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  #1  
Unread 10-04-2019, 08:32 PM
wan wan is offline
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Peregrine planets

Hello. I remember reading this online. This astrological author was trying to rank the strength of planets. He assigned top points for domiciled and exalted planets, which is expected. However, he assigned the maximum negative points for not just planets in detriment or fall, but peregrine planets as well. This puzzled me. I can see giving a low score for detriment and fall, but what's wrong with peregrine? Sure they are not dignified, but they are not in a really bad position, either.

Do you agree with this author? What is your thought on the strength of peregrine planets?

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Unread 10-05-2019, 05:01 AM
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Re: Peregrine planets

Are you familiar with the table of essential dignities? I use Ptolemy's but there are other systems out there involving the planets' terms.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/essential_dignities.html

Basically it's not just a matter of domicile/detriment and exaltation/ fall, but we look at whether a planet is in its own triplicity, terms, or face. A peregrine planet is in none of these essential dignities. It is like being a stranger in a foreign country, with no rights or entitlements.

A peregrine planet is not necessarily helpless. It may pick up some "accidental" dignity by house, aspects, or mutual reception. But this would be judged on a case-by-case basis. In contrast, an essential dignity like a planet in its own sign or terms would always carry that essential dignity.

For example, suppose Mercury is peregrine in Cancer. But it is in the first house (angular,) trine Jupiter (beneficial) and in mutual reception with the moon in Gemini. These accidental dignities can strengthen it.
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Unread 10-05-2019, 12:50 PM
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Re: Peregrine planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by wan View Post

Hello. I remember reading this online. This astrological author was trying to rank the strength of planets. He assigned top points for domiciled and exalted planets, which is expected. However, he assigned the maximum negative points for not just planets in detriment or fall, but peregrine planets as well. This puzzled me. I can see giving a low score for detriment and fall, but what's wrong with peregrine? Sure they are not dignified, but they are not in a really bad position, either.

Do you agree with this author? What is your thought on the strength of peregrine planets?
dr.farr made some useful comment on this issue
on a number of threads on this forum
including for example at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=51796
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

I would like to add that in earlier astrology
the peregrine concept meant that a planet had neither + NOR - essential dignities in its place;
later (around the late 12th/early 13th centuries AD)
this concept changed, so that for the past 800 years
peregrine means no + essential dignities, but
the planet can have essential debilities and still be considered peregrine
(the doctrine states "detriment does not save from peregrine");

so in my opinion the meaning of peregrine changed,

from a planet simply being a wanderer with no + or - connections
(no essential dignities OR debilities)
to a planet with no essential + connections (no essential dignities)
but which COULD have essential detriments (essential debilities)
-therefore, with this concept,
I can see why Traditionalists would generally consider a peregrine planet "worse off"
than detrimented
-there are at least connections with a detrimented planet
with this peregrine concept there are either no connections at all,
or if there are any
these would be detrimented/debilitating in nature.
...however, as I have stated earlier
I do not accept (for me at least)
the current (past 800 years!) peregrine concept, as valid.. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post

....I recall reading that the earlier (Greek) astrologers didn't have detriment (or peregrine) as part of their consideration, and that it was a later "invention" in horoscopic astrology. dr. farr, perhaps you would know if this is the case?

In my (early learning and so likely to be proved incorrect) opinion, one concern or issue with trying to learn traditional methods is that we tend to want to conflate them with modern/psychological ideas. Which means that we fall into the trap of equating dignity/debility in the chart with how those planets are expressed in the native's character and personality, his/her psychology, when the real use of these was to determine a planet's ablility to operate or act over the areas of life they rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ82 View Post
JupiterASC, I didn't think my sun made an aspect to jupiter in my chart, or are you saying that because my sun is in pisces and jupiter the traditional ruler that it supports it naturally? I don't fully understand what you meant by "in the face of" or where this "trine" is that you mention. I think I am missing something and this is astrology one level up from what I know
The essential dignities are:

(1) Domicile i.e. a planet in own sign
OR in mutual reception with another planet by sign
(2) Exaltation i.e. in exaltation

OR in mutual reception by exaltation

(3) Triplicity

(4) Term

(5) Face

Therefore, 'in the face of' means that a planet is essentially dignified

because of being located 'in the essential dignity face of' another planet
- planets make aspects by sign as well as degree
'peregrine' means a planet with no essential dignity
even if it has major aspects
BECAUSE
mutual reception by sign and/or exaltation is an essential dignity dependent upon aspect
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post

I got to thinking more about this yesterday, so I read the links you gave and found another one.

http://hniizato.com/2011/10/interpre...e-planet/.html

It looks like Noel Tyl wrote about unaspected planets and is the one who conscripted an astrological term, already in use (peregrine) and gave it a new definition.
What he writes about used to be, and still is traditionally, called feral or wild planets.
What Peregrine Moon wrote about the person she knew who had Mercury cazimi and making no other aspects would fall better into the second definition of peregrine.


I spent a good deal of time exploring the topic of unaspected planets and what they might mean traditionally last spring, because one of my daughters does have an unaspected Sun.

So, traditional until about 20 years ago definition of peregrine means a planet with no essential dignity where it is, and Noel Tyl's redefinition of the word to mean a planet with no major aspect.

In the case of the second, unaspected definition, I agree with Peregrine Moon. None of your planets look peregrine that way.
tsmall, thanks for clarifying the peregrine versus feral definition issue. I would agree that:

(1) 'peregrine' simply meant - and still means for nearly two thousand years now
- a planet with no essential dignity where it is

(2) and that relatively recently
Noel Tyl gave 'feral planets' a makeover
by re-christening planets previously regarded as 'feral' as instead 'peregrine'
.....thus popularising a notion that 'peregrine' included unaspected planets.

(3) Traditionally, anaspected planets are 'feral' RATHER THAN Peregrine
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post

The first, original definition of peregrine
as a planet lacking essential dignity
is what I think JUPITERASC is referring to here


Exactly
- the original definition of peregrine as meaning simpl
y a planet lacking essential dignity where it is located
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post

...That has nothing to do with the aspects at all
and only refers to rulership.
Domicile and exaltation are pretty familiar to most students.
Face or decans/decanates is also pretty familiar as the three subdivisions of each sign.
Terms are just a further subdivision of the signs
giving another dimension of rulership to each sign.
There is an excellent tutorial at skyscript about the essential dignities here
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html
.....the peregrine state was used
not to describe how a planet would manifest in your personality
but rather
how a planet would be able to rule/actually affect the matters that it rules
what this means is that a planet is homeless/without resources of its own
and so needs to get those from somewhere.
Thanks for that great explanation tsmall - there's more info at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig3.html
where the following 100 word descriptive extract
of the meaning of a planet in its own terms is sourced from:

QUOTE:

A planet in its own terms is recognized
as being in a situation of temporary strength
even though it may not otherwise be suited to the sign it occupies. e.g.
Saturn is in detriment in Leo
BUT in the first 6 degrees is in its own terms
so this overall condition of weakness is somewhat alleviated.
Ezra calls such a planet: "like a man in his seat".
We could compare the situation to someone renting or owning a holiday villa abroad.
The country may be generally unfamiliar
but there is a sense of security when surrounded by one's own possessions
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  #4  
Unread 10-06-2019, 02:03 AM
wan wan is offline
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Re: Peregrine planets

I see. Very interesting and informative, Waybread. Thanks for sharing.
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Unread 10-29-2019, 01:30 AM
AJ Astrology AJ Astrology is offline
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Re: Peregrine planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by wan View Post
Hello. I remember reading this online. This astrological author was trying to rank the strength of planets. He assigned top points for domiciled and exalted planets, which is expected. However, he assigned the maximum negative points for not just planets in detriment or fall, but peregrine planets as well. This puzzled me. I can see giving a low score for detriment and fall, but what's wrong with peregrine? Sure they are not dignified, but they are not in a really bad position, either.

Do you agree with this author? What is your thought on the strength of peregrine planets?
Hi wan,

Point/scoring systems are artificially contrived nonsense that results in you doing a lot of work for nothing and they are totally unnecessary. For any chart whether it's natal, mundane, horary, profection or other predictive astrology, you have questions you want answered.

For every question there is a planet, sign and house that is the significator for that question. Examining those significators is how you render judgment, and that doesn't require any kind of point/scoring system.

Ibn-Ezra says a peregrine planet is like one in another country.

If you woke up in Mother Russia tomorrow morning, how would you feel? Probably disoriented and very uncomfortable. That's peregrine in a nutshell, but planets don't exist in a vacuum.

Is this peregrine planet void of course? Because that would be like being uncomfortable and wandering aimlessly with no purpose.

If that planet was the significator of relationships or marriage, how would you judge?

This peregrine planet is either male or female, and it is either above the horizon in the day where it's supposed to be or if female below the horizon at night where it should be, and if not then that changes the equation.

If it's a male planet below the horizon during day, but in a masculine sign and degree, it's not a total disaster. Signs and degrees are both masculine and feminine.

There's a difference between being uncomfortable in a good/positive way and being uncomfortable in a bad/negative way.

Is this peregriine planet in aspect? If so, is there reception?

Did it recently separate from a planet? Which one, a benefic or malefic? Is it applying to a benefic or malefic?

Is a lighter planet transferring light?

Being uncomfortable can motivate people to change for the better, or worse, and the condition of the planet will tell you which way it goes and you don't need a point/scoring system for that.

Suppose this peregrine planet significated wealth or finances. If it's in a good condition, then where ever they started in life they'll end up somewhat better off, but not without struggle or effort, but if the condition is bad, then they'll end up somewhat worse off and struggle the whole time.
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Unread 10-29-2019, 03:57 AM
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Re: Peregrine planets

Someone who actually reads the planets? Preposterous.

The olde astrologers were meticulous in their choice of descriptors for the different conditions: the "Fixed" quality, the "Elevated" planet, "peregrine".

The word comes from Latin words whose ultimate meaning is "passing through a land". Peregrine is closely related etymologically to "pilgrim". It implies a "foreigner" or "wanderer". It may imply (as AJ points out) a pilgrimage of some sort, a mission.

It does not "speak the language" of its surroundings. Its actions may be suspect, even if innocent. On the one hand it stands out, on the other tends to stay to itself. It's out of place. Perhaps dependent on others for support and protection, and may stir up opposition. If on a mission, a sense of being driven; likewise if persecuted.

Imagination. What's it like to live as a foreigner, a wanderer, an immigrant...a stranger in a strange land? Just "passing through."

Old song, "Wayfaring Stranger"
"I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger while passing through this world of woe,
But where I'm bound ain't no toil nor danger in that fair land to which I go."

Last edited by greybeard; 10-29-2019 at 04:10 AM.
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Unread 10-29-2019, 03:48 PM
wan wan is offline
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Re: Peregrine planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
Hi wan,

Point/scoring systems are artificially contrived nonsense that results in you doing a lot of work for nothing and they are totally unnecessary. For any chart whether it's natal, mundane, horary, profection or other predictive astrology, you have questions you want answered.

For every question there is a planet, sign and house that is the significator for that question. Examining those significators is how you render judgment, and that doesn't require any kind of point/scoring system.

Ibn-Ezra says a peregrine planet is like one in another country.

If you woke up in Mother Russia tomorrow morning, how would you feel? Probably disoriented and very uncomfortable. That's peregrine in a nutshell, but planets don't exist in a vacuum.

Is this peregrine planet void of course? Because that would be like being uncomfortable and wandering aimlessly with no purpose.

If that planet was the significator of relationships or marriage, how would you judge?

This peregrine planet is either male or female, and it is either above the horizon in the day where it's supposed to be or if female below the horizon at night where it should be, and if not then that changes the equation.

If it's a male planet below the horizon during day, but in a masculine sign and degree, it's not a total disaster. Signs and degrees are both masculine and feminine.

There's a difference between being uncomfortable in a good/positive way and being uncomfortable in a bad/negative way.

Is this peregriine planet in aspect? If so, is there reception?

Did it recently separate from a planet? Which one, a benefic or malefic? Is it applying to a benefic or malefic?

Is a lighter planet transferring light?

Being uncomfortable can motivate people to change for the better, or worse, and the condition of the planet will tell you which way it goes and you don't need a point/scoring system for that.

Suppose this peregrine planet significated wealth or finances. If it's in a good condition, then where ever they started in life they'll end up somewhat better off, but not without struggle or effort, but if the condition is bad, then they'll end up somewhat worse off and struggle the whole time.
Hi Aj,

Thanks for sharing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Someone who actually reads the planets? Preposterous.

The olde astrologers were meticulous in their choice of descriptors for the different conditions: the "Fixed" quality, the "Elevated" planet, "peregrine".

The word comes from Latin words whose ultimate meaning is "passing through a land". Peregrine is closely related etymologically to "pilgrim". It implies a "foreigner" or "wanderer". It may imply (as AJ points out) a pilgrimage of some sort, a mission.

It does not "speak the language" of its surroundings. Its actions may be suspect, even if innocent. On the one hand it stands out, on the other tends to stay to itself. It's out of place. Perhaps dependent on others for support and protection, and may stir up opposition. If on a mission, a sense of being driven; likewise if persecuted.

Imagination. What's it like to live as a foreigner, a wanderer, an immigrant...a stranger in a strange land? Just "passing through."

Old song, "Wayfaring Stranger"
"I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger while passing through this world of woe,
But where I'm bound ain't no toil nor danger in that fair land to which I go."
Greybeard:

Thank you for the insight.
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