi LeoMoon,
Yes i have a Regulus M.C., it is different Strokes for different folks.
Paranatellonta is the oldest form of astrology though, and is accurate with astronomy:-
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10705808

Dendera Zodiac rooftop - (doesn't appear in 2011 to have been cleaned yet) It is a replica of the original which was taken to the Louvre. It REALLY belongs to Egypt, and not France, but France was invaded by Napolean I suppose:


The zodiac ceiling was moved in 1821 to Restoration Paris and, by 1822, was installed by Louis XVIII in the Royal Library (later called the National Library of France). In 1922, the zodiac moved from there to the Louvre. The "Dendera Affair"(Wikipedia)




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  #12  
Unread 12-29-2019, 07:23 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Here is what it looks like when they clean the soot, quite an improvement...Hopefully, the Zodiac was done by now, although the government is slowww as molasses.



Photos of Dendera aka Temple of Hathor - 2004 & 2011


img host






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Unread 12-29-2019, 08:08 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

On Wikipedia, you can see the original zodiac at the Louvre where it was installed in the 1800s...whereas, in Dendera, its in the open roof area -Likely they cleaned it up.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendera_zodiac


The zodiac puts Sobek the crocodile god in the center - Why? I don't know



and our photo:


I think its kind of neat and framed a much larger version of it but here, I couldn't post it. See the twins (Gemini) Lepus (the hare constellation of stars) and even Taurus the Bull.

Dendera (Temple of Hathor) and some others were added onto or reconstructed Temples 2,000 years ago durnig the Greek - Roman era.

The Temple of Isis another one, and Medinet Habu in Luxor is quite beautiful and not to be missed still another.

The newer versions were built in some cases, over the existing ruins of original temples.


I think the same might apply to the Crocodile Temple on the River Nile called Kom-Ombo (a quick search on Wikipedia says:

The Temple of Kom Ombo is an unusual double temple in the town of Kom Ombo in Aswan Governorate, Upper Egypt.
It was constructed during the Ptolemaic dynasty, 180–47 BC.


DENDERA TEMPLE PANEL:

https://www.universeguide.com/constellation/lepus
Lepus is the 51st largest in terms of size in the night sky. The constellation name means The Hare. The constellation is one of the original constellations that was devised by the Ancient Greco-Egyptian astronomer Ptolemy who lived between 90 A.D. and 168 A.D.




Last edited by leomoon; 12-29-2019 at 08:10 PM.
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  #14  
Unread 12-31-2019, 01:24 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Hi LeoMoon,
I do have Brady's paran astrology program as well as astronomer programs.
Thank you for your pictures of Egypt and insight regarding Dendera.
Parans are very good at spotting electional astrology.
What alignment would you choose that was Egyptian to get rid of a Pharaoh or King, being what Nasser did to King Farouk on 23 July 1952?
The Parliament did and does sit in Cairo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypti...lution_of_1952


Ancient Egyptian Day Marker below, Sirius the Isis star is rising with the Sun.
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Unread 12-31-2019, 03:23 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by leomoon View Post
This link is simple, but may help you. BTW, not everyone grasps the fact that Stars and planets do incline us. For example, DJT the current POTUS has Regulus rising, (a Royal star) This, according to what I've researched and wrote a (Regulus & the Generals) Kindle book about, suggests he would indeed, rise very quickly into whichever venue he chose and indeed he did. But as I wrote, according to the ancients he is also promised to "fall"just as quickly if not quicker. The fall (in my personal life with Regulus on my Moon) and on my husband's MC angle, was so swift, we didn't see it coming.



With my Astrology, I never try and convince others of my way. Everyone has their own methods, but some of us study moreso in different areas. For me, it was with the fixed stars & critical degrees.




The study I did and wrote about a few years back, has to do specifically with Generals world wide or the military. I did their charts and found a pattern when they (and most do) had Regulus usually rising, but not always sometimes its affecting a planet. With djt, I believe his Mars is connected to Regulus at birth, for Bill Clinton it was his Sun. From what a quick look/see for President Andrew Johnson (1868) brought about his acquittal and he did not have Regulus in the natal. I haven't studied his chart in any depth at all but there is enough study to know that Regulus natives may suffer a fall after a quick rise.



Sometimes, there is a more literal fall, (some even die), but usually, (not always but usually), the fall is seen by the native as beneath his or her believed destiny to begin with. The idea of natal astrology is to help us help ourselves and not feel victimized once we do understand astrology.

Instead we can help ourselves understand there is a certain fatedness to our lives within a given life.



https://www.astrologjia.com/article/...zodiac-16.html
Hi LeoMoon,

I did not know of your interest in this, cool. I am very interested in this, thank you. I will read and enjoy. Opal
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Unread 12-31-2019, 05:25 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Hi Opal: Don't you have a bday coming up soon, I do. We've traveled to Egypt often, perhaps 10 times since 2004. My favorite of all of them was in 2010-2011. (because of the overturn of Mubarak) The

The citizens were so excited and happy, I just knew we had to go back there and congratulate them. Of course as we know now, it was a short-lived happy due to the military take-over of Sisi hiding in the wings.



As I recall, my husband's birthday was October 8th,2010 so we went to Egypt then, and a side trip to Israel, much like side trips we took in the 2008-2010 period to Israel and the following year to Jordan (my favorite) ...It took that kind of persuasion. He adores Egypt, but no so Israel, but I always wanted to see for myself. Then returned in March of 2011 and took the side trip (with a group tour to Alexandria. I tried back then to always take some type of short 5 day side tour which they offer. Afterall, the main distance to Egypt, makes it a short jaunt elsewhere. The only regret I have now is that a main trip to Turkey we didn't opt for the side trip to Palmyra Syria close by. Now, its too late and forever gone, one of the saddest memories of the ancient years:
https://www.boredpanda.com/before-af...mpaign=organic




Anyway, its strange how we started to go to Egypt as an escape from our pain both emotional and mental pain over our youngest daughter's mental issues. I suppose God has a strange way of working within people, but I recall in 2004 saying "we must get away, how about Egypt?" Thats about as far away as a person could travel from Phoenix Az. To New York, then to Egypt as the planes leave from there. There use to be a take off from L.A. but they stopped them years before.


I know this is too much info but I'm reminiscing this time.
To go a first time, is a shock to the nervous system, as much as going over the border to Mexico was the 1st time from Az. But after the initial culture shock wears off, its a breeze causing some to return over and over due to the tremendous amounts of archeological intact sites like no other place except for Turkey (imo) the culture, and the friendly Egyptians.





MONK:
Thanks for the kind words. I wish I had a time of day for Farouk's sailing down the Nile, (as the Egyptians like to recall) - but I don't so I used a hypothetical 1 A.M. because he had to have known the night before the jig was up and he'd be leaving.



It turns out on July 23rd, 1952 there was Mars square Venus and the Moon at that time.



from Wiki:
Quote:
President Nasser announced a new Constitution on 16 January at a popular rally, setting up a presidential system of government in which the president has the power to appoint and dismiss ministers. An elections law was passed on 3 March granting women the right to vote for the first time in Egyptian history. Nasser was elected as the second president of the Republic on 23 June. In 1957, Nasser announced the formation of the National Union (Al-Ittihad Al-Qawmi), paving the way to July elections for the National Assembly, the first parliament since 1952.
Commemoration

The anniversary of the coup d'état is commemorated on Revolution Day, an annual public holiday in Egypt, on 23 July.



Since I don't have the expertise of the ancient astrologers who could figure out the PARANS without a computer (how did they do this??)
I can only look at the stars hidden via the internet that day.


What I can offer however, is a few glimpses of how those insanely rich human beings (much like DJt today?) lived amongst the poor Egyptian citizens. Palaces everywhere, many still intact and used converted into hotels. Here is one we stayed a few times, (my favorite area) in Zamalek, an island near Cairo and off the July 26th bridge, (a Commemoration that is huge each year in Egypt as its the 7 Day War with Israel) and Egyptians honor their military here.

(Its terribly sad that the Military turned on them after the Revolution of 2011, awful memory of that) .....They truly believed in their military saving them. The minority Coptics however approve of the Generals running the country.

Morsi's fate was sealed when he disbanded the Parliament. You need a Parliament that does the head honchos in charge bidding I suppose, much like we have here OR fix it so it's so.


Here are a few photos of the Marriott in Zamalek, which was a fabulous mansion built for 1 reason only. To honor a State Visit of a Queen from France , a Royalty visit. He wanted to impress her from what I recall vaguely. In this case, 1862 and owned by this guy - Farouk also had palaces everywhere, some museums some now commercial establishments.

(*some tour companies still use this place for Cairo visits) but I checked booking.com and its about $118.00 per night. Not bad for 10 star Luxury, lol.



History of the Palace
Khedive Ismail built the historic Palace Al Gezirah in Cairo, Egypt in 1869 to serve as a guest palace during the Suez Canal inauguration celebrations. in the years since, it has housed European monarchs, including Empress Eugenie, wife of Napoleon III. It was to be the venue of the first performance of Verdi's Opera Aida.


Some photos of the Marriott zamalek district:
*think Mar Lago without a golf course*

Within walking distance of this palace is another which was Farouk's or one of his chlidrens. It is now called the Egyptian Ceramic Museum and is definately worth the walk over to see fantastic ceramics of various eras.







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Unread 12-31-2019, 05:29 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Jupiter (the King) looks to be in trouble here with so many squares and it's opposition to Mars (leave or else!)


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Unread 12-31-2019, 05:44 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

I checked the Parans on astrodienst (see below) - and found the following, but Brady's program gives you what each star prognosticates according to her:



* I rec'd my own sample of the Parans for the natal and know it is truly insightful! Lets just say I was impressed.
(looks like they still offer the samples)

http://www.zyntara.com/free_paran_page.html



(Click Image for Parans for Farouk 1952 June 23rd at 1A.M. Cairo time )





Last edited by leomoon; 12-31-2019 at 06:13 PM.
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Unread 12-31-2019, 05:53 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

To the OP, if you are still wondering, this vid does a good job explaining: https://youtu.be/Q_2YMRM5R3k

I would indeev like to see 3d charts
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Unread 12-31-2019, 05:55 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Farouk's Palace in Alexandria has a Lighthouse nearby....(doesn't everyone?)

About
This sprawling property was the summer home of controversial King Farouk who assumed power at the age of 16 in 1936.


https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti...vernorate.html


Built on the site of the original Lighthouse of Alexandria :


https://www.viator.com/Alexandria-at...s/d4376-a21583


MONK: What would Moon and Procyon suggest? The "preceding"dog star?
I can see what Constellation of Words indicates here (about Water)
It is noteworthy that the ideas of water and drowning seem to be universally associated with this constellation
He (King Farouk) was very lucky, he and his family were allowed to leave on the next boat, otherwise, he might have been killed?

(Moon is water ruled):
Linked with positive stellar bodies, success is made greater, but the native, in order to avoid a fiasco, has always to take care not to be imprudent.


Especially dangerous is Procyon configured with Mars and Pluto (Ebertin) IF rising, "military preferment) is possible.


Procyon is a very fortunate star; known to the Mesopotamians as 'The Star of the Crossing of the Water - ***BINGO!!


I see Mars setting - Al-Rescha should tell us something
Mirfak & Mercury - i.e. "getting the hell out of Dodge?"


Mirfak in Perseus: The constellation is indicative of events effecting large numbers of people, especially those events caused by major meteorological phenomena.

Last edited by leomoon; 12-31-2019 at 06:25 PM. Reason: bold stars
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Unread 12-31-2019, 06:50 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Hi LeoMoon,
Great Stuff, the Egyptians still follow the philosophy of ancient Egyptians the date of 11th September is New Year in the Coptic Calendar which is the last remnant of of the Egyptian Calendar called Thoth or Thout.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thout
Which is why the Constitution they had before the recent revolution was dated 11th September 1971.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypti...tution_of_1971
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Unread 12-31-2019, 07:11 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Hi Leomoon!

Let me know pm when your birthday is, mine has past, I am Libra Sun. I am working, I will be back soon sweet!

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Unread 12-31-2019, 07:14 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

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Unread 12-31-2019, 08:36 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

I've been wrapped up today, trying to find out the tod that Farouk hightailed it out of Egypt. I found a photo of the King's ship going down the Mediterranean leaving Egypt - from Alexandria. He certainly made a wise choice to do so. * See Link below:
I thought I saw on Wiki, he was told to be out of Egypt by 6PM, but I'm still wondering to have the correct stars and Moon's position:




Fateful drive

Quote:
Farouk, who, on the 25th, had been staying at Montaza Palace while the coup had been brewing, decided that it had “become the perfect air target” for Free Officer-controlled bombers.
Instead, he quickly chose to take refuge in Ras el–Tin Palace in the heart of Alexandria, where “my people would see the Royal Flag of Egypt at my palace mast.”
After all, as Farouk said, he did not want rumors to abound that he had committed suicide.
Quote:
With the family in agreement to stay together, they turned to the urgent task at hand – packing their belongings. As they had left most of their clothes at Montaza Palace, they were only able to bring around a suitcase each of personal belongings.
After receiving QueenNarriman’s beloved mother,(plus)Caffrey and his personal assistant, and Maher, the premier, Farouk and his family, along with (baby) Fuad’s nurse, made their way to the quayside to depart on the Mahroussa.



Here is the summer Palace shown on the link background of him leaving:

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/pers...rom-power.html

Alexandria Montaza Palace in 2011 March (behind gates - occupied by Mililtary






Last edited by leomoon; 12-31-2019 at 08:39 PM.
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Unread 12-31-2019, 08:52 PM
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Re: Can't wrap my head around a 2D birth chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by xriter View Post
Hi there,

I am fairly new to astrology, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the 2D image of a birth chart.

At the bottom of this post you can find a little moving 3D animation to illustrate where my confusion comes from. (It's quite a big gif file, so please give it a few seconds to load )

I understand that the equator has been divided in 12 equal parts of 30 degrees, which are projected into space. So, if you are born on the equator it easy to say in which sign a planet is.

Then, I also have read various reasons why the whole house system should be used. One of the reasons being that all houses are of equal importance. Then, based on the place where someone is born, you draw the houses around that place on earth.

Now, I can understand this all, as long as someone is born on the equator. However, if someone is born on another latitude, it all goes wrong in my head. My little 3D visualization also shows this. If you try to combine a 2D view of the 12 signs and a 2D view of the 12 houses, there is no way these two can both consist of 12 equally sized parts in the birth chart.

Again, I am a newbie when it comes to astrology but I really want to understand this. Can someone maybe help me out here? Am I missing something? Thanks a lot in advance...




xriter:



I'm afraid I get a little ? carried away with Egypt, so I wondered if you got anything out of the Parans. From Monk's Link they are explained better:
Quote:

The term "paranatellonta" is well-known in greek astrological literature. It designates stars either rising together with the sun or being in other conspicuous positions to it. Tentatively, a forerunner of this conception is identified in an egyptian depiction attested several times from the 13th century BC onwards. There, "gods" are depicted who are defined by their positions in regard to the sun-god. It seems possible to connect their positions with the typical meanings of the word paranatellonta. Some reflections on the contribution of Egypt to hellenistic astrology are added, including some references to the largely unpublished corpus of demotic egyptian astrological texts.
Here is another take on them:


http://ambientastrology.com/articles...esurfaced.html
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