GAY ASTROLOGY

Hi all!

Perhaps "coming out" is also an aspect of the Sun coming into its own power for a person. The Sun's energy, no matter what the sign is, is beginning the self-empowerment, self-actualization process towards wholeness. Part of this "coming out" may be sexual in nature, but it may be coming out in other areas just as well.

For my own astrological work, I do not look for indicators of heterosexuality/homosexuality because I believe sexuality is too fluid of a concept to peg to any set of factors in the birth chart, even with transits and progressions figured into the mix. I do think that the way a person perceives and wants intimate contact may be strongly indicative in the chart but those indicators do not label a person "gay" or "straight." A person can receive intimate contact in many ways and all of them do not deal with sexuality or even human physical contact.

In my opinion, the culture here in the United States places too much emphasis on types of sexuality and whether they are "good" or "bad." Part of this may be due to lingering Puritan energies within the culture, part of it may be due where the American culture is in its maturation process. What I mean by this is that I think the American culture is still in late adolesence or perhaps early 20s and is still trying very hard to figure out what it is and is not, where it wants to fit in with the group and where it wants to stand away from the group, etc. Sexuality has been made a big part of that because for some it is the most visible indicator of where a person stands within the mainstream of the culture.

And I find it very sad that it is that way. By labeling and putting people in neat little boxes, we deny to them some of their Sun's energy of self-actualization and self-empowerment. This, in my opinion, is what astrology should fight against.

The only time I think that sexual orientation should enter into the discussion of a reading is if the client brings up the matter. If it opened by the client, then the astrologer can follow the energy of the client to determine how to proceed.

The only time I believe sexual orientation should matter in general discourse should be when a person is strongly attracted to another and wishes to have an intimate relationship with that person. Otherwise, a person's sexual orientation is nobody's business except that person and the people the person is the most intimate with.

Elianah

sexual orientation and chart readings

Draco and Elianah,

Draco, you said:

...you can tell from a person's chart something about how they might express their sexuality, but not the direction in which it is orientated because the fundamentals of their sexual appetites will be the same whichever way it is directed.

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Elianha, you said:

...a person's sexual orientation is nobody's business except that person and the people the person is the most intimate with.

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I think these points sum up the sexual orientation in astrology issue very well. As someone said, "While others dance around and suppose, The secret sits in the middle and knows". It is interesting in the context of an astrological discussion to guess at how a person MIGHT astrologically be oriented toward one type of sexuality or another, but only the person themselves truly knows what it is in their lives that shaped their sexual choices. And this is something private and personal to the person...not open to larger discussion, unless the person brings up the sexual issue themselves.

I think this point can be expanded into a larger point about astrological interpretation. There are some astrologers who insist on diving into a person's private past, making statements to them about how they treated their mother, how their mother treated them, whether their family was alcoholic, how much child abuse they experienced, etc...all from simply looking at their chart. To me, this is like trying to guess a person's sexuality from the chart.

Yes, there are indications in any chart of potential childhood issues and how they might have manifested, but the details of this are private to the person, unless they choose to share them. Instead, the astrologer should focus on how the person is currently using their energies and to help them direct that energy usage along a more helpful, life affirming path. And if the client never mentions they had a traumatic childhood, the astrologer should not push to "discover" one.

I suggest helping the person with their current life problems and resisting the urge for astrological voyeurism.

Blending sexual astrological prying with personal astrological prying,

Tim

Re: sexual orientation and chart readings

wilsontc said:

Yes, there are indications in any chart of potential childhood issues and how they might have manifested, but the details of this are private to the person, unless they choose to share them. Instead, the astrologer should focus on how the person is currently using their energies and to help them direct that energy usage along a more helpful, life affirming path. And if the client never mentions they had a traumatic childhood, the astrologer should not push to "discover" one.

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HEAR HEAR!

Elianah

Absolutely!

Draco

I was reading on the web and found this article on Gemini and it discusses it's possible links to homosexuality. I had a look at Rock Hudson's chart but he doesn't have a Gemini stellium. I will post his chart later, out of interest.

On different sites I have read I have a Lesbian Moon, and a gay mars. But I am not a lesbian. (I have Moon in 7th - they must relate this to a relationship with a woman. I also have Mars in Aquarius - my sexuality is different from the norm.)

Link Below

http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/Agemini.htm

There is a book called homosexuality and the birth chart. Some believe its mars gemini and 8th house correlation. I have to dig it out to see.
Oh I'm new here and happened on this site by happenstance. Thank gawd, I love horary astrology but its so hard to find good discussions.

Most people i know with gay/ lesbian or bisexual tendencies have a Gemini, Virgo or Aquarius Sun Sign...
There's a Scorpio who doesn't confirm my personal rule... but guess
She's a Gemini Moon in 8

And Elianah is/ was right
It's nobody's business who you spend the night/ your life with, as long as you're happy...

I'm sorry, in my previous post I said the books was Homosexuality in the Birth Chart...I was wrong. I dug the book out, its by Wim Van Dam entitled Astrology and Homosexuality.

Apparently homosexuality has been discussed in astrological circles for some time. Here are the theories

Ptolemy:if a man has a mars aspect to venus and jupiter and if the latter two planets precede the sun, that individual will confine his sexual interest to men. Lesbians Mars and Venus in masculine signs aspecting each other.

More modern astrologers think its Uranus and Neptune more Uranus in Scorpio or Taurus, I'm a double scorpio myself. My sun is leo, my asc scorpio and moon scorpio. The book goes on and I'll try to post more as I re read it. There is another book that I don't have, Homosexuality in the Horoscope by Karl G. Heimsoth MD.

I was reading on the web and found this article on Gemini and it discusses it's possible links to homosexuality.

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Yes, I agree. I don't feel that homosexuality cannot be found in astrological symbolism, I just object to the idea that we have the knowledge to ascertain a persons sexual orientation in the nativity in terms of 'gay' and 'straight'.

I would associate the air signs with homosexuality, for these reasons:

Gemini consists of double bodied symbolism, they are twins, and the Greek prefix 'homo', means 'the same, or equal to', hence 'homo'sexuality, and identical twins are called 'homo'zygotic twins. So I think it's the unity of sameness that infers homosexual associations with Gemini.

Libra, again, because of the idea of equivalence rather than differentiation, again, a 'homo' concept, in that the weight, ideally, is equal on both sides.

Aquarius, because despite that the Christians stuck their oar in, and changed the original symbol of the male youth of Aquarius into a woman to disguise the original myth from where the symbolism originated, would mythologically relate to homosexuality.

Ptolemy:if a man has a mars aspect to venus and jupiter and if the latter two planets precede the sun, that individual will confine his sexual interest to men.

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Sorry Ptolemy, I don't have these configurations in my chart.

Draco said:

Sorry Ptolemy, I don't have these configurations in my chart.

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are you gay Draco:38:

Kenny said:

are you gay Draco:38:

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Wow, that came out as insensitive and - dare I say it - insulting.

Oh, no offence taken Kaiousei, I wasn't insulted at all.

are you gay Draco

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Er...yeah, can you read Kenny?

Although what amused me was this:

More modern astrologers think its Uranus and Neptune more Uranus in Scorpio or Taurus, I'm a double scorpio myself.

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Yea, I forgot to mention Scorpio along with the air signs earlier.

You see, I thought you were implying there that you were gay yourself, and presumed you were. Someone directed my attention to it on PM.

You have two books upon homosexuality in the horoscope? You take a great deal of interest in the matter then? Such books are rare. I'm gay, but I've never heard of these books.

It's usually the general consensus of opinion that a persons sexual orientation either can not or should not be read in the chart, personally I believe that if it is possible, we lack the criteria by which such an analysis to any degree of reliability can be done, which Ptolemy's example demonstrates, but then to be fair, in his age and culture, his perception of what defined homosexuality couldn't get any more different to ours, so we'll never really know what characteristics he was looking for in his aphorism, but it isn't what you or your authors would be looking for. In fact, the way in which Ptolemy considered that an indication of homosexuality could be found in Mars in aspect to both of the fortunate planets serves to demonstrate how his perspective upon homosexuality differed from your's, or indeed, the world at large in this Kali-Yuga.

However, if you want to put the theories of these authors to the test (who are heterosexual no doubt), then I will upload, just for you, five different charts, but only one of them will be gay, and you can use the theories layed out in these books to identify which one.

I don't think astrology should do politics myself, or it loses any scrap of respectability it may have left, but hey, give it a shot.

If you fail I can have a laugh at your expense, if not, well done.

So are you up for it?

This thread has been a very interesting reading so far. Let's keep the flame flaring for the sake of learning.

I long for a world and time in which people are not labeled just because they are individuals, or just because we don't want to understand the meaning of tolerance and peaceful convivence, by the way.

About the topic, I think we should be able to pinpoint sexual tendencies in a natal chart, the same as we can spot the skills, mental problems, criminal tendencies or physical ailments that someone is prone to suffer.

Why? Because sexual and other preferences, emotional make up, physical appearance, etc., are determined right at the birth time. A homosexual, bisexual or heterosexual person is born that way. Whether the person live all of their life in denial for whatever reason, or they live in accordance with their natural inclinations, that is their choice. There is plenty of room for free will here.

I think that transits will only trigger something that was already there but that was being repressed.

As much as I have read about certain aspects showing homosexuality, I haven't been able to find the right set of aspects that indicate this with absolute accuracy.

I have studied charts of homosexual men and women trying to isolate the Uranus-Venus-Mars-Gemini connections but many of these charts don't show them. A few of them show only, let's say, Venus/Mars conjunction (my niece's case) or a strong Gemini.

On the other hand, I have seen these so called "indicators of homosexuality", showing in charts of people I happen to know very well, but none qualifies for the "homosexual label". The Venus/Mars conjunction, specifically, in a friend's daughter's chart.

My own chart shows a few indicators of homosexuality according to the information I have gathered from some books, but... I cannot even imagine touching another woman in a sexual way. I cannot imagine myself suddenly changing my sexual preferences because some wicked transit hits a sensitive point in my chart either. Undoubtedly, if I were homosexual, I would follow my natural instincts no matter what the rest of the world thought about it, as long as I knew I wasn't doing harm to anyone.

Perhaps all that it's needed is enough time studying charts of people who are known to be homosexual to see if we can, at last, exclaim Eureka!!


Carole

I didn't really read all the posts. The reason I asked if you were gay because you said you have no gemini or air sign configuration based on the theories. I am gay and have a mars, gemini 8th house thing. :60:

Draco said:

Oh, no offence taken Kaiousei, I wasn't insulted at all.



Er...yeah, can you read Kenny?

Although what amused me was this:



Yea, I forgot to mention Scorpio along with the air signs earlier.

You see, I thought you were implying there that you were gay yourself, and presumed you were. Someone directed my attention to it on PM.

You have two books upon homosexuality in the horoscope? You take a great deal of interest in the matter then? Such books are rare. I'm gay, but I've never heard of these books.

It's usually the general consensus of opinion that a persons sexual orientation either can not or should not be read in the chart, personally I believe that if it is possible, we lack the criteria by which such an analysis to any degree of reliability can be done, which Ptolemy's example demonstrates, but then to be fair, in his age and culture, his perception of what defined homosexuality couldn't get any more different to ours, so we'll never really know what characteristics he was looking for in his aphorism, but it isn't what you or your authors would be looking for. In fact, the way in which Ptolemy considered that an indication of homosexuality could be found in Mars in aspect to both of the fortunate planets serves to demonstrate how his perspective upon homosexuality differed from your's, or indeed, the world at large in this Kali-Yuga.

However, if you want to put the theories of these authors to the test (who are heterosexual no doubt), then I will upload, just for you, five different charts, but only one of them will be gay, and you can use the theories layed out in these books to identify which one.

I don't think astrology should do politics myself, or it loses any scrap of respectability it may have left, but hey, give it a shot.

If you fail I can have a laugh at your expense, if not, well done.

So are you up for it?

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Okay Kenny.

Apologies. It just looked as if you were mocking me.

Draco, although it is unlikely, you may be unaware of the gay-astrology.com site. It has a similar opinion to yours, I think. Anyway, I use it to keep up on the gay news, it has a great compilation, edited daily. Bye.

Hi Charm.

Interesting post, it lead onto all sorts of thoughts.

Venus and Mars are the young yin and young yang energy - for active sexual attraction.
Moon and Saturn are the old yin and old yang, the past and inactive.

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I can see the sense in this, although in traditional horary it is Venus and the Sun that represent 'animal woman' and 'animal man'.

So in the horary, each person, man and woman will have their usual significators at the cusps, and providing the Sun and Venus are not already taken, these represent their respective masculine and feminine sexualities. Now, if her significator is in strong dignities of his, but he is in none of her dignities, but in strong dignities of Venus, it shows he is more interested in her 'you know what', than in her as a person, and that's how it goes...

It's a most interesting techinque, and can be very revealing as to the true intent as to the true nature of each persons motivations. In horaries pertaining to heterosexual relationships, I find using these significators as such works very well.

It isn't possible to use these significators in questions pertaining to same sex relationships, because you can't have two Suns or two Venus'!

I have in the past toyed with the possibility of using the Sun/Mars for men, and Moon/Venus for women, so that still presents us with the problem of deciding who is who, so I simply do not use these significators in homosexual relationships, and I don't have a problem with that. I have discovered that this isn't necessary, because in a male/male relationships it is simply necessary only to look at the Sun, and how their respective significators are relating to it, and for a female/female realtionship, it's only necessary to look to Venus in a similar fashion.

I now realise, profoundly, that it is not at all necessary to distinguish between two seperate planets to represent each persons sexuality, because in a homosexual relationship, their sexuality is the same, so of course you only need to look at the one planet!

This realisation taught me something in general about the way in which we percieve homosexuality in this Kali-Yuga. I realise how the misconceptions of our society at large caused me to be seeking out separate significators in the first place. Why is it that we try to percieve homosexuality in heterosexual terms? How bizarre!

The fact that we do this is demonstrated in the fact that traditional astrologers wonder about what two different significators they can use for each party in a homosexual relationship, forgetting the fact that their sexuality is the same! So there is no differentiation. It is evident in this whole issue of gay marriage and adoption, which I think personally is quite farcical, and a demonstration of how homophobic our age is in that there are a certain 'gays' that seek to do these things in order to model themselves on heterosexual relationships and be accepted. I understand that this is not what homosexuality is about, I find it ridiculous and quite embarrasing in fact, but this is my understanding. I hanker after the beknighted past, the Spartans and the Band of Thebes, this is what homosexuality is all about to me, but again, this is my understanding. I am completely certain that I was sent from there to here to experience some horrible and dishonourable tribulation in being 'gay' in this age. What a terrible demotion! I do wonder what it is that I am supposed to be learning, coming from there to here.

Another example of how we try and percieve homosexuality in heterosexual terms these days, is the symbol of two interlinking Mars or Venus symbols to represent homosexuality or lesbianism. Wrong! All that is necessary is one Mars or one Venus symbol, to represent the unity between all 'maleness' and 'femaleness', you can't divide the already indivisible. The fact that we seek to do so in such glyphs, shows how we seek to model homosexuality on heterosexuality, thats where we are all confused, gay or straight.

Another example yet again, of how homosexuality is misconstrued, is when people make audaciously ignorant comments such as 'so who's 'the man' and who's 'the woman'', my response is, repenting my fury, 'well, neither of us, or that would entirely defeat the object wouldn't it!?'.

Sorry, I went off on a bit of a tangent there and said a lot I didn't know I was going to say, but I feel very safe here to speak of such things, and just be, well, very open.

I am meant to open up here, my ascendant conjoins the forums midheaven precisely, and the forums Sun opposes my Moon precisely, symbolically, making it glow fully.

Anyway, in traditional natal astrology, in diurnal charts the father is the Sun, and Venus the mother. In nocturnal charts, Saturn in the father and Luna the mother.

I do however sometimes wonder why mother/father, woman/man are not given the seemingly obvious polarities of Sun/Moon, or Venus/Mars as you said. I do trust the Sun/Venus, Saturn/Moon polarity though, as it appears to work well. I just wish I could find the reasoning behind it, as I do trust that there is a sound reasoning behind it - as it works!

I'm glad this thread has revived, because we ought to discuss these things, and if anyone gets offended, all it takes is to explain why.

The observation danny99 says regarding Chiron and Venus is interesting

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Well, I'm not a Chiron fan, and I delete the transpersonals most of the time, as the seven lights are my source of fascination, but when I look at my chart, I recall that I have Chiron in precise opposition to Mars, and Mars is the most powerful planet in my chart. If you allow for out of sign aspects, which I don't, Mars is also quite closely conjoined with Uranus.

Be afraid!

Chiron represents where we receive a psychic wound and if combined by inharmonious aspect with Venus or Mars could result in the effect he describes.

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Well, I told you my wound, I'm completely desperate to go back.

I don't know what Venus has to do with homosexuality though, not for me anyway. Put it this way, if I was given the choice between the feel of a leather strap and a feather boa, I wouldn't go for the boa, so you get an idea of what I'm about now. Although it wasn't the best analogy.

I agree with Tim about Mars in Taurus and Venus in Aries etc, or Venus in Scorpio and Mars in Libra, and the role reversal thing.

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Well I'm Mars in Scorpio, and no role reversal here.

I don't really know the answers but I want to remain open and hold all these thoughts in mind, not to block ideas or the discussion of others. I don't see the point of getting all heated about it.

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Fair enough.

I can't think of anyone else to look up.

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Haha. Well, I'll return with some more data for your perusal, but if you wish, feel free:

15th September, 1982, 18:00 (yes, I was actually born on the hour!), Blackpool (03W03/53N50), England.

Anyway, waffle, waffle, sorry if I've bored you.

Hi Moondance

the gay-astrology.com site

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*Draco cringes*

Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of this site, but I'm not sure it's one I'd visit much.

I have seen some gay astrology sites, and I will visit them for research purposes on the rare occasion - say to 'Astroqueer' in order to look for a chart or something, but honestly, I've never been into the whole 'gay community' thing at all as I find it extremely political, and my politics tend to veer rather sharply to the right, if I can't have anarchy that is. In fact I really don't like that word, pink isn't my colour, and my flag is pure black.

One day in the not too far future, when I design a site, you'll know what I'm about.

It has a similar opinion to yours

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I'm quite certain that it's general consensus of opinion on most things is very different to mine indeed. I see rainbow flags as a 'keep out' sign, because I know I don't like the body of politics that it inevitably represents.

Thankyou anyway for providing the link, as it was thoughtful of you.

For the record, here is my kind of site, which hopefully, someone out there may have been looking for something similar as well:

http://www.jackmalebranche.com/hub/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=6

Here is an excerpt:

GAY IS DEAD

The word gay has never described mere homosexuality. Gay is a subculture, a slur, a set of gestures, a slang, a look, a posture, a parade, a rainbow flag, a film genre, a taste in music, a hairstyle, a marketing demographic, a bumper sticker, a political agenda and philosophical viewpoint. Gay is a pre-packaged, superficial persona—a lifestyle. It's a sexual identity that has almost nothing to do with sexuality.

Androphilia is a rejection of the overloaded gay identity and a return to a discussion of homosexuality in terms of desire: a raw, apolitical sexual desire and the sexualized appreciation for masculinity as experienced by men. The gay sensiblility is a near-oblivious embrace of a castrating slur, the nonstop celebration of an age-old, emasulating stimga applied to men who engaged in homosexual acts. Gays and radical queers imagine that they challenge the status quo, but in appropriating the stigma of effeminacy, they merely conform to and confirm long-established expectations. Men who love men have been paradoxically cast as the enemies of masculinity—slaves to the feminist pipe dream of a 'gender-neutral' (read: anti-male, pro-female) world.

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Sorry to go off topic, but that link could be extremely important in some young guys life.

Draco-My statement meant that the site feels that gayness is not evident in the chart. How could I make a comparison of your global feelings about your sexuality when it is(or was) unknown to me?

You do seem to forget that males don't own homosexuality,however. I would like to think about your post before replying more fully, but I have always felt that homosexual males and homosexual females are the most "masculine" and most "feminine" of people, respectively. This may seem incongruous due to outer dress and mannerism, but is plainly confirmed by sexual style and manner of relating to one another. More later,after sleep.Goodnight.

Draco-My statement meant that the site feels that gayness is not evident in the chart.

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Yes, I realise this, but the link tapped into a particular stream of thought at the time.

You do seem to forget that males don't own homosexuality,however.

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I don't. I understand that homosexuality and lesbianism are the cardinal opposites of each other and have nothing in common. Despite the 'LGBT community' placing absolutely everything that is sexual, but not 'hetero'sexual under the same banner.

This may seem incongruous due to outer dress and mannerism

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It depends.

More later,after sleep.Goodnight.

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Okay, night. I may not be able to get online tomorrow, but I'll try.