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  #1  
Unread 03-12-2014, 10:42 PM
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Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquarius?

I already know signs that square or oppose each other often have a lot of contradictory personality traits. For example Aquarius is friendly and openly social while Scorpio is secretive and a lone wolf, Cancer is homely and emotional while Aries is brash and aggressive, and so forth.

But I do wonder why some signs that actually have strong contradictions in personality traits and life philosophies aren't traditionally aspected hard towards each other.

For example Capricorn and Aquarius are OPPOSITE each others so many ways. Capricorn reveres traditions and worship those they see as authority figures. While Aquarius is a nonconformist individualist who frequently rebels against those in charge,often just for the hell of it. Capricorn is concerned about financial security while Aquarius revolves around intellectual superiority and often is ideological to the point of sheer stupidity and nonsense. Capricorn is patriotic while Aquarius is anti-country and anti-state (unless they embed into specific ideologies).

Another example is Aries and Pisces. Pisces is mellow and introverted while Aries is a brash braggart attention seeker. Pisces is so incredibly weak physically and sports are the last of their activities. In fact Pisces share sooooo much in common with Libra such as love for art and many of Pisces hobbies go into conflict with Aries's interests. Yet they don't traditionally square, oppose, or inconjunct.

Gemini is sneaky and two faced while Cancer is often sweet and loyal, respectful of authority figures. And so on.

So I cannot understand why there isn't an hard aspects for signs that actually contradict each other from a personality perspective. I mean I honestly think Aquarius would have a much harder time getting along with Capricorn than Taurus (a sign that it squares). Same thing with Aries and Pisces-in fact Pisces is inconjunct to Libra (an aspect some astrologers believe is actually harder than opposition)-but Libra shares so much in common with Pisces especially their hobbies I cannot understand why they traditionally aspect each other hard (inconjunction) while Pisces doesn't have any aspect with Aries.

Can any astrologer explain the logic behind this theory??

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Unread 03-12-2014, 11:10 PM
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

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Originally Posted by Darth MI View Post
I already know signs that square or oppose each other often have a lot of contradictory personality traits. For example Aquarius is friendly and openly social while Scorpio is secretive and a lone wolf, Cancer is homely and emotional while Aries is brash and aggressive, and so forth.

But I do wonder why some signs that actually have strong contradictions in personality traits and life philosophies aren't traditionally aspected hard towards each other.

For example Capricorn and Aquarius are OPPOSITE each others so many ways. Capricorn reveres traditions and worship those they see as authority figures. While Aquarius is a nonconformist individualist who frequently rebels against those in charge,often just for the hell of it. Capricorn is concerned about financial security while Aquarius revolves around intellectual superiority and often is ideological to the point of sheer stupidity and nonsense. Capricorn is patriotic while Aquarius is anti-country and anti-state (unless they embed into specific ideologies).

Another example is Aries and Pisces. Pisces is mellow and introverted while Aries is a brash braggart attention seeker. Pisces is so incredibly weak physically and sports are the last of their activities. In fact Pisces share sooooo much in common with Libra such as love for art and many of Pisces hobbies go into conflict with Aries's interests. Yet they don't traditionally square, oppose, or inconjunct.

Gemini is sneaky and two faced while Cancer is often sweet and loyal, respectful of authority figures. And so on.

So I cannot understand why there isn't an hard aspects for signs that actually contradict each other from a personality perspective. I mean I honestly think Aquarius would have a much harder time getting along with Capricorn than Taurus (a sign that it squares). Same thing with Aries and Pisces-in fact Pisces is inconjunct to Libra (an aspect some astrologers believe is actually harder than opposition)-but Libra shares so much in common with Pisces especially their hobbies I cannot understand why they traditionally aspect each other hard (inconjunction) while Pisces doesn't have any aspect with Aries.

Can any astrologer explain the logic behind this theory??
Traditional astrology considers the house and sign location of the planetary ruler of any planet
as well as
any aspects to or from the planetary ruler of any planet

'Cookbook' also known as 'one-size-fits-all astrology' is unreliable
because
Delineations of planets in Cancer vary dependent on the house and sign location of the natal moon
i.e.
A planet in Cancer with Moon in Cancer
differs from that same planet in Cancer with Moon in Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius
Traditional astrology takes the entire chart into account
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Unread 03-12-2014, 11:52 PM
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

What JupiterASC said. Also, you are leaving out all the other definitions of each sign which also matters - whether the sign is air, water, earth, fire - whether male or female - whether cardinal fixed or mutable, etc. Along with that you must include then the aspects to the ruler, the sign the ruler is in, house position, and so on.
You say Aquarius is "sociable and friendly" - Aquarius is a fixed sign, so can also be dogmatic. "Sociable" can mean several things - one is "to be open and friendly", as you said. It can also mean "slave to common custom and loathe or scared to violate it", which is not so positive. You would think Aquarius is the home of democracy, where ideas are heard, discussed, social convention discussed and practiced. A lynch mob is also a democracy.

There are positives and negatives to each sign. A person can have an Aries Sun and even Aries rising, yet be meek because of a Cancer Moon and Mars in Pisces and Sun in the 12th house. There is no one-size-fits-all zodiac, and that is the worst myth that exists about astrology that people believe and thus dismiss the practice.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 12:05 AM
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth MI View Post
I already know signs that square or oppose each other often have a lot of contradictory personality traits. For example Aquarius is friendly and openly social while Scorpio is secretive and a lone wolf, Cancer is homely and emotional while Aries is brash and aggressive, and so forth.

But I do wonder why some signs that actually have strong contradictions in personality traits and life philosophies aren't traditionally aspected hard towards each other.
Another great question. "Why do some signs seem to be so contradictory yet they're not the traditional "hard aspects" - square, opposition, etc.?"

So, I'm pretty sure I'm getting this from Dane Rudhyar and his ilk, because they think about astrology primarily in terms of cycles, but one way to look at the Zodiac wheel is as a hero's journey through experiences, and the journey is dialectic. That is, each sign represents the opposite, or at least the dissolution of the other - the antithesis to the former sign's thesis.
And notice that all your examples are of signs that are right beside each other (Capricorn and Aquarius, Aries and Pisces...)

So, without suggesting these examples represent the essence of the signs, here's how I might think of a kind of dialectic progression through signs:
If Leo is egoistic and self-expressive, the commanding height of one's personal expression, creating and recreating their own self, then the next sign, Virgo, dissolves that and creates a totally different experience. When the self-expression and ego-building feels empty, Virgo looks to take all that energy and give it away, without reward - to self-sacrificially serve others - and to critique and perfect the self rather than just celebrate it. But then, that kind of service can lead to exploitation (of Virgo,) so the next sign, Libra, takes this up as a concern for fairness, a demand for reciprocation between the self and the other, with a concern for balance (justice). Yet Libra, while setting down fair rules for two beings to engage with each other in, maintains a sense of self and other as discreet beings. Scorpio comes along and blows that away by having the beings penetrate each other in an act of merging, and so the two become closer to being one. Etc etc.
So, again, I'm getting this I think from astrologers who see the wheel as a cycle - a hero's journey - in itself. But I think you're right. I think sign-beside-sign tends to imply a radical shift.

Last edited by Birch Dragon; 03-13-2014 at 05:40 AM.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 12:40 AM
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

I was going to say that using Linda Goodman's "Sun Signs" to argue astrology is like me arguing the theory of relativity with Albert Einstein because I own a watch and a calendar.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 02:11 AM
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

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I was going to say that using Linda Goodman's "Sun Signs" to argue astrology is like me arguing the theory of relativity with Albert Einstein because I own a watch and a calendar.
Oh I agree! In my naive teenage years I was persuaded to buy a purple magnetic magic healing plate and to consider fruitarianism and breatharianism after reading that book! Not much astrology in there at all!

Last edited by junoisuppose; 03-13-2014 at 02:26 AM.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 02:24 AM
junoisuppose junoisuppose is offline
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

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Originally Posted by Birch Dragon View Post
here's how I might think of a kind of dialectic progression through signs:
If Leo is egoistic and self-expressive, the commanding height of one's personal expression, creating and recreating their own self, then the next sign, Virgo, dissolves that and and create a totally different experience. When the self-expression and ego-building feels empty, Virgo looks to take all that energy and give it away, without reward - to self-sacrificially serve others - and to critique and perfect ten self rather than just celebrate it. But then, that kind of service can lead to exploration (of Virgo,) so the next sign, Libra, takes this up as a concern for fairness, reciprocating between the self and the other, with a concern for balanced justice. Yet Libra, while setting down fair rules for two beings to engage with each other in, maintains a sense of self and other and discreet beings. Scorpio comes along and blows that away by having the beings penetrate each other in an act of merging, and so the two become closer to being one. Etc etc.
So, again, I'm getting this I think from astrologers who see the wheel as a cycle - a hero's journey - in itself. But I think you're right. I think sign-beside-sign tends to imply a radical shift.
Yep. Firstly signs are alternately positive or negative, in the yin and yang sense, not meaning some signs are good and some signs are bad. So each sign is the opposite polarity of those signs on either side. For example leo is outgoing, virgo more introverted, libra outgoing, scorpio inward looking etc. People with the sun in those signs will seem that way, but we also have to consider the other planets in their chart, for example venus in leo is showy, venus in virgo more demure etc.

Secondly each sign takes the activities of the previous sign to a higher level, to counterbalance the previous sign and to stop that influence going too far. This happens right up until pisces which is quite selfless and all about merging and the oneness of life and the universe, and then the only way to take that any higher is... oneness within oneself - so we're back to aries again.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 03:22 AM
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

I agree with Zarathu. You really have to get beyond simplistic "planets in signs" astrology. It is helpful to consider why a particular sign is described in a particular way. Where did these cookbook definitions come from?

One good thing about your OP is that it shows that you are ready to do this.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 03:50 AM
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

You've been reading too much Linda Goodman.

There is only one way to learn astrology, and that is through the study of horoscopes and the lives of the people they represent.

As long as your knowledge of astrology is limited to shallow books about astrology, and does not progress into the ability to responsibly interpret a chart, you will remain a dilettante.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 03:50 AM
junoisuppose junoisuppose is offline
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

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The problem here, IMO, is that you are just limiting yourself to a cursory study of the signs. Perhaps you've been a bit too entranced by Linda Goodman's SunSigns.

Astrology is orders of magnitude more complex than that. First of all, each individual chart is different. Second, you have to look at the intensity of the power of all the signs, houses, planets and aspects, and then the intensity of the friction that each of the signs, houses, planets, and aspects represents. Third, you have to look at the houses, the planets, the signs, and the aspects between the planets. Then you have to look at broader issues of aspects and houses, and signs, and planets in configurations such as T-Squares, Yods, Grand Trines, and Grand Squares through each of the planets that are part of them in each of the signs they inhabit in each of the houses they sit in as aspected to other significant planets.

Then you need to be looking at midpoint pictures, Symbol Systems, Asteroid aspects, fixed sign aspects.

And this is just a starting level of complexity. And now it starts to seriously ramp up.

The problem you have described is trying to explain the world of particle physics using the mathematics of the 5th grade arithmetic, when you need to switch to Quantum physics.

I don't mean to be offensive or appear too arrogant, but your concept of what astrology is and how it works together to too small to even begin to handle the job that you want to accomplish with it.

Its like looking at a the Jupiter with your naked eye and complaining that its blurry. You need to use the equivalent of the Hubble, or one of the flyby satellites.
Yes, but everybody has to start somewhere.

& it's good to tantalise people with all the things they can learn about later on, but perhaps not so good to overwhelm them with information so that they give up before they get there. (not that I'm saying you did).

When the student is ready the teacher will appear & all that. (Once you've learned enough to understand the next step a book or a post or an article will appear, or in fact more likely you will be going through a relevant transit).

Plus also please don't even mention that dreadful book or give it any air time or press, it will just encourage people!
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Unread 03-13-2014, 04:22 AM
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

I agree Zarathu, which is the point of my Buddha signature quote.

In terms of signs, I am starting more and more to think of them in terms of basic elements and planetary rulers. I just bought a new (to me) modern astrology handbook, and could barely stand it-- it was so full of silly personality traits, some of which contradicted one another. I much prefer the dynamic approach taken by Forrest in the Inner Sky, where he talks about planets', signs', and houses' "endpoints" or evolutionary goals.

Capricorn is a cardinal earth sign ruled by Saturn. What does that tell us, before we plunge into the old businessman or social climber stereotype?

cardinal: leadership
earth: a practical, material orientation
Saturn: the material realist, who can either show where we feel limited and frustrated; or where and how hard work and patience are likely to pay off later in life.
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Last edited by waybread; 03-13-2014 at 04:25 AM.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 05:03 AM
junoisuppose junoisuppose is offline
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

Interesting Zarathu.
I think meditation helps us to be more psychic, if that is the right word, because we need that space and quiet in order to hear the things that we 'know', but you still needed a meditation teacher to teach you meditation in the first place in order to get you to that point.
What happened in the next 30 years? Did it happen again?
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Unread 03-13-2014, 05:32 AM
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

1) Yes, the OP has shown several times he's at a beginner's level;
2) this has become an interesting thread and Linda Goodman is taking the beating I presume her work deserves, and;
3) I respect everybody on this thread and read all your posts as often as I can;

BUT

1) From within a beginner's frame the OP is asking good, enthusiastic questions;
2) if the OP can separate the idea of signs as archetypal energy in themselves from the idea of, for example, a "Gemini person," it's total valid to ask, discuss and learn about the characteristics of signs themselves ( I see people here recognize that), and:
3) Nobody has yet addressed, let alone answered, the OP's actual question.
Look closely. It's a question about ASPECTS. He's (i'm assuming he) asking about the underlying logic behind the commonly cited aspects between planets.
This is what he's asking:
We talk of "squares and see them as hard aspects because the signs at 90 degree angles have some natural disassociation to them. But then, so do the signs directly before and after a sign. So why don't we say planets 330 degrees apart or 30 degrees apart are in "hard aspect" the way we do squares and oppositions? What's the logic behind that decision? What's so special about squares and oppositions but not other aspects between disharmonious signs?

In my post I agreed with the OP that signs beside each other have qualities that contradict or go against each other, and I tried to suggest something about the logic for why. But I can't answer why the 30 degree or 330 degree aspect isn't commonly thought of as an "Aspect." If your moon and Sun are 30 degrees apart we don't speak of them being "aspected" to each other. Why squares but not 30 degree differences?
Ultimately (wether he intends it or not) the OP is asking for nothing less than a lesson in the fundamental theory underlying the whole notion of aspects.

Last edited by Birch Dragon; 03-13-2014 at 05:36 AM.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 11:34 AM
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

Hi Darth MI,
As said, everyone has to start somewhere when entering the field of astrology. Your question is the result of an enquiring mind that thinks about what has been read in an attempt to understand its principles, rather than merely acccept it as unchangeable cosmic law.
Be warned that it can get you into a lot of trouble when engaged in discussion of its values, as there are so many astrologers, all with so many different perspectives.
Here is another one, through the 'holistic lore' of which I was taught.

Birch Dragon spoke of the 'Hero's journey' through the signs. I agree with the theory of its role, yet differ with how he considers it to be practised. I may have read him incorrectly because holistic astrology does not work with the idea that the journey is through a dissolving of one sign by the next, but an addition to it. If 'The Hero' is on a personal journey, he is going to pick up ideas on the way that will always be of influence and will be put into his knapsack of experience.

E.g. Firey Aries can be pioneering, impulsive, unafraid to carry out its initial personal plan. Yet there can be no possibility of any fruition of its desire
unless Taurus provides the physical Earth foundation to give it substance. The plan will need to be thought out and drawn up before it can ever be executed. Taurus can't do that because it isn't Mentally- minded. Knock, knock, for help from Gemini. Feeling goes into the plan via Cancer. Leo takes all this to create something visual, and the executed work comes via Virgo. All personal signs that give the Hero's plan its personal shape and form.
The Hero then realises through evidence of proof( very Virgo!) that....
whoops.... he is not alone. Libra shows him how other mental perspectives are also available for him to consider. Scorpio will emotionally chew and mulch over these different ideas, take them or leave them, and destroy as of necessity. He evolves through Sagittarius with a bigger, better, and solely personal idea(l) that rises above and beyond the scope of the initial idea of the personal plan. It's this expansion of idea(l) to which Capricorn can give a physical structure that is built to endure and last forever. However, time does NOT stand still and the plan undergoes change. It's Aquarius that chips, chops, alters (without destroying!) and re-forms the rock of 'the outdated mould' of the plan. It is adapted to suit the mentality of (modern)living through the wider world community that is other than one's own individuality, and of which one is but part. Through Pisces the Hero may finally sense and perceive that he is but one of a species called Mankind and, as an individual, his personal (ego) plan
doesn't really matter in the Great Scheme of Things. It no longer fits. He can let it go for what it was and initially stood for. Yet his knapsack is full of the knowledge and wisdom gained through the life's experiences of his journey.

When he begins his journey through Aries again, those experiences have led to the idea of a NEW personal plan. Yet it's taken on a different perspective, wherby its quality is more personally meaningful. The whole zodiac cycle is put into motion again.

Only a very simple manner to explain what seems a difficult principle. Yet it does appear to work, in whichever house Aries is set as the beginning of the Hero's journey; this time round and every day.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 05:09 PM
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birch Dragon View Post
1) Yes, the OP has shown several times he's at a beginner's level;
2) this has become an interesting thread and Linda Goodman is taking the beating I presume her work deserves, and;
3) I respect everybody on this thread and read all your posts as often as I can;

BUT

1) From within a beginner's frame the OP is asking good, enthusiastic questions;
2) if the OP can separate the idea of signs as archetypal energy in themselves from the idea of, for example, a "Gemini person," it's total valid to ask, discuss and learn about the characteristics of signs themselves ( I see people here recognize that), and:
3) Nobody has yet addressed, let alone answered, the OP's actual question.
Look closely. It's a question about ASPECTS. He's (i'm assuming he) asking about the underlying logic behind the commonly cited aspects between planets.
This is what he's asking:
We talk of "squares and see them as hard aspects because the signs at 90 degree angles have some natural disassociation to them. But then, so do the signs directly before and after a sign. So why don't we say planets 330 degrees apart or 30 degrees apart are in "hard aspect" the way we do squares and oppositions? What's the logic behind that decision? What's so special about squares and oppositions but not other aspects between disharmonious signs?

In my post I agreed with the OP that signs beside each other have qualities that contradict or go against each other, and I tried to suggest something about the logic for why. But I can't answer why the 30 degree or 330 degree aspect isn't commonly thought of as an "Aspect." If your moon and Sun are 30 degrees apart we don't speak of them being "aspected" to each other. Why squares but not 30 degree differences?
Ultimately (wether he intends it or not) the OP is asking for nothing less than a lesson in the fundamental theory underlying the whole notion of aspects.
I assumed he was talking about the differences between the signs.
If he's asking about aspects (& I'm assuming it's a 'he' too) then some astrologers do use these aspects. Even www.astro.com uses them they are semi-sextiles or inconjunctions - minor negative aspects.
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_aspect_e.htm
Actually www.astro.com classifies them as neutral not negative.

Last edited by junoisuppose; 03-13-2014 at 05:16 PM.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 05:13 PM
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

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Originally Posted by junoisuppose View Post
Yes, but everybody has to start somewhere.

& it's good to tantalise people with all the things they can learn about later on, but perhaps not so good to overwhelm them with information so that they give up before they get there. (not that I'm saying you did).

When the student is ready the teacher will appear & all that. (Once you've learned enough to understand the next step a book or a post or an article will appear, or in fact more likely you will be going through a relevant transit).

Plus also please don't even mention that dreadful book or give it any air time or press, it will just encourage people!
Absolutely, nobody is debating that. But if that is your sole source of information, you are hardly equipped or prepared to debate the entire validity of astrology based on that. I read the first chapter on an introduction to quantum mechanics - that doesn't mean I can now debate experts on the subject and tell them their discipline is BS. That is what the original poster suggested.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 05:31 PM
junoisuppose junoisuppose is offline
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

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Absolutely, nobody is debating that. But if that is your sole source of information, you are hardly equipped or prepared to debate the entire validity of astrology based on that. I read the first chapter on an introduction to quantum mechanics - that doesn't mean I can now debate experts on the subject and tell them their discipline is BS. That is what the original poster suggested.
ooh meany gemini comment (I read your date of birth yesterday).

Personally I think we should encourage everyone to study astrology, it'll lead to a more harmonious world where we respect all the differences between the signs and different qualities as equal, and people will be happier because they understand the positive qualities of the transits they are going through and might see the things they are facing as fated.

Perhaps we should have graded forums like school and advanced forums where old timers can debate difficult questions, and people with very obscure interests can discuss those in shady corners.

Personally I didn't think that the OP was a con suggesting that astrology is rubbish, although those posts do appear from time to time, so I think you're projecting what his suggestion was. Even if he was suggesting such a thing, personally, I think the best approach is to answer, in a simple way, showing that astrology is in fact valid and can answer the question posed.

Also these forums show up in a google search. Anyone just beginning in astrology looking for answers to such questions would be directed here, and so why not provide them with the answers?

IMO if you don't think the question is worth answering don't bother answering it, move on to a question that is more interesting to you.

(Although I did think your original comment was quite funny).
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Unread 03-13-2014, 05:33 PM
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

As to the subject of aspects, and why this aspect but not that one - you have to go back to the numerology to understand. The zodiac is 360 degrees, and dividing this circle by various factors brings us to the aspects. The number "2" for instance is about balance, opposition, opposing polarities. It is 2-dimensional, black and white, with no grey. Thus dividing the 360 degree circle by two gets the 180 degree aspect, the opposition, which reflects those polarities.
Dividing by 4 gets the 90-degree aspect, the square. A figure with four points is the first one that can be represented in the 3rd dimension of reality, and the number "4" represents manifestation, the initial manifestation of energy into the physical world. While squares to many beginners represent only struggle or conflict, they are the impetus that provides for moving of energy from one area to another. If someone is punching you in the face, you move out of the way. You punch back. You kick them in the knee. You cover your head and cower in the corner. NOBODY just stands there and does absolutely nothing, without expression, without reaction. The square is the fist - your reaction is the impetus to movement. Squares prompt us to react, move, adapt - and thus new realities are born, they manifest with the number 4.
Dividing the circle into different factors, or adding one factor with another is how we arrive at the aspects. The quincunx, or inconjunct, is 150 degrees. It is not formed by dividing the circle evenly, but by adding factors. A quincunx is considered a difficult aspect because the two planets or points involved share nothing - different elements, different modes, different genders. The only way to handle it is to compromise and find new avenues to handle the energy. Once learned, this skill can now be applied to all spheres of life, not just the one the aspect originally involved. This is why it is considered a spiritual aspect. It is formed by adding a square (90) with a sextile (60) - conflict + opportunity ; manifestation (4) + growth/adaptation (6).
I'm not going to go through them all but you get the idea.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 05:36 PM
junoisuppose junoisuppose is offline
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

Linking two of the themes that have appeared in this thread, buddhism teaches us that we should approach things with a beginner's mind, seeing things as if we were seeing them for the first time because we have never actually experienced this thing in this way at this moment in time before.

Kind of relevant.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 05:42 PM
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mdinaz mdinaz is offline
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

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ooh meany gemini comment (I read your date of birth yesterday).

Personally I think we should encourage everyone to study astrology, it'll lead to a more harmonious world where we respect all the differences between the signs and different qualities as equal, and people will be happier because they understand the positive qualities of the transits they are going through and might see the things they are facing as fated.

Perhaps we should have graded forums like school and advanced forums where old timers can debate difficult questions, and people with very obscure interests can discuss those in shady corners.

Personally I didn't think that the OP was a con suggesting that astrology is rubbish, although those posts do appear from time to time, so I think you're projecting what his suggestion was. Even if he was suggesting such a thing, personally, I think the best approach is to answer, in a simple way, showing that astrology is in fact valid and can answer the question posed.

Also these forums show up in a google search. Anyone just beginning in astrology looking for answers to such questions would be directed here, and so why not provide them with the answers?

IMO if you don't think the question is worth answering don't bother answering it, move on to a question that is more interesting to you.

(Although I did think your original comment was quite funny).
My "meany-ness" doesn't come from Gemini, it comes from my Virgo Mars conjunct Uranus and Pluto all square the Sun, which can make me a very mean and vicious b@stard indeed. Having Sun and Mercury in Gemini square Uranus gives me a quick wit and yes, I can make some sharp pointed comments. Lucky for me I learned to deal with that years ago and my temper is 1/10th of what it used to be. But still, some days, some people ...

Anyway, the OP has another post on here which suggested exactly what I mentioned here and I've been replying on both so my mistake for bringing it up on the wrong post. However what I said still stands. This discussion does come up from time to time and we astrologers need to be prepared for it as the vitriol and contempt that often comes our way cannot be reasoned with and sometimes you just have to walk away and realize the problem is with them, not you. Some people react this way because the very idea that they are responsible for their lives scares the cr@p out of them and they react violently at the suggestion that they have to fix something within themselves. It is easier to blame the world, for them, than take responsibility.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 09:55 PM
junoisuppose junoisuppose is offline
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

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My "meany-ness" doesn't come from Gemini, it comes from my Virgo Mars conjunct Uranus and Pluto all square the Sun, which can make me a very mean and vicious b@stard indeed. Having Sun and Mercury in Gemini square Uranus gives me a quick wit and yes, I can make some sharp pointed comments. Lucky for me I learned to deal with that years ago and my temper is 1/10th of what it used to be. But still, some days, some people ...
Haha! I see.

Quote:
Anyway, the OP has another post on here which suggested exactly what I mentioned here and I've been replying on both so my mistake for bringing it up on the wrong post. However what I said still stands. This discussion does come up from time to time and we astrologers need to be prepared for it as the vitriol and contempt that often comes our way cannot be reasoned with and sometimes you just have to walk away and realize the problem is with them, not you. Some people react this way because the very idea that they are responsible for their lives scares the cr@p out of them and they react violently at the suggestion that they have to fix something within themselves. It is easier to blame the world, for them, than take responsibility.
Hmmm. Yes there are lots of people out there who want to save us from our ridiculous beliefs and prove to us that we're wasting our time and deluded to be following astrology. & also the trouble is I can't figure out any scientific reason why astrology works - I mean if our solar system is just one out of many in the universe then why should the rotation of our planets around our sky reflect the things that happen to us here? I just know that it does...
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Unread 03-13-2014, 10:15 PM
junoisuppose junoisuppose is offline
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

Ah, yes I've just looked at his other posts, and quoting of Linda Goodman
Apologies for saying that you were projecting - turns out that was me!

& also I apologise for attributing meanness to gemini, and committing what seems to be a cardinal sin on this forum of attributing characteristics to someone just because of their sun sign, and probably offending many geminis in the process. I was going to delete that part but you had already replied. I have been in a 9 year on off fight with a gemini (5th June 1973) and your comment reminded me of him and sounded like something he would say so I was painting all geminis with a broad brush just because I'm annoyed with him. He has sun square mars in pisces and mercury in cancer, but square pluto in libra, & sometimes his words really sting.

Last edited by junoisuppose; 03-15-2014 at 02:01 AM.
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Unread 03-13-2014, 10:42 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

The 30-330 degree angles are "inconjunct". They are not aspects in the old sense of the word. "Aspect" means to "look upon", (from Latin aspectus "a seeing, looking at, sight, view, countenance, appearance,") and these signs "cannot see each other" because their angles do not result from division of the circle by a whole number (i.e., 30, 150, 210, 330).

The conjunction, opposition, trine, square and sextile result from division of the circle by 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. These angles, using 0 Aries as the reference point, yield angles that coincide with 0 degrees of Libra, Leo, Cancer and Gemini (and their opposites). They are the major aspects. Division by 5, while going evenly into 360 (angle = 72) does not correspond with 0 degrees of a sign, and similarly with division by 7 (not a whole number), 8, etc.

The OP is apparently not aware that such recent (400 years ago, near the close of the time when astrology was "acceptable" in Europe), and such great astrologers as Morin were using a twelve-fold division of the zodiac: see Book 16 of Astrologia Gallica. (Which leaves Linda Goodman looking like what she was. Recall that it was Eve who gave us the Apple. If Satan ever gets wind of how I feel about Linda Goodman, he will condemn me to an Eternity in Hell reading her books.) If you want to learn astrology, begin at the beginning -- read authors who wrote prior to 1700. Ptolemy is much-maligned, but regardless he provides a good point of beginning; he explains the logic of astrology, which is logic but different in quality from our everyday logic. Astrological logic is founded upon analogy. Read "A History of Horoscopic Astrology" by James Holden to understand the development of the art.

Last edited by greybeard; 03-13-2014 at 10:44 PM.
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

No hard aspect can lie between adjacent signs...? (the 45 is plenty hard and its progeny, the 22.5, no slouch).

Shame that such allegiance to old frends like sign-based astrology (helpful as a learning aid initially) almost compels ongoing ignor-ance of minor aspects.

Hankering for the impression of a more scientific basis...? (a focus on aspects first, instead of metaphors and analogies, might satisfy, reports this non-scientist who overcame roughly similar disenchantments).
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Re: Why signs with conflicting traits don't aspect each other hard IG Cap and Aquariu

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The 30-330 degree angles are "inconjunct". They are not aspects in the old sense of the word. "Aspect" means to "look upon", (from Latin aspectus "a seeing, looking at, sight, view, countenance, appearance,") and these signs "cannot see each other" because their angles do not result from division of the circle by a whole number (i.e., 30, 150, 210, 330).

The conjunction, opposition, trine, square and sextile result from division of the circle by 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. These angles, using 0 Aries as the reference point, yield angles that coincide with 0 degrees of Libra, Leo, Cancer and Gemini (and their opposites). They are the major aspects. Division by 5, while going evenly into 360 (angle = 72) does not correspond with 0 degrees of a sign, and similarly with division by 7 (not a whole number), 8, etc.
I've been thinking about this. & I'll preface this by saying that in no way am I intending to be so arrogant as to say that astrology that has been used for hundreds of years is wrong. I agree with the aspects that we use. I know from experience that they work as described.

What I can't get my head around is the literal idea of 'look upon', in the physical sense.

If we were at a dinner party or a group meeting where 12 people are sitting in a circle, then yes the person we will focus most on is the person directly opposite us, because they are directly in our eye line, even if they are a little far away and difficult to hear. Perhaps someone we would notice even more is someone who comes to sit in our chair, sitting on top of us, a conjunction.

If someone is sitting and facing at right angles to us we will not see their facial expression clearly, unless they turn towards us, so that is a little like the square, going in conflicting directions and requiring effort to work together (although that doesn't include what mdinaz said about the square being energising).

OK so far, but the people we would see most clearly after that would be the people either side of the person opposite, that is the people at 150 degrees, but the concept of aspects says that we don't look upon them?

And it would be easy for us to hear the comments of the people on either side of us, even if without turning our head towards them.

I guess what I'm saying is that this concept of 'looking upon' doesn't help me when thinking about aspects.

Also the semi-sextile 30 degrees results from the division of the circle by 12.

& the 22.5 mentioned by Krewster is new to me. I hadn't heard of that before. I'll have to keep an eye out for it.
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