Venus and Saturn

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anca

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gaer said:
Am I the same person I was when I was five, fifteen or twenty-five? If you are talking about DNA, yes.

DNA is designed to be unique but it changes over time, it gets damaged. DNA duplication is not using the original DNA but always the previous copy which accumulates damage over time, a process linked to ageing. However we have a gene which is responsible with the repair work (what a wonderful and amazing nature...) but the damage in time becomes so extensive that damage-repair-cells cannot carry the work anymore.
Anyway, with nanotechnology around the corner, maybe 30-40 years from now you will be free gaer to say that you have the same DNA since you were born.
Not to be entirely off the topic, I was wondering which planet, if any, might control processes at a cell level. Sun? Pluto?
 
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anca

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I'm going to add a few things to my previous post.

The stem cells are the only ones which duplicate using always the original DNA.

I was thinking of Pluto being able of going into depth (cell level?) or Sun being the life force...
 
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gaer

Well-known member
anca said:
You wish gaer. DNA is designed to be unique but it changes over time, it gets damaged. DNA duplication is not using the original DNA but always the previous copy which accumulates damage over time, a process linked to ageing. However we have a gene which is responsible with the repair work (what a wonderful and amazing nature...) but the damage in time becomes so extensive that damage-repair-cells cannot carry the work anymore.
I actually knew some of that. I was being "simplistic". I should have said that the "closest" we come to remaining the same might be our genetic makeup, and even that may be an over-statement. :)

G
 

anca

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wayne penner said:
The great astrologer C E O Carter considered the favorable aspects of Venus and Saturn to be the best possible of all the major aspects, as did Alan Leo.

Just wondered if anyone else has a comment or two about this important aspect.

I just remembered, the famous serial killer Jeffry Dahmer (North American forum members heard about him for sure) had a beautiful Venus trine Saturn. And other beautiful ones: Moon trine Uranus, Jupiter trine Pluto...:34:
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
I guess if a serial killer has venus trine saturn in the chart that would put in dispute Alan Leo's alleged assertion of the aspect being one of the best- truly Wayne- I am sitting here with Alan Leos books open on my desk. What page are YOU on?
If you believe the ancients, there can be NO good aspect to Saturn- from any celestial body.
If you take the modern view, anything is possible vis a vis *interpretation* of aspects. So Wayne- What kind of astrologer are you?
And what page of Alan Leos books are you referring to in the above statement? lillyjgc
 

wayne penner

Well-known member
lillyjgc said:
I guess if a serial killer has venus trine saturn in the chart that would put in dispute Alan Leo's alleged assertion of the aspect being one of the best- truly Wayne- I am sitting here with Alan Leos books open on my desk. What page are YOU on?
If you believe the ancients, there can be NO good aspect to Saturn- from any celestial body.
If you take the modern view, anything is possible vis a vis *interpretation* of aspects. So Wayne- What kind of astrologer are you?
And what page of Alan Leos books are you referring to in the above statement? lillyjgc

I am quoting from a copy of Astrologer's Magazine that Leo edited in the 1890's. I managed to pick up some at a yard sale in England some years ago. I admit I am quoting from memory though.

As for Dahmer, I do not have a time of birth for him, but Moon was probably square Saturn and Sun and Mercury were in square to Pluto, very isolating aspects. Venus was also in square to Uranus, which can sometimes be seriously twisted in a weak chart. I expect that he had many of the good qualities of Venus trine Saturn in his psychological makeup, which may account for why it took so long to find him.
 
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Yoi

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wayne penner said:
Shining Ray, well it's nice to know that Liz Green agrees with me.

Externally, Saturn causes separation in relationships on many levels, the most obvious being physical death, although Saturn square Moon is a more difficult position, the orphan's aspect, and often causes hardship in early life unless Jupiter comes to the aid of the Moon.

Hey, I have Moon-square-Saturn. It's part of a T-square with Neptune. It hasn't exactly been a ball of laughs but I don't think it's quite as bad as you make out. I mean sure we were really poor when I was young and my parents are rather severe and strict but to the best of their ability they (and everyone else) spoilt and protected me (OK, that was probably more to do with Jupiter in 4th house and Jupiter-trine-Venus and Venus-trine-Mars more than anything else). And one could say it is the expectations of my parents which pushed me into becoming such an overachiever. Mars conjunct Jupiter probably helped there too though. OTOH I do have Jupiter-square-Sun and it's much tighter (about an orb of 2) than the Moon-square-Saturn which has an orb of about 7.

Ah, excessive pessimism and excessive optimism together. Hey, it all balances out in the end :) Hmm...no wonder I seem to bounce between the two extremes. But fortunately the optimism is stronger :)

Anyway, the point is, other elements of the chart can help alleviate bad aspects, even horrible ones like a Moon-Saturn-Neptune T-square. So you can't predict things based on a single aspect but have to look at a whole chart.

If you just look at the Moon-square-Saturn you might say that my parents were very strict, severe, and childhood was tough. Which it was, in many ways. However there are other elements of the chart which lead to a lot of cossetting. Which is also true. In fact it may be that the Moon-square-Saturn would be a fortunate thing for me in the end as without it, my natural excessive optimism (Jupiter-square-Sun) and tendency to be spoilt because of the charm from (Venus-trine-Mars and Venus-trine-Jupiter) might go way overboard. One could say in the end it provides a balance to the other parts of my chart. I think the Moon-square-Saturn helped push me into being an overachiever. Also it, along with the fact that Venus is in Capricorn helps steady my somewhat fickle emotions (Sag Sun, Moon in Gemini, 1st house - fickleness and changeability are in my character. Venus trine Mars isn't exactly known for its steadiness either).

Another example of how other elements in your chart can help alleviate the problematic aspects is you call Moon-square-Saturn the orphan's aspect. I was very nearly abandoned by my parents as a baby due to political considerations and poverty in my home country. However, some fortunate strokes of luck (Sun-square-Jupiter, Venus-trine-Jupiter, maybe even Sun conjunct PoF I guess) led to me not only being not abandoned by brought to a developed country where my life is magnitudes better than it would have been in my home country. Now, thanks to the hard labour of my parents and my own I live in a very comfortable middle-class lifestyle when I was born in poverty and danger. And as I said, it is possible the suffering from the Moon-Saturn-Neptune helped provide me with a sense of perspective and seriousness to balance the other parts of my chart.
 
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lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Yoi, Now this is interesting (because it's *real*)...I appreciate the points you are making above in relation to the way aspects to any planet can really alter/flavour the expression of the sign placement.
I personally think my venus scorpio is very strongly placed with positive aspects to it.It IS within orb of my saturn also in scorpio- but Saturn is Lord of the Geniture in my chart- with no negative aspects to it whatsoever, so i see that saturn and venus play a strong and productive role in my life (which has not been at all *easY, but I attribute the difficulties to squares elsewhere in the chart.
Saturn is always the *taskmaster* and venus rules my sun...yes I am very hardworking and the areas of my work have been both venusian and saturnian..I have very many friends that extend back 30 years, another feature of the enduring nature of venus in scorpio (in h11).
I'm sure a uranus square or opposition to my venus would have resulted in a very much harder and more *depraved* (your word, Wayne) life than the one I have had so far.
Wayne: Out of interest, what aspects do YOU have to your scorpio venus?
[misquoting from a *magazine* from the 1890's]
 
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wayne penner

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Yoi said:
Hey, I have Moon-square-Saturn. It's part of a T-square with Neptune. It hasn't exactly been a ball of laughs but I don't think it's quite as bad as you make out. I mean sure we were really poor when I was young and my parents are rather severe and strict but to the best of their ability they (and everyone else) spoilt and protected me (OK, that was probably more to do with Jupiter in 4th house and Jupiter-trine-Venus and Venus-trine-Mars more than anything else). And one could say it is the expectations of my parents which pushed me into becoming such an overachiever. Mars conjunct Jupiter probably helped there too though. OTOH I do have Jupiter-square-Sun and it's much tighter (about an orb of 2) than the Moon-square-Saturn which has an orb of about 7.

Ah, excessive pessimism and excessive optimism together. Hey, it all balances out in the end :) Hmm...no wonder I seem to bounce between the two extremes. But fortunately the optimism is stronger :)

Anyway, the point is, other elements of the chart can help alleviate bad aspects, even horrible ones like a Moon-Saturn-Neptune T-square. So you can't predict things based on a single aspect but have to look at a whole chart.

If you just look at the Moon-square-Saturn you might say that my parents were very strict, severe, and childhood was tough. Which it was, in many ways. However there are other elements of the chart which lead to a lot of cossetting. Which is also true. In fact it may be that the Moon-square-Saturn would be a fortunate thing for me in the end as without it, my natural excessive optimism (Jupiter-square-Sun) and tendency to be spoilt because of the charm from (Venus-trine-Mars and Venus-trine-Jupiter) might go way overboard. One could say in the end it provides a balance to the other parts of my chart. I think the Moon-square-Saturn helped push me into being an overachiever. Also it, along with the fact that Venus is in Capricorn helps steady my somewhat fickle emotions (Sag Sun, Moon in Gemini, 1st house - fickleness and changeability are in my character. Venus trine Mars isn't exactly known for its steadiness either).

Another example of how other elements in your chart can help alleviate the problematic aspects is you call Moon-square-Saturn the orphan's aspect. I was very nearly abandoned by my parents as a baby due to political considerations and poverty in my home country. However, some fortunate strokes of luck (Sun-square-Jupiter, Venus-trine-Jupiter, maybe even Sun conjunct PoF I guess) led to me not only being not abandoned by brought to a developed country where my life is magnitudes better than it would have been in my home country. Now, thanks to the hard labour of my parents and my own I live in a very comfortable middle-class lifestyle when I was born in poverty and danger. And as I said, it is possible the suffering from the Moon-Saturn-Neptune helped provide me with a sense of perspective and seriousness to balance the other parts of my chart.

Well I think attitude has a lot to do with one's experience of life, and the occultists would argue that it is the only thing.

Moon square Saturn is extremely difficult, especially in early life when the sense of vulnerability is highest. It always shows a hard upbringing, even in the charts of kings like Louis 14th of France, who also had the square to Venus. His was a terribly precarious upbringing and he went on to become a tyrant, although that was acceptable in his time.

In more modern times, Marilyn Monroe had a Moon/Saturn/ Neptune T-square also, with Neptune in the 1st. Her early childhood was very rough, but again she managed to develop a wonderful attitude that charmed the entire world.

It is not your chart but your view of life that makes the difference ... as Shakespeare said, "The fault, dear Brutus, in not in our stars but in ourselves".
 

wayne penner

Well-known member
lillyjgc said:
Yoi, Now this is interesting (because it's *real*)...I appreciate the points you are making above in relation to the way aspects to any planet can really alter/flavour the expression of the sign placement.
I personally think my venus scorpio is very strongly placed with positive aspects to it.It IS within orb of my saturn also in scorpio- but Saturn is Lord of the Geniture in my chart- with no negative aspects to it whatsoever, so i see that saturn and venus play a strong and productive role in my life (which has not been at all *easY, but I attribute the difficulties to squares elsewhere in the chart.
Saturn is always the *taskmaster* and venus rules my sun...yes I am very hardworking and the areas of my work have been both venusian and saturnian..I have very many friends that extend back 30 years, another feature of the enduring nature of venus in scorpio (in h11).
I'm sure a uranus square or opposition to my venus would have resulted in a very much harder and more *depraved* (your word, Wayne) life than the one I have had so far.
Wayne: Out of interest, what aspects do YOU have to your scorpio venus?
As far as your misquoting from a *magazine* from the 1890's...are you for real? I have the books right here in front of me and I will not let you get away with taking the words out of context of a teacher whom I truly do respect -There is no such statement in any of the actual textbooks that Leo wrote that substantiates your statement.If there are, please direct me to them.
I am not *picking a fight* with you- I am a pacifist.(Ghandi's venus is exactly the same degree as mine BTW- but without the negative aspects. ). I have merely gone to some pains to point out that you are
a) misquoting a source
b) unwilling to accept that aspects matter.
c) disputing everything that anyone else proffers as *personal experience*
d) not providing any evidence to support anything you say (except quotes from CEO Carter, which we can only hope are actual quotes and not your own *interpretation*)
e) making derogatory remarks about other people's opinions as opposed to commenting... (Is this why you have been banned from another astrology forum recently????)
Lillyjgc

I do not consider Scorpio as depraved. I did not say it was. I don't believe it is. I said, "Larry Flynt considers himself depraved".

Also, I do not dispute others' experiences only their astrology when it is discordant with the truth as I see it.

As for The Astrologer's Magazine, it was the most important astrologers' periodical in England up until about 1915 I think. I still have some of them somewhere. It's a good mag and there were some excellent astrologers who wrote for it, including Carter, A C Libra, and I think even one of the Raphaels. I did not misquote Leo, or Carter. I quoted from memory, as I usually do. I cannot remember Leo's exact words however, I will admit that, only that he considered Venus trine Saturn the best aspect. Carter by the way considered Mars square Jupiter the worst aspect.
 
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Yoi

Well-known member
wayne penner said:
Well I think attitude has a lot to do with one's experience of life, and the occultists would argue that it is the only thing.

Moon square Saturn is extremely difficult, especially in early life when the sense of vulnerability is highest. It always shows a hard upbringing, even in the charts of kings like Louis 14th of France, who also had the square to Venus. His was a terribly precarious upbringing and he went on to become a tyrant, although that was acceptable in his time.

In more modern times, Marilyn Monroe had a Moon/Saturn/ Neptune T-square also, with Neptune in the 1st. Her early childhood was very rough, but again she managed to develop a wonderful attitude that charmed the entire world.

It is not your chart but your view of life that makes the difference ... as Shakespeare said, "The fault, dear Brutus, in not in our stars but in ourselves".

Woohoo! Someone with the same aspect pattern as me. Oh wait, she committed suicide. Hmm...

I agree that attitude does have a lot to do with it, but shouldn't that be determined by your chart as well? For example I suspect Sun-square-Jupiter has a lot to do with my ability to be optimistic even in the case of the Moon-Saturn-Neptune T-square.

You know I just had a look at Marilyn Monroe's chart and her Moon-Saturn-Neptune T-square is very similar to mine. My T-square is also in the angular houses (well due to an interception Saturn is in the 5th instead of 4th). She also has a Jupiter-sextile-Venus while I have a Jupiter-trine-Venus. We both have "funnel" charts though my funnel is the Moon in 1st and hers is the retrograde Saturn in the 4th. On the whole though I think my chart is much more "forceful" than hers as I have Jupiter-square-Sun, Jupiter-conjunct-Mars, Mars-square-Ascendant, Mars-conjunct-NN and Mars semisquare Pluto which are all "battling" aspects. The squares, maybe too much. My Venus is also strengthened by a trine with the Moon and my Moon with a trine to Pluto. Her chart looks a lot "gentler" than mine. My chart is basically divided into a very gentle (maybe too gentle) half which does look a lot like Marilyn Monroe's and a very forceful (maybe too forceful) half.
 
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wayne penner

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Yoi said:
Woohoo! Someone with the same aspect pattern as me. Oh wait, she committed suicide. Hmm...

I agree that attitude does have a lot to do with it, but shouldn't that be determined by your chart as well? For example I suspect Sun-square-Jupiter has a lot to do with my ability to be optimistic even in the case of the Moon-Saturn-Neptune T-square.

Yoi it seems to me there is an interplay between the inner life and the outer and that as we grow older and, hopefully, become more mature, we are less affected by our charts and more in control of our "destiny", a word I try to use carefully. Perhaps repeating mistakes that are indicated in the chart may eventually gets it into our heads that we should stop repeating mistakes so that externals no longer have to materialize. I really don't know for sure, but that is my feeling.

As for the beautiful Marilyn, it is questionable as to whether she did in fact commit suicide. I do believe she suffered severe depression, especially as she was an icon of beauty who whas also lonely and friendless. Terribly sad.

In any case suicide is a difficult issue in the chart as people commit suicide for different reasons, some to "escape", others because they have just given up on life, and perhaps some who just do so on impulse.

You could write an entire book on the astrology of suicide, although who would read it?

BTW Micheal J Fox also has the T-square Moon/Saturn/Neptune, as does the actor Anthony Hopkins.
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
wayne:
So far in your posts you have made the following assertions:
You have said" I would not go so far as to say that venus in pisces square saturn is quite as beneficial as say venus in Virgo"

Well that's very strange, as at least in pisces, venus has dignity. Venus has no dignity in Mercury's sign virgo, so why would a square between pisces venus and saturn be less beneficial?

You go on to say that " venus in capricorn is not by any means a difficult position"...venus delighting in Saturn? Well that's news to me.

Another generalisation: "I think venus is probably weakest in scorpio in that there are sexual overtones always even to friendships".
Maybe in yours. I haven't had this problem.

Another beauty: " mercury and saturn are favourable in outcome even in square because the two have so much in common". Yes Air and Earth have so much in common. Mercury is fast, saturn is slow...(as I understand it, mercury square saturn impedes mental abilities usually..and eyesight and hearing.....
"Mercury and jupiter have nothing in common"
Except for one thing, Wayne- Mercury rules house 3 and jupiter ruling house 9 is a higher octave of mercury. Together mercury and jupiter generate HUMOUR.

You say "Larry Flynt the publisher of the pornographic magazine has this position* and considers himself completely depraved.." (* venus in scorpio)
Later I asked you "Are you suggesting the placement of venus in scorpio causes depravity?" To which you answered *yes*.

Strangely you claim that there is a "certain graphic honesty with this position" Truly? I was pretty sure that scorpio was a secretive sign....
Further along you contradict yourself:
"Even the trine and sextile of venus and saturn can be evil in the sense that they limit the sense of being lovable"...Two lines later, you say "...when in fact the trine and sextile are the most beneficial aspects....and you would have us believe that Alan Leo supports your claim. Not in any of the books I have open here....
you describe venus in scorpio as ice...ruled by mars of the fire family...
Lillyjgc
 
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gaer

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One thing should be cleared up:

It is common thinking for modern astrologers to refer to

Uranus, Neptune and Pluto as the "higher octave" of Mercury, Venus and Mars.

Since these modern rulers are associated with Aquarius, Pisces and Scorpio, it is not unreasonable to associate Jupiter, as the tradional ruler of Pisces, as representing the higher octave of Venus.

So while I agree that Jupiter is not a "higher octave" of Mercury, according to the usual use of "higher octave", I believe Lilly simply used the wrong word in haste.

We are in danger of splitting hairs over terms rather than looking for the bigger picture.

What is more important is that Mercury and Jupiter do indeed have many things in common from the standpoint that they mirror each other, which is also true of Venus and Mars.

This is why many have pointed out that planets that rule opposite signs often work together so well, dynamically, when they are balanced in trines (and to a lesser extent in sextiles).

This is also the basis of the logic that asserts that Venus and Saturn, so opposite in nature, are supportive when in trine or sextile. :)

g
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Thanks Gaer, for that correction...Yes, I did use the term *higher octave* incorrectly...The point I was trying to make, is that mercury rules house 3 - the house of the mind, and jupiter rules h9- the house of the *higher mind*..In that way I see them being connected, that jupiter expands in h9 on the matters of mercury in house 3...*Higher octave* is a technical term, but I wasn't meaning it in that way, as you have rightly explained. Thanks and cheers, Lillyjgc
 
Too many personal comments are being made on this thread to one another. Continue to debate about the aspect of Venus/Saturn but leave personal comments out of the discussion. Wayne, complaints have been received about you if you wish to remain at the forum, please respect the other members opinions, even though you may not agree with them.

The thread will be closed if there are any more personal comments which have nothing to do with the original topic.
 
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