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  #326  
Unread 07-17-2020, 02:24 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Of course. I believe all men are created equal. I don't care about ethnicity, and we are all entitled the same rights and respect.
At last, a complete post, not just a section of it, that I can agree with. Who would have thought... wonders never cease, do they?

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  #327  
Unread 07-17-2020, 02:31 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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At last, a complete post, not just a section of it, that I can agree with. Who would have thought... wonders never cease, do they?
Why would I have a problem with people from other ethnicities?

We don't disagree on the issues or on the desired result.

We only disagree on the method on how to achieve such results. Thats all - and has been the same on every thread.

I think government's only purpose is to protect the rights of its citizens.

To me integration and acceptance have to occur naturally.

Enforcing integration only causes the problems you have now.

Government shouldn't force people to either segregate or integrate.

Human beings are born free, and should be treated as such. As long as we respect each other's right, we don't really need government interference. Goverment to me should only step in, when someone's rights are violated.
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Unread 07-17-2020, 02:40 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Asians in the U.S. are pretty well accepted aren't they? Asians are pretty well accepted pretty much everywhere to be honest...[/B]
So why is that? They are not white either. They are different skin colour as well. They also speak English with an accent, as do many English speakers themselves. Some dress differently even (perhaps not so much the Japanese or Chinese, but Indians in their sarees, etc).

Everybody is smart in their own way and has something pleasant to add to society, if people would only be more open-minded and not denounce one right from the start based on stupid skin colour.

Or is it that, given the history of slavery in this country, people still associate that with a certain section of society. But then I ask myself, shouldn't that motivate people to be in fact even more tolerant and kind towards that section of society to make it up to them?

I mean, Germany, with its horribly dark past, tries to make amends through taking in many refugees. I mean of course one hand washes the other, and they too gain from cheap labour, you know for the menial jobs that most Germans consider well, menial. I know it, I lived there for quite a while But this is to just give an analogy.
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Unread 07-17-2020, 03:08 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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So why is that? They are not white either. They are different skin colour as well. They also speak English with an accent, as do many English speakers themselves. Some dress differently even (perhaps not so much the Japanese or Chinese, but Indians in their sarees, etc).

Everybody is smart in their own way and has something pleasant to add to society, if people would only be more open-minded and not denounce one right from the start based on stupid skin colour.

Or is it that, given the history of slavery in this country, people still associate that with a certain section of society. But then I ask myself, shouldn't that motivate people to be in fact even more tolerant and kind towards that section of society to make it up to them?

I mean, Germany, with its horribly dark past, tries to make amends through taking in many refugees. I mean of course one hand washes the other, and they too gain from cheap labour, you know for the menial jobs that most Germans consider well, menial. I know it, I lived there for quite a while But this is to just give an analogy.
The problem is that there have always been political interests to keep black people poor and as the "boogeyman" in american society.

When slavery ended the black community became a huge voting block which favoured the republican party and gave them a massive advantage over democrats. In fact, after the civil war, republicans held the presidency for the next 70 years. But this danger to the democrats occured both on the federal elections, and state elections. Most black people... lived in southern states.

For democrat politicians, this was bad. For southerners this was also bad, because regular black people were now direct competition for jobs, in the southern states which had a less developed economy.

This is why southern democrats passed the so called "jim crow" laws. The objective was to prevent blacks from properly gaining employment in the south, and thus discouraging black people from staying in southern states. Finally they also created the KKK, the armed wing of the democratic party, whose objective was to terrorize blacks and control their numbers through murder.

The plan of the democrats was to "expel" black people from the south, so they could keep their political privileges in their southern states.

The rest is history. Black people were pushed into poverty. They were prevented from having acces to education, and thus better employment. And as it happens with every poor tier in every society, criminal activity is more prevalent on such sectors.

Generation after generation, children grew up seeing blacks as inferior to whites. Because the black community was never allowed to progress. They were always seen as "poor". They were seen as dangerous. Combine that with propaganda from the democrats, along with rumors, myth, etc.

The rest is history.

This is my perception. I could be wrong. But its historically accurate.
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  #330  
Unread 07-17-2020, 03:24 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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...Black people were pushed into poverty. They were prevented from having acces to education, and thus better employment. And as it happens with every poor tier in every society, criminal activity is more prevalent on such sectors.

Generation after generation, children grew up seeing blacks as inferior to whites. Because the black community was never allowed to progress. They were always seen as "poor". They were seen as dangerous. Combine that with propaganda from the democrats, along with rumors, myth, etc.
...
Dirius, your above post came very close to the point I made in previous one as to why blacks might huddle together and why ghettos form. Think about it. When do you feel safe 'with your own kind' - whatever it is that might bind a certain section of society together.
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However, on a more general note, could it be humanly possible that when a certain section of society is continually persecuted (I mean we are talking centuries here), even today, that they feel they are only accepted by people with the same skin colour, want to feel wanted and welcome, and need to mingle? Who does not need friends or want to feel welcome? And when you have faced dismissal and rejection from others based merely on your skin-colour and hair texture (I mean how absolutely bonkers is that!!!) would you remain just as 'adventurous' to keep trying, or would you be, you know, as a human being, just a bit hurt and broken? I mean look at how Wan is struggling to justify her condemnation of a section of society. And this struggle and whining has nothing to do with real life scenario, such as when nobody is going to not want to interview her for a job because one is not of a certain skin colour, etc.

I mean there are people that call 911 because they see two black guys waiting in Starbucks. This is the society we live in and we are discussing why it is wrong for somebody to come here on the forum and publicly say they find that certain section of society "ugly" and suggest they should emigrate? As if it were as normal as saying - I don't like cauliflower so throw it out of the fridge.

I am shocked that so many posts are reqd. by a no. of people to make some understand what is wrong with ostracizing and persecuting Americans in America!!! Honestly. I guess the education system needs more fixing than one would think.
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Unread 07-17-2020, 03:49 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

Media aside, here is an experience I recently had. Just two weekends ago, I drove through Newark in NJ to go pick something up at a Home Depot there. I drive through this area for about roughly 3 mins. or so, and all I see is really shabby looking, completely dilapidated houses one after another. A really run down section of housing area. Like in a row of say 10 houses, 8 were so run down. In front of some, some cheerful looking teenagers sat cackling and gossiping. Somewhat a group of men chatting with each other. But all black. I drove on and until I came fairly close to that Home Depot, I saw perhaps almost exclusively just that section of society - and how they lived. It was my first time in that Home Depot, and even though I have been to some other parts of Newark, but not that one, it was baffling that you saw no co-mingling there at all. It was very telling. It is like 'cast aside'. Isn't that sad? I mean if people had the choice, why would they not mingle? Nobody can deny that there is a certain hesitation and within some people's hearts there is fear of rejection and hurt due to rejection, whilst others bear some loathing, almost revulsion in their hearts. How can one human being be that way to another. I mean just based on skin colour and dreadlocks? Isn't that utterly dreadful? I would feel so horribly guilty if I ever behaved that way.

All the rest, like taking to criminality and forming of ghettos are nothing but results of such ostracism and exclusion of certain groups in many ways - and what for? Because people don't like the shape of their nose, or the skin tone or hair texture? Is that what we call a 'civilised' and 'educated' society? I mean most of us, if treated normally, equally and fairly right from the start, have the chance to get education without fear of ridicule, selection in jobs based solely on merit and not on skin colour and looks, etc., would prefer to earn our bread and butter that way, instead of through theft and whatnot. I would take to that too, if I had almost no other choice and had a family to feed, or whatever. Many are forced into criminality. Others take to it out of hate and revulsion towards a certain section of society. Then the former feels they need to retaliate, and soon the whole thing is out of hand.

Have you ever been to NYC and walked around the Penn Station area? Or the 8th ave? a big part of even the posh 5th ave, and many streets in Midtown Manhattan. You will see almost 98% of the people begging are blacks. Nobody can tell me they beg and that it is such a high percentage because it is in their genes or that they enjoy it. It is because of the reasons you pointed out in your previous post. It is because of decades and decades of being socially disadvantaged, oppressed and marginalised. No wonder some blacks think, very sadly though, if you are not a thug, you are not black - I read this on a link I think somebody (I think bb, but could be wrong about that) posted on another thread, but with a different intent.

Once somebody in my social circle told me how he was taught by his father, as part of preparing him for job interviews, to practise proper grammar... things like "you was sitting down" would straight away give away that one was black, and he gave me a few other examples - like a double negative in a sentence and certain pronunciation.

Whilst nobody should be forced to do anything, or gov's should not force integration on people, but the problem is that some only 'behave' when rules are forced on them. Else, if certain people had their way, they would hire only 'their kind' going just by looks. And this would be the case in any many other areas of society.

Have you seen the movie Hidden Figures?
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  #332  
Unread 07-17-2020, 03:53 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Whilst nobody should be forced to do anything, or gov's should not force integration on people, but the problem is that some only 'behave' when rules are forced on them.
Ok, so you fancy yourself an authority on what constitutes "good behaviour" (all without consulting others) and not only that, you feel that you would be justified in forcing people to behave in the way you like.

Very interesting. Tell me more.

Last edited by wan; 07-17-2020 at 04:04 AM.
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  #333  
Unread 07-17-2020, 06:22 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

Aquarius7000, one thing I might note about run-down urban housing, is that normally the occupants do not own the building. It is owned by a landlord who doesn't fix up the place.

A historical note: After the Civil War, most African Americans remained in the South, working in agriculture under an arrangement known as share-cropping. This was pretty hard labor, much of it by hand, or farming with mules. When the US closed its gates to foreign immigration in the 1920s, and especially during the boom times post-WW2, a lot of Blacks moved to northern cities that offered manufacturing jobs. When cotton production in the South became mechanized and didn't need so much labor, there was a further push for them to head north for job opportunities.

Unfortunately by 1980, a lot of the northern factories had moved overseas, out to the edge of the city where undeveloped land was available, or to new locations promising tax incentives and non-union labor.

African Americans often got caught in the squeeze, lured north by jobs that evaporated, leaving them behind in urban centers with a shrinking tax base, as white Americans and businesses moved to the suburbs. A lot of the suburbs were either red-lined or had restrictive covenants prohibiting home owners to sell to Black people.

It is worth noting that something like 40% of African Americans today quality as middle class.
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  #334  
Unread 07-17-2020, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by wan View Post
Ok, so you fancy yourself an authority on what constitutes "good behaviour" (all without consulting others) and not only that, you feel that you would be justified in forcing people to behave in the way you like.

Very interesting. Tell me more.
In principle, is it justifiable to enforce ANY rules of behavior on ANYONE?
If so, why some rules and not others?
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  #335  
Unread 07-17-2020, 11:37 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Dirius, your above post came very close to the point I made in previous one as to why blacks might huddle together and why ghettos form. Think about it. When do you feel safe 'with your own kind' - whatever it is that might bind a certain section of society together.
I didn't say this wasn't the case - I just said self segregation is not something you should look forward to, much less sanctioned and enforced by law. This would only bring you more division, and discrimination.

People should be free to live or get together with whomever they want. I'm just saying that creating "black only" zones (or for any ethnicity) is not something which will bring unity.

What you need is to get the government and policitians out of your life, and let the communities slowly heal. It may take time, but natural integration is the only way to a peaceful society.
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  #336  
Unread 07-17-2020, 12:23 PM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Media aside, here is an experience I recently had. Just two weekends ago, I drove through Newark in NJ to go pick something up at a Home Depot there. I drive through this area for about roughly 3 mins. or so, and all I see is really shabby looking, completely dilapidated houses one after another. A really run down section of housing area. Like in a row of say 10 houses, 8 were so run down. In front of some, some cheerful looking teenagers sat cackling and gossiping. Somewhat a group of men chatting with each other. But all black. I drove on and until I came fairly close to that Home Depot, I saw perhaps almost exclusively just that section of society - and how they lived. It was my first time in that Home Depot, and even though I have been to some other parts of Newark, but not that one, it was baffling that you saw no co-mingling there at all. It was very telling. It is like 'cast aside'. Isn't that sad? I mean if people had the choice, why would they mingle? Nobody can deny that there is a certain hesitation and within some people's hearts there is fear of and hurt due to rejection, whilst others bear some loathing, almost revulsion in their hurts. How can one human being be that way to another. I mean just based on skin colour and dreadlocks? Isn't that utterly dreadful? I would feel so horribly guilty if I ever behaved that way.
I agree. But the only way this can be succesful is if people mingle naturally. You really can't have a government program to make people like each other.
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All the rest, like taking to criminality and forming of ghettos are nothing but results of such ostracism and exclusion of certain groups in many ways - and what for? Because people don't like the shape of their nose, or the skin tone or hair texture? Is that what we call a 'civilised' and 'educated' society? I mean most of us, if treated normally, equally and fairly right from the start, have the chance to get education without fear of ridicule, selection in jobs based solely on merit and not on skin colour and looks, etc., would prefer to earn our bread and butter that way, instead of through theft and whatnot. I would take to that too, if I had almost no other choice and had a family to feed, or whatever. Many are forced into criminality. Others take to it out of hate and revulsion towards a certain section of society. Then the former feels they need to retaliate, and soon the whole thing is out of hand.

Have you ever been to NYC and walked around the Penn Station area? Or the 8th ave? a big part of even the posh 5th ave, and many streets in Midtown Manhattan. You will see almost 98% of the people begging are blacks. Nobody can tell me they beg and that it is such a high percentage because it is in their genes or that they enjoy it. It is because of the reasons you pointed out in your previous post. It is because of decades and decades of being socially disadvantaged, oppressed and marginalised. No wonder some blacks think, very sadly though, if you are not a thug, you are not black - I read this on a link I think somebody (I think bb, but could be wrong about that) posted on another thread, but with a different intent.
A couple of decades ago, like early 20th century, most people were probably a bit racist. But this doesn't mean most people in society were actively working on harming the black community. In fact most of them did nothing to the black community, they just had "bad" thoughts about them

The actual oppression came from the government. It was the government who passed laws preventing them from accessing better jobs, or education, and who protected a paramilitary group to hunt down and terrorize black people.

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Once somebody in my social circle told me how he was taught by his father, as part of preparing him for job interviews, to practise proper grammar... things like "you was sitting down" would straight away give away that one was black, and he gave me a few other examples - like a double negative in a sentence and certain pronunciation.

Whilst nobody should be forced to do anything, or gov's should not force integration on people, but the problem is that some only 'behave' when rules are forced on them. Else, if certain people had their way, they would hire only 'their kind' going just by looks. And this would be the case in any many other areas of society.

Have you seen the movie Hidden Figures?
Here is the part I disagree.

Capitalism is color-blind. You want to hire the best person for the job. If you are not doing that, you are hurting your business, and thus the chances of profit. And in many jobs, the best qualified individual is sometimes the one who comes cheaper and has a lower cost. The one you can hire for the lowest possible salary.

Historically people were able to "compete" in the job market against better qualified candidates, by offering to work for lower salaries.

This was a strategy the black community employed to be able to compete with white people. While a white person would work, for example, for $6 an hour, a black person would offer to do the same job for $4. And this is done by a lot of people, even now days, from any race. You market your skills at a lower price in order to compete with those who have either superior skills or more experience.

Now I expect most who read this will feel "horrified" by the idea of unequal payment. However this allows people to access better jobs and have an income, which is better than not having one. And you can always re-negotiate a better salary later on, or eventually move on to a higher paying job.

First, it was the goverment who passed laws which made it harder for black people to apply to specific jobs, or interact with the general public.

It was government laws like minimum wage that actually hurt the uneducated workers more, because it removed the ability for low skilled workers (many of them minorities) to compete with college educated white people. This made it harder for black workers to find jobs which makes it harder for them to provide their children with a proper education.

When government got involved in the economy - its when you begin to have problems.
-- -- --

Look at Jews, Asians or Indians. They initially suffered from some form of racism in the U.S., but there were never laws which targeted them, in contrast with the laws against black people.

Slowly, through generations, without government aid or persecution, they integrated very well and got wealthier and wealthier, and their standard of living increased, and in some cases, surpassed the average earning of white people. In a natural manner without government interference.
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Last edited by Dirius; 07-17-2020 at 12:36 PM.
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  #337  
Unread 07-17-2020, 01:57 PM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Ok, so you fancy yourself an authority on what constitutes "good behaviour" (all without consulting others) and not only that, you feel that you would be justified in forcing people to behave in the way you like.

Very interesting. Tell me more.
Engaging in an eristic discourse can also be used to pass time. Who cares about the real message of the content? Just argue for the sake of arguing because that can be such a boost for the ego.

Even if somebody murders someone, one could argue - why are you enforcing upon me to not engage in such criminality. Their logic would be because nobody should force anything upon anyone. After all, they are unable to distinguish in which situations to apply that logic of not forcing things upon someone, and in which situations absolutely not.
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  #338  
Unread 07-17-2020, 02:00 PM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Even if somebody murders someone, one could argue - why are you enforcing upon me to not engage in such criminality.
Because of reciprocity. You respect others, they must do the same.

If you infringe on the rights of others, others will infringe on your rights.

You commit a crime against someone else, others will lock you away in jail or kill you. (I'm personally not in favour of death pentalty though).
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  #339  
Unread 07-18-2020, 03:00 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Engaging in an eristic discourse can also be used to pass time. Who cares about the real message of the content? Just argue for the sake of arguing because that can be such a boost for the ego.
I do care about and did get the message of your post, and it is this: you personally think being racially tolerant is good, so you try to use the coercive power of the government to force people to be tolerant.

Quote:
Even if somebody murders someone, one could argue - why are you enforcing upon me to not engage in such criminality. Their logic would be because nobody should force anything upon anyone. After all, they are unable to distinguish in which situations to apply that logic of not forcing things upon someone, and in which situations absolutely not.
The difference is this: it's a good idea to have laws/rules in place against murder, because murder is universally agreed upon to be bad. Whereas racism isn't. Just look at how many otherwise good people do not want to mix with blacks.

Last edited by wan; 07-18-2020 at 10:54 PM.
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  #340  
Unread 07-18-2020, 03:21 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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In principle, is it justifiable to enforce ANY rules of behavior on ANYONE?
If so, why some rules and not others?
Some rules are fine and even necessary. The key thing is that it must be universally agreed upon. For example, we all agree that murder is wrong, rape is wrong, assault is wrong...etc, so it's OK to have rules in place against these things.
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Unread 07-18-2020, 06:04 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Why would I have a problem with people from other ethnicities?

We don't disagree on the issues or on the desired result.

We only disagree on the method on how to achieve such results. Thats all - and has been the same on every thread.

I think government's only purpose is to protect the rights of its citizens.

To me integration and acceptance have to occur naturally.

Enforcing integration only causes the problems you have now.

Government shouldn't force people to either segregate or integrate.

Human beings are born free, and should be treated as such. As long as we respect each other's right, we don't really need government interference. Goverment to me should only step in, when someone's rights are violated.
Then a thread on the United States politics should be meaningless to you. In the US, the purpose and duties of the three branches of federal government are spelled out in the Constitution. They are miles apart from your professed beliefs. I think this thread is about your wanting the United States to be something it is not.

Have you read the US Constitution, Dirius? Some of the amendments are extremely important, like the 14th Amendment of 1868, shortly after the end of the Civil War. It enshrines the right to equal protection under the law.

The Preamble to the Declaration of Independence states:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness.

So what happens when someone's rights to "liberty and the pursuit of happiness" get trampled on by bigoted people, due to conditions of birth, such as ethnicity/race, gender, religion, or political beliefs?

This is really what the Black Lives Matter is about. If all are entitled to equal protection under the law, and if all are entitled to equality, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, then it is essential that the nation live up to its own charters.

The often-noted irony is that the Declaration of Independence was written when a number of the founders were slave holders. But over time, various disadvantaged groups have held the country's feet to the fire. If "all men are created equal" then there is no justification for discriminatory legislation or practices based upon ethnicity. The concept of "men" over time has expanded to include women, people with disabilities, and people of different sexual and gender orientations.

The idea of "immigration and acceptance occuring naturally" (whatever "natural" means to you,) is the old "evolution vs. revolution" argument. No group of oppressed people have obtained their rights by sitting meekly by and waiting for their "superiors" to deign to hand them more rights. People living under discrimination have always had to fight (whether metaphorically or literally) to obtain justice and equal protection under the law.

"Enforcing integration"? Seriously. You know about the practice of redlining and restrictive home-owners covenants in American cities? Black Americans lived with enforced segregation that prevented them from having the same rights to choose their homes that white Americans enjoyed. Hence the Fair Housing Act of 1968.

You know about Jim Crow laws in the South, abolished only by the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and innumerable related court cases?

You're not writing about the United States, Dirius. I actually don't think you're writing about any country on the map.
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Last edited by waybread; 07-18-2020 at 06:13 AM.
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  #342  
Unread 07-18-2020, 09:56 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Then a thread on the United States politics should be meaningless to you. In the US, the purpose and duties of the three branches of federal government are spelled out in the Constitution. They are miles apart from your professed beliefs. I think this thread is about your wanting the United States to be something it is not.

Have you read the US Constitution, Dirius? Some of the amendments are extremely important, like the 14th Amendment of 1868, shortly after the end of the Civil War. It enshrines the right to equal protection under the law.

The Preamble to the Declaration of Independence states:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness.

So what happens when someone's rights to "liberty and the pursuit of happiness" get trampled on by bigoted people, due to conditions of birth, such as ethnicity/race, gender, religion, or political beliefs?
Did I say these are the functions of the US government? No I did't.


Those are just my personal beliefs of how an ideal form of government should work.

You are resorting to a strawman argument in the beginning of your post, because your entire argument is invalid from the start.

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This is really what the Black Lives Matter is about. If all are entitled to equal protection under the law, and if all are entitled to equality, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, then it is essential that the nation live up to its own charters.
Not true because BLM movement has a lot of other propositions and objectives in their agenda, completely unrelated to what you have just mentioned.

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The often-noted irony is that the Declaration of Independence was written when a number of the founders were slave holders. But over time, various disadvantaged groups have held the country's feet to the fire. If "all men are created equal" then there is no justification for discriminatory legislation or practices based upon ethnicity. The concept of "men" over time has expanded to include women, people with disabilities, and people of different sexual and gender orientations.

The idea of "immigration and acceptance occuring naturally" (whatever "natural" means to you,) is the old "evolution vs. revolution" argument. No group of oppressed people have obtained their rights by sitting meekly by and waiting for their "superiors" to deign to hand them more rights. People living under discrimination have always had to fight (whether metaphorically or literally) to obtain justice and equal protection under the law.

"Enforcing integration"? Seriously. You know about the practice of redlining and restrictive home-owners covenants in American cities? Black Americans lived with enforced segregation that prevented them from having the same rights to choose their homes that white Americans enjoyed. Hence the Fair Housing Act of 1968.

You know about Jim Crow laws in the South, abolished only by the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and innumerable related court cases?

You're not writing about the United States, Dirius. I actually don't think you're writing about any country on the map.
So you then agree it was the government who enforced segregation upon black people in the first place.

And what did abolitionists fought against? the legal status of slavery enforced by the state governments - this is why the fight for the end of slavery began in congress, not in the battlefield.

And what was the civil rights movement? Protests against laws limitating their liberty.

These movement simply overturned already existing government laws, and created new laws and constitutional amendment which would prevent such segregation from being enforced ever again them.

The 14th amendment does not force integration. It simply recognizes every slave as a citizen with the same rights as white people.
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  #343  
Unread 07-18-2020, 04:42 PM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Some rules are fine and even necessary. The key thing is that it must be universally agreed upon. For example, we all agree that murder is wrong, rape is wrong, assault is wrong...etc, so it's OK to have rules in place against these things.
And racism that often leads to murder is not wrong?

That makes a lot of sense
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  #344  
Unread 07-18-2020, 04:43 PM
wan wan is offline
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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And racism that often leads to murder is not wrong?

That makes a lot of sense
Racism can lead to murder but not always.

According to your "logic", when people are angry, they can murder someone. Does that mean we are going to outlaw anger now?

Furthermore, do you admit that you and people like you try to use the government's coercive power to force people to be tolerant?

Last edited by wan; 07-18-2020 at 04:48 PM.
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Unread 07-18-2020, 09:38 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Racism can lead to murder but not always.

According to your "logic", when people are angry, they can murder someone. Does that mean we are going to outlaw anger now?

Furthermore, do you admit that you and people like you try to use the government's coercive power to force people to be tolerant?
Not "tolerant" in the mental and emotional sense. More like "civil", "courteous", and "respectful", despite intolerant thoughts and feelings.

Freedom of Speech makes it possible to express intolerance in words, but not in actions.

Keep in mind that words can be used to wound the feelings of others, and words deliberately spoken to provoke fear, anger and violence, or cause injuries and deaths, are more in the category of actions.

Last edited by david starling; 07-18-2020 at 09:40 PM.
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Unread 07-18-2020, 09:49 PM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Not "tolerant" in the mental and emotional sense. More like "civil", "courteous", and "respectful", despite intolerant thoughts and feelings.
If you personally want to be civil, courteous, respectful etc, that is your right. But please do not pass laws to force others to do the same.

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Keep in mind that words can be used to wound the feelings of others, and words deliberately spoken to provoke fear, anger and violence, or cause injuries and deaths, are more in the category of actions.
Sorry but no. Either words are words, or they are "actions" (which, by the way, only you believe). They are not "more in the category of actions". It sounds like you are spin-doctoring.

You seem to really want to curtail people's freedom of speech and make them unable to say racist things. I am not sure if I agree with this.

Last edited by wan; 07-18-2020 at 09:53 PM.
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  #347  
Unread 07-18-2020, 10:21 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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If you personally want to be civil, courteous, respectful etc, that is your right. But please do not pass laws to force others to do the same.



Sorry but no. Either words are words, or they are "actions" (which, by the way, only you believe). They are not "more in the category of actions". It sounds like you are spin-doctoring.

You seem to really want to curtail people's freedom of speech and make them unable to say racist things. I am not sure if I agree with this.
Go ahead then: Shout "fire" in a crowded theater with only one exit, and when people are trampled to death, claim it was a fair exercise of Freedom of Speech.

So, you don't consider "speaking" an action? As opposed to just "thinking" ? Would just thinking the word "fire" have had the same result?

Last edited by david starling; 07-18-2020 at 10:31 PM.
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  #348  
Unread 07-18-2020, 10:27 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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The "As for me, give me Liberty or give me death!" speech by Patrick Henry is said to have sparked the Revolutionary War.

What if he had just sat there and thought it?
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Unread 07-18-2020, 10:45 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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There's a well known expression, "The act of speaking one's thoughts aloud."
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Unread 07-18-2020, 10:48 PM
wan wan is offline
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Go ahead then: Shout "fire" in a crowded theater with only one exit, and when people are trampled to death, claim it was a fair exercise of Freedom of Speech.
I am not sure about the legal ramification of this action. It's up to the individual jurisdictions to determine whether this is a fair expression of freedom of speech.

Quote:

So, you don't consider "speaking" an action? As opposed to just "thinking" ? Would just thinking the word "fire" have had the same result?
Speaking is indeed an action, however words themselves are not actions. I am sorry that I need to be telling you this.

Anyways, a question for you: should we pass laws to prohibit people from saying hurtful, racist things? Yes or no.
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