Sun and Moon opposition in romantice horary

My question has to do with a romantic horary I just cast. The question was "will I find real romantic love before I die?" I tnink the answer was no because, although there was some reception by both significators, there was no aspect. Anyway, I did notice one thing that puzzled me. Lord 7 was the moon in Sagitarius in the 11th house. It is coming to an opposition in a few degrees to the sun in the 5th house, bu the sun is not a significator. Well, only traditionally, as a secondary significator of the male in a romantic horary.My question is, in general an opposition is a poor omen, one of coming together but more or less regretting it. When it involves the lumenaries like this, one in Lord 7's turned 5th house, and one in Lord 1's 5th house, how should this be interpreted? Does it have some especially dire meaning overall?

Hi Lakewind.

The reception without an aspect can still indicate a yes answer depending on the strength of the generosity and the overall feel of the chart, so don't give up just yet!

The Sun/Moon opposition is generally negative in horary as it indicates a lot of stress in the matter. Also, you only take the Sun as a secondary significator of a man if you take Venus to be the secondary significator of a woman and compare them only with one another in the context of their synodic cycle. Basically, the Moon/Sun opposition doesn't meany anything specifically to the chart because we're not looking for Sun/Moon contacts unless Leo is on the Seventh.

Hope this answered some of your questions.

Helpful, thanks.

Lakewind said:

...... My question is, in general an opposition is a poor omen, one of coming together but more or less regretting it. When it involves the lumenaries like this, one in Lord 7's turned 5th house, and one in Lord 1's 5th house, how should this be interpreted? Does it have some especially dire meaning overall?

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Yes, in general, an opposition is a poor omen, as you say. But an opposition with strong reception could nevertheless "bring the matter to perfection ... even if it were with difficulty and anxiety and the greatest labour ..." as Bonatti says.

Don't forget, there's also transference of light or collection of light between the planets to bring about perfection. But I reckon it's important to consider the levels of 'perfection' - or things coming to pass: some things are easily achieved, sometimes with difficulty, sometimes in part, sometimes wholly.

And there's the Part of Marriage and its dispositor. Where were these in the chart?

As to the 5th House you mentioned - 7 ruler's 5th as well as 1 ruler's 5th - well, to me this seems too much of a coincidence to pass up - as this is the house of love affairs and romance (as well as children) and is generally thought of as a benefic House. Nothing dire about it, generally.

One other thing, the "future" you're talking about could be quite a long time and I'd suggest that maybe you could ask such a question again in say 12 months' time and put a time frame on it then - eg Will I meet my life partner in the next 12 months? Something like that.
Cheers____

Aquarius358 said:

As to the 5th House you mentioned - 7 ruler's 5th as well as 1 ruler's 5th - well, to me this seems too much of a coincidence to pass up - as this is the house of love affairs and romance (as well as children) and is generally thought of as a benefic House. Nothing dire about it, generally.

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I wouldn't recommend getting caught up in that trap. The fifth house isn't really relevant in these kinds of questions, and when it does become prominent it usually results in a negative answer as it shows someone who is more interested in sex, flings, and casual relationships.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

I wouldn't recommend getting caught up in that trap. The fifth house isn't really relevant in these kinds of questions, and when it does become prominent it usually results in a negative answer as it shows someone who is more interested in sex, flings, and casual relationships.

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No, no. Not at all.

I must seriously question your perception/judgment of my having been negligent enough to have been "caught up in a trap." My interpretation was quite deliberately done as I wanted to answer Lakewind's question about the 5th House location of the main significators and I wanted to reassure her that this didn't necessarily mean anything "dire."

My reply to Lakewind is backed by Deb Houlding's "Temples of the Sky" -

"5th House: Main Rulerships : Children ... romance, love affairs, lovemaking, procreation and conception. If afflicted, [my emphasis] promiscuity, sexual inhibition [its opposite], immorality, overindulgence and scandals. Pleasure, gifts and all pleasant things ... "

So, I think she's right to consider their location as particularly pertinent, especially since her question was about "romantic love." I don't know if 5 ruler or 11 ruler are badly afflicted in her chart but, if not, then I'd say that at least one thing the chart was confirming was a possibility of "romantic love" in the future. Whether or not the affair that begins as a romantic affair becomes a marriage would depend on other factors in the chart._________

I didn't say you were caught up in a trap, I said don't get caught up in it.

Yes, the fifth house can show those things, but that isn't what her question is about. Also, you'll notice that further down, the site lists the more normal significations of the fifth house in horary.

The Fifth house is not a person unless it is a child and when it comes to romance horaries it's much more technically sound to focus on the first and seventh ruler. The fifth rulers interacting don't mean anything unless there are children involved. You will not find a love horary in all of Christian Astrology which makes use of the fifth house in any meaningful way unless it has some derivative significance.

The idea that the fifth house can be important in romance horaries stems from the modern association of it as the "casual relationships" significant of boyfriends/girlfriends or partners who were are not in a committed relationship with. So yes, getting used to considering the fifth house in relationship horaries is a modern trap.

I say all that not necessarily to you, but in general to anyone reading the thread.

I think Lakewind's original focus on the Sun/Moon opposition is a bit overplayed and maybe too negative. If the Moon (as lord of the 7th house) is applying an opposition to the Sun, isn't the Sun's next aspect a mutually applying Trine to Saturn? Or is this chart cast earlier than I'm thinking.

I am going through some older charts in my file so I have to make this comment:sun-moon opposition is generally considered a bad aspect in horary. But, every chart is unique and I think this should be emphasised. So you have to see in each chart if the Moon has essential + accidental dignities, house placement etc. This could seriously effect the outcome of the question asked.
Just for the record, I found one chart only with Sun-Moon opposition (where Moon was my co-significator but Sun wasn't involved) that had a positive result. I had asked if I would meet someone over the weekend (who I hadn't seen for a year) and I actually did. So, pay close attention to strength of the Moon and all other significators in each chart.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

I didn't say you were caught up in a trap, I said don't get caught up in it.

Your response used my quote to make this admonition so I (reasonably) felt I had the right to reply to your mis-perception. In your view, generally speaking, it's a trap. However, in my view, in particular relation to this theoretical query, it's not a trap. It's relevant.

I wasn't suggesting using 5 ruler - certainly 5 ruler is not used in relationship horaries - it's 7 ruler. But the fact is that Lakewind noted that both 1 ruler and 7 rulers were IN their respective 5th Houses. That's what "caught" my attention and why I replied to Lakewind as I did.

I believe the House location of the 2 major significators IS something that should be looked at - not just here, but in any horary.

Yes, the fifth house can show those things, but that isn't what her question is about. ...

Yes it was (as I read it, anyway.) In part. She asked if there was anything "dire" about the 5th House location - and that's what I was answering. It's not generally considered to be a malefic House.
...

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Only Lakewind can clarify if she was asking if there was anything "dire" about the location of 1 and 7 rulers in the 5th House. If that's not what you were asking about, Lakewind - my apologies.

And I now hope my point about the LOCATION of main signifiers and the use of House rulers as signifiers is clearer._____

Don't argue, guys. You are both knwledgeable. Yes, I was afraid it was dire. Because the whole relationship was dire, and I shouldn't be obsessing about it. The only good thing about my obsession is I am returning to study the art of horary. Thanks, both.

Hi,

A piece of advice: when you consider relationship matters, no matter what stage the querent is in with the other person (of interest), always consider the 7th house.

If you consider the 5th house, then the question in love matters can only be about: will I sleep with the other person? or will I have a fling/ a one-night stand with the other person. 5th house is nothing more than that.

AQ7

Hi, everyone.

I have actually recently been informed about the outcome of a relationship horary that i cast last spring. The Luminaries were not the rulers of the relevant houses however, the Moon had just started separating from the Sun at the time of the Question (a very tiny orb of separation, only a few minutes - a partile separating aspect, sort of speaking).
The Querent and the Quesited did start a relationship soon after the Question was asked - the Querent didn't really question the possibility of the two of them becoming engaged in a relationship but she was actually curious to find out as to how well they could "co-operate" (in her own words. She had just recently met him and wasn't sure if she was jumping into a relationship too soon.
The relationship, unfortunately, ended a month ago and I the Querent was kind enough to answer a few of my questions about the nature of their relationship which helped me to get a better understanding of the opposition. Unfortunately, again, most of my assumptions were correct.

The Moon is the co-ruler of the Question (and the Querent's co-ruler for that matter) and its influence on the chart is always huge. It usually pinpoints the area of the biggest importance, it often reveals the underlying questions and, most importantly, it tells us a lot about the future events.
The relationship born under such an influence will surely have to undergo certain troubles. In his 5th consideration for better judgement (LIBER ASTRONOMIAE ,Treatise V), Bonatti says:

The 3rd is when she is posited in any of the combust degrees, of which the worst are: those 12 degrees which are before the degree which is directly opposite to the degree in which the Sun is, wherever she shall happen to be,

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so, obviously, this could even be seen as a warning against judgement.

The effects of the opposition between the luminaries can sometimes look almost trivial- based on my personal "statistics", about 99% of people who have a Sun/Moon opposition between the luminaries in their Natal chart are struggling with some sort of vision problems (the strength of the planets and their placement will tell as to how big the problems are). This is actually quite logical- two luminaries in an aspect equals the optics.

Something similar can be noticed in Horary and event charts although, in most cases, the "optical" problem should be translated into the most appropriate symbolical meaning. Whilst the Sun/Moon conjunction is a bad omen as the Moon is combust, its symbolical meaning is actually that the Moon is blinded and that certain things might remain a secret in a relationship. in electional astrology that would be a good time to start a secret business but hardly a new relationship. When the two luminaries are brought together into a benevolent aspect, we could say that the Sun is bathing the Moon with his warmth or casting light in front of the Moon thus, helping her to find the way.
It is obvious that an opposition looks more like a trouble than a well balanced relationship. The Sun wants to move forward whilst the Moon tends to go go backwards and cannot leave the past alone very easily. Unfortunately, that was the case with the couple from the chart mentioned earlier. With the opposition taking place across the 4th/10th axis, the partner turned out to be overly attached to his parents (and, yet, their relationship was not warm either) and suffering from many traumas "caught" in his early childhood. in addition, according to the Querent, his longest past relationship is constantly haunting him although it has been almost 10 years since his ex girlfriend left him. He doesn't want her back- he wants a revenge. After a while, the Querent could not handle the stress any more and she left him. She wanted a future with him but she was unable to get him out of his own past.

Cheers,

aglaya

aquarius7000 said:

Hi,

A piece of advice: when you consider relationship matters, no matter what stage the querent is in with the other person (of interest), always consider the 7th house.

If you consider the 5th house, then the question in love matters can only be about: will I sleep with the other person? or will I have a fling/ a one-night stand with the other person. 5th house is nothing more than that.

AQ7

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Agreed.
I would even go as far as to say that the second party is always the 7th, no matter what we intend to do with her/him ( ) . Personally, i would use the 5th only as the house of sexual activities and see as to how strongly it is influencing the chart. If the question is "Will my sexual life blossom?" - yes, i would examine the 5th but, as long as there is a specific party involved, I would assign the 7th to them.
On the other hand, should I find the ruler of the Quesited inside the 5th in a romantic question, I would assume that the intentions of the 2nd party are potentially superficial (or shallow or, sexual if you like).

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

Hi Lakewind.

The reception without an aspect can still indicate a yes answer depending on the strength of the generosity and the overall feel of the chart, so don't give up just yet!

The Sun/Moon opposition is generally negative in horary as it indicates a lot of stress in the matter. Also, you only take the Sun as a secondary significator of a man if you take Venus to be the secondary significator of a woman and compare them only with one another in the context of their synodic cycle. Basically, the Moon/Sun opposition doesn't meany anything specifically to the chart because we're not looking for Sun/Moon contacts unless Leo is on the Seventh.

Hope this answered some of your questions.

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I dont think the sun and venus being exclusive to each other simply because of their synodic cycle is quite true. I remember seeing an articile by Deb, so is the idea from her? I have to confess Im even a little irritated here, as it seems that that at times there is an imbalance in astrology between abstract thought and simply being pragmatic and observing what works. Debs theory of Venuses cycle of the sun is beautiful and poetic. She likewise makes many good theoretical points. But this is what they are....theoretical and not down to earth. That venus has a synodic cycle to the sun does not mean they are exclusive to other planets in Horary.

Personally I have seen charts where the sun and venus have shown actual timing of matters. One striking example would be the antiscia example in Frawleys Horary Textbook. The question asked was when the querent, would receive a call, from a guy who did not call for a while. The only aspect was the moon to the sun by antiscion by a degree and a half. That was the judgement...in a month in a half she would here from him. Note that in the chart its the moon that is in aspect, not venus.

The sun and Venus DO seem to bear meaning on sexual attraction as well. Actually I feel they tend to be more relavant in more superficial questions involving relations. Frequently in romance questions, especially the ones asked about superficial relations in which the two have just meant, and the quesited is not as attracted to the querent, nor is as interested in moving the relation forward; seem to involve either the moon,venus,or mercury for the significator of the querent and a heavier planet for the person asked about. Frequently these significators are combust the sun, (when the querent is female) and quite often they are in the querents 5th house often very close to the cusp.

Whats more, when these questions are asked, the more superficial questions often do not involve any connection between the main significators to each other at all, but often one of the main significators will be in aspect to the sun or venus. Usually if its a woman her main significator will be in aspect and reception to the sun and vice versa with a male. His main significator with venus. Most of these examples had no signifcant connection between the sun and venus. Obviously these people were attracted to the person or they wouldent have asked. No amount of abstract though can counter that!

Likewise, as I have said, I have observed timing, and perfection to boot, with the sun and venus being exclusive from each other, but in aspect to the main significators. The results dont lie.

EDIT: Venus and the Sun in RELATIONSHIPS. I add this just to be clear.

aglaya said:

Agreed.
I would even go as far as to say that the second party is always the 7th, no matter what we intend to do with her/him ( ) . Personally, i would use the 5th only as the house of sexual activities and see as to how strongly it is influencing the chart. If the question is "Will my sexual life blossom?" - yes, i would examine the 5th but, as long as there is a specific party involved, I would assign the 7th to them.
On the other hand, should I find the ruler of the Quesited inside the 5th in a romantic question, I would assume that the intentions of the 2nd party are potentially superficial (or shallow or, sexual if you like).

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Yes but this could be read as serious, in relations in which people have been together for a while right? Suppose two people have been in a relationship for some years which has lately beagn to suffer and the querent wanted to know why the husband (or wife) was pulling away? If there was an emphasis on the 5th house, particulary his, showing the sex life suffering this would seem pretty important.

Tyler,

The Sun and Venus being tertiary significators is pretty telling of their role in these types of questions anyway. You aren't going to gain much information from them, and I would be very hesitant to judge anything based off of their positions. Yes, this is a technique that Frawley is very fond of (which immediately makes me suspicious of it), but as I checked through Lilly a few moments ago, he only talks about these two applying to one another or the Moon applying to them not, say, L1 applying to the Sun. Unfortunately I also checked his examples and he didn't mention the relationship between the Sun and Venus in either one. If it works for you, great, but it's not a technique that's done well for me.

If you dont use it and do not believe in it then thats fine, I cant force you to my way of thinking. My lasy post was a bit hostile and I apologize. It was a bad day.

I wouldent write it off because you dont like Frawley though. Frawley endorsing their use is not sufficient grounds for writing it off, but your personal experiences are, so I repect that if its so. He's a good astrologer even if he does reverse reception, and even Deb and Tanit among others has stated that the sun and venus can signify the more sexual aspects. But again you can only go by your own experience.

EDIT:LAST not lazy.

It's not just my inherent skepticism for Frawley, it's that this particular technique isn't discussed much. I also decided to give a look through Bonatti and I couldn't even find him assigning the Sun and Venus as significators in his chapters on the Seventh house and marriage. I may have overlooked it, I'll put more effort into this later.

In Prof Dykes' translation of Bonatti's Book of Astronomy, Treatise 6, Chapter 3 : 'How they will act together' (regarding relationships and 7th House matters) :

"... Likewise if the Sun were impeded, the condition of the man is made weaker. If indeed Venus were impeded, it impedes and weakens the condition of the woman."

He goes on ... "If however the Moon were impeded, it will signify the impediment and worsening of the man and woman."

This chapter is talking about them getting on together (or not.)

Then again in Chapter 8 : 'Whether a woman who has left or was expelled from the home would return or not" Bonatti says (in Dykes' translation) there is mention of the Sun for man and Venus for the woman' he writes:

"And if the Sun were below the earth and Venus were above the earth, and she likewise aspected the ascendant by a praiseworthy aspect, the woman will return to the home but with obstacles and delay and complications ..." - again, Sun signifying the male and Venus the woman.

Then later on ... "Moreover, see if Venus were occidental and retrograde, returning toward the Sun: the woman will return to the home of her own accord, and by her own will, fearing lest her husband vex her and punish her for having vanished. If indeed Venus were retrograde, and she were already appearing from under the rays of the Sun, the man will regret having expelled the woman from the house and he will rejoice over her return ..."

All of these references justify the use of Venus as general (or secondary) significator of women and the Sun as general (or secondary) significator of men. But as was mentioned above by Lakewind, the rest of the chart, the locations, what planets are 1 and 7 ruler all play an important part.

It seems to me that judgments about people in a relationship or about to have a relationship or yearning to have a relationship can do no harm by having a look at what Venus is doing and what Sun is doing (as well as Moon and main signifiers, of course.)

Frawley, of course, writes in an entirely different style - much more simply than Bonatti - noting:
1. Querent gets Lord 1 and the Moon.
2. Person asked about gets Lord 7.
3. Whether they are querent or quesited, the man gets the Sun and the woman gets Venus - UNLESS they have already been claimed under points 1 and 2 above.

Succinct and very clear - and backed up by Bonatti.

I'll have a look to see if there are any other early writers who note the use of Sun & Venus, just out of interest. ___

Haha, you are quite right. I read chapters one and two and when I didn't see either planet noted there I just shrugged my shoulders and moved on (for those unfamiliar, those are the chapters of if a marriage should be perfected, and if not, what impedes it). It seems it did get some usage, even if limited.

Aquarius358 said:

Then later on ... "Moreover, see if Venus were occidental and retrograde, returning toward the Sun: the woman will return to the home of her own accord, and by her own will, fearing lest her husband vex her and punish her for having vanished. If indeed Venus were retrograde, and she were already appearing from under the rays of the Sun, the man will regret having expelled the woman from the house and he will rejoice over her return ..."

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This part I'm particularly happy to see, because it echoes what I mentioned earlier about the Sun and Venus being used together to signify something depending on what phase of their synodic cycle they are in at the time.

Thank you, Aquarius358, for taking the time to double check me. I have a gap in my horary texts that I intend to remedy soon, so I would be most interested in seeing what you find from the Arabians and Persians if you decide to devote the time to digging that up.