The malefic Saturn ine the house of God

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The sanest religious argument against that I've heard is that astrologers can tell you some things about the future, but we can't tell you all things. I tend to agree with that; astrology is perfect and one of the closest forms of communication we have to God, but astrologers are the weak link in the chain. I think where I part ways is that even though we may never be able to read the sky perfectly, we need to keep working at it, not simply throw it away as a failed attempt. It's far too important.

Odd. I looked up ibn Ezra again, and a dignified Saturn in (especially) or ruling 9 should give true dreams. I have true nightmares, but 9 in my chart is ruled by the Sun in 5. Saturn's in decent shape in 1 (term, face, triplicity), but retrograde.

Still, I don't want to get too off-track with this thread. Just seeing both of you here, I had to ask. And now I shall be puzzled for a bit, but that's ok.
Kaiousei No Senshi, is your nativity a night or a day chart? Also sign and house location of your natal moon is important in this particular context :smile:

“.... Jupiter appearing in the 9th house and in a durnal nativity signifies that the native will be a cultivator of God and trusting God and contemplative so that on account of the decorative glory which he will have in his law, he will be honored by kings and powerful men...” Abu Bakr On Nativities II.1.9:On The Native's Religion
 

tsmall

Premium Member
Odd. I looked up ibn Ezra again, and a dignified Saturn in (especially) or ruling 9 should give true dreams. I have true nightmares, but 9 in my chart is ruled by the Sun in 5. Saturn's in decent shape in 1 (term, face, triplicity), but retrograde.

Still, I don't want to get too off-track with this thread. Just seeing both of you here, I had to ask. And now I shall be puzzled for a bit, but that's ok.

I'm still pretty new, but do you know if ibn Ezra used whole sign houses? If not what house system did he use? I'm just curious if it makes a difference.

This thread is specifically about Saturn in the 9th, but I think several good points have been raised here that are worth exploring further. I wonder if a thread about the 9th house in traditional interpretation would be a good idea?

My 9th house has nothing to do with Saturn and I've had prophetic dreams. Nothing earth shattering, but still.
 

Olivia

Well-known member
I'm still pretty new, but do you know if ibn Ezra used whole sign houses? If not what house system did he use? I'm just curious if it makes a difference.

This thread is specifically about Saturn in the 9th, but I think several good points have been raised here that are worth exploring further. I wonder if a thread about the 9th house in traditional interpretation would be a good idea?

My 9th house has nothing to do with Saturn and I've had prophetic dreams. Nothing earth shattering, but still.

So far as I'm aware, ibn Ezra used the Placidean house system. I use Alchabitius semi-arc, and as for anyone else here...I don't know!
 

tsmall

Premium Member
So far as I'm aware, ibn Ezra used the Placidean house system. I use Alchabitius semi-arc, and as for anyone else here...I don't know!

I wasn't intending to start that old debate. :lol: I have only been learning for a little over a year and so haven't had the chance (or the $$) to read all the authors, and was curious if ibn Ezra was one of the astrologers who used wsh for topics. If he used Placidus, then it would follow that his observations would work in Placidus. If he was quoting an earlier source, then maybe testing in both could show results. That was all I meant, if it wasn't clear.

I belive most people here use Placidus, or a combination of houses.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
tsmall - similar question was asked in 2009 on skyscript and got the following response from Martin Gansten. The thread may be of use to you so I have added a link :smile:

"....I just returned North's Horoscopes and History to the library, so I can't recount the details, but there is evidence (an astrolabe? a description of an astrolabe?) that ibn Ezra favoured what we know as the Placidus system.

Whether he did so for all of his astrological career I can't say. Alcabitius would have been the 'default option' in his day. Perhaps someone else can give a more detailed answer..." Martin Gansten
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4412
 

Olivia

Well-known member
I wasn't intending to start that old debate. :lol: I have only been learning for a little over a year and so haven't had the chance (or the $$) to read all the authors, and was curious if ibn Ezra was one of the astrologers who used wsh for topics. If he used Placidus, then it would follow that his observations would work in Placidus. If he was quoting an earlier source, then maybe testing in both could show results. That was all I meant, if it wasn't clear.

I belive most people here use Placidus, or a combination of houses.

House systems aside (I don't want to get into all of that, either), it's fair to say that of course a good bit of what ibn Ezra says is harmonious with his contemporaneous sources, and with past sources. When he has an argument with someone, he lets you know the who and the why of it.

Still, there are a few things I've come across in his work that I've not found elsewhere, and quite a lot of his one-offs have proven true in my own practise. But even after decades of study, I've not read every bit of traditional material available, either.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
The sanest religious argument against that I've heard is that astrologers can tell you some things about the future, but we can't tell you all things.

They just DON'T have time to tell you all things. To tell you all things, I would need to do the following:

1. Solar Returns for the next 10 years
2. Lunar Return for the next four years
3. All planetry returns for the next 10 years
4. All significant and insignificant asteroid returns for the next 10 years
5. Primary Progressions
6. 2ndary Progressions for the next 10 years
7. Tertiary progressions for the next 10 years
8. Solar Arc Directions for the next 10 years
9. Harmonic Charts and Returns of all harmonic charts 2-64 for the next 10 years
10. Numerical analysis

And this is just to start. Then we start getting specific. Who has time for this? Not me. Hire me full time as your astrologer and I'll tell you everything that going to happen to you.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Just a historical note on house systems used during the Islamic transitional era (during the time of al-Biruni, Ibn Ezra, etc)-the first generation used the whole sign system, but by the 2nd generation, the Rhetorious/Alchabitius format became dominant (with some still following the Porphyry format) The Placidus system (as we know it today) did not emerge until many centuries after the Islamic transitional era: even as late as the 13th Century (in Europe) we find Bonatti exclusively using the Alchabitius house system. From my studies I believe Ibn Ezra (12th century Middle East) used the Alchabitius house format.
 

appleberry

Well-known member
I have Saturn h9 as well but in Gemini. I'm not religious via the church but am a very religious/spiritual person... And consider astrology part of that. As I understand, astrology was the first religion anyway...
 

nasrudin

Member
No offense... I can read wikipedia as well as anyone. I was more interested in knowing what the poster meant by practice.

yes I meant beleif or practice
and I mean by practice all the rituals or acts of good according to one's religion
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
'….North's Horoscopes & History http://www.amazon.com/Horoscopes-History-Warburg-Institute-Surveys/dp/0854810684 says (p. 23) that “….Ibn Ezra seems to have invented the 'hour circles (fixed boundary)' method, that is popularly known as 'Placidus system”.

Ibn Ezra's reconstruction of Ptolemy's system turns to be erroneous, however, as Ptolemy probably used simple whole-image system, except for the special purposes of obtaining the length of life NEVERTHELESS his ideas may have found their route to Placido via Magini.

The description is in his Book of the Fundamentals of Astronomical Tables and the relevant sections are quoted by Cablais on Cielo e Terra website.....'


Intriguing then that :smile:

“..Although Ibn Ezra vehemently criticizes the 'standard method' (that is, the 'Alchabitius' system) and attributes it to al-Khwārizmī and Ibn al-Muthannā, in the only surviving chart cast by him he uses this very method (p. 109). It's dated 29 October, 1136. It is to be found in a separate work of his...there are several charts in the later version of his Book of Nativities, but they appear to have been supplemented by the printer, Erhard Ratdolt, since the dates are from between 1462 and 1485....” source: Levente Laszlo
 

nasrudin

Member
.

So maybe your Saturn in 9th house reminds you of being serious in relation to your beliefs, but to keep an eye open to irrational and bad things related to excessive dogma or a leader of a religion that act in a way that if you act blindly would you make accept everything connected with it. Maybe you are an eye opener to the religious institutions you participate in (don`t know if you have read that fairytale about the a kid being the only one to disagree with irrational crowd mentality and who sees the emperor naked?)

I don`t know if I was a little confusing, what do you think?

I've read it
and I think I can call myself an eye opener.

and here is another question
what 's the reference of true religion in the 9th house?
is it the father's religion?
or the "mainstream" religion?
if that's the case ..I'm already heretic :pinched:
 

Olivia

Well-known member
Always look at the Lot of the Sun, which is the Lot of Mystery, [and]
if you find it in a Jewish nativity in the sign of Aquarius, and in a
Christian nativity in the sign of Leo, and [in the nativity] of a Moslem in
the sign of Scorpio, and the ruler of the Lot is retrograde, [the person] will leave his religion, and this is a proven thing.


Not sure what you mean by the true religion of the native, but if you mean changing religions from the one you were born into then does your Part of Spirit (also known as the Lot of Mystery, or Prophecy) fall into the appropriate place with a retrograde ruler if you did? I don't see how the ruler of Leo could possibly be retrograde, though.

I also don't know if this technique actually works, as I've not had much chance to test it!

Or did you mean something else?
 
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tsmall

Premium Member
and here is another question
what 's the reference of true religion in the 9th house?
is it the father's religion?
or the "mainstream" religion?
if that's the case ..I'm already heretic :pinched:

Just guessing here, but the father's religion might be shown by the 9th from the 4th?

As to the bolded question this is one reference I found.

"the ninth house of pilgrimages and travels, faith and religion, wisdom, philosophy and books, also letters and legates, reports and dreams, and it signifies the beginning of [the second] half of life. Al-Andarzaghar said: the first lord of the triplicity of the house of pilgrimage signifies pilgrimage and everything which happens on it, the second one signifies faith and religion and the good state of these things and their manner, and the third one is the significator of wisdom and dreams, also stars and omens and their truth and lying in this.."

*Translation of al-Qabisi from Benjamin Dykes Introductions to Traditional Astrology
 

Inline

Well-known member
....In my natal chart Saturn is the lord of the 9th house and is in the 9th house.....The problem is that I have 2 opposite interpretations of this position of Saturn:

- the 1st one is according to modern astrology which describes my attitude to religion and philosophy as "orthodox" and "conservative" ..

- the 2nd one tells me I'm "skeptical" and "heretic".and this according to classical astrology books.

Nasrudin, i understand your question very well.

My family inherited and passed down to the oldest child a similar astrological combination for four generations (that we know of!)

My grandfather has his Saturn at 23° Sagitarius, and my father had his Saturn at 24° Sagitarius. I have my Saturn at 22° Sagitarius on the cusp of my 8/9th house, while my son (who later died) had his Saturn at 5° Sagitarius, but his Uranus at 19° Sagitarius conjunct all of our inherited Saturns.

My grandfather was a conservative methodist church goer, but my father was an atheist and freudian psychiatrist....i don't know their exact birth times but 9th house issues have been very prominent in my family for generations.
 

Claire19

Well-known member
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Depending on your aspects elsewhere with Saturn, you are more or less rather conservative in your beliefs and morality. The 9th encompasses much more than that. It can mean you travel abroad for work rather than pleasure and often alone. Many scenarios which cant be seen without a full chart on view.
 
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Claire19

Well-known member
Also try 9th from Sun
The 12th deals more with religious issues as a form of transcendence or escape so depends on the motivation for the search for a God figure. The father belongs to the 10th house, usually. Father can be a religious figure of some sort with Saturn in the 9th. As always we need the whole chart.
 

Emerald

Well-known member
I've read it
and I think I can call myself an eye opener.

and here is another question
what 's the reference of true religion in the 9th house?
is it the father's religion?
or the "mainstream" religion?
if that's the case ..I'm already heretic :pinched:

Well, depends of the other planets inside that house or aspects that they receive, if Uranus is in bad aspect with the planets in the 9th house or with its ruler can indicate you don't deal well with institutional religion or too dogmatic blind religions.

But I see you have both Uranus in the 8th house in capricorn and Jupiter is in cancer and is opposed to saturn as the father figure (capricorn) in 9th house. The problem with the father religion can be from both this aspect and the saturn in the 9th in capricorn. Makes a lot of sense to me.

But since you are already worried about this topic and posting about it, seems to me you are indeed serious and worried (saturn) about God and religion, but many aspects in the chart reinforces the fact the answer for you about those subjects is not so clear or orthodox. :smile:
 

Claire19

Well-known member
I think the big question about Saturn in this position is going to depend on the rest of the chart. Saturn in the 9th, if dignified or received, especially if it's a day chart, can show someone with a serious, orderly approach to matters of faith and religion. It's also a good placement for someone with a scientific approach to seeking the truth.

Saturn out of sect and/or afflicted could produce just the opposite.
I agree that it lends towards a more realistic approach to matters of faith and not just religion but a general philosophy about life and morality etc. It can also be a position that engenders a fear of God as a judgemental Father type. It does depend on the aspects made elsewhere as always.
 
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