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Unread 01-07-2017, 03:15 PM
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Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

I had been studying vedic astrology a bit to compliment my study of western astrology. I came across a couple of very knowledgeable individuals, such as Ernst Willhelm, who use the tropical zodiac in the vedic system. Fascinated by this, I emailed Ernst about it and he replied that the Indians lost knowledge of the procession a couple of thousand years ago and since then vedic astrology has been out of sync by still using the sidereal zodiac. However, he still uses sidereal to work out the "Nakshatra" of a particular planet, because that is based on the fixed stars.

It's very hard to reconcile how both the sidereal and tropical zodiac can function together, especially in regards to planetary strength in particular signs. e.g. a tropical Jupiter in Capricorn is in it's fall but in domicile in sidereal. Same with a Venus in tropical Scorpio. Or on the other side, a tropical Mars in in domicile Scorpio is a sidereal debilitated Mars in Libra.

But using Ernst Wilhelm's way, all that dissapears. He just uses the sidereal zodiac for the fixed star Nakshatra constellations. Since using this method, everything is beginning to make sense.

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Unread 01-09-2017, 11:53 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

The Indians didn't lose track of anything. And it's the tropical zodiac (aka fixed zodiac) that is out of sync, not the sidereal zodiac. Check out Sri Yukteswar's 'The Holy Science' for more details. There he explains that our Sun is part of a binary system (dual star system) with another star, they revolve around each other - which takes about 24,000 years in our terms (aka one 'Great Year') - and which creates the phenomenon of precession (which is not constant, btw) that causes the astrological ages.

Many have tried to reconcile or justify both zodiacs. I remember Santos Bonacci suggesting that the tropical zodiac works best for the physical body and other physical things while the sidereal zodiac works best for everything beyond the mere physical. But Wilhelm's method sounds like total confusion to me.
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Unread 01-09-2017, 05:26 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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The Indians didn't lose track of anything. And it's the tropical zodiac (aka fixed zodiac) that is out of sync, not the sidereal zodiac. Check out Sri Yukteswar's 'The Holy Science' for more details. There he explains that our Sun is part of a binary system (dual star system) with another star, they revolve around each other - which takes about 24,000 years in our terms (aka one 'Great Year') - and which creates the phenomenon of precession (which is not constant, btw) that causes the astrological ages.

Many have tried to reconcile or justify both zodiacs. I remember Santos Bonacci suggesting that the tropical zodiac works best for the physical body and other physical things while the sidereal zodiac works best for everything beyond the mere physical. But Wilhelm's method sounds like total confusion to me.
Yes, I'd expect it to be quite controversial but I've learned a lot from Wilhelm and I've got a lot of respect for him as an astrolger.

The fact is though that the tropical zodiac doesn't just work with the physical body as any practitioner of western astrologer could vouch for. And just looking at the simple problems mentioned, e.g. how a strong tropical Mars in Scorpio is a weak one in sidereal Libra is hard to reconcile. I'd be interested on your take on that issue in particular.
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Unread 01-09-2017, 08:38 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Both the western and Indian systems are rich in content and require the whole life time to understand. Each has concepts and applications that are woven closely into each other. Indian astrologers have been making very stupendous predictions over time. They have not imported concepts from any other system.
To take out a concept from its context and introduce it into an entirely unconnected fabric cannot result in anything worthwhile.
Each system has stood the test of time. To say that Western system is good for psychological analysis only is incorrect. William Lillee has been one of the greatest horary predictor world has known.
To say that the Indian system is good only for predictions is equally flawed.
Why do we not go into the details of each system and try to see how far the concepts of the system can be used effectively to go beyond the supposed limitations of the system.
To import the concepts of one system into the incompatible surroundings of another would in my opinion be only wasting ones time. Some proponents of one system are trying to do it should not be a precedent for serious learners of either system.
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Unread 01-09-2017, 09:00 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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To import the concepts of one system into the incompatible surroundings of another would in my opinion be only wasting ones time. Some proponents of one system are trying to do it should not be a precedent for serious learners of either system.
I personally disagree. Astrology is a study of nature and astrology itself could care less about the arbitrary identities of various traditions. It is what it is and we're trying to figure it out.

Astrology as we learn it today is the product of the integration of principles and concepts from different sects over time, the results of which are closely related to how geographically close the various groups were to eachother at the time. In western astrology many have integrated the 'arabic parts' for instance and some of the fundamentals have also changed over time by adapting and integration of different practices. I'm sure it's the same with vedic.

Assuming that we've created two completely different systems that don't work together is the easy way out, perhaps a way of avoiding the tropical/sidereal problem which is probably the core of the issue. I see no reason why various yogas can't be used in western when you move away from thinking about it as arbitrary rules written down and instead start thinking about what is actually going on and why these yogas are happening. Also, when you think about things like Venus conjunct Moon being usually seen as a negative thing in vedic but in western it's generally assumed to be positive... a western practitioner can certainly integrate that vedic assumption. A venus/moon conjunction is going to be in conjunction in vedic or western regardless of the zodiac used! And then it's going to be the same with a lot of other things albeit with added complexities.

Just as in science they are trying to find the unifying theory, I believe we should have more of that in the various branches of astrology rather than separate traditions who don't communicate with eachother. That's my opinion anyway! It's certainly not an easy task, but I'm trying to find things that work.
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Unread 01-10-2017, 05:18 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post
Yes, I'd expect it to be quite controversial but I've learned a lot from Wilhelm and I've got a lot of respect for him as an astrolger.

The fact is though that the tropical zodiac doesn't just work with the physical body as any practitioner of western astrologer could vouch for. And just looking at the simple problems mentioned, e.g. how a strong tropical Mars in Scorpio is a weak one in sidereal Libra is hard to reconcile. I'd be interested on your take on that issue in particular.
What zodiac does Wilhelm use for calculating the Navamsa?

Personally, I switched from tropical to sidereal quite a while ago because the tropical zodiac just didn't work, especially on the physical level. So I can't agree with Santos Bonacci there. But it's an interesting thought. To me the tropical system is flawed in theory already so I don't see the point in reconciling anything. But when you switch to sidereal you then have another problem, you have to find the correct Ayanamsa. In the beginning the default Lahiri Ayanamsa worked just fine until I started doing more predictive astrology, dates were off by almost a year. Switching to Yukteswar/Raman Ayanamsa kinda resolved that issue. And that's what I am using at the moment.
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Unread 01-10-2017, 07:28 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post
I personally disagree. Astrology is a study of nature and astrology itself could care less about the arbitrary identities of various traditions. It is what it is and we're trying to figure it out.

Astrology as we learn it today is the product of the integration of principles and concepts from different sects over time, the results of which are closely related to how geographically close the various groups were to eachother at the time. In western astrology many have integrated the 'arabic parts' for instance and some of the fundamentals have also changed over time by adapting and integration of different practices. I'm sure it's the same with vedic.

Assuming that we've created two completely different systems that don't work together is the easy way out, perhaps a way of avoiding the tropical/sidereal problem which is probably the core of the issue. I see no reason why various yogas can't be used in western when you move away from thinking about it as arbitrary rules written down and instead start thinking about what is actually going on and why these yogas are happening. Also, when you think about things like Venus conjunct Moon being usually seen as a negative thing in vedic but in western it's generally assumed to be positive... a western practitioner can certainly integrate that vedic assumption. A venus/moon conjunction is going to be in conjunction in vedic or western regardless of the zodiac used! And then it's going to be the same with a lot of other things albeit with added complexities.

Just as in science they are trying to find the unifying theory, I believe we should have more of that in the various branches of astrology rather than separate traditions who don't communicate with eachother. That's my opinion anyway! It's certainly not an easy task, but I'm trying to find things that work.
Vedic and traditional western astrology are closely related. Traditional western initially used the sidereal zodiac as well. Modern western, however, is somehow cut off from its roots.

And as a matter of fact, if you do a full chart analysis western style with aspects and house rulers then you would (unknowingly perhaps) use a lot of configurations that are known as yogas in vedic astrology. You just wouldn't recognize or classify them as such. The result is the same though.

I, too, think that there's one original astrology. If we go with the theory of the astrological ages, then all cultures have actually known and practiced the original astrology at one point in time, which means questions like did the Indians get astrology from the Greeks or vice versa somehow miss the point. Astrology hasn't been 'invented' by any specific culture and then passed on to other cultures that had no clue whatsoever. Instead, it has been known by all cultures but they preserved it in different ways during their individual and collective cycles of decline. So somehow we have to find the way back to the source concepts of the original astrology thru the various traditions. And in that sense, vedic astrology is quite a treasure trove, much richer and more organized and (seemingly?) complete than all the various western traditions together. The Indians preserved it quite well. The knowledge of why astrology works as it does seems to have been lost though.
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Unread 01-10-2017, 11:25 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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Vedic and traditional western astrology are closely related.

Traditional western initially used the sidereal zodiac as well.

Modern western, however, is somehow cut off from its roots.

And as a matter of fact, if you do a full chart analysis western style with aspects and house rulers then you would (unknowingly perhaps) use a lot of configurations that are known as yogas in vedic astrology. You just wouldn't recognize or classify them as such. The result is the same though.
In fact, some traditional western astrologers use the sidereal zodiac
and offer courses to students
http://www.westernsiderealastrology.com/

CURRRENTLY ACTIVE 2017 SIDEREAL WESTERN ASTROLOGICAL FORUM
http://www.solunars.net/

“Solunars” was the title of Cyril Fagan’s 17-year continuous series
introducing and forwarding Sidereal astrology.
It ran in American Astrology Magazine from 1953 until his death in 1970.
The name is picked for this site to honor his pioneering work
and to proclaim the standard
http://www.solunars.com/

https://westernsiderealastrology.wor...eal-astrology/
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Unread 01-10-2017, 04:07 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Vic DiCara describes it best for me on YouTube. He also has a book with a great title if anyone prefers reading. I took some notes based on his teachings and tried to summarise it for a curious audience:

Rational Tropical Vedic Astrology

The core of astrology is the science of telling time.

Zodiac signs are a calander, based upon the yogic dance between the sun and the moon. The signs are given their names based on star constellations. These were the names given by ancient cultures at the start of recording time, but it is important to note that the signs themselves are no longer the actual constellations they once referred to.

Much like a clock, the zodiac relies on the tropics to keep time for events on earth, and therefore not the actual stars or constellations themselves. The entire system of a clock does not change just because space-time changes around it. In fact, it stays fixed precisely in order to measure time against it.

The clocks, calanders, and therefore zodiac signs, are all fixed in their mechanics, and based on the tropical equinoxes and solstices, as opposed to star constellations.

Surya Siddhantha:
"The circle of signs (zodiac) is split by two diameters: Solstice and equinox. Stars and signs move out of sync with one another."

Srimad Bhagavatam:
"The sun is in Aries or Libra when the days and nights are equal. It moves north six months in Capricorn, and south six months in Cancer."

Mul.Apin:
"Lunar time is sidereal. Solar time is tropical."

Babylonians:
"If the star when the sun rises on the equinox is the scales (Libra) then our time is balanced. If not, we need to put in a leap month."

Ptolemy:
"We must follow the solstices to define the beginning of space - not the stars who reference those solstices. The zodiac is a circle - there is no beginning to it - but the sign that begins at the vernal equinox acts as the beginning."

The Greeks measure the vernal equinox of Aries against the stars that are called Aries.

The problem here is the star constellations have the same name as the signs. That is where most of the confusion comes from, for both modern western astronomers and traditional Indian Vedic astrologers alike.

The confusion is in thinking that the thing that is the reference is the thing that is the object being made a reference of. It's easy to make this mistake, especially centuries ago when the difference was so small. Even if you made this mistake, there was no big difference to telling time - but the stars shifted, as did time, and now there is a bigger significant difference.

So, the idea of twelve sidereal zodiac signs based on the actual shifting star constellations arose by mistakening the references of the zodiac for the original zodiac. It is similar to mistakening the event of sunrise for 06:00 A.M. on a clock, and then shifting the clock to 06:00 A.M. every time the sunrise happens.

The clock is designed to measure a consistent morning, mid-day, evening, and night, based on the fluctuating sun and moon, relative to the tropics and the solstices. It is based on the earth and the equator. It does not need changing every time the things it is measuring changes, or the things outside of it change.

It is important to state here, this does not mean that all sidereal astrology is nonsensical. Sidereal astrology is still valid in many ways, especially when it comes to measuring fixed stars (Nakshratras), and these methods can even be more accurate than measuring planets and signs for some specific things on earth, especially in specific moments (Muhurtas).

But, to conclude, the intention here is to describe why the original tropical zodiac doesn't change for measuring planets and signs, just like the original clock doesn't change for measuring minutes and seconds. It has to stay fixed to measure time around it, and it stays fixed to the tropics, i.e. the equinoxes and the solstices.

Our year is based on the movement of the sun relative to the earth. This is equivalent to the hour hand of the zodiac. Our months are based on the moon. This is equivalent the minute hand of the zodiac.

The twelve signs are twelve months, just like twelve hours. Our measurements for years and months stay the same, but time changes. We measure the fluctuations of the solar system around these fixed systems. Our fixed systems are designed to relate to the perspective of living things on earth.

Our systems for measuring everything in the universe, and deducing both its practical and creative meaning, will never be perfect, but the basics of the original tropical vedic zodiac signs, and planets, are as accurate as can be. They have stood the test of ancient time.
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Unread 01-10-2017, 08:32 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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What zodiac does Wilhelm use for calculating the Navamsa?

Personally, I switched from tropical to sidereal quite a while ago because the tropical zodiac just didn't work, especially on the physical level.
Wilhelm uses sidereal for Nakshatras and tropical for everything else, including Navamsas.

In regards to the vedic vs western on the physical level, when it comes to something like physical appearance, I find western very, very accurate. I can see clear distinctions in the facial features of various signs and if I'm wrong on the sign it often ends up being a different sign of the same element. I think the elements play a larger role in western astrology and I'm into hermetics so that's a big factor for how I understand things. If you look at someone who's got lots of say Leo, for instance, you can see and feel that fiery element from them... to attribute that to a bunch planets in sidereal Cancer doesn't compute with me. Some say that sidereal works more on a different, perhaps more spiritual level, and this might the paradox, but then it raises the question why you find it works better on the physical level for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
Vedic and traditional western astrology are closely related. Traditional western initially used the sidereal zodiac as well. Modern western, however, is somehow cut off from its roots.

And as a matter of fact, if you do a full chart analysis western style with aspects and house rulers then you would (unknowingly perhaps) use a lot of configurations that are known as yogas in vedic astrology. You just wouldn't recognize or classify them as such. The result is the same though.

I, too, think that there's one original astrology. If we go with the theory of the astrological ages, then all cultures have actually known and practiced the original astrology at one point in time, which means questions like did the Indians get astrology from the Greeks or vice versa somehow miss the point. Astrology hasn't been 'invented' by any specific culture and then passed on to other cultures that had no clue whatsoever. Instead, it has been known by all cultures but they preserved it in different ways during their individual and collective cycles of decline. So somehow we have to find the way back to the source concepts of the original astrology thru the various traditions.
Exactly, I'm of the same mindset as you here, I think a lot of concepts can be integrated. Although I'm personally of the opinion that the tropical zodiac is the one to use for integration (Taurus9 has some great points above).

But if it's not one or the other then it's really a big question as to what the two zodiacs represent in relation to eachother and how they could possibly function at the same time.
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Unread 01-11-2017, 06:11 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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Wilhelm uses sidereal for Nakshatras and tropical for everything else, including Navamsas.
That's exactly where it gets confusing because the Navamsa is also Nakshatra related. That's the beauty or genius of the Navamsa, Nakshatra padas translate directly into one of the 12 zodiac signs in the Navamsa. So if he uses the tropical zodiac for the Navamsa but the sidereal zodiac for Nakshatras then there's something out of sync again and he has something to reconcile again. So by (seemingly) solving one problem he creates another.
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Unread 01-11-2017, 08:19 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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there's something out of sync again
My general understanding is that it is intended to be out of sync for different things and that he doesn't see being out of sync as a problem at all.

For example, in theory just because Nakshatra padas translate directly into one of the 12 zodiac signs in the Navamsa, it doesn't mean that the Vedas intended the original zodiac to stay measured sidereally this way 5000 years later. And even if they did for some things, it doesn't mean that it is an accurate method for predicting humans living tropically against the sidereal stars around them. It may still be more accurate for other prediction methods though...

At least that is how I interpret it so far anyway. I have not studied long enough to thoroughly test the various methods personally and objectively and read the original Sanskrit. However, I also don't have much reason to doubt those who have and have concluded this. Certainly I have been most intrigued by results from very basic tropical vedic whole sign astrology and I am very open minded to it especially for the birth chart. However, I am also aware that perhaps when I am 10 years older and read my Navamsa D9, I may have a completely different perspective. But that will be the case anyway regardless, perhaps even in 1 year at this rate if I am still interested in learning. I think that it is good to keep questioning these things in yourself.

Last edited by Taurus9; 01-11-2017 at 08:31 AM.
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Unread 01-11-2017, 03:09 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

@muchacho, do you plan on addressing these?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post
[...]just looking at the simple problems mentioned, e.g. how a strong tropical Mars in Scorpio is a weak one in sidereal Libra is hard to reconcile. I'd be interested on your take on that issue in particular.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post
Some say that sidereal works more on a different, perhaps more spiritual level, and this might the paradox, but then it raises the question why you find it works better on the physical level for you.
Or are you avoiding them for some reason?
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Unread 01-11-2017, 03:38 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post

The fact is though
that the tropical zodiac doesn't just work with the physical body
as any practitioner of western astrologer could vouch for.
And just looking at the simple problems mentioned,
e.g. how a strong tropical Mars in Scorpio is a weak one in sidereal Libra
is hard to reconcile.
I'd be interested on your take on that issue in particular.

The fact is that
not all strong Tropical Mars in Scorpio are weak Sidereal libra

Some strong Tropical Mars in Scorpio are also strong Sidereal Mars in Scorpio
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Unread 01-11-2017, 10:25 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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The fact is that
not all strong Tropical Mars in Scorpio are weak Sidereal libra

Some strong Tropical Mars in Scorpio are also strong Sidereal Mars in Scorpio
Sure, the zodiacs are out of sync by about 24 degrees so that means about 20% would be the same in both zodiacs. I've also got a few planets in my chart which don't change signs when you switch the zodiac.
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Unread 01-11-2017, 10:46 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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That's exactly where it gets confusing because the Navamsa is also Nakshatra related. That's the beauty or genius of the Navamsa, Nakshatra padas translate directly into one of the 12 zodiac signs in the Navamsa. So if he uses the tropical zodiac for the Navamsa but the sidereal zodiac for Nakshatras then there's something out of sync again and he has something to reconcile again. So by (seemingly) solving one problem he creates another.
My basic understanding of the Navamsa is that it's a Varga chart, aka a divisional chart made by dividing the signs by a number (9 in the case of the Navamsa). I haven't studied them in depth so I can't comment on how important I think the padas correlating to a sign in this divisional chart is. It's too bad Wilhelm isn't a member of this forum otherwise we could get his take on it since he's very experienced with using both zodiacs.
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Unread 01-13-2017, 11:58 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by sibylline View Post
@muchacho, do you plan on addressing these?

Quote:
1) [...]just looking at the simple problems mentioned, e.g. how a strong tropical Mars in Scorpio is a weak one in sidereal Libra is hard to reconcile. I'd be interested on your take on that issue in particular.
Quote:
2) Some say that sidereal works more on a different, perhaps more spiritual level, and this might the paradox, but then it raises the question why you find it works better on the physical level for you.
Or are you avoiding them for some reason?
1) The tropical zodiac is out of sync with the larger cycles. And the seasonal argument is bogus, too. So I don't see the need to reconcile anything.

2) Physiognomy.
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Unread 01-13-2017, 02:31 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

There's a thread on skyscript about tropical vedic astrology:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7691
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Unread 01-13-2017, 04:49 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

I've read that discussion. It doesn't resolve much.

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
1) The tropical zodiac is out of sync with the larger cycles. And the seasonal argument is bogus, too. So I don't see the need to reconcile anything.
What is bogus about it?

What do you think of sidereal not actually reflecting the sky since constellations are far from a neat 30 degrees each? I mention this because often the sidereal is heralded as being reflective of "reality" in regards to what can be seen in the sky when that's just not the case. There are other theoretical arguments for sidereal but this one seems to be the one introduced most often and what draws people to sidereal from tropical.

The fact that Vedic astrologers are all using different ayanamsas fairly well in their practices would indicate that the issue of the zodiac is not cut and dried in astrology as a whole, and certainly not in Vedic.

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2) Physiognomy.
This is simply restating what you've already said.

What about physiognomy using Vedic works better? What do you use in judging physical appearance? Just the Ascendant?

Last edited by sibylline; 01-13-2017 at 04:58 PM.
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Unread 01-14-2017, 12:42 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

What I've learned from the skyscript thread is that Wilhelm did change a lot more than just switching from sidereal to tropical. He kinda totally broke with the tradition except for techniques. And it's not clear how extensive his 'research' actually is since he hasn't published anything. I think that was the main point of critique.

An astrological theory should work for the entire globe. The seasonal argument only works for the temperate climate zone of the northern hemisphere, that's at best only 1/6 of earth's total surface area. We've had a discussion about that before, check out this thread for details:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...t=96478&page=4

Apart from the fact that the figures of the constellations are more or less arbitrarily drawn (you can basically connect the dots/stars of a constellation into whatever figure you want), the constellations are also changing appearance because the individual stars are drifting slowly apart. So obviously the constellations are not to be taken literally. The division of the sky is more about numerology and geometry. Check out Zoller's work on that.

Yes, finding the correct Ayanamsa has always been a hot topic. I suspect that's what caused Wilhelm to switch back to tropical.

For physiognomy just looking at the Ascendant can be very misleading. You would have to also look at Moon and Sun placements and planets associated with. And you better work with nocturnal/diurnal and decans (drekkana or D-3 in vedic) as well. Check out Hill's book The Astrological Body Types for more details.
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Unread 01-14-2017, 02:38 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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An astrological theory should work for the entire globe. The seasonal argument only works for the temperate climate zone of the northern hemisphere, that's at best only 1/6 of earth's total surface area.
It still works because Aries-Libra is always an equinox, Cancer-Capricorn always a solstice. Mutable signs mark the end of seasons in tropical; in sidereal they aren't indicated by anything in particular yet retain the same characteristics.

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For physiognomy just looking at the Ascendant can be very misleading. You would have to also look at Moon and Sun placements and planets associated with. And you better work with nocturnal/diurnal and decans (drekkana or D-3 in vedic) as well. Check out Hill's book The Astrological Body Types for more details.
I have that book. I fit my tropical Ascendant appearance almost perfectly. I understand this is a rarity in any zodiac but this doesn't help sidereal. With the charts I have, they are more fitting with their tropical positions as well, even if not perfect.
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Unread 01-14-2017, 08:10 AM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

In the southern hemisphere the seasons are reversed and in the tropics near the equator there are no seasons at all. Click on the link I've posted above. It's all explained in great detail there. The seasonal argument is bogus no matter how you approach it.

Did you just test it with your own chart? I'd say if it isn't a perfect match, then it obviously isn't really working.
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Unread 01-14-2017, 03:05 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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In the southern hemisphere the seasons are reversed and in the tropics near the equator there are no seasons at all. Click on the link I've posted above. It's all explained in great detail there. The seasonal argument is bogus no matter how you approach it.
No, it isn't. You're confusing seasons with climates, which are not the same. Seasons exist all over the globe, no matter how large or small the difference in climate may seem.

Btw, near the equator there are certainly climate changes. I would know because I lived in a country right above the equatorial line for a year.

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Did you just test it with your own chart?
I've tested on hundreds of people for a decade now. Guessing Ascendants used to be one of my "parlor tricks" and I was more often right than wrong.

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
I'd say if it isn't a perfect match, then it obviously isn't really working.
What I'm saying is that the Ascendant doesn't match perfectly, likely due to other factors in the chart and simple genetics. The sidereal Ascendant is a joke, however, no offense.
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Unread 01-14-2017, 03:22 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

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The sidereal Ascendant is a joke, however,

no offense.

That remark is clearly offensive to any sidereal astrologer
and is not backed up by sufficient credible evidence

furthermore
it is important to take into account that sidereal vedic astrologers
have a completely different methodology
from sidereal western astrologers
and so
dismissing ALL forms of sidereal astrological delineation carte blanche
without having studied ALL in depth
is inadvisable
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Unread 01-14-2017, 03:38 PM
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Re: Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Jupiter, your jumping into lecture when you haven't read and/or understood the discussion is not necessary or appreciated.

That comment was in reference to the charts I have studied. With the vast majority of the charts I have studied, the sidereal Ascendant is completely off -- that is a fact. I don't know what muchacho or other siderealists have studied and would never assume to.
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