Limitations, Guidelines for Astrology/Newcomers

waybread

Well-known member
I greatly appreciate all the effort that Astrologer50 has put into this "welcome", but I do not see astrology as a form of psychology. Nor would most licensed psychologists see astrology as a branch of their discipline, although a few would.

Astrology pre-dated psychology by millennia, and will no doubt persist after psychology has morphed into something else. Mundane astrology (earthquakes, tsunamis) or weather prediction may not even require human actors.

Also astrology does very much does speak the language of outer, concrete events, just not the language of events that are not 100% predictable; and of some types of events, not at all.

Nor does astrology require "poignancy" in its questions.

It is great to tell people about different house systems, but why personalize the "welcome" to prefer one house system or "modern" astrology? If this is to be a generic "welcome" why refer to Astrologer50 in the first person at all?

I will take this up with the moderators on our board, if one of us hasn't done so already.

Ultimately I am not sure what this "welcome" accomplishes beyond the Forum rules.
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Because it's not a good idea and if you're going to write something that "newbies" are going to automatically jump on, you're going to write it the right way. Being inclusive and non-biased with no personal plugs.

:)

And gee, I'm pretty sure criticism is what writing and astrology is based on. It's just I'm choosing "destructive" criticism since I feel it was put together very poorly.
 

RayAustin

Well-known member
charmvirgo said:
Why are people so angry with astrologer50 that they do not see what is basically a good idea and cannot contribute anything except criticism. It does not make a creative mood.

Charm, no one is angry. Because we disagree we are angry? No. We have been contributing more than just criticism; we have specified reasons why, Charm. No one has said, I don't like it and that is it, without specifying their concerns.

Ray.:)
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
The key word appears to be *Limitations*-in the screed and in the thread discussing it.
Personally I don't feel as if I was part of any process that *chose* astrologer50 to write a screed on behalf of the Forum-to my knowledge this is not the usual practice at all.In fact the whole matter has arisen from astrologer50's own personal dissatisfaction of how we *do things here*.

The positive factor to emerge is is that yes, there is a need for some kind of guideline to go on the Greenhorns Lounge.We can thank Astro50 for getting that on the road.

However,I don't feel what has been written is adequate, and I've explained in detail, why.
In a *put up or shut up* capacity I wrote an alternative, but now it seems that we are limited to only working with the original. Where does that leave this discussion?
Just because someone has an idea doesn't mean we all have to rush to embrace it.Maybe it does.
It's apparent that any criticism of the original is now going to be met with cries of protest, and perceived as being *personal*.
Limitations. And on the very day that Saturn and Uranus go head to head again.:)
Lillyjgc
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
The positive factor to emerge is is that yes, there is a need for some kind of guideline to go on the Greenhorns Lounge.We can thank Astro50 for getting that on the road.

Do you really think it's that necessary, though? I mean, really?
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
In all fairness yes, I think we do need *some* kind of Guideline. There does seem to be confusion amongst newbies as to what can and can't be posted in Greenhorn's etc and we have to assume that some of these members will have no knowledge whatsoever about Astrology when they sign up.Some will-they can skip that Sticky!
Radu has written a general welcome at the start of AW and I posted that up on the original thread to remind us that already we have an official welcome.Whether we need another welcome in Greenhorns is disputable but a guideline of some kind may help clarify what we are about here.I can't see it would do any harm anyway.
The issue still remains: What do we want it to say?
Astrologer50 made it very clear that her post was a *starting point* so I don't understand why anyone should be upset by us now discussing *what to change*.
I agree with Kai that one person should be assigned to write it (in collaboration with a Moderator.)It would be far simpler.I don't see any need for all of the membership to have input. Its unworkable in a practical sense.
Lillyjgc
 

rogue_red

Well-known member
Astrologer50. Thankyou so much for the effort you have put in to this starting point in developing an appropriate welcome for the greenhorns lounge.
I am a little concerned about the use of copyright text in your post though. It needs to be wrapped in quotes and have the authors name attatched to avoid any problems with plagiarism.
I think you have tried really hard to provide a broad and tactful approach to the issue.

Rogue red
 

waybread

Well-known member
I feel very passionate about astrology. I derive a lot of enjoyment from it. But writing a description that sets arbitrary limits on the actual compass of the field in order to address what I see as a fairly minor problem (repititious gaffes by newbies) is of questionable service to astrology, IMO.
 

rogue_red

Well-known member
waybread said:
I feel very passionate about astrology. I derive a lot of enjoyment from it. But writing a description that sets arbitrary limits on the actual compass of the field in order to address what I see as a fairly minor problem (repititious gaffes by newbies) is of questionable service to astrology, IMO.

Actually I agree with you waybread. I really liked Gaer's response where he said its the quality of the answers rather than the questions themselves that are important. (apologies for poor paraphrasing)
I respect that astrologer50 has only good intentions and I think she has tried really hard to provide a positive solution. Im just not convinced that there is a problem to be dealt with.:)

Rogue red
 

Astrologer4U

Well-known member
EJ53 said:
Some people fear astrology because they believe it predicts fate.....and in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, it did claim to do so. Now though, the horoscope is used to describe the inner nature.....and determine how the law of attraction (ie. cause and effect) brings things into our life for good or ill, whether we are aware of it or not.

Astrology is the means by which we can become aware of these unconscious forces and use them consciously to improve our quality of life.

EJ:)


I am so pleased that these points were mentioned.:)
 

Astrologer4U

Well-known member
astrologer50 said:
Welcome,
Astrology is a wonderful for of psychology, to know yourself better and therefore with study and research be better equipped to understand family, friends, colleagues. The main purpose of astrology is to help people make better choices, to clarify the nature of the psychological terrain through which we are all passing, and to serve as an ally in the endless, unpredictable task of creating the future!

In this forum it would be most helpful (but not a prerequisite) for people to ‘post’ their charts (rather than data) for others to comment on as we are all visual. For help on how to do this, go here http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126

This community is more of a discussion and learning site, and that our main objective is to encourage, interact and explain astrologically why something is happening in your life, rather than just ‘drop the answer in your lap’ and not necessarily to provide professional readings and forecast future events. This forum is not made for extensive forecasting and cannot always provide quick fixes or miracles….

This forum is for beginners’ astrology students and professional astrologers and it hoped that you learn more from each other.We hope that you come here and want to learn about astrology and join in with exchanges. We have an ever expanding Education forum and lots more to explore. http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12556 or try http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/TOClessons.htm

Lots of people have extremely high and sometimes unrealistic expectations of what astrology can do. Astrology doesn't always speak the language of outward, concrete events. The future that astrology can foresee with sometimes startling accuracy, doesn't always unfold in the world "out there." It unfolds between your ears and in your heart!

Here I am not talking about Horary (just ‘natal’ and all its derivatives),Horary is for asking specific poignant questions and casting a transit chart for the actual time you ‘ask the question’ and different rules apply….. if you want yes/no. http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=42

There are two main biggest branches that Astrologers fall into, Horary and natal Astrologers will look at questions throughout different forums using techniques like Secondary Progressions, Solar Arcs, Transits, Solar returns, which can take years of studying, research and practise, but if you are truly interested, dive in, you’ll get lots of support, help and advice. Theoretically astrology could answer any questions, providing they are poignant...

There are all sorts of different types Astrologers on this forum. I am a modern Astrologer and use Equal House system (one of the oldest and in my opinion of course J, most reliable system) but most here use Placidus, some Koch (unequal size houses) . In House & Cusps forum there are threads which discuss House systems extensively if you want to read up on the differences. Some Astrologers are ‘Traditional Astrologers’ others Horary Astrologers. Different rules apply to different areas of astrology.

These are just my thoughts (not those of moderators or other members) on the possibilities and limitations of Astrology. It is expected that the Moderators here and members will contribute to this thread…..

Just to wet your appetite, try here for all sorts of free Astrology report sites
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2518

Astrologer50

Great post A50... However, I think it should also serve as a reminder to the oldcomers, rather than only serving as something that only the newcomers, should know and understand.:)

This is just my opinion, nothing else. All that you have posted in the above quote is information that newcomers should know, and oldcomers should not forget. ;)
 

Astrologer4U

Well-known member
RayAustin said:
EJ,
I don't agree. One really has to do nothing with the other, they are contradictory especially how modern natal astrology has diverted very far from its traditional roots when we consider the trend of merely "psychological" application.

Perhaps a reccommendation that people should make sure to stop by the education board and read up on the horary links/thread before attempting, to assuage those mandatory interpretations that come up like, "I really don't know what I'm doing, so I can't give my opinion.."

Ray :)


To each is own but for me, I tend to agree with this.
 

Astrologer4U

Well-known member
waybread said:
I greatly appreciate all the effort that Astrologer50 has put into this "welcome", but I do not see astrology as a form of psychology. Nor would most licensed psychologists see astrology as a branch of their discipline, although a few would.

Astrology pre-dated psychology by millennia, and will no doubt persist after psychology has morphed into something else. Mundane astrology (earthquakes, tsunamis) or weather prediction may not even require human actors.

Also astrology does very much does speak the language of outer, concrete events, just not the language of events that are not 100% predictable; and of some types of events, not at all.

Nor does astrology require "poignancy" in its questions.

It is great to tell people about different house systems, but why personalize the "welcome" to prefer one house system or "modern" astrology? If this is to be a generic "welcome" why refer to Astrologer50 in the first person at all?

I will take this up with the moderators on our board, if one of us hasn't done so already.

Ultimately I am not sure what this "welcome" accomplishes beyond the Forum rules.

I am not sure as far as beyond the forum rules either but I don't think the thread had any ill intent. To each is own and we are all entitled to our own opinions. No need to show our dissapointments towards other peoples opinions, after all, what does that really accomplish outside of back and forth unecessary bickering? I know I have had more than my share of those days here. :) Who knew that there was a community of Astrologers who can't see beyond the planetary aspects, that maturity is a necessity in this field of Astrology. :eek:
 

EJ53

Banned
A lot has happened on this thread since I last posted, on which my comments are as follows :-

Kai/Ray

As Charm points out, our aim should be to provide constructive, objective comments on the draft rather than it's creator. It's ok to be negative........that is an essential part of constructive criticism.........but it's not ok to be personal.

All

Don't disagree with anyone's comments at all.

But, the difficulty comes in deciding upon the member comments to accept/reject...........And that will be made harder as the the thread grows longer.....Maybe it's time for someone to "sort the wheat from the chaff" and produce a 2nd draft before we proceed further.

EJ:)
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Folks,

Maybe we should all take a step back, take a deep breath, and perhaps come back with some constructive ideas. It is not helping much to copy-paste a sentence out of some one else's post and simply comment on it, or worse still, simply saying that the write-up has been done poorly, etc.. Whilst we are all free to express our opinions, but simply grading someone's 'contribution' with certain adjectives is not conducive to the atmosphere on this thread and forum. Please make it a point to give an alternative 'suggestion/text', which perhaps can be 'used' instead, and can equally imply that you are not satisfied with the text that stands at this moment, and would recommend something else instead. This is certainly a more constructive way of disagreeing, as has already been suggested time and again by Charm, EJ, etc.

A general guideline for the Greenhorns' Lounge cannot do any harm. We already have a couple of drafts here now, besides Astrologer50's post, who got the ball rolling on this at all. I would think it is probably time now to look into those posts/drafts done by Astro50, Shining Ray, Lilly, EJ, and others, who have made an effort and contributed what they could. Can someone begin compiling things now to get a single 'draft' ready?? Some or one of us mods can then look over it?

Have to rush to work now, but wish you all a good day.
:)AQ7
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
The best constructive criticism would be to trash it and start all over again.

But fine, have it your way. What's the point of it, again? I mean, I'm pretty sure that's the most important part of the whole thing. We need to know what the point of the "guideline" is, however unnecessary it may be. After that, then maybe steps could be taken to write something about it.
 

EJ53

Banned
Kaiousei no Senshi said:
The best constructive criticism would be to trash it and start all over again.

Kai.

This is an option...........and it may be what the Mods decide to do in due course (assuming they first accept that having any guideline is actually worthwhile)........This is simply our opportunity to ensure that their decision is based upon a proposed guideline which reflects the views of all interested members..........And it should indeed be presented with a list of reasons why interested members believe a guideline is/is not warranted.

All

To produce a 2nd/final draft for consideration by the MT, I think we should start with Lilly's revision of A50's First Draft..........list any ommissions from/additions to it that have been suggested.......decide which of those should be taken on board........and (if willing) ask A50/Lilly to produce the final draft.

So, these are (I think) the ommissions/additions which need a decision :-

Include a link to the forum index page? (EJ)

Steer novices to traditional/modern Natal astrology rather than horary (EJ)

Recommend reading of Education Board links to horary information before posing a question (Ray).......A valid recommendation for all areas (EJ)

Explain that the astrologer rather than astrology has limitations (Kai/Wintersprite)

Include A50 original comment re "helpful to include chart" (Starlink/others)

Include A50 original comment re "forum not made for extensive forecasting and cannot always provide quick fixes or miracles" (Starlink)

Advise novices to "keep it simple" (Starlink)

Keep it crisp, to the point and impersonal (Starlink)

Avoid misleading/misinformation (Kai)

Avoid linking astrology to psychology (Waybread)

Astrology does reveal concrete events (Waybread)

Questions do not require "poignancy" (Waybread)

Observe copyright laws (Rouge Red)

Guideline serves as a reminder to all rather than just information for newcomers (A4U)

And, the members list of pros/cons for having a guideline is as follows :-

?????

EJ:)
 

RayAustin

Well-known member
EJ, :)

Kai/Ray

As Charm points out, our aim should be to provide constructive, objective comments on the draft rather than it's creator. It's ok to be negative........that is an essential part of constructive criticism.........but it's not ok to be personal.

I can not speak for Kai, but I am not getting personal in the least; my comments have been constructive. My comments have been on the work, and the heart of the matter, and I fail to see where what you say is coming from.

I'm glad that everyone's comments/suggestions are being summarized as they have. Question is, who will re-write the final draft? Astro50, or someone else (not that it matters, just asking, I find it hard how it could be completely a collaborative effort)?

Ray:)
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Ok, since I have a couple of minutes now, I might as well put some thoughts down:

Suggest dropping words like *limitations* altogether (be it astrology or astrologers), and putting it in a more positive and relaxed note like: Astrology can show us trends, how things are likely to develop, the area of life that holds importance for a native (natal astro) or may become important for a certain period of time through use of predictive astro, by looking at accentuation of houses through placement of planets.

Also suggest to list up the various branches of Astrology (incl horary) like an index (even mention that we have boards/sub-boards for each/these branches, and putting a two-line explanation next to each branch name. Perhaps we do not need to list up all the sub-branches, if that goes beyond the scope of the post.

So, to begin with, probably first a few words on Astrology in general (think there is enough material for that)

Then list up the main branches like:

o Natal Astrology: this mainly deals with studying the native, his personality and the areas of life that he might be of importance for him. It is based upon the native's date, time and place of birth, using which the native's personal natal chart can be created (visit www.astro.com for this).

o Predictive Astrology: this is used to indicate the likely trends and developments in the future, but can also be used to study the past. The techniques used here vary from studying transits (momentary movement of planets) to planetary returns and progressions (which deal more with developments over a longer span of time).

o Relational Astrology: this is used to understand how two natives stand or relate to eachother. Again, there are various techniques to do this such as synastry: comparison of two natal charts, and/or composite: a 'natal' chart of the relationship itself, and which looks at the relationship as a separate entity.

o Horary Astrology: this is based on the chart created for the moment, where the moment, at best, corresponds with the time the querent came up with the question. It leaves all birth details of the querent out of study. Furthermore, the chart drawn up is used to study that particular question only and, so, will reflect the background related to that question.

o Medical Astrology: this branch of Astrology uses the natal chart to study the basic physical constitution and health of the native, how certain planetary placements in signs and houses as well as the aspects they make with eachother may give the native certain physical and psychological strengths and weaknesses. By studying the current transits in relation to the natal chart, one may also be able to see indications of proneness to injuries/health problems and development of the native's health in general.

And so on... Of course, these are only certain suggestions/some material from my side. And, btw, I would also strongly recommend to take that bit about: this forum is a place for students of Astrology to discuss Astrology, share related experiences and thereby learn from eachother.

:)aquarius7000
 

starlink

Well-known member
Okay, well then how about someone who knows how to be objective and can list more than two "camps" of astrology when there are more branches in astrology than there are on a bonzai tree.

Yes indeed Kai. For starters I think we should not even have to go into so much detail as to tell them about every branch of astrology. Your Bonzai example says it all.

We can maybe just say:
There are two schools of astrology, traditional and modern.
Maybe we can give one link for the traditional and one for the modern. We dont have to spell the whole thing out here.

Astrology contains a great variety of different subjects. One astrologer alone could not possibly go deeply into all of these. It would be sufficient for the beginning student of astrology to start with natal astrology alone.

(Soon they will come upon articles and reading from books what other branches are anyways (if they are serious), like mundane, horary, election, astrocartografy, political, medical and such. And also, after a while they will figure out what attracts them most and then can choose one of these branches to specialize in. But all that does not, i.m.o. belong here, in the GHL. When I started, I did not even think of going any further until I knew my basics inside out.)

However,I don't feel what has been written is adequate, Lilly quote

OK, then lets just tackle point for point. We should first of all be unanimous about what this lounge needs.

These are some of my suggestions and please do take one by one apart for adding/deleting comments I would say.

Start by putting up again a reminder of the rules (the pop up) but this time not as a pop up but just bold or something.

1. Study is a must I think, otherwise, why bother with astrology at all. So we start by the obvious: this is a learning site.
We have to provide material: we put in links like suggested above. We have God knows how many of those. Education board was made for this.

2. What they can learn from astrology. (we can choose the main one's like knowing thy selves and much later, help others.

2.a) Expectations, what you can and cannot expect.

3. Know some natal basics like planets/houses, rulerships, before attempting horary.
Give link to horary basics in Education Board, as well as natal basics.
Add link of Arian Maverick on how to set up a horary question
Add link on how to upload a chart here via the "go advanced" button which I think is the easiest one. Aquarius7000 wrote a very clear one about that.

Ok, that is a starter. We can copy/paste some of Astrologer50's sentences as well as Lilly's and others. I also would avoid any personal comments, like: "I would do it like this but you can do it like that if you wish".

Just because someone has an idea doesn't mean we all have to rush to embrace it.
My point as well, that's why we should do what we originally did, but not so haphazard, go point for point until we are clear about it.

It's apparent that any criticism of the original is now going to be met with cries of protest, and perceived as being *personal*.
Not necessarily. We can suggest and others can suggest something different. We choose the one that sounds best. There does not have to be criticism. A personal opinion is best.
 
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