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  #1  
Unread 04-26-2008, 03:52 AM
Yoi Yoi is offline
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Bullying

What in a chart do you think indicates someone who has a tendency to be bullied?

Bullying is about abuse of power so I suspect a negative Pluto and Mars influence. People who are bullied often, but not always, have poorer social skills than the norm (making them "outsiders" and hence more likely to be victimised) so I expect to see this in the chart as well.

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Unread 04-26-2008, 03:56 AM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: Bullying

Hi Yoi

Maybe one aspect is Pluto square Saturn. I think there is a lot of power there and if its not owned by the owner of that aspect, then someone else will use it against them...

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  #3  
Unread 04-26-2008, 04:21 AM
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Re: Bullying

I might also look for problems in the 11th house. The bullied are often those who seek acceptance from a peer group but somehow fall short of it.
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Unread 04-26-2008, 07:32 AM
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Re: Bullying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoi
What in a chart do you think indicates someone who has a tendency to be bullied?

Bullying is about abuse of power so I suspect a negative Pluto and Mars influence. People who are bullied often, but not always, have poorer social skills than the norm (making them "outsiders" and hence more likely to be victimised) so I expect to see this in the chart as well.
Bullying can also be triggered by a powerful Scorpio sign and/or house (8) occpancy. If Pluto (=power, control, manilpulation) is either placed in the outer world houses like 10 or 11 or even 1 (your own house), and negatively aspected (through Mars or Saturn esp), then such tendencies exist, and if there's a Jupiter also involved then tendencies are enhanced.
Pluto = power, control, manilpulation; the house it is in itself and/or the houses of the planets it adversely effects, is where we tendentially exercise Pluto's 'qualities'.
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Unread 04-26-2008, 10:23 AM
Rasalhague Rasalhague is offline
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Re: Bullying

Actually I was a victim of bullying in elementary mostly. Highschool I just kept to my own. College is actually where I made my first friends that are still with me today. I never bullied others. My 8th house is heavily occupied: Sun, Moon, Merc, Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, Pluto (bordering 9th though). I find it dangerous to attribute poorer social skills to those that are bullied (Yoi). Though I'm sure something is 'lacking', even I wouldn't have the word to describe what it exactly is. So I understand where you're coming from. Though a lot of my planets remain in the 8th house, a lot of them are in libra. Whatever you do, just be careful to point out people based on this as 'on the bullying side' or 'the bullied'.

I think that Wilmingtonian has a point, I might want to add that I think it is the opposite that has the same effect. People that don't seem to seek acceptance nor demand it from others envoke the same mechanism (I'd look for a strong Uranus or freely placed Sun). A lesser degree of demand in this area is often not understood and it is a very Uranian quality. For their emotional security (4) people like knowing others 'look asif' they are dependent on them, making the environment stable and secure. Anyone that is not in their eyes displaying a dependency on their grace can be perceived as a threat. We could argue whether interdependency is part of social skills and group relations (11). There are probably very good reasons to include it if it is in final belief only dependency is the glue that holds groups of people together. Reading this I know it will create an eerie uncomfortable feeling in your gut no matter how positive you stand on the subject. This is probably where it all starts. I'd look in the direction of house 4 to see what's going on with the bullied / the bully.

Sorry if I seem somewhat disagreeable, but I had to share my story (and thoughts) on the subject.
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Unread 04-26-2008, 01:03 PM
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Re: Bullying

Yoi, (et al)
I have observed, in the natal charts of those who claim to have been bullied, planets in signs where they are not strong-especially mars.In Libra and cancer, mars can be somewhat ineffective and mars does involve our defensive actions.
However, one could argue that almost, if not all, of the planets could potentially be involved in configurations that cause the native to be ineffectual in defending him/herself.
A major problem I have encountered is difficulty in determining whether or not the native has been the subject of bullying or the perpetrator of it.I have seen a mars square pluto aspect play out *both ways*.
In order to determine the strength of the native as a whole being, one must consider the whole chart.No aspect plays out in isolation of any other aspect.
I would expect to see Chiron afflicted in the chart of a bullying victim-yet I have seen this in the chart of a bully also-.
Some people love to be the *victim*-or to perceive themselves that way.This can be effectively projected onto others, and the fulfilment of the *script* occurs in the synastry between *victim* and *perpetrator*.
Also a person can be a bully in one context and a victim in another.
cheers, Lillyjgc
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Unread 04-26-2008, 11:08 PM
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Re: Bullying

I think this is a great subject and if some people who were bullied in primary school would post their birth data, someone might take up the challenge of drawing the charts and seeing what they had in common.

I was bullied at home (by parents) but never in school. I sometimes wondered why, as I was a bit shy, but I was also taller than most of my classmates in grade school and also have Scorpio rising..LOL.... that might have had something to do with bullies targeting other girls and not me. I was a little overweight also during the years of 5th grade through 10th, but rarely was this mentioned. However, I went to school many years ago and it's possible that today I WOULD be a target.

Women I worked with later in my life would often say they were sexually harrassed, but again, I think my Scorpio rising and Mars near my MC sort of made men I worked with think twice before trying that with me.

I do remember the first week of one job in a brokerage house, where I was a secretary, one of the brokers taking one look at me and asking, bluntly, "YES? or NO?" and I said NO!!! And that was that. I might have been intimidated had I been younger, but as it was, it was the exact right answer, and very fast.... I never gave myself time to think about it. NO was my first word as a baby. LOL.....
LIN
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Unread 04-27-2008, 01:09 AM
Yoi Yoi is offline
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Re: Bullying

Hi Rasalhague,

The reason why I put in lack of social skills is because practically every article I have read about bullying cites the lack of social skills of the victim as one of the chief (but not sole) reasons for bullying. Of course it is no excuse for the bully but they does seem to be a general perception that this is one of the main reasons why certain kids get singled out for bullying. Of course I haven't had much personal experience with bullying myself and the articles could be wrong...

Just speaking from my limited experience - I disagree that people who don't seek acceptance or demand it (e.g. strong Sun, Uranus) tend to provoke the same mechanism that causes bullying. One of my best friends was like this in school. She came from a very unconventional background, openly took on the "cool" crowd and she not only did not suffer any repercussions she got a lot of friends and was the centre of a large social group, including some of the "cool" crowd. I would say her popularity ended up being equal to the cool crowd. Not that she cared. If people abandoned her because they didn't like her taking on the cool crowd she wouldn't have cared. Accept me as I am or don't - I don't care. I know her well and I know this wasn't an act. It was just the way she is. I don't think it is so much the rejection of the individual of the group that causes bullying (in fact this could even be considered "cool" depending on the individual) as it is the rejection of the individual *by* the group. Given this, putting an emphasis on House 11 may be correct. If you are accepted or even embraced by the group you can be as individualistic, weird, a loner or even as disagreeable as you like (think of some of today's celebrities...). It's hard to describe, but you know if you like someone you can more easily excuse their bad sides and mistakes but if you don't like someone the exact same issues are harder to tolerate? In the end it may come down to just like/dislike on a group-wide basis.

I would also look at the 10th house as a lot of bullying is done by authority figures e.g. teachers, bosses and also one could argue that it is the lack of an authority figure stepping in and stopping bullying that could contribute to it continuing.

Last edited by Yoi; 04-27-2008 at 01:56 AM.
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Unread 04-27-2008, 02:13 AM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: Bullying

I was bullied at school, primary and secondary, my chart details are in my signature. I've been studying a bit about Saturn lately and have the following aspects that may have contributed to my bullying:
Saturn inconjunct with Venus
Saturn trine Moon

I think, Saturn inconjunct Venus means I dislike the female aspect of myself, or had difficulties with this until I matured enough to see this. So because I could not accept or was uncomfortable with this part of myself, I attracted bullying from people to confirm my negative beliefs about myself (if that makes sense..). In secondary school the bullying was only from a group of girls. It could also be because I seeked approval from others, also the opposite sex, to prove my beliefs about myself wrong.

And Moon trine Saturn, not so sure about that one, could show a neediness that attracted bullies.

NR
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  #10  
Unread 04-27-2008, 04:08 AM
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Re: Bullying

Well I kind of got picked on a lot at school for being odd and different. I was a loner. I didn't stand up for myself as I couldn't be bothered to and had oddly low self-confidence (sun opp sat) but thought that I was better than them and thus, never bothered to gain social acceptance. I also got bullied at work, by that stage, I developed confidence, and although this person kept on bullying me (and others), I think I showed them. I think the reason why attracted it though was because people see me as nice and a pushover. Things like asc trine nep, jup trine nep, chiron in 1st, a pathetic saturn, libra moon must make me look like a softie.

My details are:
Sun/merc rx - Aqu/10
Uranus Sco/7
Moon/pluto rx Libra/7
Venus sag/9 (unaspected)
Jupiter 1st (conj AC)
Chiron 1st
Saturn rx Cancer anarectic
Neptune sag/8th

Aspects
1: Neptune (Sag) Sex [Lib] Pluto - sep 1:31' - power: 63.05
2: Mars (Gem) Opp (Sag) Neptune - sep 1:32' - power: 38.10
3: Jupiter (Ari) Opp [Lib] Pluto - sep 6:09' - power: 28.88
4: Jupiter (Ari) Tri (Sag) Neptune - sep 4:37' - power: 27.25
5: Mars (Gem) Tri [Lib] Pluto - sep 3:04' - power: 26.00
6: Saturn [Can] Squ (Sco) Uranus - sep 7:40' - power: 16.33
7: Sun (Aqu) Opp [Can] Saturn - sep 2:52' - power: 12.48
8: Mars (Gem) Sex (Ari) Jupiter - sep 3:05' - power: 10.94
9: Sun (Aqu) Squ (Sco) Uranus - app 4:47' - power: 10.43
10: Mercury [Aqu] Opp [Can] Saturn - app 3:13' - power: 9.50.
11: Mercury [Aqu] Squ (Sco) Uranus - sep 4:26' - power: 8.91
12: Sun (Aqu) Con [Aqu] Mercury - app 0:21' - power: 4.83
13: Moon (Lib) Opp (Ari) Jupiter - sep 2:48' - power: 4.32
14: Venus (Sag) Tri (Ari) Jupiter - sep 8:16' - power: 1.75
15: Moon (Lib) Con [Lib] Pluto - sep 8:57' - power: 1.31
16: Mercury [Aqu] Tri [Lib] Pluto - sep 9:09' - power: 1.27
17: Moon (Lib) Tri (Gem) Mars - sep 5:53' - power: 1.23
18: Moon (Lib) Squ [Can] Saturn - app 8:38' - power: 0.96
19: Sun (Aqu) Tri [Lib] Pluto - app 9:30' - power: 0.94
20: Moon (Lib) Sex (Sag) Venus - app 5:28' - power: 0.12
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  #11  
Unread 04-27-2008, 07:17 AM
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Re: Bullying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasalhague
Actually I was a victim of bullying in elementary mostly. Highschool I just kept to my own. College is actually where I made my first friends that are still with me today. I never bullied others. My 8th house is heavily occupied: Sun, Moon, Merc, Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, Pluto (bordering 9th though).
That's strange, because using the data you provided, I see Pluto in the 9th. AC is 10Cap48. I must have made an error.

Your Sun, if I have the right data, appears to be unaspected when considering major aspects. But let me make sure if my data is correct before making any more guesses.

I think that all of us have the potential to be bullied or to bully, but most of us develop boundaries that allow us to protect ourselves and self-control to keep from being unfair or unkind to other people, even in anger. At least most of the time.

Any indication of lack of self-confidence could potentially cause someone to be pushed around or bullied. In addition, when people are outsiders and are not confident about being that way, they may attract abuse when young before developing "protections" to guard themselves, as they get older.

I was such a person, and when I was very young, I didn't realize I appeared different. So I was a target. In a fairly short amount of time (before 6th grade) I realized I was vulnerable and learned to protect myself by keeping most of my feelings and thoughts to myself.
Quote:
I find it dangerous to attribute poorer social skills to those that are bullied (Yoi). Though I'm sure something is 'lacking', even I wouldn't have the word to describe what it exactly is.
"Social skills" may be no more than the ability to sense how other people see us and the experience to filter what we project so that we are able to protect ourselves. I would include under "social skills" being able to intuit which people I can trust and which would use my honesty as a weapon or tool to manipulate, dominate or discredit me. I had to develop those skills.

Quote:
Sorry if I seem somewhat disagreeable, but I had to share my story (and thoughts) on the subject.
I didn't see anything disagreeable about what you said.

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Unread 04-27-2008, 08:49 AM
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Re: Bullying

my daughter gets bullied alot and has poor social skills.She also has a very controlling grandmother whos taught her to be afraid of everything.My daughter is picked on daily at school and has no freinds at all..She plays by herself.Only seems to get along with children younger then her.Its all very sad.When i try to get her new freinds she seems to turn them off because she has been so spoiled by her grandmother and told so many wrong things,that she simply cannot relate.

This has been goin on since shes been born.grandmother another topic(shes extremly mentally ill),but needless to say shes a fearmonnger and it sems her lessons have held on tighht to my daughter.

At any rate my daughter is behind socially and has regressed mentally..The courts will not take away visitations to the grandmother,but..it seems i may be in for some luck soon after 11 years of battle...Ms grandma may finnaly be stopped..

My daughters chart would be a good refrence for bullying but i will not post it.If anyone cares to see it send me a message.

Bullying hurts big time and it damages and scars and as a parent of a child whos is bullied on a daily basis,i know and see the effects of it
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Unread 04-27-2008, 09:03 AM
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Re: Bullying

Its an interesting and complex subject and many different planetary configurations could set us up for bullying
But a few ideas came to my mind - some propted by prior posts
- Often there is a polarity with an astrological signature eg the signature can indicate one who is bullied or could bully
- following from that it is possible that others may sense our power when its unacknowledged by us. THose others may rise to seeminly protect themselves from our power or try to take that power from us.
- I agree with prior posters that when one has some powerful signatures in our chart like Pluto in aspect to luminaries, Saturn Pluto in aspect, a stellium in the 8th etc we may feel very visible
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Unread 04-27-2008, 09:12 AM
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Re: Bullying

Raselhague,
I've had a look at your chart too- I notice pluto is part of a yod that apexes with Chiron in Taurus..You also have mars closely conjunct your node in the seventh house-of others, also enemies who are known to you.Mars rules both your third house of mental activity (among other things) but also communication.Mars also rules your tenth house of career/reputation/interactions with authorities.Uranus is in that house (using placidus cusps) and opposite chiron.
As you have experienced being bullied (and honestly I think we *all* have to some degree!) maybe it is these aspects that need to be considered,
Cheers, lillyjgc
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Unread 04-27-2008, 09:37 AM
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Re: Bullying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natasha
- following from that it is possible that others may sense our power when its unacknowledged by us. THose others may rise to seeminly protect themselves from our power or try to take that power from us.
- I agree with prior posters that when one has some powerful signatures in our chart like Pluto in aspect to luminaries, Saturn Pluto in aspect, a stellium in the 8th etc we may feel very visible
I can only endorse, what Natasha has very aptly said, on my own account.
I have always been completely confused about why people (mostly women) get jealous and even go on the defensive (and then attack) in my case. I have a powerful Pluto squaring my Moon conjunct Mars. To crown it all, I have a Leo Rising... (check out the Thread: Leo Rising).
So it doesn't matter, if I consider; no, even believe myself to be a friendly, do-good and help-all soul because people actually tell me in my face that I come across as very powerful (only I know my deep-ingrained fears) and all-present person (and I'm of average height and of a narrow-bone structure, so it's not the stature; Pluto shines through
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Unread 04-27-2008, 03:46 PM
Amit89 Amit89 is offline
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Re: Bullying

Intresting thread.

I got picked on at high school, mainly in my latter years. I had a speech problem and this was the sole reason I got picked on. I also got picked on outside of school as well. I have pluto (scorpio) in house 3, opposing moon (taurus) in house 8. Pluto was also squaring mars (leo) in house 11 and moon sqauring mars, so this formed a t-square. I was shy at school and timid, I also had no self confidence and was very defensive, this is because I feared that something might happen to me if I told anyone. I shifted the power to them.

Now I'm older and more mature, I'v built a lot of self confidence and I'v transformed. I'm not any more defensive and I'm much more stronger.

If anyone wants to have a look at my birth chart:

DOB: 28/06/1989
Time: 11.28am
Place: Birmingham, England

Last edited by Amit89; 04-27-2008 at 05:25 PM.
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Unread 04-27-2008, 04:48 PM
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Re: Bullying

Quote:
Originally Posted by pudinnpop
my daughter gets bullied alot and has poor social skills.She also has a very controlling grandmother whos taught her to be afraid of everything.My daughter is picked on daily at school and has no freinds at all..She plays by herself.Only seems to get along with children younger then her.Its all very sad.When i try to get her new freinds she seems to turn them off because she has been so spoiled by her grandmother and told so many wrong things,that she simply cannot relate.

This has been goin on since shes been born.grandmother another topic(shes extremly mentally ill),but needless to say shes a fearmonnger and it sems her lessons have held on tighht to my daughter.

At any rate my daughter is behind socially and has regressed mentally..The courts will not take away visitations to the grandmother,but..it seems i may be in for some luck soon after 11 years of battle...Ms grandma may finnaly be stopped..

My daughters chart would be a good refrence for bullying but i will not post it.If anyone cares to see it send me a message.

Bullying hurts big time and it damages and scars and as a parent of a child whos is bullied on a daily basis,i know and see the effects of it

Uhh, geeze. Maybe you should get her away from her grandmother!
You're hurting your daughter by putting her near that woman.
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Unread 04-27-2008, 05:06 PM
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Re: Bullying

I was bullied at school because I was different, and my father also suffered the same fate as a kid. Now, I am scared of children.
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Unread 04-27-2008, 08:33 PM
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Re: Bullying

I know someone with Mars square Pluto, and Pluto conjucts the Ascendant, in the first house. He'll argue at the drop of a hat. It's impossible to have a conversation with him because he finds everything annoying. It's best if I stay away. He's just trouble.
Mars square ascendant can have a bullying problem. Mars opposition ascendant in the seventh house can have bullying problems in relationships. Mars opposition Midheaven, or in the fourth house, can be bad for the home. Fights with your siblings, breaking your furniture, possibly.
Mars square Saturn can hurt others without realizing it, I hear. I'd agree.
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Unread 04-27-2008, 08:35 PM
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Re: Bullying

They also say Chiron in the first house particularly either wounds others or gets wounded themselves.
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Unread 04-27-2008, 09:30 PM
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Re: Bullying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hey
They also say Chiron in the first house particularly either wounds others or gets wounded themselves.
More like wounded! Look at my stuff above.

Is there any more opinions on bullies themselves?

The work bully which I put up with was gem sun/pisces moon (inner conflict) with mars conj saturn and merc squ mars. Shame I don't know what time they're born.
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Unread 04-27-2008, 09:35 PM
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Re: Bullying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hey
They also say Chiron in the first house particularly either wounds others or gets wounded themselves.
Yes, that's quite right, I've also noticed this in many charts. Currently the bullier (the person bullying others) at my place of work also has Chiron (in Taurus) though technically still in 12, but very close to the ASC, though unaspected.
Bur she also has Sun, Mars and Venus all in 12, so she should be making many enemies, thanks to her attitude, shouldn't she?
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Unread 04-28-2008, 03:33 AM
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Re: Bullying

I see it in one person. Someone I know has Chiron conjunct the ascendant in Gemini, and she verbally abuses everyone. She's made quite a few enemies along the way, including her poor family. Her frequent phrase is, "Are you stupid?"
I'd say she's quite successful at what she does.
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Unread 04-28-2008, 04:14 AM
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Re: Bullying

um no.....ive tried for years in the courts...they will not take vistations away..But like i said theres a new day comin and i may be able to get the visits lessened.
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Unread 04-28-2008, 07:19 PM
zekar zekar is offline
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Re: Bullying

Being bullied is a self-esteem & social acceptance thing.
This means look all things Leo.
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