HIV/AIDS in a natal chart

Frisiangal said:

At the end of the 1980's whilst studying med. astrology, the question was put which planet was thought to 'rule' Aids. I think the whole class went for Pluto because of the then association with sexuality. The tutor informed us that, due to the reasoning behind the cause of AIDS.... a virus that instigates the gradual disintegration of the immune system, it fell under rulership of Neptune. AIDS is not a personal and/or social disease, therefore rulership by the personal and social planets is not plausible. It is, however, a world wide outer planet influenced disease that is transmitted through personal contact. Not by touch or mentality but by/through transmission of fluid....even in babes. AIDS is no longer terminally destructive, thus rulership by Pluto would not seem to hold true.

An adverse aspect with Neptune alone does not contend AIDS. However, the horoscope chart would show a predisposition towards contraction of the disease through other aspects that are suggestive of behaviour patterns where the personal barriers are unrestricted. I personally believe that Neptune's transit into Capricorn works two-fold. Neptune can dissolve and disintegrate the natural barriers that protect the physical body from outside influences (Capricorn), OR, the natural barriers can withstand the onslaught from alien influences. The Neptune in Capricorn generation is born with the gift to control and conquer the virus before it controls and conquers them.

My 2 cents.

Frisiangal

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Nicely stated,
I have a question, one that no one has answered here yet.
What then do we do with Herpes, Syphillis which are also immune disorders that can be life-threatning as well as HIV? It seems that people think that HIV is the only bad guy in this picture.
So then you see a person with a bad neptune, capricorn thingy or whatever....then we say they have HIV? (I am not here to argue the indicators in the natal chart- although I do wonder why astrologers dont look to the actual illness and how it manifests in the body to find out where in the chart it can be seen so to speak)
I guess where I am going with this is that it is not only going to indicate HIV now will it? I dont want anyone here to look at their neptune and capricorn and freak out, because they might just get herpes or something just as interesting....

Now that I am thinking about this, why dont astrologers look to the disease process itself? It seems to me that with these new diseases on board that we would look to a more modern approach (I say that cringing, Kai dont kill me here )

and HIV not as destructive? Are you kidding, unless you care for a dying AIDS patient I dont think I would call HIV/AIDS benign...Not a comment personal towards you frisiangal, but HIV is deadly. True after one seroconverts they have a greater life expenctancy than before, but I wouldnt call it non-destructive. AIDS is terminally destructive, not as much as before the antiviral drugs, but it isnt on the non-terminal list as of yet.
I just dont agree with your instructors view on the HIV/AIDS. Sorry.

Waybread- you said:
Steph, I think in the case of a new disease, we should indeed keep an open mind about its astrological correlations. Medical astrology, as you know, is a well-developed field of longstanding, and its practitioners will probably, in the first instance, look to this field's traditions.

Sometimes keeping an open mind and following traditions with new diseases that traditional astrology didnt understand at the time, confuses me. Using neptune is not traditional is it? I am not being nasty, but really I am not sure?

Sure HIV/AIDS is not a social disease, but I am refering to the mis-communication at the cellular level of the disease process itself. Thus my mercury idea, Lol!. I also like the chiron article too!

PS:
I mean no harm or intent to harm in my reply here. I feel like I need to say this

AIDS is not a personal and/or social disease, therefore rulership by the personal and social planets is not plausible.

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Okay...and then you said.

It is, however, a world wide outer planet influenced disease that is transmitted through personal contact. Not by touch or mentality but by/through transmission of fluid....

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What?

So it's a non-personal disease that can't be shown by personal or socieital planets, but it's spread through extreme personal contact with someone and can be shown through generational planets?

That sounds contradictory. :S

I contracted HIV in late 2003 if any of you want to take a look at my chart.
I recently saw an astrologer who said around that time tr. pluto was squaring my natal sun and moon which is in a t square with neptune and tr. pluto was conjuncting natal neptune as well.

i thought that was really interesting. but i'm not sure exactly the transits and everything. i got it from and ex boyfriend (relationship was a living hell)

anyway, here is my chart if anyone is interested.

girlcat said:

I contracted HIV in late 2003 if any of you want to take a look at my chart.
I recently saw an astrologer who said around that time tr. pluto was squaring my natal sun and moon which is in a t square with neptune and tr. pluto was conjuncting natal neptune as well.

i thought that was really interesting. but i'm not sure exactly the transits and everything. i got it from and ex boyfriend (relationship was a living hell)

anyway, here is my chart if anyone is interested.

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Thank you for generously posting your pertinent info in this thread. And I am really sorry for what you are going through. I have a good friend whose mother was recently diagnosed, after also having a relationship 'from hell' as she describes it.

In your particular chart, Girlcat, it seems that neptune in your natal chart has a bigger influence than Pluto in terms of your medical issues. You have Pisces on your 6th, with moon in pisces in the 6th, and square to Neptune in the 3rd, opposed Sun/Mercury in the 12th.

Mars and pluto are both nicely aspected in your chart, while neptune is heavily afflicted. Interesting, although it is only one anecdotal example.

But then again, it appears that it was the transit of Pluto that brought it about, so perhaps it is a combination of Neptune and pluto that is involved.

Here is Rock Hudson's chart. I think his Venus, Jupiter, Pluto are interesting. Pluto was in his 10th and he is known as a sex symbol, but also as someone who had HIV. Venus (love) and Jupiter (overindulgence, expansion) are both opposite Pluto. He is said to have had lots of young male lovers. I am surprised his Neptune isn't more afflicted. It is afflicted by the Sun-Saturn conjunction, but trined by the Moon-Mercury conjunction.

girlcat said:

I contracted HIV in late 2003 if any of you want to take a look at my chart.
I recently saw an astrologer who said around that time tr. pluto was squaring my natal sun and moon which is in a t square with neptune and tr. pluto was conjuncting natal neptune as well.

i thought that was really interesting. but i'm not sure exactly the transits and everything. i got it from and ex boyfriend (relationship was a living hell)

anyway, here is my chart if anyone is interested.

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Hello-
I think everyone here can say that posting your information here for us to learn takes a very courageous woman. All I can say is thank you for sharing such intimate information with us.

Pluto for me links in with Aids, I was posting yesterday on Mars-Pluto or Venus-Pluto connections. I was reading a new book, and coincidentally here is what the author Penny Thorten had to say on Aids:

Since November 1983 Pluto has been passing through it's own sign of Scorpio where it will remain until until November 1995. Now, in 1989, we can see some of the effects of this transit. On the negative side Aids is a classic Plutonic disease - a virus which is spread through sexual activity and initially in the west rampant in the homosexual community (Pluto, Scorpio, and the 8th house of the horoscope symbolize such taboo aspects of life as sex and death. The crucial factor about AIDS in connection with Pluto Scorpio is that it breaks down; in a sense the body self-destructs. In keeping with Moirian cosmic law, many strongly religious individuals believe Aids is Gods way of punishing humanity for it's decline in sexual morality.

Shining Ray said:

Pluto for me links in with Aids, I was posting yesterday on Mars-Pluto or Venus-Pluto connections. I was reading a new book, and coincidentally here is what the author Penny Thorten had to say on Aids:

Since November 1983 Pluto has been passing through it's own sign of Scorpio where it will remain until until November 1995. Now, in 1989, we can see some of the effects of this transit. On the negative side Aids is a classic Plutonic disease - a virus which is spread through sexual activity and initially in the west rampant in the homosexual community (Pluto, Scorpio, and the 8th house of the horoscope symbolize such taboo aspects of life as sex and death. The crucial factor about AIDS in connection with Pluto Scorpio is that it breaks down; in a sense the body self-destructs. In keeping with Moirian cosmic law, many strongly religious individuals believe Aids is Gods way of punishing humanity for it's decline in sexual morality.

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Wow. I've heard fundamentalist christians talk that way, but I'm surprised to see that line of thought being given credence to in a book about astrology. It just doesn't make sense to my occult/metaphysical mind that "god" would punish innocent people along with "the guilty".

Girlcat, thank you so much for posting your chart. I hope your health is in good shape and that a cure will be found for AIDS.

What astonishes me, however, is that you are virtually my daughter's astro-twin! Your birth locations are different, though in the same general region of the US, but your charts are just incredibly close. Well, she does not have HIV/AIDS, at least so far as I know. So I don't think there is something inherent in your birth chart. Also, so many people have gotten HIV/AIDS, ranging from African babies to Europeans getting bad blood transfusions that I cannot believe there is one astro-signature for all.

Friesiangal, I am glad you joined this conversation. [For those who don't know her, she really does have a solid background in medical astrology.]

Ray, Estrella, I agree that saying that AIDS is God's punishment for the sins of gay men just doesn't hold up on so many levels.

First of all, atheists would reject this interpretation out-of-hand. No God, no divine retribution. And evangelical Christians should believe that God does what He wants, not what religious zealots predict. He is not bound by their analyses. The best they can do is say they don't know what is God's plan for HIV/AIDS. Second, some gay men do not contract AIDS. Third, many people living a life that religious conservatives would approve of (like monogamous Christian women in southern Africa) contract HIV/AIDS: southern Africa today is where the greatest spread of HIV/AIDS is taking place. Fourth, babies born to HIV/AIDS-infected mothers would have to be seen as "innocent" by any stretch of the imagination.

My heart goes out to anyone reading this thread whose life has been touched by HIV/AIDS.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

Okay...and then you said.



What?

So it's a non-personal disease that can't be shown by personal or socieital planets, but it's spread through extreme personal contact with someone and can be shown through generational planets?

That sounds contradictory. :S

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I can't see my original passages in this reply, so hope they appear when this is on the board.

Much of what people say/write can be taken in a different perspective because minds work differently. My apologies if you cannot follow the way mine, and/or the way I was taught, works. I believe there to be a difference between 'personal disease' and 'transmitted through personal contact', but that's just me.

Smiling Steph: I agree with you that one should not look at a physical complaint from 'face value' only, and where use of astrological symbolism is concerned to determine predisposition to a physical disorder there is a need to dig deeper into the underlying causes of the illness, disorder or disease. Unfortunately, there aren't many medical astrology books on the market offering new, alternative or further ideas to those already written down, so it's a case of rowing with the oars available, yet that have so far proven themselves to be reliable (re)sources. It is your right, however, to disagree with anything/everything you read. Only that way, can things change that are in need of changing. Maybe your interest in the medical side of astrology will provide the incentive to create a wave.

I may have misunderstood you but I don't think you will find any astrologer who works with medical/health astrology who will tell someone that they are 'destined' to get a particular disorder because of a particular planetary pattern. They could well warn them of the possibilities of misused energies.

In my post I did not say that AIDS/HIV was not destructive, but that it is no longer terminally so. As I understand it, breakthroughs are being made regarding medication/treatment regularly through which life span is extended.

Nothing taken personally, as I hope you also feel.

Regards,

Frisiangal

sorry if this has been pointed out, but i didn't want to loose my thought,

Has anyone considered the difference between charts of those born with aids, and those who caught aids?

could uranus be the ruler of aids? Modern planet about control and sudden changes.. shocking revelations, sudden changes deep emotions as you realize your mortality. and uranus is a higher octave of mars.

Lighting strikes.. sudden death of aids patients droping like flys in the 80's sudden speed and quickness of development.

Frisiangal said:

I can't see my original passages in this reply, so hope they appear when this is on the board.

Much of what people say/write can be taken in a different perspective because minds work differently. My apologies if you cannot follow the way mine, and/or the way I was taught, works. I believe there to be a difference between 'personal disease' and 'transmitted through personal contact', but that's just me.

Smiling Steph: I agree with you that one should not look at a physical complaint from 'face value' only, and where use of astrological symbolism is concerned to determine predisposition to a physical disorder there is a need to dig deeper into the underlying causes of the illness, disorder or disease. Unfortunately, there aren't many medical astrology books on the market offering new, alternative or further ideas to those already written down, so it's a case of rowing with the oars available, yet that have so far proven themselves to be reliable (re)sources. It is your right, however, to disagree with anything/everything you read. Only that way, can things change that are in need of changing. Maybe your interest in the medical side of astrology will provide the incentive to create a wave.

I may have misunderstood you but I don't think you will find any astrologer who works with medical/health astrology who will tell someone that they are 'destined' to get a particular disorder because of a particular planetary pattern. They could well warn them of the possibilities of misused energies.

In my post I did not say that AIDS/HIV was not destructive, but that it is no longer terminally so. As I understand it, breakthroughs are being made regarding medication/treatment regularly through which life span is extended.

Nothing taken personally, as I hope you also feel.

Regards,

Frisiangal

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Oh none taken personally!
I too have issues with having to clear myself up now and then Lol, as others here can prove.
I dont know much about medical astrology and reading your information here makes so much sense to me. I also was thinking that how can we pinpoint an aspect and then call it HIV/AIDS, which you have cleared up for me. I was a little heated by the topic, and that I was not getting my answers! Mars just left the third house for me so I am calm now . I do so appreciate your reply!

Niplan-
I think your mind is wonderful, but oh man being born with HIV and contracting it, geez, I just finally wrapped my head around the basic aspect probability, which havent even really been validated yet.
What do you think that the key players are here?

I was reading from Liz Greene last night the following:
Neptune is associated with the Dionysius, god of ecstacy.
"There are archetypal ideas and there are archetypal feelings and Neptune personifies the latter, which we all at some time experience. Fantasy, romance, galmour, ectacy, they mystical vision, all of these are Neptune, and while a steady diet of any one thing is in the end destructive, theses aspects of reality are necessary to the psyche and need room for expression in the personal life." Liz Greene Relating

Now that shows us that a little bit of Neptune can be destructive, but necessary. It does show in a way, how too much Neptune can lead to overindulgance of things that can take one away from the present and bring them into another realm of the spirit- where one can lose their judgement and make poor decisions. Also where one can tend to a higher spiritual adventure.
I wouldnt place blame on Neptune per say, but I would think that a heavily afflicted Neptune can blur the lines of protecting oneself from a pleasure that can be good, while throwing the sensible precautionary rationale to the wind.

I dont know what else to say here.

I guess because I am a medically inclined person I would go with how the disease manifests itself. But then again it is like looking for something too specific in the chart.

Estrella, Waybread,

This is not the astrologer's view, she is stating what the religious groups at the time, and probably still are "preaching" about the Aids virus, it was mostly when it spread rapidly, and was affecting the Gay community. These sort of moral condemnations happen all the time, just look at how astrology is labelled evil and superstitious by certain religious groups.

There are people out there who believe they are an authority on God, when all they do is label, judge, and condemn. If diseases were a punishment then any disease could be God's punishment or handicap, or other disabilities. Earthquakes, floods, or other natural disasters, if that were the case. Claims made in the name of "God". We don't want to further spread their negativity, and perhaps it's better we stay on topic with the HIV virus, rather than circle round about what certain religious groups believe in. Unless someone has astrological insight on the astrology of these times. Otherwise its best not to get sidelined into a discussion about how certain religious groups view Aids.

Shining Ray said:

Estrella, Waybread,

This is not the astrologer's view, she is stating what the religious groups at the time, and probably still are "preaching" about the Aids virus, it was mostly when it spread rapidly, and was affecting the Gay community. These sort of moral condemnations happen all the time, just look at how astrology is labelled evil and superstitious by certain religious groups.

There are people out there who believe they are an authority on God, when all they do is label, judge, and condemn. If diseases were a punishment then any disease could be God's punishment or handicap, or other disabilities. Earthquakes, floods, or other natural disasters, if that were the case. Claims made in the name of "God". We don't want to further spread their negativity, and perhaps it's better we stay on topic with the HIV virus, rather than circle round about what certain religious groups believe in. Unless someone has astrological insight on the astrology of these times. Otherwise its best not to get sidelined into a discussion about how certain religious groups view Aids.

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Agreed, Ray: I was coming from this position in my post.

To all, I still think that wanting to find patterns in a natal chart which explains an illness is very very un-substancial. We can look at the 6th house ruler and in which sign it is placed, maybe indicating that that part of the body could be sensitive to a certain ailment, like Virgo with the intestines. But there is no such thing as a signature for an illness in astrology.

When a person with AIDS should come to me, asking "where can you see in my chart why I have this illness" I will answer: I cannot see this and it is also not important to know because it wont help you feel better.

What is important to me is how you deal with this illness. I believe that AIDS is one of the very few illnesses which has nothing to do with underlying mental problems like anger, fear, what have you. It falls under the category of infections you get from something you have no control over. Partly of course, we now know that protected intercourse can avoid getting this illness so a littlebit of control is possible, but an infected bloodtransfusion you cant do anything about, nor being born as a child from an AIDS infected mother.

So I also dont go into the "lets look at how your childhood was" and see why you are now having this or that problem when dealing with a client wanting to know about this illness.

The only thing we as astrologers and counselors can do is helping this person to cope with this life threatening illness. And that we can do with the help of the natal chart.

starlink said:

To all, I still think that wanting to find patterns in a natal chart which explains an illness is very very un-substancial. We can look at the 6th house ruler and in which sign it is placed, maybe indicating that that part of the body could be sensitive to a certain ailment, like Virgo with the intestines. But there is no such thing as a signature for an illness in astrology.

When a person with AIDS should come to me, asking "where can you see in my chart why I have this illness" I will answer: I cannot see this and it is also not important to know because it wont help you feel better.

What is important to me is how you deal with this illness. I believe that AIDS is one of the very few illnesses which has nothing to do with underlying mental problems like anger, fear, what have you. It falls under the category of infections you get from something you have no control over. Partly of course, we now know that protected intercourse can avoid getting this illness so a littlebit of control is possible, but an infected bloodtransfusion you cant do anything about, nor being born as a child from an AIDS infected mother.

So I also dont go into the "lets look at how your childhood was" and see why you are now having this or that problem when dealing with a client wanting to know about this illness.

The only thing we as astrologers and counselors can do is helping this person to cope with this life threatening illness. And that we can do with the help of the natal chart.

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Thank you for this!

That is why I was so heated up about finding these diseases in a chart, because it could be anything related to the immune system. Hundreds of diseases out there. What good would it do to go back and see what caused it to happen when it happened already.
But
Then again same with a personality flaw, finding it in a chart makes one feel better, as though there is an answer for a bad temperment or a life-threatning illness. Answers are one of the first common responses after finding out they have a life-threatning illness. A part of the coping process.

Geez I am always on both sides of an issue.

Geez I am always on both sides of an issue.

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Some Libra in that chart of yours??

waybread said:

Agreed, Ray: I was coming from this position in my post.

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All is good, we have the same view. I posted a Chiron article in my group on this topic, I shall be good messenger and deliver it here soon. People may be interested to read the article it is directly related.

Here is the Article

Hi

I recently did a small project on HIV /AIDs as part of my healing course.

I think someone posted that is due to immune problems.

so perhaps a chart would show times of low energy or vulnerability to health issues rather than a chart that could directly link to HIV.

I was interested in posting as the comment about pluto in virgo.
I have pluto and uranus sort of conjunct in virgo(a sixties chick)

however what I wanted to say look at the global response to Hiv since it has been discovered. It has been quite phenomanal with new drugs now to prevent what was initially a very poor prognosis. as a result of the work into virus's that this occured on a global scale - there has been more research into virus's and immunology which has a big impact on other health issues ie cancer(some linked to presence of virus's)

virgo is very much linked to healing and medicine .

clearly there is still a very long way to go but this virus has brought a lot of issues - to the surface including sexuality related issues.

This is a global view rather than personally/individual.

I agree it was very brave to post your details with this illnes.