Revenge, getting even, and master at destroying someone's life.

ElenaJ

Well-known member
Marc Edmond Jones in his book Horary Astrology, describes the 7th house as follows:
"The seventh house is important because it indicates the major relationships, in joint interest or equal status, of people and things linked together in any immediate crisis or problem.
This means all direct partnerships and contracts, such as in marriage or business, and also the equally direct contact in opposition represented by disputes, contests, warfare and conflicts of every sort, whether in enmity or friendship.... the basic idea is simple cooperation, of which the commonest manifestation is marriage. It is thus quite impartial in disclosing the reciprocal activities of life as both co-operative and unfriendly, and in showing competitors and competition as both menace and stimulation or opportunity. It fundamentally indicates the critical focus of a general potentiality in any question or crisis, or the immediate concern of everything else in general with that matter which has been brought to the point of consultation or conference.... All legal action is placed in the seventh house, including the lawyers on both sides; but with the judge taken as an umpire and located in the tenth, and with the jury... assigned to the eleventh as the special "resource" of the magistrate or legal jurisdiction... In the rare instance where it is necessary to differentiate between the attorneys for the plaintiff and defendant in a lawsuit, the querent's legal representation is found in the normal position at the seventh, and the opponent's lawyer or lawyers are identified by the first."
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Marc Edmond Jones in his book Horary Astrology, describes the 7th house as follows:
"The seventh house is important because it indicates the major relationships, in joint interest or equal status, of people and things linked together in any immediate crisis or problem.
This means all direct partnerships and contracts, such as in marriage or business, and also the equally direct contact in opposition represented by disputes, contests, warfare and conflicts of every sort, whether in enmity or friendship.... the basic idea is simple cooperation, of which the commonest manifestation is marriage. It is thus quite impartial in disclosing the reciprocal activities of life as both co-operative and unfriendly, and in showing competitors and competition as both menace and stimulation or opportunity. It fundamentally indicates the critical focus of a general potentiality in any question or crisis, or the immediate concern of everything else in general with that matter which has been brought to the point of consultation or conference.... All legal action is placed in the seventh house, including the lawyers on both sides; but with the judge taken as an umpire and located in the tenth, and with the jury... assigned to the eleventh as the special "resource" of the magistrate or legal jurisdiction... In the rare instance where it is necessary to differentiate between the attorneys for the plaintiff and defendant in a lawsuit, the querent's legal representation is found in the normal position at the seventh, and the opponent's lawyer or lawyers are identified by the first."
HOUSE RULERSHIPS IN PRACTICE book by Deborah Houlding
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h9.html
Scholars and practitioners of law
are attributed to the 9th house :smile:
confusion often exists
as to whether lawyers
and those who enforce the law should be associated with this house
or the 10th.
In the sense that
9th house represents guidance
and advice
from those more knowledgeable
than ourselves
THEN
lawyers, counsellors and advisors
generally fall under the principles
of the 9th house
when they act in an advisory capacity.


IN CONTRAST
Law, as a means of enforcing a ruling over others
however, belongs to the 10th house
which is the house of authority and rulership.

Hence
lawyers
and solicitors
are attributed to the 9th
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Don't you find it intriguing that spouses and lawyers are also grouped in the same house with open enemies?
Is there a connection here?
The seventh house is the house of partnership. One-on-one relationships.

Spouses are partners for obvious reasons. So is anyone you have a partnership with that works for your benefit. If you have a lawyer, they're your partner for the purpose of whatever you hired them for: defending you in court, making your will, whatever it is. For the same reason, your therapist or doctor or acupuncturist - or your astrologer, for that matter - would be seventh house, when we're talking about them in relation to you. So, arguably, is your best friend if you have one - that's a one-on-one relationship too.

An enemy or rival is also your partner, if you think about it. If you actively dislike someone, you're spending some significant time and energy on thinking about them, reacting to them, perhaps planning your actions regarding them. (That ties back to the original subject of this thread, in fact: if there's someone you want to get revenge on, that you're focused enough on them to be plotting revenge makes them a seventh house person for you.)

Mostly agree with peoples here, except lawyers. Lawyers are Jupiterian actually. Represent at 9th house and 6th house [according to Western Hellenistic Thema Mundi]
It depends on what context we're talking about the lawyer in. Law as a profession is ninth house, traditionally. But the lawyer in relation to the client is seventh house: that's a contractual relationship, and a partnership. Sixth house makes sense if you're considering the service aspect of being a lawyer, and perhaps the intense dedication to work and study that it takes to be one. Sixth house is also the house of apprenticeship, and the traditional way to become a lawyer, for centuries, was through apprenticeship and mentoring. Law school is a fairly recent invention.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The seventh house is the house of partnership. One-on-one relationships.

Spouses are partners for obvious reasons. So is anyone you have a partnership with that works for your benefit. If you have a lawyer, they're your partner for the purpose of whatever you hired them for: defending you in court, making your will, whatever it is. For the same reason, your therapist or doctor or acupuncturist - or your astrologer, for that matter - would be seventh house, when we're talking about them in relation to you. So, arguably, is your best friend if you have one - that's a one-on-one relationship too.

An enemy or rival is also your partner, if you think about it. If you actively dislike someone, you're spending some significant time and energy on thinking about them, reacting to them, perhaps planning your actions regarding them. (That ties back to the original subject of this thread, in fact: if there's someone you want to get revenge on, that you're focused enough on them to be plotting revenge makes them a seventh house person for you.)


It depends on what context we're talking about the lawyer in. Law as a profession is ninth house, traditionally. But the lawyer in relation to the client is seventh house: that's a contractual relationship, and a partnership. Sixth house makes sense if you're considering the service aspect of being a lawyer, and perhaps the intense dedication to work and study that it takes to be one. Sixth house is also the house of apprenticeship, and the traditional way to become a lawyer, for centuries, was through apprenticeship and mentoring. Law school is a fairly recent invention.
Thank you Osamenor for that clear, cogent clarification :smile:
 

Abby83

Well-known member
I have been reading some history and it seems like Libra is one sign which is never given any credit for delivering revenge and punishment. Genghis Khan was one famous example that had a Libra Mars, where it is debilitated, but the more I think about it the more it makes sense. Libra is balancing the scale meaning that a wrong has to be righted but given the signs exaltation in Saturn, it also means that it will wait and have the discipline to go in for the kill.

Astrologers say Scorpio but in my opinion, the sign itself is more bark than bite and a lot of that stuff is written by modern astrologers, usually Scorpios, desperately wanting to be seen as strong. Most of the times I have found that this sign sabotages itself more than it does others, making itself look like an idiot in order to get revenge.

I think it makes sense because Mars is the ancient ruler of the sign and Mars is brash, not really that tactical, and acts on impulse. It is too emotional and doesn't think strategically.

The other signs? I'd say Venus ruled signs are actually the ones with the worst bad side. Mars is punch you in the face and tear apart your tires, Venus is ruin your reputation so bad that you cannot find a job and have to live in poverty due to the damage strategically being done.

It seems like Taurus and Libra are the signs that once angered, cannot be stopped.

So what aspects would make someone good at this?

I think Squares and oppositions for one.

Any bad aspect to Saturn or even Saturn aspects in general will give someone the strategic mind needed to do revenge right.

Beautifully said.

I too am a libra sun with Pluto (my ascendant ruler) in libra in 12th house.

I know from experience that justice comes. Even if it takes many years. Why? Because I'm determined in my head the whole time. I keep the truth in my head and keep the faith with God. I prayed to god. When it comes to ppl who are psychopaths and those with npd, I have learnt techniques to deal with them. You can never expose these ppl to their face, you do it behind the scenes in subtle ways. All of the villains in my life got their karma, but it took years. U don't even have to say anything. The energy is there and they know it.
 

Opal

Premium Member
Soooo...in my natal, when I was unaware she was my enemy.....she would have been 12th house.......and now that she is a known enemy.....she is 7th........
 

Opal

Premium Member
Ms Elena,

Of course, it's a pleasure. This is planetary concept from earlier astrology practitioner.

QUOTE:
"The origin of the traditional system of zodiacal sign rulerships lies is the mythical horoscope for the birth of the world known as the Thema Mundi. The Thema Mundi was used as a teaching tool or a conceptual device in Hellenistic astrology, and in that system it provided the rationale for sign rulership, the exaltations, the nature of the aspects, and certain significations of the signs.

Although there are a few different variations of the lore surrounding the Thema Mundi, all versions have Cancer rising with the Moon in Cancer and the Sun in Leo, with the rest of the visible planets fanning out in zodiacal order based on their relative speed and distance from the Sun.

The Thema Mundi has Cancer rising partly due to an older Mesopotamian belief that the conjunction of all of the planets in the signs of Cancer and Capricorn indicated the periodic creation and destruction of the world. According to legends ascribed to the early 3rd century BCE Mesopotamian astrologer Berossus, when all of the planets are conjoined in Cancer was said to indicate the destruction of the world by a great flood, and when they all conjoin in the the sign Capricorn it was said to indicate the destruction of the world by fire.

Another reason for the Cancer ascendant is probably the fact that in Egypt, where Hellenistic astrology likely developed, the heliacal rising of the fixed star Sirius in the mid summer would indicate the annual flooding of the Nile river. Sirius was the 1st star in the Egyptian decanic calendar which was used to designate the beginning of the Egyptian year."

http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2007/06/11/the-thema-mundi/

Thanks Sun!
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Soooo...in my natal, when I was unaware she was my enemy.....she would have been 12th house.......and now that she is a known enemy.....she is 7th........

I think it depends on how you came to be enemies. And what kind of enmity this is. Frenemies? Rivals? Neighbors who don't get along? Work competitors who hate each other personally as well as professionally? Is there a history of someone "stealing" someone else's love interest (I put that in quotes because love interests can't be stolen without their consent), or getting a promotion that the other wanted, or suing the other? Is this an ongoing thing, or a "she did x to me however many years ago, so I hate her forever" thing?

It's one thing if you were friends first, then discovered her plotting against you or betraying your trust--that would be a very twelfth house thing. It's another if you disliked her from the moment you met. It's another if you've always had some sort of open rivalry. It's still another if you have some other kind of relationship, like neighbors, say, or family.

But, when we're reading your natal chart, I think the most relevant piece, whether we're considering the seventh house or the twelfth, is how you yourself handle being enemies. That's what's really going to turn up in the natal.

And maybe a tendency to perceive enemies will. One of my astro friends has a twelfth house Venus/Neptune conjunction, and a strong tendency to believe that people, especially women, are jealous of her, or plotting against her, or (in one case she related to me) trying to steal her husband (who actually doesn't seem to be at all stealable, but that's another story). Based on what I know of these situations, it's rarely if ever true. What does stand out for me is that she has a tendency to believe it. And a huge challenge, for her, is figuring out whether there is or isn't any merit to her belief. That's a very twelfth house thing. With seventh house, you would know straight up who's really against you, and who isn't.

I'm toying with the idea that it may be a very twelfth house thing to believe that people are against you, whether or not they actually are. Perhaps that's also where the OP for this thread came up with what seems to be a bit of an obsession with revenge: is s/he perhaps working through twelfth house issues? (Could be seventh house as well, but seventh house seems much more clean and open to me.)

Now, if we were doing horary, the twelfth house for the horary chart might very clearly indicate a secret enemy, and the seventh house an open one. If you asked a horary question about this enemy of yours, I'd expect her to be signified by your seventh house (unless you have some other relationship, like neighbors or family or being in the same friend group - that would turn up with the significator of the house for whatever she is to you: third for a neighbor or sibling, eleventh for social circle, or any of the many other houses that signify various family members if she's a member of your family but not your sister). But if you'd asked a horary question about something she was doing to you, before you saw her as an enemy, and you didn't know she was doing that to you, she probably would've been signified by the twelfth house.
 

ElenaJ

Well-known member
Yes, the 12th would be what is going on behind your back, and what is going on under the surface, including your subconscious.
The 7th is more up front and out in the open.
So, if you discover a 12th house person and bring them out in the open, do they become a 7th house? Good question.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Yes, the 12th would be what is going on behind your back, and what is going on under the surface, including your subconscious.
The 7th is more up front and out in the open.
So, if you discover a 12th house person and bring them out in the open, do they become a 7th house? Good question.
Soooo...in my natal, when I was unaware she was my enemy
.....she would have been 12th house
.......and now that she is a known enemy.....she is 7th........
Exactly :smile:
 

Opal

Premium Member
I used to call her my sister, until my Fathers funeral.

She was adopted when I was 7 and she was 6. She always had issues, that we all overlooked. After her behaviour for 5 days towards me, at my fathers memorial........it was insane......or maybe she is........it is good though that I be aware of what’s in the future though......such is life eh?😄
 

waybread

Well-known member
The law as a body of knowledge is a 9th house matter. Cf. the 9th house as including philosophy and ethics.

Litigation and open enemies are a 7th house matter.

The 12th house rules secret enemies: the back-stabbers.

I've been married to a sun Libra for 22 years. They are strongly motivated by a sense of fairness and justice.
 

SunConjunctUranus

Well-known member
The theorema and practical of law itself come from Jupiter and the 9th house anyway, must have very strong Mercury, and both should preferably in sect and at angle. Just saying though.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The theorema and practical of law itself come from Jupiter and the 9th house
anyway, must have very strong Mercury,
and both should preferably in sect and at angle. Just saying though.
quote:
Jupiter rejoices by day :smile:
Mercury rejoices by day and by night
for it belongs to the diurnal sect by day
and to the nocturnal sect by night.
Diurnal stars rejoice with diurnal images
nocturnal stars rejoice with nocturnal images.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
I used to call her my sister, until my Fathers funeral.

She was adopted when I was 7 and she was 6. She always had issues, that we all overlooked. After her behaviour for 5 days towards me, at my fathers memorial........it was insane......or maybe she is........it is good though that I be aware of what’s in the future though......such is life eh?😄

I would say she's a third house person for you, because she's your sister. Adopted, yes, and estranged, yes, but that doesn't make you not siblings. If you were raised as siblings, it counts as third house.

Bad sibling relationships as well as good ones can be third house.

If you're in a situation of constant rivalry or one upmanship with someone, that seems very seventh house to me. Twelfth would be they're sneaking around behind your back, gossiping about you meanly, that kind of thing.

If you've got anything shared between your twelfth house and your third, or your third and your seventh, that could speak to this relationship. By that, I mean the ruler of one of those houses placed in the other, or shared rulership, or planets in them aspecting each other.
 

Opal

Premium Member
The law as a body of knowledge is a 9th house matter. Cf. the 9th house as including philosophy and ethics.

Litigation and open enemies are a 7th house matter.

The 12th house rules secret enemies: the back-stabbers.

I've been married to a sun Libra for 22 years. They are strongly motivated by a sense of fairness and justice.

Yeah, my husband and I too.....don't care a lot about material things......but fairness and justice......Yup! with a capital "Y"
 

The19thLaw

Well-known member
Be careful of bolstering your case with what the Athenians thought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War



The Spartans were the winners of this war, and they were a traditionally Martial society with Saturnine overtones.



The Spartans were the followers of Ares, which comes as no surprise to anyone who knows about their civilization.

Venusian force is certainly painted in a one-dimensional light, but I think Mars gets the same treatment since it is often seen as mostly blind and bone-headed.

However, I think it's where both of them share a sign with Saturn where we can see the power of these energies when applied with the discipline of Saturnine energy.

You might enjoy Julius Evola's "Metaphysics of War"

Except Sparta had its limits and was just stuck on war, it didn't last that long as a society and wasn't able to advance all that much, even losing battles eventually to Thebes and Macedonia.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Except Sparta had its limits and was just stuck on war, it didn't last that long as a society and wasn't able to advance all that much, even losing battles eventually to Thebes and Macedonia.

Point taken, yet the legend of Rome has it that the founders were originated from a tryst with a mortal priestess and Mars. Rome stands and is thriving to this day.

And every society has its limitations.
 
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The19thLaw

Well-known member
Point taken, yet the legend of Rome has it that the founders were originated from a tryst with a mortal priestess and Mars. Rome stands and is thriving to this day.

And every society has its limitations.

Interesting you say that and Rome isn't exactly thriving, I mean Italy is not the UK, China, or America in terms of power.

Not sure where the origin between Rome and Mars is coming from though. Also, if we were to believe astrology, Rome has a Mars in Gemini, not exactly that domiciled.
 
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