EJ53
Banned
I get that, V......but the child/parent1/parent 2 relationship puzzles me.
Are you able to clarify the latter for me with an example?
EJ
Anything happened to you when Pluto=Asc/Mh ?
- Thread starter Tora
- Start date
I get that, V......but the child/parent1/parent 2 relationship puzzles me.
Are you able to clarify the latter for me with an example?
EJ
Vinyasa
Well-known member
I get that, V......but the child/parent1/parent 2 relationship puzzles me.
Are you able to clarify the latter for me with an example?
EJ
I found also the family metaphor rather confusing, because it creates family nodes and subordinating connotations, ie. there are two "parents" who create a "child", and this I do not think it is our case.... So I changed the context - just for my understanding - in mathematical terms, resulting into an equation with three variables, let's say x, y, z, to get:
x=y/z
I have the feeling that Lila simply wants to say that
x ≠ y ≠ z
and that you cannot have an equation where
x=x/y
because this is then void, even when eg.
x²=x/y, whereas x² (= x transiting)
or x³=x/y, whereas x³ (= x derivative, such as SA).
The only case actually where you can see
x=x/y,
is in synastry.
In which case you can see also
x/y=x/y.
Turning back to astrological terms now:
your example Venus=Jupiter/Asc
whereas "=" can be any of square/opposition/conjunction, makes perfect sense (though I don't know which
) While the example of Cassandra
Sun=Sun/Moon
is void, because a transiting or progressed/solar arced planet cannot trigger a calculated point to which he contributes from natal placement.
Meanwhile, this is perfectly ok
Moon=Sun/Moon
for my Moon at 26° Leo squaring someone's Sun/Moon at 23°Scorpio...
Whereas - theoretically - I should see some "fireworks" - to paraphrase Cassandra
- with Sun/Moon=Sun/Moon
provided that the second person would have Sun/Moon at 29° Gemini (like me) or else Virgo/Pisces/Sagi...
This is how i have understood this statement, however it could be that I have misinterpreted or skipped something.
EJ53
Banned
I get your very clear mathematical explanation of the need to avoid "double-counting" the influence of planets contained in the natal mid-point picture......but, I do think Lila is also saying something else with her reference to child/parent1/parent2.
However, she doesn't explain it on her website and hasn't come back with an explanation here......so maybe it's copyrighted by Noel Tyl, whom she appears to have studied with.
EJ
Vinyasa
Well-known member
Then hopefully she will come back, because I have been reading the statement again and again and can't figure out what else I am missing...
From my side, turning to the original question, Pluto=Asc/MC, I have Asc/MC at 17° Cancer and Sun/Moon at 29° Gemini.
With Pluto=Sun/Moon "I saw fireworks" of all colours and shapes, included job, career, income, philosophy, lifestyle, friends, health, relationships. I can't attribute the full reconstruction to Pluto, some structures were necessarily dissolved due to Saturn transiting 12+1H, however I had throughout 2,5 years a very intense feeling of endings, the moment something was happening I knew it was "THE END"... Most probably the fact that I have the critical degree of 29° Gemini has added to the flavour. Overall now I start to enjoy the idea of how we are given the possibility to raise from our ashes, to start a new life: it is actually like a rebirth, you have to reinvent structures and people and places and follow a new path, find a new philosophy to embrace the truth. For Pluto=Asc/MC I have to wait until 2016, I think...
Lila
Well-known member
Hello,
I’ ve been very busy. Basically what I wanted to state concerning the child= father/mother expressions certainty was trying to demonstrate it in pure mathematical terms.
We have distinctly three points or planets. (There is no metaphorical expression, just keep everything simple and organized. Astrology could be uncomplicated when it is well applied.
If you had read carefully my previous posts you would be able to understand this. I always said it was an equation. An equation is composed by different variables working at a mutual goal.
Here it goes what is said previously just in case you did not notice it:
“ Finally, keywords to the focal point it is “ what can be accomplished “ and for the combination of the two planets or angles “ how it can be accomplished “….
Therefore when I was referring to child-father-mother I was describing you that all the elements were different. They are connected by transiting or SA activities and they provide us much more detailed information/message over a Horoscope on a specific topic.
With regard to your example of Venus = Jupiter/Asc I’ll present shortly how to manage it:
a) Venus, in astrological terms is traditionally concerned with romances, art appreciation, the social, the aesthetics etc, etc.
b) Jupiter/ Asc, normally it is identified with trusting and/ or showing off personal abilities and talents/ with the seeking of exposure to build confidence and so on.
The house rulerships they maintain in the Horoscope will define the scenes of actions the individual need to perform in order to get what is defined in the focal point (always in perfect consonance with the other astrological measurements).
At first I highly recommend you to locate in your chart your Sun/Moon midpoint and the horoscope’s house where it is situated. The second step is to recall significant events that occurred at your personal life (romantic/familiar etc). The third step is to check out the Sun/Moon.
You will note that through transits as well as through SA motions that midpoint is certainty active.
Finally ascertain the house the planets rule or co-rule in the chart.
I'll post on my website more detailed information.
Lila Viana
EJ53
Banned
Ok......That confirms Vinyasa's understanding of what you said.......and I understood that too.
I read your posts mindfully several times......but remained confused by the following comment :-
"Child=child/mother(???) Child=child/father(???) child/mother or child/father would suffice....There are several telling natal midpoint pictures that reinforce the major measurements presented in the chart."
And to be honest, this still confuses me.....But I think it means that the child/mother and child/father are further midpoints that can be used to interpret the main midpoint picture......(perhaps as the transitting Child moves over them).
Yes......X = Y/Z, where X = "what can be accomplished" and Y/Z = "how it can be accomplished"
Thank you.....although I had noticed and understood this already.
Hopefully, I understand how to use the technique now Lila......Thank you for being patient with me, as I really am interested in learning about it.
EJ
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Vinyasa
Well-known member
Me too, but I think we can proceed the discussion the same....
so i would like now to ask the following, in order to better understand the dynamic of the midpoint pictures:
in a midpoint y/z, the calculation in order to arrive to the exact astrological point is (y+z)/2 [eg. from my chart, sun/moon = Gem29°, resulting from (Leo 26° + Taurus 3°) / 2], so it is a pure mathematical exercise in which both y and z contribute the same.
but do actually y and z contribute the same in an astrological midpoint picture? and aren't these y and z triggered differently in base of the innate relationship each one of them had already to the x aspecting now the midpoint?? am i too complicated? i think so...
so, back to the concrete example:
my midpoint sun/moon is at Gemini 29°... thinking in Ebertin's dualities, it does represent spirit + soul, vitality + feeling etc. So this midpoint is triggered by an opposition from pluto at 29° Sagi... is it enough to say that both vitality and feeling will be dead and reborn in a way, or should i think that natally, pluto semisextiles moon and inconjuncts sun, so the adjustments will be asked by the sun regime and the minor opportunities/release of tension will come from what moon represents for me?
second example: now the same midpoint receives a square from saturn at 29° Virgo... should i expect now the minor opportunities/release of tension from the sun area (due to the natal semisextile between sun-saturn)? or else, shouldn't i focus on the innate discipline against challenges and through challenging times resulting from this natal semisextile, in order to release the current tension to the midpoint picture? (saturn is natally squaring moon with a very wide orb, so actually i do not see release of tension there)
so, isn't the solution to Tora's Pluto=Asc/MC the study of the natal aspects Pluto to Asc and Pluto to MC separately?
in other words, isn't the natal aspect between x and y (or x and z) as stand-alones, the key to understand and overcome constructively the tension created by a midpoint picture (because as we said, a midpoint picture will always be based on hard aspects...)
oh, i do hope this post makes sense to someone...
EJ53
Banned
Trying to keep-up V, but not sure if I've got it yet.
Are you saying that the three planets in the Midpoint picture ought to be "weighted" in the interpretation to reflect the natal relationships between them?......
Thus, Tora's Pluto=Asc/MC has a different interpretation when (say) Pluto squares both points natally to that when it natally opposes one but squares the other.
So "What can be accomplished" = X, but "How it can be accomplished" = N(X/Y)......
where N is the combined/synthesised interpretation of the natal relationship of X to Y and Z.
Or, am I well off-target here?
gemini59
Well-known member
So again if I have jupiter transiiting midpoint to MC/AC but jupiter does not make an aspect to either AC or MC it will not have an effect? as there is not the 'relationship'? Those points would only be sensitive to planets that it has connections to . So my sun moon midpoint would be highly sensitive to all planets they are already in aspect too. Seems hmmmm clannish.
iwonder
Well-known member
I would recommend book Midpoints by Don McBroom. It is a not a big book, but it is amazingly thorough, to the point, backed up with hundreds of examples (my hat off to the research done!) and offers practical advice. My Virgo Sun could not ask for a better textbook
Back to the topic, I did have Pluto going back and forth over my MC/Asc point about 12 years ago. Pluto rules my MC. That year, we bought our first house (goes in line with MC/IC), I got my first traffic ticket for cutting in front of a police car (stupid, but it was a daring power thing, I guess), I had two accidents (one fender-bender; in the other I completely trashed the car, but I myself was not even scratched).
Looking back, I think the important life changing event was meeting The Computer and going online. Really, my life has not been the same ever since, it directly changed (or influenced) my career and life outlook and the way I project myself to the world. I didn't realize it until now. Of course, in late 90s many people began using computers, but I guess in my case it was living out a collective influence (Pluto) on a personal level. I think it goes in line with creative change (Pluto) in the way I blend my life approach (Asc) and my public image (MC).
If not that, then what?
In three years, I will have solar arc Uranus conjunct Asc/MC, and at the same time solar arc Pluto conjunct MC. I bet it will be a time of a major change.
Back to the topic, I did have Pluto going back and forth over my MC/Asc point about 12 years ago. Pluto rules my MC. That year, we bought our first house (goes in line with MC/IC), I got my first traffic ticket for cutting in front of a police car (stupid, but it was a daring power thing, I guess), I had two accidents (one fender-bender; in the other I completely trashed the car, but I myself was not even scratched).
Looking back, I think the important life changing event was meeting The Computer and going online. Really, my life has not been the same ever since, it directly changed (or influenced) my career and life outlook and the way I project myself to the world. I didn't realize it until now. Of course, in late 90s many people began using computers, but I guess in my case it was living out a collective influence (Pluto) on a personal level. I think it goes in line with creative change (Pluto) in the way I blend my life approach (Asc) and my public image (MC).
If not that, then what?
In three years, I will have solar arc Uranus conjunct Asc/MC, and at the same time solar arc Pluto conjunct MC. I bet it will be a time of a major change.
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EJ53
Banned
On the other hand, the natal sign/house position of Jupiter dictates it's overall purpose in your chart......So, surely it must figure in the midpoint picture interpretation somehow?
For example, my natal Jupiter on IC in Capricorn/4th makes me a "pillar of the community who always strives to do the right thing"......(or, if negative, to create the appearance of doing so)......So when Jupiter transits (say) my Leo/11th, I may try to "personally influence a group" to do the right thing......Or, as it passes through Taurus in my 8th house I might believe "the values of others" are not right/ in the best interests of the community......But, the motivation will always be to do the right thing (or appear to).
Thus, our equation X=N(Y/Z) now becomes NX=N(Y/Z)......Lila's equation adjusted on both sides to incorporate the "signature" of the natal chart.
I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the real value of Midpoints/Midpoint pictures is to identify the three planets/points that are being activated, and the overall nature of the activation (conjunction, square or opposition to Midpoint).
After that, the actual transit+natal signs, houses and (harmonic) aspects of the planets/points involved might be easier to interpret.
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Lila
Well-known member
Hi,
In a few words I try to answer to all your pertinent questions. Thank you for the interest in this matter.
A midpoint is precisely the point exactly midway between any two planets/points ( I inserted an article concerning this on my website). Definitively they could show a connection that at a glance it is not possible. A third planet at that midpoint of the two planets will act as a factor that brings these energies together and through which they will tend to be expressed. This contact can come via a conjunction-opposition-square to it or through a semi-square or sesquiquadrature aspect to that point.
A transit or SA by any of these aspects to this midpoint picture can also act during the course of life as a trigger to release the latent energy of the pair. Outer planet combinations represent larger areas because of the fact they constitute collective energies. Personal contacts symbolize individual expression.
With regard the given examples I must say you that your final statement is partly correct. I quote it in order not to be misunderstood:
“ in other words, isn't the natal aspect between x and y (or x and z) as stand-alones, the key to understand and overcome constructively the tension created by a midpoint picture (because as we said, a midpoint picture will always be based on hard aspects...)”.
Only the hard aspects make things happen in our life. Overall, a midpoint picture cannot be considered alone by itself. It has to be evaluated with the other measurements, linking it always with the whole chart.
At the first example ( opposition from Pluto) it is not enough as you have to verify if the transit or SA is coinciding with the rest of planetary activities especially motions to angles etc ( please read my article). If it is affirmative you may consider as you did otherwise is wrong, sorry.
Two notes:
Pluto currently has to do with the empowerment of personal perspectives; The Sun/Moon midpoint could be compared like two partners in a relationship. It may be comparable with the left and right hemispheres of the brain. They have the potential to interact and come together. This interface, the left-hand side masculine-logical, verbal, intellectual faculties, and the feminine- emotional, musical, intuitive faculties operate together resulting in of a perfect marriage, so to speak.
This potential for “inner marriage” is present in all of us but it would seem to be particularly active in those whose Sun/Moon midpoint is occupied by a third chart factor or factors as they act as catalysts or focal points for this inner process of inner fusion. When this happen the full life will tend to become concentrated/focused with the qualities of this third factor or factors. Otherwise when an unoccupied Sun/Moon is triggered by transit or SA, such periods can produce a temporary experience depending of its nature.
Regards,
Lila Viana
In a few words I try to answer to all your pertinent questions. Thank you for the interest in this matter.
A midpoint is precisely the point exactly midway between any two planets/points ( I inserted an article concerning this on my website). Definitively they could show a connection that at a glance it is not possible. A third planet at that midpoint of the two planets will act as a factor that brings these energies together and through which they will tend to be expressed. This contact can come via a conjunction-opposition-square to it or through a semi-square or sesquiquadrature aspect to that point.
A transit or SA by any of these aspects to this midpoint picture can also act during the course of life as a trigger to release the latent energy of the pair. Outer planet combinations represent larger areas because of the fact they constitute collective energies. Personal contacts symbolize individual expression.
With regard the given examples I must say you that your final statement is partly correct. I quote it in order not to be misunderstood:
“ in other words, isn't the natal aspect between x and y (or x and z) as stand-alones, the key to understand and overcome constructively the tension created by a midpoint picture (because as we said, a midpoint picture will always be based on hard aspects...)”.
Only the hard aspects make things happen in our life. Overall, a midpoint picture cannot be considered alone by itself. It has to be evaluated with the other measurements, linking it always with the whole chart.
At the first example ( opposition from Pluto) it is not enough as you have to verify if the transit or SA is coinciding with the rest of planetary activities especially motions to angles etc ( please read my article). If it is affirmative you may consider as you did otherwise is wrong, sorry.
Two notes:
Pluto currently has to do with the empowerment of personal perspectives; The Sun/Moon midpoint could be compared like two partners in a relationship. It may be comparable with the left and right hemispheres of the brain. They have the potential to interact and come together. This interface, the left-hand side masculine-logical, verbal, intellectual faculties, and the feminine- emotional, musical, intuitive faculties operate together resulting in of a perfect marriage, so to speak.
This potential for “inner marriage” is present in all of us but it would seem to be particularly active in those whose Sun/Moon midpoint is occupied by a third chart factor or factors as they act as catalysts or focal points for this inner process of inner fusion. When this happen the full life will tend to become concentrated/focused with the qualities of this third factor or factors. Otherwise when an unoccupied Sun/Moon is triggered by transit or SA, such periods can produce a temporary experience depending of its nature.
Regards,
Lila Viana
starlink
Well-known member
Lila, thank you for all the effort put into helping us understand this principle better.You gave a very good example of the Sun-Moon midpoint. To me this is actually the most important midpoint in the chart when looking at character because it is between the two lights.
Asc//Midpoint of course is between two point and I have Neptune exactly conjunct that point. So Neptunes energies therefore will play a very important role in how I (Asc.) may realize my future (MC). So, being an astrologer and an intuitive person is therefore quite apparent here. Midpoint is 8°16' Libra. Neptune 8°32'.
I understood this already, but not yet the other thing of the focal point. I think I understand your example of father-child-mother but I am still puzzled about the focal point.
This I can also, like Gemini, not quite believe:
I just cannot imagine that a transit will only be felt (over the midpoint of any two planets) when the same planet already makes a difficult aspect to this midpoint in the natal chart.
Now I have that Neptune there, so when transiting Neptune makes an aspect to this point, you say, it will be felt, but if I had nothing there, nor any other planet aspecting that midpoint, that transit of Neptune wont be noticed.
Did I understand you well? I will go through your article as I am intrigued like all the others
Another question for me would be: what about the midpoint between a point, like MC and a planet?
I could follow Vinyasa by the way
I would say here that this transformative influence or push to transformation shown by Pluto would certainly work when Sun and Moon are in some sort of difficult aspect with one another. Deep insight and changing certain character traits could very well be helped through having Pluto transiting over that midpoint then. And yes, it could in fact also trigger the already existing difficult aspects between Pluto and Moon and Pluto and Sun. I always feel that everything is interwoven and you just cannot separate things.
Must run now.
Goodnight! Starlink
Asc//Midpoint of course is between two point and I have Neptune exactly conjunct that point. So Neptunes energies therefore will play a very important role in how I (Asc.) may realize my future (MC). So, being an astrologer and an intuitive person is therefore quite apparent here. Midpoint is 8°16' Libra. Neptune 8°32'.
I understood this already, but not yet the other thing of the focal point. I think I understand your example of father-child-mother but I am still puzzled about the focal point.
This I can also, like Gemini, not quite believe:
So again if I have jupiter transiiting midpoint to MC/AC but jupiter does not make an aspect to either AC or MC it will not have an effect? as there is not the 'relationship'? Those points would only be sensitive to planets that it has connections to . So my sun moon midpoint would be highly sensitive to all planets they are already in aspect too. Seems hmmmm clannish.
I just cannot imagine that a transit will only be felt (over the midpoint of any two planets) when the same planet already makes a difficult aspect to this midpoint in the natal chart.
Now I have that Neptune there, so when transiting Neptune makes an aspect to this point, you say, it will be felt, but if I had nothing there, nor any other planet aspecting that midpoint, that transit of Neptune wont be noticed.
Did I understand you well? I will go through your article as I am intrigued like all the others
Another question for me would be: what about the midpoint between a point, like MC and a planet?
I could follow Vinyasa by the way
I would say here that this transformative influence or push to transformation shown by Pluto would certainly work when Sun and Moon are in some sort of difficult aspect with one another. Deep insight and changing certain character traits could very well be helped through having Pluto transiting over that midpoint then. And yes, it could in fact also trigger the already existing difficult aspects between Pluto and Moon and Pluto and Sun. I always feel that everything is interwoven and you just cannot separate things.
Must run now.
Goodnight! Starlink
Vinyasa
Well-known member
[Phew! 2 days not entered the forum and I find here enough material for one week's thought!!]
I must admit I have not read the book recommended by iwonder but I inserted it into my reading list... So, it could very well be that I do not say something that has not already been said. But since I am facing a lot of activity with my Midpoint Sun/Moon at 29°Gemini (first the opposition from Pluto, now the square from Saturn, next to come the T-square with Saturn and Uranus) I just felt that I am not covered by the general interpretations provided for predictive reasons. A midpoint is a fictional, calculated, arithmetic point. It is an extremely personal point. It is a point of balance between two forces, or, as Lila very nice put it, an "interface".
Physics was my worst subject at school, however I know force is a vector: is has both magnitude and direction. The force applied to a midpoint by an external third force, equals to the force applied to the midpoint + the force applied to the two original points, each separately. In other words, Pluto opposing Sun/Moon is both a hard experience and an opportunity to rebirth; however, by studying the opposition to the midpoint filtered through the individual relation of the external force to each, it should be possible "to go under the skin" of the midpoint picture and understand its dynamic. Because my idea is that the innate connection between X and Y (or X and Z) can give to the owner of the chart clues about how to use this powerful midpoint picture. X and Y (or X and Z) are from birth in a dialectic relationship:
[Dialectics is based around three (or four) basic metaphysical concepts:
They co-exist and the co-develop. Therefore, this means that actually they interact: the communication between the planets in a natal chart is not one-way: the collective and the individual are involved in a permanent conversation which can be anything from creative to competitive. And for cases like Cassandra's, who does not see a relation between Jupiter and MC/AC natally and correctly wonders about the usefulness of such perspective, I would look even for minor aspects, even a 5th or 9th harmonic, or the relation of Jupiter to the rulers of Asc/MC, because I think there someone may find some clues about how to work more harmoniously or constructively with the hard aspect. Attention again: I do not say that a lack of major aspect between X/Y or X/Z renders the midpoint picture less sensible: my quest refers to the discovery of clues of how to better work with the hard aspect; i.e. I do not negate it, I search for the solution to that equation.
All this, however, applies - in my mind - to a Y/Z when both Y and Z are planets. Because if we are talking about Asc/MC, these are points which do not apply force, they only reflect force. They are much more passive. So there is no dialectic between Y-Z and X in this case. It is one-way communication. And so the study goes to the pure force applied natally by X to Y or Z. Discovering however for example that Jupiter natally quintiles Asc, could give a clue to the individual that maybe the hard aspect from Jupiter to Asc/MC is the correct moment to check with exhibitionistic behaviour, or an eventual 8th harmonic from Jupiter to MC could point to a moment of necessary reflecting on possible too much of optimism or risk taking.
Are you saying that the three planets in the Midpoint picture ought to be "weighted" in the interpretation to reflect the natal relationships between them?......
Thus, Tora's Pluto=Asc/MC has a different interpretation when (say) Pluto squares both points natally to that when it natally opposes one but squares the other.
So "What can be accomplished" = X, but "How it can be accomplished" = N(X/Y)......
where N is the combined/synthesised interpretation of the natal relationship of X to Y and Z.
Or, am I well off-target here?
Exactly!
I must admit I have not read the book recommended by iwonder but I inserted it into my reading list... So, it could very well be that I do not say something that has not already been said. But since I am facing a lot of activity with my Midpoint Sun/Moon at 29°Gemini (first the opposition from Pluto, now the square from Saturn, next to come the T-square with Saturn and Uranus) I just felt that I am not covered by the general interpretations provided for predictive reasons. A midpoint is a fictional, calculated, arithmetic point. It is an extremely personal point. It is a point of balance between two forces, or, as Lila very nice put it, an "interface".
Physics was my worst subject at school
, however I know force is a vector: is has both magnitude and direction. The force applied to a midpoint by an external third force, equals to the force applied to the midpoint + the force applied to the two original points, each separately. In other words, Pluto opposing Sun/Moon is both a hard experience and an opportunity to rebirth; however, by studying the opposition to the midpoint filtered through the individual relation of the external force to each, it should be possible "to go under the skin" of the midpoint picture and understand its dynamic. Because my idea is that the innate connection between X and Y (or X and Z) can give to the owner of the chart clues about how to use this powerful midpoint picture. X and Y (or X and Z) are from birth in a dialectic relationship: [Dialectics is based around three (or four) basic metaphysical concepts:
- Everything is transient and finite, existing in the medium of time (this idea is not accepted by some dialecticians).
- Everything is made out of opposing forces/opposing sides (contradictions).
- Gradual changes lead to turning points, where one force overcomes the other (quantitative change leads to qualitative change).
- Change moves in spirals (or helixes), not circles. (Sometimes referred to as "negation of the negation")
They co-exist and the co-develop. Therefore, this means that actually they interact: the communication between the planets in a natal chart is not one-way: the collective and the individual are involved in a permanent conversation which can be anything from creative to competitive. And for cases like Cassandra's, who does not see a relation between Jupiter and MC/AC natally and correctly wonders about the usefulness of such perspective, I would look even for minor aspects, even a 5th or 9th harmonic, or the relation of Jupiter to the rulers of Asc/MC, because I think there someone may find some clues about how to work more harmoniously or constructively with the hard aspect. Attention again: I do not say that a lack of major aspect between X/Y or X/Z renders the midpoint picture less sensible: my quest refers to the discovery of clues of how to better work with the hard aspect; i.e. I do not negate it, I search for the solution to that equation.
All this, however, applies - in my mind - to a Y/Z when both Y and Z are planets. Because if we are talking about Asc/MC, these are points which do not apply force, they only reflect force. They are much more passive. So there is no dialectic between Y-Z and X in this case. It is one-way communication. And so the study goes to the pure force applied natally by X to Y or Z. Discovering however for example that Jupiter natally quintiles Asc, could give a clue to the individual that maybe the hard aspect from Jupiter to Asc/MC is the correct moment to check with exhibitionistic behaviour, or an eventual 8th harmonic from Jupiter to MC could point to a moment of necessary reflecting on possible too much of optimism or risk taking.
Starlink, I think I would see it as a balancing point between a passive (or at max. reflecting) personal point and a planet (= an interactive possibility in the chart). It is actually EJ's case Venus=Jupiter/Asc. But to be honest I would not go after all midpoints in a chart, I actually look only at Sun/Moon, Asc/MC and co-rulers of the chart (if applicable).
EJ53
Banned
I'm finding the detail of this discussion on Midpoint pictures very useful/worthwhile, but "intellectually challenging"......So (to help keep me focused), can someone please confirm that the following summary of "where we are now at" is correct :-
1. Midpoint pictures facilitate a detailed interpretation of events indicated by transits (and progressions).
2. A midpoint picture consists of the natal midpoint of two planets/points (or one of each) and a natal/progressed/transitting planet (or point) making a hard aspect to it.......The latter is the "focal point" and has an allowable orb of 2.5 degrees.
3. Planets or points involved in the natal midpoint/focal point cannot be a progressed/transitting focal point.
3. Hard aspects are defined as conjunctions; semi-squares; squares; sesquiquadrates (135 degrees) and oppositions.......which can be identified using a 45 degree midpoint dial......(But a 90 degree midpoint dial clearly identifies hard aspects in signs of the same quality......Cardinal, Fixed or Mutable)
4. The focal point indicates "what can be accomplished" and the midpoint defines "how it can be accomplished"......which we can express as the equation X = Y/Z, where X is the focal point and Y/Z is the midpoint.
5. However, a complete interpretation of the Midpoint Picture must incorporate the natal meaning/purpose/"signature" of the three planets/points......So our equation becomes NX = N(Y/Z), where N represents the natal signature/interpretation.
6. Since planets radiate energy but points do not, there is a two-way interaction/influence between the planets in a midpoint picture but not between a planet and a point......and there is a permanent (dialetic) dialogue between the progressed/transitting planet and the natal chart, creating constant changes in the native that must impact upon the interpretation of the midpoint picture......(Thus, the interpretation of a midpoint picture created by the first Saturn cycle will not be the same as the interpretation of the same midpoint picture at the second Saturn cycle......because the native will have changed/developed.)
1. Midpoint pictures facilitate a detailed interpretation of events indicated by transits (and progressions).
2. A midpoint picture consists of the natal midpoint of two planets/points (or one of each) and a natal/progressed/transitting planet (or point) making a hard aspect to it.......The latter is the "focal point" and has an allowable orb of 2.5 degrees.
3. Planets or points involved in the natal midpoint/focal point cannot be a progressed/transitting focal point.
3. Hard aspects are defined as conjunctions; semi-squares; squares; sesquiquadrates (135 degrees) and oppositions.......which can be identified using a 45 degree midpoint dial......(But a 90 degree midpoint dial clearly identifies hard aspects in signs of the same quality......Cardinal, Fixed or Mutable)
4. The focal point indicates "what can be accomplished" and the midpoint defines "how it can be accomplished"......which we can express as the equation X = Y/Z, where X is the focal point and Y/Z is the midpoint.
5. However, a complete interpretation of the Midpoint Picture must incorporate the natal meaning/purpose/"signature" of the three planets/points......So our equation becomes NX = N(Y/Z), where N represents the natal signature/interpretation.
6. Since planets radiate energy but points do not, there is a two-way interaction/influence between the planets in a midpoint picture but not between a planet and a point......and there is a permanent (dialetic) dialogue between the progressed/transitting planet and the natal chart, creating constant changes in the native that must impact upon the interpretation of the midpoint picture......(Thus, the interpretation of a midpoint picture created by the first Saturn cycle will not be the same as the interpretation of the same midpoint picture at the second Saturn cycle......because the native will have changed/developed.)
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starlink
Well-known member
Hi Vinyasa, thanks for the comment.
I do not see the ASC and MC as personal points and have a problem seeing it as a reflecting personal point.They have no energy, they dont represent an energy in our psychological set-up. It shows the gates to the outside world.
I have read (long ago)for instance, that if there are no aspects to the Ascendant or MC in a chart, the person wont be able to bring his or her energies outwards. They wont come to very much in this life, no matter how much they actually can and want to do. Have you ever heard that? I am still a bit unsure about this, but in a way that does sound plausible to me.
Lila
Well-known member
Hi Tora and All,
I have read all of your posts. I promise you answering them by tomorrow.
I am also experiencing lots of unexpected events. Uranus is the ruler of my ascendant being also Uranus( Focal Point )= my Moon/Sun( the most significant midpoint at any Chart).
I am with You.
Regards,
Lila
I have read all of your posts. I promise you answering them by tomorrow.
I am also experiencing lots of unexpected events. Uranus is the ruler of my ascendant being also Uranus( Focal Point )= my Moon/Sun( the most significant midpoint at any Chart).
I am with You.
Regards,
Lila
Vinyasa
Well-known member
Hi to all!
I feel very excited by this thread and I would like to deepen our theoretical discussion on the midpoints and their philosophy, however I am at the moment reluctant to post more here because I have the feeling we have deviated from the original questions of Tora, she may need more specific answers, and if I post an answer on the last post from Starlink (which I really want to do, concerning "reflecting personal points", as I find this issue also very exciting), then... well, it could be that I will have completely hijacked the thread of Tora and I would feel bad about it...
If you all agree, is it possible Starlink that we move all the theoretical posts of the discussion, not directly connected to Tora's question, into a new thread, concerning midpoints generally? I don't know if this is a normal procedure, but I am looking forward into deepening this discussion and I am not sure if I am allowed to right here...
I feel very excited by this thread and I would like to deepen our theoretical discussion on the midpoints and their philosophy, however I am at the moment reluctant to post more here because I have the feeling we have deviated from the original questions of Tora, she may need more specific answers, and if I post an answer on the last post from Starlink (which I really want to do, concerning "reflecting personal points", as I find this issue also very exciting
), then... well, it could be that I will have completely hijacked the thread of Tora and I would feel bad about it...If you all agree, is it possible Starlink that we move all the theoretical posts of the discussion, not directly connected to Tora's question, into a new thread, concerning midpoints generally? I don't know if this is a normal procedure, but I am looking forward into deepening this discussion and I am not sure if I am allowed to right here...
EJ53
Banned
That would certainly help me to keep-up/stay focused on both elements of this thread.
Maybe Lila might also consider posting an article about Midpoint Pictures on the Education Board.
Lila
Well-known member
Hi Forum,
First I need apologizing Tora once she got no personal response to the questions. I am going to focus right now on her questions.
With regard to aspect considerations I frankly consider that all aspects are “squares” ( geometrically speaking of course). In fact, aspects bring symbols of behavioral needs and faculties together into relationships of development. Some blocks are bigger or stronger than others but what is crucial to realize is the fact that they all work together for values we as individuals all share.
The fulfillment of NEEDS is our real effort to reach the Sun. If you put all aspects upon a semicircle of Arc from conjunction to opposition it is the image of the lunation cycle: The Sun and the Moon are joined together in high focus; then one moves more quickly than the other and increases its angular relationship to that source of inspiration carrying the message forward until the full awareness, which is at opposition.
The conjunction has the developmental tension of high focus, the gathering of source; The square aspect has the developmental tension of disagreement or testing for assimilation and the opposition aspect of full awareness. They are all different from one another and as I said before they try and work for the fulfillment of the Sun. Your foremost needs are represented by the energies of your Sun and Moon( Aries-Aquarius symbolisms respectively) . The Aries Sun ruling the 8 th house. ( That’s essential) must be fulfilled by the activities from the Aquarius Moon( ruling the public 7 th house).
A square contains and can triggers tensional times but also encourages us to take action because we feel uncomfortable enough to provoke action. It provides us the needed stimulus for the changing times that are arriving to you.
Your Sun is a Peregrine Planet( not in Ptolemaic aspect with any other planet) as well as Saturn (r.1). When this happens at a Horoscope what is clearly suggested is that they both make a lot of “noise” in the personality in order to attract attention, in order to make things happen. They usually become the person’s mark of distinction and in your case are both situated on the 3 rd house- communication, selling, information etc (I am aware this could be understood as strange and peculiar deductions but they aren’t).
Now turning to your specific question the previous aspect significances I mentioned are the same to the Midpoint pictures.
Natally You have Mercury(76º 45’)= Moon/Sun(75º 16’) ( always put on the left hand side of the equation the fastest planet). Mercury is located on the 2 rd house, it rules the 6 th -8 - 9 th houses and it is strongly accentuated by the two potent contacts of Uranus and Pluto; That’s a powerful aspect connection configuration. It may be substituted with the following keywords – keep in mind that Mercury rules the 6 th, the 8 th by co-ruling and the 9 th houses; and that Moon/Sun midpoint is located on the third house :
“ The efficient use of communication/ thoughts/ideas=will be involved as the central unifying focus for you and in your interactions with others “. You can reach it by embracing issues associated with the 6th-8th-9th houses.
That’s it.!
Anticipating briefly your life direction it will change totally, but not in health matters, though. (Neptune is the ruler of your 3 rd house; If it were health considerations you may consider other than Neptune motions. J)
The H. is indicating this in many different ways. To cite a few in Dec 2009 the Horoscope is showing SA Mercury= Mh, with the corroborative transits of Tr. Saturn opposing Natal Saturn ( full awareness of), and Pluto moving forward the Ascendant ( final hit).
Your changing process is a gradual process. By August 2011 this new challenging times will be almost concluded and integrated within your newly personal professional perspectives ( SA North Node= Uranus which is confirmed by Tr. Uranus cj Saturn the ruler of the identify ( peregrine factor, remember?) also with the final passage of Tr. Saturn over the Sun by August 2011.
Referring to 2010 SR I totally disagree with tour thoughts and interpretation. ( No offence)
The Stellium configuration on the 2010 SR is bringing up your 3 rd Natal house!.
Again what is fully suggested is the stimulation of communication-selling/exporting-information, international arenas.
I really hopes this is helpful for you !!
Regards,
Lila Viana
First I need apologizing Tora once she got no personal response to the questions. I am going to focus right now on her questions.
With regard to aspect considerations I frankly consider that all aspects are “squares” ( geometrically speaking of course). In fact, aspects bring symbols of behavioral needs and faculties together into relationships of development. Some blocks are bigger or stronger than others but what is crucial to realize is the fact that they all work together for values we as individuals all share.
The fulfillment of NEEDS is our real effort to reach the Sun. If you put all aspects upon a semicircle of Arc from conjunction to opposition it is the image of the lunation cycle: The Sun and the Moon are joined together in high focus; then one moves more quickly than the other and increases its angular relationship to that source of inspiration carrying the message forward until the full awareness, which is at opposition.
The conjunction has the developmental tension of high focus, the gathering of source; The square aspect has the developmental tension of disagreement or testing for assimilation and the opposition aspect of full awareness. They are all different from one another and as I said before they try and work for the fulfillment of the Sun. Your foremost needs are represented by the energies of your Sun and Moon( Aries-Aquarius symbolisms respectively) . The Aries Sun ruling the 8 th house. ( That’s essential) must be fulfilled by the activities from the Aquarius Moon( ruling the public 7 th house).
A square contains and can triggers tensional times but also encourages us to take action because we feel uncomfortable enough to provoke action. It provides us the needed stimulus for the changing times that are arriving to you.
Your Sun is a Peregrine Planet( not in Ptolemaic aspect with any other planet) as well as Saturn (r.1). When this happens at a Horoscope what is clearly suggested is that they both make a lot of “noise” in the personality in order to attract attention, in order to make things happen. They usually become the person’s mark of distinction and in your case are both situated on the 3 rd house- communication, selling, information etc (I am aware this could be understood as strange and peculiar deductions but they aren’t).
Now turning to your specific question the previous aspect significances I mentioned are the same to the Midpoint pictures.
Natally You have Mercury(76º 45’)= Moon/Sun(75º 16’) ( always put on the left hand side of the equation the fastest planet). Mercury is located on the 2 rd house, it rules the 6 th -8 - 9 th houses and it is strongly accentuated by the two potent contacts of Uranus and Pluto; That’s a powerful aspect connection configuration. It may be substituted with the following keywords – keep in mind that Mercury rules the 6 th, the 8 th by co-ruling and the 9 th houses; and that Moon/Sun midpoint is located on the third house :
“ The efficient use of communication/ thoughts/ideas=will be involved as the central unifying focus for you and in your interactions with others “. You can reach it by embracing issues associated with the 6th-8th-9th houses.
That’s it.!
Anticipating briefly your life direction it will change totally, but not in health matters, though. (Neptune is the ruler of your 3 rd house; If it were health considerations you may consider other than Neptune motions. J)
The H. is indicating this in many different ways. To cite a few in Dec 2009 the Horoscope is showing SA Mercury= Mh, with the corroborative transits of Tr. Saturn opposing Natal Saturn ( full awareness of), and Pluto moving forward the Ascendant ( final hit).
Your changing process is a gradual process. By August 2011 this new challenging times will be almost concluded and integrated within your newly personal professional perspectives ( SA North Node= Uranus which is confirmed by Tr. Uranus cj Saturn the ruler of the identify ( peregrine factor, remember?) also with the final passage of Tr. Saturn over the Sun by August 2011.
Referring to 2010 SR I totally disagree with tour thoughts and interpretation. ( No offence)
The Stellium configuration on the 2010 SR is bringing up your 3 rd Natal house!.
Again what is fully suggested is the stimulation of communication-selling/exporting-information, international arenas.
I really hopes this is helpful for you !!
Regards,
Lila Viana