Venus and Saturn

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Neptune Rising

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I looked at my synastry with a friend of mine. We were 'romantic' for about 3 months but have known each other about 5 or so years.

His Saturn conjunct my Venus, and my Saturn square his Venus. The relationship never really got off the ground, even though he would be the perfect partner otherwise. We do seem to stick by each other platonically for all these years. Ha ha, even composite, Saturn sesquiquadrate Venus! It was never meant to be. But I know, in desperate times I can rely on him, and I would support him if need be.

Natally he has Venus trine Saturn, I have Venus inconjunct Saturn.

NR
 
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wayne penner

Well-known member
jagetoile said:
wayne penner, venus is weakest in Scorpio because it's traditionally in "detriment", not necessarily in the overtone of sex. unless you explain this point with a concret convincing statistically solid proof you're full of arguments which are like the water in in a basket, they begin to leak out everywhere now:86:

I was actually aware that Venus is in detriment in Scorpio ...

There is a reason of course, the sign and planet have really nothing in common and Venuus will have difficulty expressing itself through Fixed Water, even though it delights in Cancer and Pisces.

The sexual side of Scorpio will often be hard to control, once again Gandhi wrote about this as the most difficult side of his nature. Larry Flynt, the publisher of the pornographic magazine has this position, and considers himself completely depraved. There is a certain graphic honesty with this position.

I wonder what you mean by "concret convincing statistically solid proof". Astrology has never been amenable to statistics, with some apology to Gauqualin, and I would like to know what astrological position or aspect can be explained using "concret convincing statistically solid proof".
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Wayne, Are you suggesting the placement of venus in scorpio causes depravity.....
No mention of the deep loyalties and abiding love that comes with this placement?
I think what Jag is suggesting is that you are overgeneralising..Areyou seriously suggesting that the passion of scorpio and the loving nature of venus have no place together>?
Once again, you are making rash statements..*and there are sexual overtones always to friendships* HUH?????
lillyjgc
 

wayne penner

Well-known member
charmvirgo said:
I have Saturn in Capricorn square Venus in Libra, with an orb of 1.31 degrees separating.

Both Saturn and Venus are unaspected by any other planet, although there is a lovely t-square with BML in Cancer in very close orb of less than 1 degree to both (and my ascendant could be somewhere around Capricorn, perhaps conj Saturn).

I have never had any relationship ever and have lacked any friendships too.
Financially things have always been bad. It's always raining on my side of the street.:(

I am a very shy and reserved person.
I don't really believe in relationships, they are suffocating to me, I would prefer a friendship. Closeness and trust takes a long time to develop, if I ever got that far.

This sounds like a typical Venus Saturn experience, although as you point out you are shy and reserved. My point would be that if you can become less shy and reserved you might find that relationships become easier and more fulfilling. I would also gently suggest that the "feeling" of being poor actually will bring about the condition while a cultivation of optimism and well-being and charity toward others will improve material fortunes.

Once again, we may not be able to alter what happens to us but we can adjust our attitude toward our fate. And fate it is. But we are not fated to be fated.

I do think that those with this aspect, and Moon square Saturn, always benefit greatly by developing a good sense of humor and not taking themselves too seriously, especially with the latter aspect. With Saturn aspects there always seems to be a certain selfishness in the character, a "what's in it for me" attitude, getting before giving, calculating the returns on every transaction before it takes place. While in the business sphere this may not be a bad thing, it is less successful when dealing with friends or lovers. Many great business leaders in history have had the square, perhaps testimony for the square to suspend feeling and emotion when making difficult business decisions.

A good example of the higher tone of Venus square Saturn is Mother Theresa, who really sacrificed the conventional pleasures of life to minister to the poor.

Gaer we're really not at odds in our thinking. The structure that Saturn gives is sometimes painful, especially by hard aspect, and Saturn is a hard task-master at times.
 
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wayne penner

Well-known member
Shining Ray, well it's nice to know that Liz Green agrees with me.

Externally, Saturn causes separation in relationships on many levels, the most obvious being physical death, although Saturn square Moon is a more difficult position, the orphan's aspect, and often causes hardship in early life unless Jupiter comes to the aid of the Moon.

With Saturn Venus psychological separations are more common, where there is a gradual separation of interest that almost feels unstoppable and both parties simply drift apart until there is nothing left.

Even the trine and sextile of Venus and Saturn can be evil in the sense that they limit the sense of being lovable, with all that that entails.

I think that we have all agreed that this aspect is difficult, although I am puzzled why the emphasis on this thread has been on the bad aspects when in fact the trine and sextile ar the most beneficial, for the character at least, but there has been hardly any discussion of the trine or sextile. As Mr. Spock would say, "Fascinating".
 

gaer

Well-known member
Shining Ray said:
Here is Liz Greene's interpretation of the aspect, although I might have posted this before. :rolleyes: Here is again anyway. :)
Thank you for posting this. As I read through it, I considered the whole thing very carefully, and I think there is much truth in it.

However, Liz Greene gives us all a "get out of jail free" card, and it's right at the beginning:
Saturnian contacts to Venus, when they occur in the charts of those who are not predisposed towards introspection or self-understanding, are some of the most painful contacts to deal with.
That's important. The basic root of all the problems is fear. Fear of not being loved. Fear of not being worthy of being loved.

It is just like abuse. There are two ways to go, and unfortunately we see too much of the first path:

1) The person who has been abused remains deeply angry and because of fear and anger goes on to abuse other people. (This is what I see most often, and it's truly sad.)

2) The person who has been abused breaks the pattern of abuse through self-examination and a huge amount of emtional growth. It takes work, it takes honesty, and it takes courage.

The "wound" caused by or symbolized by a difficult aspect between Venus and Saturn does, in my opinion, often (and perhaps usually) shows a child who grows up feeling unloved. The reasons for this are without end.

I think we always need to keep in mind that the natal chart is the world through the eyes of the "native". In other words, when I was young, I perceived my father as being cold, distant, not the dad I wanted. But this was not my father. It was how I saw him.

Later in life, I realized that he had great difficulty showing his emotions (Moon square Venus) but behind the shell (double Cancer), there was an incredible amount of love, quiet, restrained but 100% dependable. (Saturn trine Moon).

We became VERY close after my Saturn return. I realized that he had never criticized me, never tried to run my life, always was there whenever I was in trouble, and the love was there. Always. But, you see, I was not able to see it as a child. I wanted it the way I wanted it.

So this how the emotions CAN be crippled, CAN become those of a small child who does not get what s/he wants or needs. Again, without introspection and self-understanding, it can indeed by crippling.

But the important thing is that it does not HAVE to be. We always have choices. Whether we use them or not is quite a different story. ;)

Gaer
 

wayne penner

Well-known member
lillyjgc said:
Wayne, Are you suggesting the placement of venus in scorpio causes depravity.....
No mention of the deep loyalties and abiding love that comes with this placement?
I think what Jag is suggesting is that you are overgeneralising..Areyou seriously suggesting that the passion of scorpio and the loving nature of venus have no place together>?
Once again, you are making rash statements..*and there are sexual overtones always to friendships* HUH?????
lillyjgc

Yes.

And I don't make rash statements that are untrue. Venus in Scorpio must always exercise considerable self-control over the sexual impulses that the sign continually creates. Not wishing to be pedantic but there are both overtones and undertones to this position. The "passion" of Scorpio that you speak of is really an intensity of emotion and only becomes passion with Venus or Mars in aspect. You might recall that Fixed Water is ice. It is not hot, it is cold.
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Wayne, if fixed water is cold, where do you get the depravity part from????
I had a friend with her venus in scorpio- she hadnt had sex- BY CHOICE- for over 30 years....Her venus in scorpio was directed to study as venus ruled her ninth...I see no substance to what you are saying...way too general and far off the mark. Lillyjgc
 

gaer

Well-known member
wayne penner said:
The structure that Saturn gives is sometimes painful, especially by hard aspect, and Saturn is a hard task-master at times.
Definitely. I have taken great pains in this discussion to show what I believe is true. The greater the obstacle, the greater the potential for growth is.

It may be that those of us who overcome the major difficulties of these hard aspects are in the minority, but if we do, I think we have gained something huge. :)

G
 

wayne penner

Well-known member
lillyjgc said:
Wayne, if fixed water is cold, where do you get the depravity part from????
I had a friend with her venus in scorpio- she hadnt had sex- BY CHOICE- for over 30 years....Her venus in scorpio was directed to study as venus ruled her ninth...I see no substance to what you are saying...way too general and far off the mark. Lillyjgc

Scorpio as a sign is not "depraved", not a word I would use to describe the sign. It plumbs the depths if you will, and certainly explores the depths of human experience, and most certainly Pluto, which I associate with the sign though I argue that it does not "rule", can most certainly become depraved in the most monstrous way. Afflictions to planets in Scorpio, especially from Aquarius, can indicate the most vile and disgusting acts.

I would also point out that of the Water signs, in nature Pisces is the Mutable rythmic sea, Cardinal Cancer represents the ongoing river and Scorpio is the fixed water of the lake, and there is no end to the depth of the lake.

Venus is unhappy in Scorpio, discontented and restless, a constant longing for the purity of the river or the sea, which is why Venus delights so in Cancer and Pisces.

Venus in Scorpio does have a chance of plumbing the spiritual depths also. You will see two main types with this position, the low types who are addicted to sex, prostitution, pornography and so on, and the high who exhibit the great self-control of the Fixed sign and who aspire to be more like the eagle and less like the scorpion, although both creatures have their own dignity.

That you see no depth in what I am saying is not my concern. I simply talk about what I know to be true.
 
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wayne penner

Well-known member
lillyjgc said:
Here's a link...this page has a variety of interpretations of venus in scorpio...no-one mentions depravity but the link will take you to cafeastrology, and a few other sites that deal with the aspect...

http://www.futurescopes.com/venus/258/venus-scorpio

lillyjgc

Just so we can get this over with, and I rarely discuss my own chart because it is boring, but I have Venus in Scorpio, and I am fairly clear on the meaning of the position.
 

wayne penner

Well-known member
gaer said:
Definitely. I have taken great pains in this discussion to show what I believe is true. The greater the obstacle, the greater the potential for growth is.

It may be that those of us who overcome the major difficulties of these hard aspects are in the minority, but if we do, I think we have gained something huge. :)

G

Gaer, I am not trying to be argumentative but I believe that language should be precise. Also I do not wish to be misunderstood.

I do not believe that we can overcome or avoid the difficulties in our chart but rather that we can adapt to cicumstances.

Adaption and flexibility seems to be the story of evolution, of our species and certainly of the individual - I am exactly the person I was when I was five years old, and so are you and all others, but we chose certain options which have resulted in the people we are today.

The beauty of the interplay in life between character and experience, and most certainly for those who understand astrology or Kabala (which are the deepest of the occult arts in my opinion) is that you realize that there is an element of what can only be called free-will, the ability to choose how we will react to life.
As we become aware of this ability to choose, through youth and then adulthood, how we respond to the situation at hand, we strengthen ourselves and I think this increases our confidence and further enhances our sense of self-control. In my opinion self-control is the highest human attribute (other than compassion) and indeed it defines human beings apart from other animals, who simply act on instinct.

So I do not believe that we can actually avoid the sometimes difficult experiences of life, which are clearly shown in the chart, and nor can we overcome or control our experiences (at least not in a large sense) but as humans we are able to, "place our treasure where (the stellar influences) can no longer penetrate; no easy task it is true but probably the one most worth performing." You will forgive me for quoting C E O Carter yet again.
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
wayne- I also have venus in scorpio, so you don't have a monopoly on opinions about the placement...What you omitted to mention re Ghandi- is that he had mars and venus conjunct in his first house in scorpio- part of a natal opposition. What about if the venus scorpio is well-aspected?? Surely the house and aspects and relationship to the Lord of the Geniture comes into any interpretation of a natal placement.
Bill Gates has venus in scorpio. So does demi Moore and a plethora of other people who don't appear to be severely detrimented in life. On the other hand, Hitler had venus exalted in Taurus, so go figure.....Lillyjgc
 

gaer

Well-known member
wayne penner said:
Gaer, I am not trying to be argumentative but I believe that language should be precise. Also I do not wish to be misunderstood.

I do not believe that we can overcome or avoid the difficulties in our chart but rather that we can adapt to cicumstances.
Then we will have to agree to disagree. First of all, I never meant to say that we can avoid difficulties shown in our charts. This means avoiding a problem, avoiding a lesson, avoiding growth. If we do that, we learn nothing, and because we have learned nothing, we have nothing to give to others.

Avoiding difficulties and overcoming them is not the same thing.
Adaption and flexibility seems to be the story of evolution, of our species and certainly of the individual - I am exactly the person I was when I was five years old, and so are you and all others, but we chose certain options which have resulted in the people we are today.
Each time we choose an option, we change. The change can be good, or it can be bad. Am I the same person I was when I was five, fifteen or twenty-five? If you are talking about DNA, yes. If you are talking about how I view myself, other people and the world, no. I'm not the same person. :)
The beauty of the interplay in life between character and experience, and most certainly for those who understand astrology or Kabala (which are the deepest of the occult arts in my opinion) is that you realize that there is an element of what can only be called free-will, the ability to choose how we will react to life.
Good grief, what do you think I have been talking about? How we react to life is everything. When we face disappoinments, losses, set-backs of all kinds, we can either become angry and shake our fists as the world, fate, destiny, or we can "get on with it". If we face obstacles with courage, we present an example to other people who are facing the same obstacles. We are saying, in effect: "I've faced this and come out on top. You can too. I'll be glad to share with you what I've learned, in case it will make it easier for you."

Or we can say, "It's hopeless. Give up. When life puts obstacles in your way, 'throw in the towel'. Feel defeated, angry, wronged."
As we become aware of this ability to choose, through youth and then adulthood, how we respond to the situation at hand, we strengthen ourselves and I think this increases our confidence and further enhances our sense of self-control. In my opinion self-control is the highest human attribute (other than compassion) and indeed it defines human beings apart from other animals, who simply act on instinct.
I agree with you about self-control and compassion. But you have completely ignored liberation, the ability to free ourselves from fears that serve no purpose, that do nothing but keep us in chains simply because we have failed to see the chains that we have put on ourselves.

If I lose an arm or a leg, that's out of my control. That part of me is gone.

But if I lose my ability to love, to show emotion, to reach out to people who are lonely and hurting, to extend a helping hand, to encourage other people to keep trying—if I lose those things, in the end it is my fault and only my fault. As long as I blame my friends, my country, my parents, or my chart for my weaknesses, I have convenient excuses for not growing as a human being.

That I will not accept. I don't think anyone should. I don't think you should. If you do! :)
So I do not believe that we can actually avoid the sometimes difficult experiences of life, which are clearly shown in the chart, and nor can we overcome or control our experiences (at least not in a large sense) but as humans we are able to, "place our treasure where (the stellar influences) can no longer penetrate; no easy task it is true but probably the one most worth performing." You will forgive me for quoting C E O Carter yet again.
But again you are linking aversion (which is what avoiding is) with facing a problem head-on (overcoming something). No, we can't control our experiences, at least the ones that are not directly caused by our own foolish acts, but we have unlimited opportunity to change the way we respond to what happens to us.

You've stated your viewpoint. I've stated mine. They are not the same. Let's leave it at that.
 
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wayne penner

Well-known member
gaer said:
Then we will have to agree to disagree. First of all, I never meant to say that we can avoid difficulties shown in our charts. This means avoiding a problem, avoiding a lesson, avoiding growth. If we do that, we learn nothing, and because we have learned nothing, we have nothing to give to others.

Avoiding difficulties and overcoming them is not the same thing.

Each time we choose an option, we change. The change can be good, or it can be bad. Am I the same person I was when I was five, fifteen or twenty-five? If you are talking about DNA, yes. If you are talking about how I view myself, other people and the world, no. I'm not the same person. :)

Good grief, what do you think I have been talking about? How we react to life is everything. When we face disappoinments, losses, set-backs of all kinds, we can either become angry and shake our fists as the world, fate, destiny, or we can "get on with it". If we face obstacles with courage, we present an example to other people who are facing the same obstacles. We are saying, in effect: "I've faced this and come out on top. You can too. I'll be glad to share with you what I've learned, in case it will make it easier for you."

Or we can say, "It's hopeless. Give up. When life puts obstacles in your way, 'throw in the towel'. Feel defeated, angry, wronged."

I agree with you about self-control and compassion. But you have completely ignored liberation, the ability to free ourselves from fears that serve no purpose, that do nothing but keep us in chains simply because we have failed to see the chains that we have put on ourselves.

If I lose an arm or a leg, that's out of my control. That part of me is gone.

But if I lose my ability to love, to show emotion, to reach out to people who are lonely and hurting, to extend a helping hand, to encourage other people to keep trying—if I lose those things, in the end it is my fault and only my fault. As long as I blame my friends, my country, my parents, or my chart for my weaknesses, I have convenient excuses for not growing as a human being.

That I will not accept. I don't think anyone should. I don't think you should. If you do! :)

But again you are liking aversion (which is what avoiding is) with facing a problem head-on (overcoming something). No, we can't control our experiences, at least the ones that are not directly caused by our own foolish acts, but we have unlimited opportunity to change the way we respond to what happens to us.

You've stated your viewpoint. I've stated mine. They are not the same. Let's leave it at that.

I don't have any problem with this post and I mostly agree, with the exception that I am exactly who I was at five years old, and I have lady friends who will concur. I have just brought out different parts of my chart over the years that are more comfortable for me. Perhaps that is what it's all about.

Yes, we've probably hashed this out as much as we can for the moment. I'm not a "last word" freak but it's been a good argument and I've enjoyed it and I think I've learned [something.]
 
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wayne penner

Well-known member
lillyjgc said:
wayne- I also have venus in scorpio, so you don't have a monopoly on opinions about the placement...What you omitted to mention re Ghandi- is that he had mars and venus conjunct in his first house in scorpio- part of a natal opposition. What about if the venus scorpio is well-aspected?? Surely the house and aspects and relationship to the Lord of the Geniture comes into any interpretation of a natal placement.
Bill Gates has venus in scorpio. So does demi Moore and a plethora of other people who don't appear to be severely detrimented in life. On the other hand, Hitler had venus exalted in Taurus, so go figure.....Lillyjgc

Well, I don't ever think I have a monopoly on opinion. I just state mine and others are free to think what they will.

Scorpio is a pretty rough position for Venus though, sort of like a rotting apple on a tree. Nice image eh LOL? That is what it is, accept it or not. I'd much prefer for it to be in Libra or Cancer as I think relationships would not be as intense and sometimes outrightly bizarre as they are for me. Not that bizarre though ...

But I'm less concerned about my own chart than I am about the essentials of what astrology means.
 

jagetoile

Well-known member
wayne penner said:
I was actually aware that Venus is in detriment in Scorpio ..

well, just after i've reminded you.

wayne penner said:
There is a reason of course, the sign and planet have really nothing in common and Venuus will have difficulty expressing itself through Fixed Water, even though it delights in Cancer and Pisces.

why venus is not compatile with fixed and water?

wayne penner said:
The sexual side of Scorpio will often be hard to control, once again Gandhi wrote about this as the most difficult side of his nature. Larry Flynt, the publisher of the pornographic magazine has this position, and considers himself completely depraved. There is a certain graphic honesty with this position.

what is the sexual overtone in Gandhi's temperament?

wayne penner said:
I wonder what you mean by "concret convincing statistically solid proof". Astrology has never been amenable to statistics, with some apology to Gauqualin, and I would like to know what astrological position or aspect can be explained using "concret convincing statistically solid proof".

so your astrological approach is not at all as you proclaimed since days in the "reasonable" way. you're such a paradox in different threads. i really have the feeling that you are not only fooling others, but also fooling yourself, wayne, how far can you go like this?
 

RockFish

Well-known member
Ok, Blaise Pascal didn't study astrology, so he didn't know "the truth". (*sigh*)

What about Carl Jung?

"It is indeed very difficult to explain the astrological phenomenon. I am not in the least disposed to an either-or explanation. I always say that with a psychological explanation there is only the alternative: either and or! This seems to me to be the case with astrology too."

I don't have any problem with disagreements. What I find pretty weird is that you claim to be speaking "the truth" and people that can't accept this "truth" shouldn't be studying astrology, which is a rather arrogant and authoritarian position, considering that most prestigious astrologers wouldn't be claiming to hold the ultimate truth about the subject.

In addition, you may say your "truth" concerning and aspect, but if people have examples and cases to prove that things are not so black-or-white, they will present them. You rule them out by saying they can't accept the "truth", but how can you accept a "truth" that doesn't apply to many cases? The real truth can't be debated, and if people present info that deny a certain claim, then it is most possible that this claim is not "the truth", but a truth concerning some cases at best.

"Well, I don't ever think I have a monopoly on opinion."

That's not what you are demonstrating here. I guess most people would like to discuss aspects and configurations both in their positive and negative expressions, but being forced to swallow someone else's "truth" as if it was the *ultimate* truth is something you'd agree that intelligent people won't be inclined to do.
 
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