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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #51  
Unread 10-14-2019, 07:31 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist

... a study done on prostitutes saw Virgo Venus being statistically significant for the set. This was using the astrodatabank. For comparison Taurus and Libra Venus were low in frequency.

Hi conspiracy theorist,
I've seen that, but
there are other factors they don't take into account.
Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post

@AJ
What factors weren't taken into account?
AJ already mentioned
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

.......There's more to it than planets and signs.

a rising day Venus is not the same as a rising night Venus

and it's impacted by the house ruler

and whether or not the house ruler can even see the house it rules


and whether benefics or malefics aspect Venus.
And that's just part of it.

Is Venus between the malelifics

or separate from a malefic and applying to a benefic and on and on.

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  #52  
Unread 10-14-2019, 08:56 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

All,

Personal discussions and comments on people's posting styles are off topic. Deleted a whole conversation on that. Again, no hijacking! If this thread keeps getting hijacked, we'll have to close it.

Warning,
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  #53  
Unread 10-14-2019, 10:12 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Okay im really putting myself out here, but anyway....(but only to help with your astro studies)...and im also not ashamed.

Ive been a sex worker in the past, venus/mars conjunction in libra, in the 9th house though, as to which i still can't make no sense of house wise.

But i suppose i could also add to this thread, as i now can't have sex with anyone without alcohol. Been with current bf since last august and have never had sex with him straight headed. I always need to have had a drink ....(not totally drunk, just something in my system), but then again i did go though another plutonic experience in jan this year that i think set it all off again.

Regarding celibacy, i feel like my sex life is more of a service ...always has been, Maybe thats my 8th house Virgo sun/saturn/nn.

*I may delete this v.soon. Please don't quote **

[Deleted references to Pluto and Nessus because that's not allowed in traditional threads. - Moderator]

And yes my venus/mars is out of sect.
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  #54  
Unread 10-15-2019, 01:05 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Since I can hear the lock and chains clanging sweetly into the night, I will post a link to the prostitution research that I alluded to earlier, before the thread gets locked.

https://astrologyresearch.co.uk/rese...-prostitution/

1+ for the tradition that Mars conjunct Saturn was a significant placement among the set of prostitutes. As such kind of work is filled with all kinds of hazards and danger. We notice some other aspects that crop up that paint a picture of the abuses that can happen in such line of work, since most who do it aren't in the high-end escort business.

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  #55  
Unread 10-15-2019, 01:22 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post

However, the statistic you found on sex workers
didn't say which houses they had their Venus in.
Unless it did and you didn't share that detail.

You were correlating it with Venus in Virgo,
i
mplication being this statistic holds regardless of Venus's house.
Or at least, the source you referenced made that implication.
Good point, well made

HH XIV Dalai Lama is a Virgo Venus

The topic of prostitution differs markedly from that of "celibacy in traditional astrology"
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  #56  
Unread 10-15-2019, 01:39 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

The great thing about these kinds of tests, is that they can be replicated. The only thing stopping someone is lack of know-how, non desire to do the work or being deliberately obtuse.

Notice that all the Venus signs showed up, but Virgo Venus showed up the most. Its similar to average height of NBA professionals. They tend to be taller people, but that doesn't mean that someone that is 5'10" couldn't be a professional. What shows up the most gives insight on what it takes to do or be in a particular field.

Venus in fall does not mean "no sex" just like Mars in fall does not mean "no aggression" and Moon in fall does not mean "no emotions".

Are you purporting to know what the Dalai Lama does behind closed doors?
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  #57  
Unread 10-15-2019, 01:56 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Prostitution can actually have quite a lot in common with celibacy. Where celibacy is the choice to abstain from sex, prostitution is the choice to sell sex. They both have to do with chosen sexual behaviour (in general at least, I'm sure some prostitutes are forced into it, and some who practice celibacy don't do it of their own free will). These chosen behaviours thus have little to do with a person's sexuality, as sexuality is not something you can choose. A person can be straight or gay or asexual and still be prostitute or celibate. So that prostitution study can be very relevant for revealing where the choices we make regarding sex are visible in a chart.
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  #58  
Unread 10-15-2019, 02:03 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Since I can hear the lock and chains clanging sweetly into the night, I will post a link to the prostitution research that I alluded to earlier, before the thread gets locked.
Hi conspiracy theorist,

Honestly, I'm not seeing anything.

First, the sample isn't statistically valid. In college our statistics class was required to work with the university policy center who conducted phone and written polls on a wide variety of topics. A representative statistical sample for the US is roughly 2,386 people.

166 charts is hardly enough.

Second, by his own admission, "...it is difficult to get accurate birth times for this group of people."

Since he doesn't have accurate birth times, you have to wonder if he didn't cast the charts in a way that would support his preconceived ideas.

There's no point in even casting a chart if you don't have an accurate birth-time.

Third, he looks only at prostitutes. In a true representative statistical sample he would need to look at non-prostitutes.

How many people have the same chart conditions he lists but were never prostitutes?

That would be damning evidence against his claim.

Finally, that is not the research I saw. The data I saw had more than 1,000 charts with verified birth-times, but it didn't really prove anything.

That's why I say you have to look at the chart as a whole.

I have a most devious mind and would make an excellent criminal, except my chart won't allow it due to the placement of Sun, Moon and Mercury.

I'm sure there are many women whose charts have the "signature" for prostitution, but if you look at the Ascendant, its ruler, and the placement of Moon and Mercury you'll find their morals are not corrupt and maybe even their morals could not be corrupted so they'd never engage in prostitution regardless of the circumstances.
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  #59  
Unread 10-15-2019, 02:23 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

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Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
SMB and Domna also have an out of sect Venus.
Hi Chrysalis,

Yes, whether a planet is in/out of sect is important to note.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
Ive been a sex worker in the past....
The issue is Venus/Mars not in sect and conjunct. H9 is part of your moral code. The ancients used it to determine how closely one would adhere to the tenants of the gods and the tenants of the gods were more or less moral codes.

[Deleted references to non-traditional post. - Moderator]

Last edited by Osamenor; 10-15-2019 at 03:03 AM.
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  #60  
Unread 10-15-2019, 03:02 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

All,

This is your LAST CHANCE to keep this thread open. If there's one more off topic, attacking, and/or non-traditional post in this thread, it WILL be closed.

Final warning,
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  #61  
Unread 10-15-2019, 03:32 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

@AJ

No need to attribute malice or cynicism on the part of the researcher. Many places on his website he has spoken about the limitations of his astrological research, so you can take it that he looks into astrological truth claims in good faith. He's often spoken about the paucity of his sample sizes and the issue of control groups. Here is one such article that he has entitled the problem with astrology research

A larger sample might ideal, but it is also a costly and resource intensive, and you can count your lucky stars if you find a sponsor with the sufficient money who would invest in a serious astrological study. The largest free public databases I know of astrological information is found at astro.com and astrotheme.com. Since you present like a man who has a handle on things perhaps you have better sources of freely available information that could be used for astrological purposes.

Looking at the whole chart, thanks. As if I haven't heard that for the millionth time. There are enough chart reading that I've done on this forum for anyone to judge if "reading the whole chart" isn't observed.

As to the contention that engaging in prostitution is a moral failing. Interesting. Morality seems to be dependent on the society and the dominant religions that govern them. And there are some that exalt feminine sexuality and sacred prostitution is a thing. Hell, JA's idol comes from a society that has sexual rites encoded in their spiritual practice, but don't tell him that. By some accounts Mary Magdalene was an important figure in early Christianity and she was a prostitute. Was she a moral failure? Jesus didn't seem to think so.

On the other hand, are you saying that someone who wouldn't engage in prostitution under any circumstance won't also be predisposed to murder, lying, cheating, stealing or any other sort of "sin"? I know enough people who wouldn't sell sex but would murder or seriously maim, lie, or other deplorable actions in the name of self-service.
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Unread 10-15-2019, 04:20 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Also, I would like for you to point me in the direction of the prostitution research that you are familiar with. I'm curious to see what was said myself.
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  #63  
Unread 10-15-2019, 05:15 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

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As to the contention that engaging in prostitution is a moral failing. Interesting. Morality seems to be dependent on the society and the dominant religions that govern them. And there are some that exalt feminine sexuality and sacred prostitution is a thing. Hell, JA's idol comes from a society that has sexual rites encoded in their spiritual practice, but don't tell him that. By some accounts Mary Magdalene was an important figure in early Christianity and she was a prostitute. Was she a moral failure? Jesus didn't seem to think so.

On the other hand, are you saying that someone who wouldn't engage in prostitution under any circumstance won't also be predisposed to murder, lying, cheating, stealing or any other sort of "sin"? I know enough people who wouldn't sell sex but would murder or seriously maim, lie, or other deplorable actions in the name of self-service.
AJ didn't say prostitution is a moral failing. He said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
The issue is Venus/Mars not in sect and conjunct. H9 is part of your moral code. The ancients used it to determine how closely one would adhere to the tenants of the gods and the tenants of the gods were more or less moral codes.
If I'm not mistaken, he's talking about social moral codes. What society as a whole considers moral. That's one of the meanings of ninth house as well. Collective beliefs. Social mores. Legislation. While you can make a case that prostitution isn't actually immoral, society as a whole says it is. Anyone who engages in sex work isn't adhering very closely to this social moral code.

That says nothing about their personal morality. Plenty of people who break the social code in one way or another still have ethics, and aren't even necessarily going to break the social code in other ways.
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Unread 10-15-2019, 05:22 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

And my point is that prostitution in some societies aren't against the social mores. Sacred prostitution has and does exist in certain societies. And one can inject their personal morality into a reading so that it clouds judgement, ultimately this is what I would like to guard against.
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Unread 10-15-2019, 05:48 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

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And my point is that prostitution in some societies aren't against the social mores.
Some societies, perhaps, but not the societies you and I and our friend who's been a sex worker live in. We're all in societies where ninth house mores say prostitution = bad.

Doesn't necessarily mean we can't reinterpret the mores on our own terms... but methinks that would be indicated by something like, an out of sect Venus and Mars, one in domicile and the other in fall, conjunct in the ninth house. Something about that person's ninth house is bucking the system of her society.

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Sacred prostitution has and does exist in certain societies.
And in those societies, sex work would have a very different meaning. And possibly different astrological indicators, who knows? Or maybe the same ones playing out in a different way.
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Unread 10-15-2019, 06:26 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

You'd be interested to know that in the tradition, Venus rules priesthoods. The religion of Islam is represented by Venus in Scorpio. The symbols might not be so different after all if they are disposed to sacred prostitution.

By whole signs, her conjunction occurs in the 11th, which all the other charts in this thread were read from. If she happened to have a slightly incorrect birth-time, that conjunction would occur in the 10th. Depending on her actual birth data, which I don't have, MC is located in either Libra or Scorpio, meaning either Mars or Venus has a say in the profession alongside the sign on the 10th. Those are stronger indications for the conjunction to show up if the issue is "sex-worker".

She may or may not have gotten into it because she has no other choice. The details about how she got into it would be enlightening but understandable if she doesn't want to put out more than she already has.

Venus conjunct Mars on its own is enough to be classed as "over-sexed" and hence classed against social mores all on its own, no recourse to houses needed.

Her 9th house HS would be Leo where her Mercury resides. 9th house Mercury sounds like astrologer or "divination", since she also does cartomancy. Mercury is a tricky planet so could certainly mean being at variance with the social mores.

It's a decent interpretation, and it certainly can fit, but the reason why I contest it is because it could be a fluke or beside the point. If she literally did it as a profession (11th house is also income from work) that is more pertinent than it being against what decent society thinks is bad, since you could flip it and say that many people are illicitly accepting of it since it doesn't seem to go away.
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Unread 10-15-2019, 06:52 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

And if we weren't in the wonderful trad section, I would mention that the planet known to give convention the finger is square said Mercury. And would be located in whole sign 12th.
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Unread 10-15-2019, 07:02 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

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And if we weren't in the wonderful trad section, I would mention that the planet known to give convention the finger is square said Mercury. And would be located in whole sign 12th.
In trad, doesn't Mercury give convention the finger, at least under some circumstances?
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Unread 10-15-2019, 07:04 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

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In trad, doesn't Mercury give convention the finger, at least under some circumstances?
Yeah, he's the one who first started middle fingering everyone. He goes anywhere and becomes anything he wants.
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Unread 10-15-2019, 07:42 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

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Yeah, he's the one who first started middle fingering everyone. He goes anywhere and becomes anything he wants.
To go back to the OP, he initially suggested a strong Mercury as a factor in celibacy. Celibacy can also be a bird flipped at convention, if the conventional expectation is that you don't leave your teens a virgin and you generally don't abstain from sex as an adult.

Obviously, a strong Mercury does not automatically make people celibate (or sex workers). But does Mercury perhaps play a part?
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Unread 10-15-2019, 08:17 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

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To go back to the OP, he initially suggested a strong Mercury as a factor in celibacy. Celibacy can also be a bird flipped at convention, if the conventional expectation is that you don't leave your teens a virgin and you generally don't abstain from sex as an adult.

Obviously, a strong Mercury does not automatically make people celibate (or sex workers). But does Mercury perhaps play a part?
It's not impossible, since alongside being the unconventional one he is also the ruler of two out of the three barren signs --- Gemini, Leo and Virgo. Him signifying the cerebral and non-sensual is also pertinent.

In the Thema Mundi, the exaltation of Jupiter and Mars - Cancer and Capricorn - appear in the 1st and 7th house respectively. This is dichotomy between life and death. A similar juxtaposition occurs between the exaltation of Mercury and Venus - Virgo and Pisces - with Virgo appearing in the 3rd and Pisces in the 9th. There's a lot of evocative comparisons that can be made there, but one that I think relevant might be the issue between "locality" (Mercury) and "porous borders" (Venus). In the context of a person, someone who prefers to stay local and within their comfort zone may also be virginal in the sense of not wanting anything foreign to enter into the space that they have demarcated as "familiar territory".

I haven't combed through an entire traditional text in a long while but from what I remember Mercury may be responsible for a lot of sexual perversions or socially unacceptable behaviours. Homosexuality and pederasty being some of the charges it has picked up from the ancients.

Mercury is also "trans" - anything, and with the few charts of transsexuals I've seen I noted the prominence of Mercury. One such example is the chart of Caroline Cossey. The astrologer focused on the Libra planets as adding an extra dosage of femininity, but that quintessential Mercury on the rise is hard to ignore and the transition this man (now woman) did.

Repeating that such and such placement needs to be read in the context of the whole chart is clunky, and a truism that I think by now is tacitly understood by everyone who takes part in these discussions.
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Unread 10-15-2019, 01:41 PM
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Hi,

Which planets and aspects are responsible for making a person celibate for a large part of life or the entire life not for spiritual development but to prevent the native from having a sexual life?

I feel a very strong Mercury as the chart ruler or a very dominant planet, very strong Saturn (need not be the chart ruler) and a badly dignified Venus are responsible for a forced celibate life.

I think Mercury alone can cause the damage without help from any other planet.

What do others think?

Thanks
I am celibate by choice for the last 2/3 years and I have a weak but elevated Venus and Mercury and Mars prominent. Mercury is androgynous, and Venus is not in a good shape so I do not fit easily into relationships because of various reasons, not all necessarily bad reasons like independence and having a deeper mind set. Mercury being androgynous makes sense being that the sexual planet Mars is in Gemini.

When I say Iíve been celibate Iíve managed up until two 6 months periods where I broke my celibacy because I missed the connection but felt unfulfilled afterwards and returned to being celibate again, then an 8 month period and Iím now on the 8 month mark again with no desire to break it except for with the right spiritual connection. Its about taking my power back. Itís done wonders for my self-esteem and energy levels but Iíve experienced heat in my root chakra area, like a lot of it so much a neighbour who Iím friendly with even commented on it lol. I liken it to feeling testosterone and I have found itís given me confidence.

Last edited by Ukpoohbear; 10-15-2019 at 01:43 PM.
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Unread 10-15-2019, 03:56 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
Hi conspiracy theorist,

Honestly, I'm not seeing anything.
First, the sample isn't statistically valid.
In college our statistics class was required to work with the university policy center
who conducted phone and written polls on a wide variety of topics.
A representative statistical sample for the US is roughly 2,386 people.
166 charts is hardly enough.
when one takes into account a world population of seven billion
that's an excellent point
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

Second, by his own admission,
"...it is difficult to get accurate birth times for this group of people."
Since he doesn't have accurate birth times,
you have to wonder
if he didn't cast the charts in a way
that would support his preconceived ideas.
There's no point in even casting a chart
if you don't have an accurate birth-time.
for those beginners reading this thread who do not know
horoscopic astrology is entirely dependent on a reliable time of birth
and so it's clear
this intereting area of research
in this caae IS based on a shaky foundation
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

Third, he looks only at prostitutes.
In a true representative statistical sample he would need to look at non-prostitutes.
How many people have the same chart conditions he lists but were never prostitutes?
That would be damning evidence against his claim.
Certainly if he had added details of non-prostitues with the same chart conditions
that would have been a far more representative statistical sample
- he may have skewed his findings in favor of his thesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

Finally, that is not the research I saw.
The data I saw had more than 1,000 charts with verified birth-times, but it didn't really prove anything.
That's why I say you have to look at the chart as a whole.
I agree - one must consider the chart as a whole - this cannot be too frequently emphasised
particularly within the context of our amateur learning forum
because
albeit members who post may be knowledeable and learned themselves
some being seasoned professionals
it is important to keep in mind that
many readers of these threads on our forum are beginners
who appreciate that these important factors are being highlighted
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

I have a most devious mind and would make an excellent criminal,
except my chart won't allow it due to the placement of Sun, Moon and Mercury.
I'm sure there are many women whose charts have the "signature" for prostitution,
but if you look at the Ascendant, its ruler, and the placement of Moon and Mercury
you'll find their morals are not corrupt
and maybe even their morals could not be corrupted
so they'd never engage in prostitution regardless of the circumstances.
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  #74  
Unread 10-16-2019, 12:22 AM
AJ Astrology AJ Astrology is offline
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
@AJ

No need to attribute malice or cynicism on the part of the researcher.
Hi conspiracy theorist,

I did not attribute malice or cynicism. I simply implied his "study" isn't of any value to anyone.

Quote:
A larger sample might ideal, but it is also a costly and resource intensive, and you can count your lucky stars if you find a sponsor with the sufficient money who would invest in a serious astrological study.

So he lives in Antarctica?

Because I can walk, bike, ride a bus, take a taxi or drive to any part of town where prostitute are. They're chatty, you know? I doubt every one of them would know their birth-time, but that's what consent forms are for.

So what if only 25 of them know their birth-times?

Then you find 25 non-prostitutes who know their birth-times.

You know, a control group. Sociological, psychological and scientific studies all use control groups.

It's shocking he doesn't know that, but then he really doesn't know what he's doing.

Quote:
As to the contention that engaging in prostitution is a moral failing. Interesting.

I said no such thing.

Quote:
On the other hand, are you saying that someone who wouldn't engage in prostitution under any circumstance won't also be predisposed to murder, lying, cheating, stealing or any other sort of "sin"? I know enough people who wouldn't sell sex but would murder or seriously maim, lie, or other deplorable actions in the name of self-service.
Read the chart. It will tell you what you want to know.

Some people have a signature in their chart indicating they will lie and deceive. That doesn't necessarily make them criminals or prostitutes.

The chart will tell you where/what they will engage in lies and deceptions.

Some people lie about themselves. Like the Indian chief who really wasn't a chief and who never conducted classified missions in Cambodia and Laos during the Vietnam War. He was a refrigeration repair specialist in the Marine reserves after the US withdrew troops.

The chart might indicate they'll lie and be deceptive about money and financial matters, and if they also have a criminal signature they might engage in fraud and embezzlement.

Some lie about relationships.

It's all in the chart. If someone has weak morals, you can see how that might manifest itself.
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  #75  
Unread 10-16-2019, 12:31 AM
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conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
I'm sure there are many women whose charts have the "signature" for prostitution, but if you look at the Ascendant, its ruler, and the placement of Moon and Mercury you'll find their morals are not corrupt and maybe even their morals could not be corrupted so they'd never engage in prostitution regardless of the circumstances.
You'd have to clarify what you meant by these two statements, then. By my read you are connecting moral corruption with the practice of prostitution.

The rest of your post is understood.
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