Will my colleague get the job she applied for?

Hi all,

My colleague is aiming to get a job and had an interview two weeks ago. I was wondering whether or not she would get the job, so I asked that question: "Will my colleague get the job?".

First thing I should mention is that Saturn is on the Asc (ruling against judgement) which is never a good sign, so I'm wondering if I should even judge the chart. Also, Asc is in the Via Combusta. Still, I, the querent, am not the one who the question is for. It is a question for the colleague.

If I do judge it further, I take her as Venus. Venus is in Gemini, in Saturn's triplicity and term, with Saturn ruling her 10th house of career.

Still, Saturn, the job, is in her 7th house, suggesting that her competition got the job. Saturn is also in Scorpio, not Venus' favorite sign.

Moon is seperating from a sextile to Saturn, Moon is in Saturn's rulership sign. I would say that whoever represents the Moon (or Mars, ruler of her 7th house) got the job, even though Moon doesn't really like Scorpio either, and Moon is in bad shape. Still, her significator makes no aspect to Saturn whatsoever. Mars is in Taurus but in Saturn's term.

Maybe this chart also says that I should ask at a later stage because it isn't quite known yet. It seems to me that both Moon and Venus have pro's and cons (Venus is in better shape but makes no aspect, has not made any aspect, to Saturn whatsoever).

It could also signify that Moon/Mars got chosen but turns out to be a bad choice in the end (Moon/Mars in bad shape).

Also, I asked about her in colleague terms, but she's become a friend over the past few months. Things change (only, I think) in terms of her condition if I take her to be Mercury (ruler of 11th house of friends). Still, she would make no aspect to her then 10th house, being the Moon.

What do you think?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

I would take Mercury, ruler of the 11th, as your colleague and friend. Mercury has dignity as ruler of Gemini, whereas Venus is peregrine.

Many astrologers these days give the sixth house to "the job", and the 6th from the 11th is the radical 4th house, which is ruled by Saturn. Saturn is a significator here then and so not a caution against judgement.

As for the ascendant being via combusta and so a prohibition to judging the chart, I think that is one of the aphorisms in Ptolemy's Centiloquy, but few traditional astrologers mention this as an impediment to judging the chart, so let us pass over this.

The Moon is void of course. It makes no aspect before leaving Capricorn. The Moon is in its detriment in Capricorn, so this is testimony that nothing will happen - in the short term anyway.

Mercury's next aspect is a trine to Saturn, but it will have to leave Gemini to make that and Saturn retrograde perhaps indicates a return to an old job?

Hi Harold! Thanks for your reply.

First off, the Moon is not VOC, right? It will trine Mars in Taurus before leaving the sign of Capricorn.

The job is a PhD position, so I was wondering if maybe it could also be ruled by the 9th house.

If we then take her to be Mercury, her 9th house is ruled by Venus, and Mercury and Venus make a separating aspect whereas Venus applies to Jupiter.

Jupiter would be her 7th house, again suggesting competition got the job even though she was probably the better candidate (Mercury in Gemini vs. Jupiter in Gemini).

I'm more and more getting the vibe that she will not get it.. :-( She will get the news tomorrow.

dourage said:

Hi Harold! Thanks for your reply.

First off, the Moon is not VOC, right? It will trine Mars in Taurus before leaving the sign of Capricorn.

Click to expand...

Yes, quite right. I miscounted signs

With Saturn on your ascendant and the Moon applying to Mars, I wonder if you involvement in this job is purely objective...?

Qualification: Actually, the Moon will go void of course. It is currently separating from a sextile to Saturn and will separate from Saturn (outside the moiety of the orbs) before starting to apply to Mars. If the moon did not go void of course, it would translate the light from Saturn to Mars and that might imply "the job" going to you - which would not be right.

The fact that "the job" is a Ph.D. position does not make it 9th house. If it is a job where you arrange your own workload and work as you think fit then that is thought of as a 10th house sort of job. In 10th house jobs, you are being paid for the work you do, not the time you spend doing it. If someone else is arranging your workload, it is a 6th house sort of job as you are then effectively selling your time. So, a research postdoc may well be a 10th house position.

I don't think it will go well, I will take this lady to be 7th ruler - Venus, as you co-worker.

Venus is peregrine and about to conjunct Jupiter in detriment in the 8th house. This doesn't look promising, both these benefic planets are in bad shape. Moon is in detriment, day chart, no dignity at all. And yes Void. The job is 10th from 7th, radical 4th - Saturn. Saturn is angular Rx and peregrine, also in detriment of Venus. It appears there is some issue with the position itself, perhaps they have changed their mind, perhaps they are not offering it the way they advertised it.....they also would not consider your co-worker for it....Venus being peregrine, I think she is not completely qualified for this job, or at least they may not consider her to be the right person.

Saturn placed in 1st house, if I take 1st as her opposition, her competitor, maybe the job will go to her competition, but as Saturn is Rx, again it shows some problem with the position and the competition may not get advantage of it either....

Now, if I take her to Mercury, 11th ruler, Mercury is Void.... again pointing to not much happening here...

please update!

Thanks both!

Yes, my position is entirely objective, at least, as far as me wanting the job goes. I'm doing something else entirely (work in the support staff section) so I have no particular ambition for this job and did not apply either or anything. But of course, I would love for her to get it..

Ok, if you two or one of you could please explain to me the VOC concept in a bit more detail I would really appreciate it... I thought it would only be VOC is there is -no- other aspect the Moon makes before leaving the sign... but now it is also about it being within orb? I thought I totally understood all that but apparently not.. ;-).

Anyway, I will surely let you know what happens! And thanks again!

Well, this is quite unusual. They told her she would hear it today but no such luck. I'm starting to believe in this theory of yours, rafaella. It's so strange that it's taking them so long to decide (especially since this is a position that opens up every year, so every year procedures are the same). She hopes to hear something tomorrow. Maybe they will give out two positions or something... hmm... anyway, will keep you updated!

dourage said:

Ok, if you two or one of you could please explain to me the VOC concept in a bit more detail I would really appreciate it... I thought it would only be VOC if there is -no- other aspect the Moon makes before leaving the sign... but now it is also about it being within orb? I thought I totally understood all that but apparently not.. ;-).

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It is said that the film "Apocalypse Now" was inspired by watching some astrologers arguing about Void of Course

Most modern authors on horary astrology writing more than, say, fifteen years ago would have agreed with your definition of VOC. However, the increasing availability of traditional (pre 1700) texts on horary astrology have shown that traditionally, the Moon was considered VOC if it had fully separated from any previous aspects, and was not applying to any other planet while in that sign.

It was that phrase, "....while in that sign." that confused modern astrologers. What it actually means is that it is only the aspects that the Moon makes while it is in that sign that are considered in the horary judgement. It does not mean that the Moon must perfect an aspect while in that sign, which is how many modern astrologers interpret it. (An aspect is 'perfected' when it is exact.)

A word about aspects.

Here, the Moon is separating from an aspect, and applying to an aspect, if it within the "moiety of the orbs" of the Moon and the other planet. The traditional orb of the Moon is 12 degrees, the orb of Mars is 7 degrees and the orb of Saturn is 9 degrees. To find the "moiety of the orbs", add the orbs of the Moon and the other planet and divide by two. So here, the moiety of the orbs is 10.5 degrees for an aspect between the Moon and Saturn, and if the Moon has separated from its sextile to Saturn by more than 10.5 degrees, it is no longer in aspect. Too, the Moon is not 'applying' to its trine to Mars unless it is within 9.5 degrees of perfecting the aspect. If the Moon has separated from one planet and is not yet applying to any other planet, it is Void of Course.

Traditional authors would write the aspects the Moon made on their square charts, and it is from a study of these charts that one gains a clear understanding of what traditional authors meant by VOC.

For the chart above, an astrologer would have written in the middle:-

"☽ a ∗ ♄, ad vacuo, ad △ ♂, ad △ ☉"

Here, a is the Latin for 'from' and ad is the Latin for 'to'

So, this would mean that the Moon was separating from a sextile to Saturn, (but still within aspect), and was moving towards being Void of Course (ad vacuo meaning, 'towards a vacuum', when it would have no effect). The Moon would then apply in trine to Mars, perfecting that aspect, and then apply in trine to the Sun before leaving the sign of Capricorn.

This is an important point. The Sun is at 6 degrees of Gemini and so the Moon would not perfect its trine with the Sun before it left Capricorn. It is enough that the Moon is applying to its trine with the Sun before it exits Capricorn, and even if Mars was not there, the Moon would still not be VOC on account of its applying trine to the Sun.

Dourage and Forum,

Many times it is very difficult to arrive at the correct house, and unlike William F. Lilly, some artists have gone on such tangents that it would appear that any house can represent the matter. If you read John Gadbury's Doctrine of Horary Questions you may note that Gadbury is copying Lilly's CA with a few feralized deviations.

Dourage, if I understand Lilly's CA, and your collegue actually works with you they are the horary's 6th, co-workers or servants of the employer as in this debate:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6892&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

As Lucifer is lord of this horary's 6th, the 6th becomes the derived asc. Thus the horary's third is the house of the quesited, the derived 10th of your collegue. Note Chronus , lord or derived house of the quesited, is Rx and unaspected. Typically, or rather generally the first perfecting aspect to the lord of the matter has the answer about 85% of the time. Yet, Terms, Face, Dignity, etc., and Lilly's point system should be utilized to weigh the testimonies within the horary.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILwF5AvP7zQ

Psalm 19:1-4 New International Version (NIV)

1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice[b] goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.

But Lilly's point system can give you great confidence if you go thorough the time consuming steps as he did to be credible.

Dear Harold and Clinton Soule,

Thank you both for very detailed replies.

Harold, I think I understand it much better now. It makes sense, too. Thank you for taking the time to type all that and explain it to me . I very much appreciate it.

Clinton Soule, yes, she works with me. We're not doing the same job but we share an office.

Still, I think almost everything in this horary points to her not getting the job, or there being something strange about it. If we take her to be Mars, she is not in good shape in Taurus, and Saturn, being the matter asked after, like you say Clinton Soule, is in Scorpio, rx and unaspected.

Harold said:

Most modern authors on horary astrology writing more than, say, fifteen years ago would have agreed with your definition of VOC. However, the increasing availability of traditional (pre 1700) texts on horary astrology have shown that traditionally, the Moon was considered VOC if it had fully separated from any previous aspects, and was not applying to any other planet while in that sign.

It was that phrase, "....while in that sign." that confused modern astrologers. What it actually means is that it is only the aspects that the Moon makes while it is in that sign that are considered in the horary judgement. It does not mean that the Moon must perfect an aspect while in that sign, which is how many modern astrologers interpret it. (An aspect is 'perfected' when it is exact.)

Click to expand...

This may clear up a few misconceptions:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7399

So look at the moieties of Luna and Kronus are they separated yet truly VOC?

Nope, they connect, so the VOC doesn't apply here!


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Genesis 1:14 (ESV)
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years,

Hi all,
She called me late yesterday night to let me know:

she got the job!!! Super happy for her, but how did that happen with this chart?!

dourage said:

Hi all,
She called me late yesterday night to let me know:

she got the job!!! Super happy for her, but how did that happen with this chart?!

Click to expand...

Congratulations to your friend! Yes, I am surprised to see she got it as well, this chart didn't seem that good, but perhaps all is not known yet... maybe there are still problems with the position and time can tell.

I also think we may have chosen wrong significators, which is usually the culprit. I chose her to be 7th house and its ruler, Harold chose 11th, Clinton suggested 6th...Ha!

I also have to clarify, did you ask the question or did she? Did she ask you to pull up the chart for her, in that case she would be 1st house. The other thing I need to clarify, you said it is a Phd position - what exactly does this mean? Is it a regular job where she gets paid to lecture or is she a student studying to get her PhD? To me what you said in later post seems more like 9th house matter rather than 10th, I didn't pay attention to that post when I interpreted the chart.

The last thing I want to touch upon -Moon is in detriment and Void, but will trine Mars with strong reception by exaltation, so perhaps this shows the person to gain what she wants after delay (Void). But we need to be clear about significators....is she 11th house, 7th house or 6th...lol

To you, is she more a colleague or a friend, when you think of her? 6th I generally don't use for co-worker, because it has implications of someone who is serving you, someone who is a 'servant'... and she is not.

Anyways, good chart to practice on, let us know of anything changes....I am still curious as to that Rx Saturn in 1st and Moon/Mars detriment... it just points to some troubles.

best wishes!

Hi Rafaella!

Thanks for that! I will pass your congrats on to her

I suppose that now she is more of a friend than a colleague... we started out as colleagues but like I said, I asked the question using the word and approach 'colleague' more because of the fact that she shares an office with me. We do not really work together in the sense of shared professional activities, we just work for the same institute.

With PhD I mean she is trying to become a Dr... she's been accepted to start writing her dissertation now. She will get paid for it, unlike in the US I think (I think in US you have to pay for it like a master's degree but in my country you get paid, i.e. you land a job meaning you have to lecture and in the meantime your do your research/write your dissertation). At the end of 3 years you defend your diss. and hopefully become a Dr.

As far as asking the question goes: I asked it. She did not ask it and she did not ask me to ask it, ha ;-).

I have not yet talked to her extensively but as soon as I get the chance, I will ask about the details.

So. If we then take her to be my friend, she would be 11th. Mercury is in own sign in Gemini. if we take her 9th house, ruling planet would be Venus. Mercury and Venus just seperated, suggesting that maybe at the time I asked the question, it was already known that she would get it?

Still, it is all quite far-fetched i.m.h.o. And like you said, the Saturn rx is strange. Although it is in 'my' house (the querent's house) and if we use the 11th and 9th house significators, it should not even play such an important role in the chart I guess.

dourage said:

With PhD I mean she is trying to become a Dr... she's been accepted to start writing her dissertation now. She will get paid for it, unlike in the US I think (I think in US you have to pay for it like a master's degree but in my country you get paid, i.e. you land a job meaning you have to lecture and in the meantime your do your research/write your dissertation). At the end of 3 years you defend your diss. and hopefully become a Dr.

Click to expand...

Depends on the area of study. My son had a full ride, a teaching assistantship and then a research assistant ship, plus a large living stipend, on his way to his PhD in experimental nuclear physics. He did take a good three years to do his doctoral research on an accelerator, and then more than a year to write up the 200 pages of the study. However, in most areas outside of the hard sciences, you pay for it yourself. I stopped at the Masters in Counseling Psychology, simply because I didn't have $25,000 to spend, nor would I make enough money to pay it off. And that was 30 years ago. Now the same PhD would be about 75-150,000 bucks.

So... the house of your friend is actually the 9th. If she was in a post doc research position, then it would be the 10th of career, since its an essential part of the career not just a job, that you do now and then go on to something else. However, if the post doc is just to get different experiences in different parts of the field at the post doc level then I would call it the 6th house of just a job not the 10th of career, IMO, of course.

If it was the 11th as your friend, then the 8th became her house or work or career. Zeusis separated from Hermesby about 41 minutes; Lilly allowed 6 minutes separation. Mercury speed is over two degrees while Anphroditeis just over one degree, can they or have they perfected since Anphrodte is so slow compared to Hermes?

I still say she is his co-worker, the horary's 6th.

Now I have Not read John Frawley only listened and respected those that have.

But how does Frawley utilize the Outers?

In Conjunctions to what?

And I'm not being a heretic of Tradition but if this horary was Regio instead of Placidus look where Uranus might be.

And I'm Not sure that is a Frawley technique having not read him as of yet but I think he uses Outers on house cusps or something simular!

For this horary defys the norm.

In hindsight note Terms, Face, dignities, lord of the hour, and Lilly's point system. Because this is why Lilly utilized it to weigh in all the varibles as conflicting testimonies in the horary as the lord of the matter many times will Not have the true verdict.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Ecclesiastes 3:1-4 "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;" (King James Version)

Clinton Soule said:

Now I have Not read John Frawley only listened and respected those that have.

But how does Frawley utilize the Outers?

In Conjunctions to what?

And I'm not being a heretic of Tradition but if this horary was Regio instead of Placidus look where Uranus might be.

And I'm Not sure that is a Frawley technique having not read him as of yet but I think he uses Outers on house cusps or something simular!

Click to expand...

There are no references to the outer planets in any Frawley I have read. But I have not read all Frawley.

If you have not read him at all, it contributes little to the elevation of the discourse here to repeat what you have heard from third parties about him.

Ilene stated:

There are no references to the outer planets in any Frawley I have read. But I have not read all Frawley.

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There are those devoted students aboard Angelicus Merlin forum and Skyscript.co.uk that say in their devout studies that Frawley does utilize the Outers yet Not ever ruling house cusps as I understand from those committed students.

I will have to get the quotes of how he, Frawley uses those heredical Outers that Ultra-Trads cringe upon hearing their names.

Every night as I read Christian Astrology after I diligently study the Bible I find errors where I misunderstood Lilly and where others who claim Lilly as their icon of horary also have misunderstood what he said; and other Contemporay Traditionalists have spoke of where Lilly misunderstood a few Ancients.

Ilene:

If you have not read him at all, it contributes little to the elevation of the discourse here to repeat what you have heard from third parties about him.

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I have not digested nor read all of the documents from the Ancients that Lilly lists in CA as of yet, so should I neglect what he tells us since I have not as of yet digested his source's writtings as he and the Ancients he gleaned from are horary authoritys just as present day students gradually become authoritys?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Matthew 18:18 "Verily I say to you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on the earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Darby Translation)

Rafaella stated:

The last thing I want to touch upon -Moon is in detriment and Void, but will trine Mars with strong reception by exaltation, so perhaps this shows the person to gain what she wants after delay (Void).

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Until a few months ago I had the same misunderstanding but Luna is Not VOC...no way...this has been a misconception by many!

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7399

CA II, page 110:

"Separation, it is in the first place, when two Planets are de-
parted but six minutes distances from each other, as let SA be in
10. degr. and 25. of Aries and JU in 10. degr. and 25. min. of Aries:
now in these degrees and minutes they are in perfect 0°; but
when JU shall get into 10. degr. and 31. or 32. minutes of Aries,
he shall said to be separating from SA; yet because SA hath
9. degr. allowed him for his rayes, and JU hath also the same
number allowed him, JU cannot be said to be totally separated
or cleere from the rayes of SA, untill he hath got 9. whole de-
grees further into ar, or is fully 9. degr. distant from him,
for the halfe of JU his orbe is 4. degr. 30. min. and the halfe of
SA his orbe is 4. degr. 30. min. added together they make 9.
whole degrees; for every Planet that applies is allowed halfe
his owne orbs and halfe the orbs of that Planet from whom
he separates: As if SO and MO be in any aspect, the MO shall then
be separated from the SO, when she is fully distant from the SO
7. degr. and 30. min. viz. half the orbs or the SO, and 6. degr. the
moity of her owne orbes; in all 13. degr. and 30. minutes."

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Luna is separating but Lilly pointed out that separation in the moeities connect is Not VOC!

Rafaella stated:

To you, is she more a colleague or a friend, when you think of her? 6th I generally don't use for co-worker, because it has implications of someone who is serving you, someone who is a 'servant'... and she is not.

Click to expand...

Are you implying that this may be a Moderne emphasis, misunderstanding just as there are those Modernes who place one's work or career within the 6th?

This needs to be discussed because it is a grey matter, but if you boil the water long enough you might clean up the water!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Matthew 2:1 “Therefore when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Juda, in the days of king Herod, lo! astrologers [Io! kings, or wise men,] came from the east to Jerusalem,” (Wycliffe New Testament)

Ok, I think I finally understood this... it seems like it defintely is a 9th house matter, as the friend is basically a student even though 'working' and getting paid....she is working for her degree and so are you right, Dourage? Are you a student as well, both Phd students? If that is the case then I'd use the 11th ruler for her rather than 7th.

I think this is the reason Saturn is in 1st, it restricts the querent, the right information was restricted...Even though you see her as a co-worker, you both are working...but you still have someone who is supervising you and guiding you to gain the degree at the end. For the sake of horary one has to be precise, very technical in who is asking, what is being asked about, which house...Lilly even warns this to his students in his book - be clear which house to use!

So if she is 11th ruler Mercury, which is greatly dignified, her 9th is Venus. Venus and Mercury have separated, but Jupiter collects the light of Mercury and then Venus conjucnts Jupiter to conjoin both of their lights... I am not completely sure whether this is true collection, as Mercury has separated from Jup, I have look into this....

The other possibility is using 6th as Clinton suggests, as this is more of an equal situation - 2 people sharing an office, students....And using radical 9th as the University, just as Judge or court is always radical 10th, university is authority and doesn't really 'belong' to querent or the friend... it is educational institute for community...So in this case I'd use Mars as 6th and Moon as 9th ruler and they do connect with strong reception after a delay (Void Moon), showing delay in the phonecall...

I can see this chart is going to be bothering me for several days to come...haha..