Will We Divorce?

tsmall

Premium Member
Chart with known outcome. Bonus points for going beyond yes/no, since relationship horaries are the hardest to answer. Not just for the usual reasons, but because the querents are sooo invested in the answers that they will often shoot the messenger. Which leaves the truly professional astrologer who dares take these on with the understanding that they need to answer the WHY for the yes or no.

For those of you who prefer to cast charts in your own program, the data has not been left out...So...who's up for the challenge?
 

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waybread

Well-known member
If there are children involved, I sure hope not. I got a divorce from my first husband: "train wreck" comes to mind as a metaphor for the impact it had on our two school-aged children. He and I started the separation as "friends" with joint custody, but then ended up no longer on speaking terms and with serious financial issues. One assumes that marriage counseling, a trial separation, and strongly considering what is best for the children have all been undertaken.

But I note the date on this chart: 2012! So the outcome does seem known.

This will be a more modern approach, and let's just agree that I am not contending for highest points scored.

The moon VOC actually suggests the present situation of 2012 (marriage?) is unlikely to change. Although both parties are hurting, she, perhaps less so: domiciled in Taurus in the 7th house of marriage; he, retrograde in Virgo picking up some reception, is having second thoughts. Venus and Mars (she and he) apply to a trine, with Jupiter (judge?) perhaps acting as a mediator or intermediary.

Was he cheating on her?
 

melleoscorp

Account Closed
new to horary here. I will share my finding based on my understanding of horary so far. looking forward to feedback.

Querent = Venus Spouse = Mars

Question Will we divorce

Marriage life : Mars is controlling, limiting. Venus wants closeness, romance, less restricted home life.

Not getting what she hoped for, Venus wants divorce. Venus dignity in Taurus with benefic Jupiter. Venus in strong position.
Mars applying Venus but Mars Rx holds back response, slows divorce processing (it seems Mars wants to keep Venus. Maybe for financial reason or Mars does not believe in divorce)

Moon fall in Scorpio and VoC
Moon in fixed sign succeedent house. Situation will stall for months (not sure how long but I’m guessing less than 1 year) until Moon changes sign to Sagittarius and applying Mercury (Querent's house of legal matter) making Venus stronger because someone will help speed divorce processing (Jupiter, perhaps Mars' lawyer advices Mars not to delay)

The chart was casted in March 2012. If I'm correct, by now the divorce is already granted, or at least both parties know divorce is inevitable and they just need to finalize some minor details (joint custody, if they have kids etc)
 
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DreamingTheSeas

Well-known member
Τhe question is Will We Divorce... not will I divorce. This does n't give the ascendant as the significator of the couple? And if i am right then we have to look for connection between Venus (asc) and Mercury (9th)?

(Tsmall dont get mad with me)
 

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
Hey T-small :smile:

Well, there it is, the Venus/Mars matchup. That, for me, is one of the signs that determines whether the chart is radical. Isn't it weird that just about every horary chart on a relationship ends up with those planets as significators? Granted it's a relative 17 percent chance, but it seems to occur 83 percent of the time.

Anyway . . .

Just a couple of questions: What is the position of the querent, meaning, does he or she prefer to have a divorce? Would that make him or her happier? Did the person asking the question cast the chart? I am assuming that is what is being asked. Regardless as to how the question is phrased, for me, it is the intent behind the question that matters. I kind of like to ask a few questions to attune to the question and querent, too. For me, it helps.

I'm going to look at this tonight, after I relax and have a clear mind.

By the way, the querent asked this question two years ago. Is this a test? A different opinion? Just curious . . . .
 
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tsmall

Premium Member
This will be a more modern approach, and let's just agree that I am not contending for highest points scored.

Thanks, waybread, and it isn't about highest points scored. One of the reasons I posted this chart goes back to a passion of yours...how do we handle queries on an internet forum, and why it is so important to either couch our answers with our credentials, or take more than five minutes to read the chart itself.

The moon VOC actually suggests the present situation of 2012 (marriage?) is unlikely to change.

Moon VoC is just one consideration before judgement in this chart. Do you see the other one?

Yet another reason for my posting of this chart, to show how to interpret the considerations.

Although both parties are hurting, she, perhaps less so: domiciled in Taurus in the 7th house of marriage; he, retrograde in Virgo picking up some reception, is having second thoughts.

This is interesting. Not accurate (though I'm hoping for more participation so am not going to give away the answer yet) but would you be willing to share your thought process behind it? How is Venus hurting, and why do you think it is Mars who is having second thoughts?

If it helps anyone, the querent is the female in the chart, represented by Venus, and the chart does show exactly why it is that Venus was the one asking the question/seeking to divorce.

Venus and Mars (she and he) apply to a trine, with Jupiter (judge?) perhaps acting as a mediator or intermediary.

W, go back and look at the reception in the trine. You are soo close.

Was he cheating on her?

Define "cheating" and chase that thought. ;) No, he wasn't cheating on her in the classical sense of the term.

new to horary here. I will share my finding based on my understanding of horary so far. looking forward to feedback.

Querent = Venus Spouse = Mars

Question Will we divorce

Marriage life : Mars is controlling, limiting. Venus wants closeness, romance, less restricted home life.

Not getting what she hoped for, Venus wants divorce. Venus dignity in Taurus with benefic Jupiter. Venus in strong position.
Mars applying Venus but Mars Rx holds back response, slows divorce processing (it seems Mars wants to keep Venus. Maybe for financial reason or Mars does not believe in divorce)

Moon fall in Scorpio and VoC
Moon in fixed sign succeedent house. Situation will stall for months (not sure how long but I’m guessing less than 1 year) until Moon changes sign to Sagittarius and applying Mercury (Querent's house of legal matter) making Venus stronger because someone will help speed divorce processing (Jupiter, perhaps Mars' lawyer advices Mars not to delay)


The chart was casted in March 2012. If I'm correct, by now the divorce is already granted, or at least both parties know divorce is inevitable and they just need to finalize some minor details (joint custody, if they have kids etc)

melleoscorp, I would urge you to go back and consider both reception, aspect theory, and not limit yourself to one house for Mercury. You are very, very close.

Well, there it is, the Venus/Mars matchup. That, for me, is one of the signs that determines whether the chart is radical. Isn't it weird that just about every horary chart on a relationship ends up with those planets as significators? Granted it's a relative 17 percent chance, but it seems to occur 83 percent of the time.

I was just having a conversation last night with my good friend and horary mentor...and there is actually a rhyme/reason for this in the Universe. I did the V-8 head slap, but, relationship pairs can only be Venus/Mars, Jupiter/Mercury, Sun/Saturn, and Moon/Saturn. Look at the relative speed, and weight of these planets, and you can figure out just by this where the power/favor in the relatioship falls. A terrific first place to start a relationship horary delineation.

Just a couple of questions: What is the position of the querent, meaning, does he or she prefer to have a divorce? Would that make him or her happier? Did the person asking the question cast the chart? I am assuming that is what is being asked. Regardless as to how the question is phrased, for me, it is the intent behind the question that matters. I kind of like to ask a few questions to attune to the question and querent, too. For me, it helps.

Even though it does help, you can tell the answers to these questions from the chart. However, I did just give that the op is the female/Venus. Who is the faster planet applying to L7? So, who wants the divorce?
 

Vista

Well-known member
Moon VOC and Saturn in the 1st house, chart is not fit to judge or nothing will come of it more likely.

Some of you feel the need to interpret so I will give it a go. Venus (her) in the 7th house applying to conjunction of Jupiter and trine Mars(him). Mars is retrograding backwards so mutually applying to Jupiter/Venus, Jupiter tranfers the light? Jupiter rules the 3rd house of communication; Venus is strong in her own sign and conjunct Jupiter inside the 7th, she wants to work things out. Retrograde means returning to a previous situation. No divorce.

Chart with known outcome. Bonus points for going beyond yes/no, since relationship horaries are the hardest to answer. Not just for the usual reasons, but because the querents are sooo invested in the answers that they will often shoot the messenger. Which leaves the truly professional astrologer who dares take these on with the understanding that they need to answer the WHY for the yes or no.

For those of you who prefer to cast charts in your own program, the data has not been left out...So...who's up for the challenge?
 

melleoscorp

Account Closed
melleoscorp, I would urge you to go back and consider both reception, aspect theory, and not limit yourself to one house for Mercury. You are very, very close.
thank you for feedback I will look at this again
thank you also for posting chart with result already known it's a great way to learn
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
melleoscorpio said:
new to horary here. I will share my finding based on my understanding of horary so far. looking forward to feedback.

If that post is you being new at horary and giving it a go with what you understand so far, please keep going. This is good stuff.

Vista said:
Moon VOC and Saturn in the 1st house, chart is not fit to judge or nothing will come of it more likely.

Those considerations are important, but don't use them to dismiss charts as not fit to be judged. They have their own interpretations that require fine tuning to fit into the chart.

Jupiter tranfers the light

No. Jupiter is heavier than both Mars and Venus and so can't transfer light between the two. He's not collecting it either due to the order the perfections occur. He's just frustrating the aspect between Venus and Mars with his rather large self.

tsmall said:
...or take more than five minutes to read the chart itself.

D:
 

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
For some reason, when I first read this, I thought it was an actual question and not an exercise. Anyway, here's my wrong answer. :lol: I rushed through this because I am short on time and doubt I'll have time for anything like this for the next couple of days, so just want to spit it out quickly. It's like running to buy a lotto ticket before the power ball drawing.

Anyway, here's my quick and dirty:

Answer: They will not divorce

Reasoning: Venus and Mars are the significators, and the Moon, as co-significator, is separating sinister trine to the Sun, with Moon is Scorpio and the Sun in Pisces. Venus and Mars are moving toward each other by trine, so the overall answer is yes. With the Moon in Scorpio, ruled by Mars, we can see a clear indication of emotional turmoil and a potential indication of vengeful actions on the part of the querent, whom I assume to be a woman. Venus is in the sign of Taurus, in the seventh house but the eighth sign, and Mars is in the sign of Virgo, in the eleventh house. Jupiter is impeding and will perfect before the Mars and Venus trine perfect. Jupiter is the natural significtor of marriage and benevolent, in the sign of Taurus. Venus has wonderful dignity in this chart, so it is in a place of power. Saturn in the first house simply tells me that the querent has blood on her hands, meaning she’s not an innocent party. I think she’s a probably a big spender. She’s probably casting herself as the victim in this ordeal, and she probably is because she’s conjoined to the fixed star hamal, showing some kind of abuse. She’s also on the part of debt, which I will refer to in a bit.

The quested (husband) has been having an affair, as can be seen by his being in the 11th house/5th house axis, and he’s not doing well because of his ruler, Mercury, being under the beams. His position is weak or poor to that of Venus. Venus is in the sign of her partner’s finances, which undoubtedly forced Mars into a situation of reconciliation. Mars doesn’t want to lose his money to Venus. Mars is in the house of his children, and this is a point on bargaining in the affair, and Venus wants to keep the marriage going for the sake of the children. With the imposition of Jupiter, the aspect will not perfect, and so, the parties will not divorce. Since Venus is conjoined the part of debt, Mars will do what he can to avoid an economic catastrophe, and Venus will make up with Mars for the sake of the children.

Another issue is that with Saturn in the first, the Moon is scorpio and the Sun in the fifth house, it looks like an unhealthy relationship. The woman married for money, and the man is prone to extramarital affairs, and both tend toward dishonesty.


And that is a nice little story I just wrote. This might be a good process for developing an outline for fictional short stories. Ha ha ha.

Anyway, that’s my rush job on this.

Oh, and the Moon is void of course, with strengthens that belief that they will not divorce, as stated by Jupiter’s imposition.​
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Hi tsmall--

So much in this chart depends upon the state of play of the marriage. "Will we divorce", with the VOC moon suggesting the matter is essentially resolved, reads one way if the divorce is already filed and she's just waiting for the paperwork; vs. if the couple are just in a rough patch and she hopes the marriage will succeed. With quesited Mars in the querent's 11th house of hopes and wishes for the future, I would take it that she feels the latter.

Re: considerations before judgment: I've not advanced to the level of checking planetary hours, so hopefully this isn't in play here. I assumed that the couple might be struggling, but that the querent (she?) probably didn't want a divorce if the marriage could be saved, which would usually look like hubby making some major adjustments. But actually, maybe with a divorce question the querent wants it to happen.

I'm looking at Lehman's book on horary, and she deals with considerations by quoting Lilly and Gadbury. The latter says that Saturn in the first can indicate the question is invalid, perhaps due to some type of lie in the question, or that the situation is "past all hope": but only if certain conditions apply that don't seem to be the case here. Saturn is exalted in Libra, which is a vote for the chart's radicality.

But then we run into conflicting testimonies, as he also warns against judgment with retrograde lord of the 7th, which we do see here. However, his reason seems to be that the astrologer will show up badly.

Saturn in the first here seems like a reasonable description of the situation: the prospect of ending a marriage in a deep state of disappointment. Lehman says that the "lying" possibility is tricky: I suggested the husband might be cheating, and you said, "not quite"-- Lehman mentions the Monica Lewinsky case where Bill Clinton essentially twisted the definition of a sexual relationship to suit his purposes. Perhaps hubby is sexually monogamous, but spending all his time with his pals (her 11th) or on some type of amusement (his 5th.)

Also, since Mars represents the husband, I viewed retrograde Mars as indicating that he is reconsidering his relationship with his wife (Venus.) He's got some minor dignity and is in a good house, but Venus looks so much stronger than Mars.

In natal charts, close relationships between Jupiter, Mars, and Venus can indicate polyamory-- either by the native or her spouse/partner. However, Mars in the 5th from the 7th could be his house of children as well as of love affairs. Possibly he is considering the children, if they have any.

With regard to reception in the trine, Mars picks up Venus's terms and face. I don't think he wants to finish with her.

I also considered the possibility that the wife might be cheating on the husband. If we look at her 5th house, we get a Saturn rulership, which maybe just might have come back to bite her in the first house. The sun in this house could suggest another man in her life. But with the signifier of the 7th in his own house of love affairs, I thought it more likely that hubby was up to something.

It is possible that the sun in the 5th symbolizes children in the relationship.

To say that "Venus is hurting" is my own take on divorce, but I considered Saturn in the first house, and Venus in a house that deals with divorce, litigation, and open enemies (like an estranged spouse). She is in a stronger position than Mars, however, in an angular house, domiciled, in her own terms, and conjunct Jupiter.

Another possibility is that Ms. Venus is actually planning on a stable serious relationship with another man, not just a love affair, as indicated by Sugar Daddy Jupiter conjunct her in the 7th. But then I wouldn't expect Mars to apply to a trine with Jupiter, if this were the case.

KnS raises an interesting point about Jupiter acting as a frustrator rather than a beneficial force. I just checked the ephemeris, and they all perfect on the same date! (3/14/12) I'd have to construct the chart to see how this works out in more detail. But by that point, the moon is well into the next sign.

Venus is normally the faster planet, so maybe Jupiter does represent a quick trip to the courthouse.
 

Starsign

Well-known member
Mmm... Is Jupiter a counsellor for Mars? Mars has got them into debt..through gambling (his turned 5th House)? Is this why both Venus and Mars are applying to Jupiter. They are both going through counselling! They tried to reconcile but Mars has gone back to gambling again. They will divorce.
 
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Cypocryphy

Well-known member
KnS raises an interesting point about Jupiter acting as a frustrator rather than a beneficial force. I just checked the ephemeris, and they all perfect on the same date! (3/14/12) I'd have to construct the chart to see how this works out in more detail. But by that point, the moon is well into the next sign.

Same day, but Jupiter perfects earlier in the day.

I think I should have read the other posts before I posted because I said some things that are already wrong. I saw cheating like waybread, and it seems, by the tone, that they did indeed divorce.
 
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tsmall

Premium Member
For some reason, when I first read this, I thought it was an actual question and not an exercise.

It was an actual question that was asked by an actual querent. The exercise part is because the outcome is known, which makes it a good chart for learning purposes. How do you answer negative questions like "will we divorce?" Because as in this case, you have the querent applying to a trine with the quesited, and that trine does perfect. So, does the querent get her wish? If yes, why? And if no, why not?

Anyway, here's my wrong answer. :lol: I rushed through this because I am short on time and doubt I'll have time for anything like this for the next couple of days, so just want to spit it out quickly. It's like running to buy a lotto ticket before the power ball drawing.

:lol::lol::lol: It's not a contest, Cypo. But that was funny.

I too am short on time until Saturday, when I can post the answer and the delineation. And I think the way I phrased a reply to Cypocryphy left the idea that we shouldn't ask questions. Mercury retrograde? Because one of the intentions I originally had with this chart exercise was to show why it is so important to ask questions of the querent in order to be able to accurately read the chart.

So much in this chart depends upon the state of play of the marriage. "Will we divorce", with the VOC moon suggesting the matter is essentially resolved, reads one way if the divorce is already filed and she's just waiting for the paperwork; vs. if the couple are just in a rough patch and she hopes the marriage will succeed.

Exactly right. These are the kinds of questions we need to know the answers to before we read the chart. Does the chart show it anyway? Yes. But if we are interpreting something blind, it can be easy to mistake one thing for another. The best example I can think of is...the other night I heard my daughter sobbing in another room. Knowing she has a new "boyfriend", I went rushing in expecting her to be in tears over some new middle school heart break. She was sobbing all right. With laughter over some silly thing she and a friend were texting about.

Alright, so here is the story. Once upon a time, Mars and Venus met, and Mars chased Venus hard. Venus wanted nothing to do with the idea of commitment (she had been burned before) and as a consequence Mars persued her relentlessly. Eventually, after a couple of false starts, Venus and Mars married and had two children. They had a good, financially secure life (Mars was making six figures and Venus was a stay at home Mom) and Mars continued to worship the ground she walked on.

Then, Mars lost his job in the technology bust of 2001, and decided that he wanted to persue his passion, even though it place the family in financial hardship. Venus was...resistant. Actually, Venus threw a temper tantrum but ultimately went back to work full time so Mars could follow his dream. A couple of years later, they had another baby and bought a house they were ill prepared to purchase in order for Mars to continue to follow his dream. The farther Mars followed his dream, the farther away from Venus it led him. Mars stopped paying attention to Venus, stopped worshipping the ground she walked on, and began dedicating every minute of every day to his passion. they fell farther in debt, communication was a total bust, the fighting was endless. Venus was no longer worshipped, and rather was thought of as nothing more than either another servant/employee or another obstacle for Mars to avoid or overcome, if she was thought of at all. Which made Venus very miserable for a lot of years. Until she was begging Mars for a divorce. Venus wanted the Mars she had married, not the Mars he had become. And was no longer willing to sacrifice her own happiness to continue day after day hoping he would show up again. Her thought was that it would be better to call it quits rather than continue to be in a relationship that wasn't even a shadow of what it had been. That constant hope/constant let down was too much to bear any longer. And Venus was worried that she was setting a very bad example for her three daughters of what they should expect in their own marriages.

At the time this question was asked, Venus was in no financial position to simply take the kids and leave, though she knew she could do just that if it was necessary. But, since there was no abuse (just a lack of anything a marriage should be founded on) she was having a hard time deciding what to do. She didn't want to lose her house, she didn't want to separate Mars from his children, so her efforts for a divorce would require the full cooperation of Mars.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Aha! Mars is in his turned 5th house, suggesting his avocational interests. Their respective 5th houses also come into play as symbolizing children.
 

tikana

Well-known member
I am not getting YES here

1. Saturn retro in 1st - NOPE
2. moon is void
3. there is COL Jupiter - mediator or some sort

There you go, TSmall
T
 

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
Thank you, T-small!! :smile: I'm going to come back a refine what I did. I'll try to do it before you follow-up on this.

3. there is COL Jupiter - mediator or some sort

Yeah. This is not a CoL situation, as Kaiousei stated. The reason is because Venus and Mars are in aspect. It would be a CoL if the two were not in aspect. You don't collect light for the significators when they already have it.
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Cypocryphy said:
Yeah. This is not a CoL situation, as Kaiousei stated. The reason is because Venus and Mars are in aspect. It would be a CoL if the two were not in aspect. You don't collect light for the significators when they already have it.

This is actually not true. Well, part of it.

It is true that Jupiter in this chart is frustrating the Trine between Mars and Venus and not acting as a Collector, but this is because Venus will perfect the conjunction to Jupiter and THEN complete the Trine to Mars before Mars completes his Trine to Jupiter.

If Venus passed Jupiter and then the next aspect Mars perfected was one to Jupiter, it would be a different story.

However, saying that collection can't happen if the significators are already in aspect isn't necessarily true. Bonatti gives us an example where this is the case, with the significators applying to an opposition within one degree (14° Gemini and 15° Sagittarius), but looks to a third planet who will collect the light of both (18° Aries) with more favorable aspects.

So, it seems that collection (and translation) can be effective "way outs" for difficult or impossible perfections.
 

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
This is actually not true. Well, part of it.

It is true that Jupiter in this chart is frustrating the Trine between Mars and Venus and not acting as a Collector, but this is because Venus will perfect the conjunction to Jupiter and THEN complete the Trine to Mars before Mars completes his Trine to Jupiter.

If Venus passed Jupiter and then the next aspect Mars perfected was one to Jupiter, it would be a different story.

However, saying that collection can't happen if the significators are already in aspect isn't necessarily true. Bonatti gives us an example where this is the case, with the significators applying to an opposition within one degree (14° Gemini and 15° Sagittarius), but looks to a third planet who will collect the light of both (18° Aries) with more favorable aspects.

So, it seems that collection (and translation) can be effective "way outs" for difficult or impossible perfections.

Cool! That's a good point. Thanks for the reply.

Hmmm . . . I was thinking . . . . There is one distinguishing factor between this chart and the example you gave, which is that the two significators in your example are in a disharmonious aspect, that being an opposition. And so it seems that the third planet at 18º :aries: is collecting the light to rescue the others from their oppositional plight. In this example, however, because of the trine between the two significators, Jupiter is not alleviating the situation but causes a redundancy, so to speak, if it were to operate as a collector. The principal behind the "collection of light" is to "turn a bad situation into a good one," as I understand it, and that principal is not operating in the hypothetical situation with Jupter, Mars and Venus in this chart. And in that sense, maybe it wouldn't work as a collector of light in principal or, perhaps, in fact.

What do you think?

P.S. Interestingly, the converse of this would be a trine between the significators, and a heavier planet square one and semi-square another (if you were to use that). [That is, an example of the significators in a positive relationships and the heavier planet forming negative aspects]
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Cypocryphy said:
The principal behind the "collection of light" is to "turn a bad situation into a good one," as I understand it, and that principal is not operating in the hypothetical situation with Jupter, Mars and Venus in this chart. And it that sense, maybe it wouldn't work as a collector of light in principal or, perhaps, in fact.

Taking Jupiter as a hypothetical collector? Yeah, it would have some problems. One of the big issues is that Mars doesn't receive Jupiter into any of his dignities, which would show a lack of cooperation from Mars, which would give Jupiter a harder time in perfecting the matter. Jupiter as a collector is generally a good thing, though, because of his nature.

A couple of things I wanted to mention though. Not many people have looked at the Moon's next aspect. That's always really important to consider.

Another thing is that it isn't really necessary to turn this chart, and seeing Mars as in his own Fifth house is leading down the wrong path. Mars in the 11th of hopes, dreams, and wishes is much more appropriate, as that's where Mars was focused. What that is needs to be identified.

Something else that is really helpful and I think is personally kind of cool, is that the past unity of two people can be seen by the last aspect their significators perfected. Here the last aspect Venus and Mars made was an opposition with Venus at 22° Pisces and Mars at 22° Virgo. There's a lot to unpack in that aspect and the dignities/receptions involved, which is basically summed up by this sentence:

tsmall said:
Mars stopped paying attention to Venus, stopped worshipping the ground she walked on, and began dedicating every minute of every day to his passion.

Finally, Jupiter is important at showing the "why" but to do that we're going to have to see what Jupiter signifies according to the houses he rules.
 
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