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  #1  
Unread 09-06-2005, 04:30 AM
kyle8921 kyle8921 is offline
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Venus' House number = physical attractiveness?

I was just wondering if this is accurate.

I have Venus in House 1, and I'd say I'm pretty attractive. My friend Steve, though, has Venus in House 12. From what most girls say... he's pretty unattractive... I mean... very.

Some of my friends who have Venus in House 6 or 7 seem about average. It seems the further along Venus is, the less attractive someone becomes.

Another friend of mine has Venus on the border (at 0 degrees exactly) in House 1 and 2, and she's very attractive also.

To further prove this point, George Clooney had Venus in House 1. I bet many more good-looking people do too.

Is there any connection?

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we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P. Lovecraft
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  #2  
Unread 09-06-2005, 11:53 PM
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I'm going to say I doubt it. I'm biased, though. My venus is in the twelfth house, and while I wouldn't have said I was a model, I'm not exactly hideous, either. I've never noticed in any of the charts I've looked at a connection between the two concepts, at any rate.

Besides, 'attractiveness' is entirely subjective. I can understand a person claiming that certain placements may be involved with certain pysical traits, but I don't really think 'attractiveness' counts as a trait. Also, you have to consider the possibility that genetics plays a part, too - astrology isn't the only force at work in the world.
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  #3  
Unread 09-07-2005, 12:10 AM
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Venus in the houses

Kyle,

Venus focused in the 12th house is Venus focused in the house of its exaltation, indicating that it is very strong. Venus focused in the 1rst house is Venus in the house of its detriment, indicating that it is weakened. Venus is, in part, about relating to others and the 12th house is an area which "dissolves" us into others, which is very powerful relating! The first house is about asserting ourselves, which is the opposite of relating, so Venus is challenged here. As was mentioned, a person who is "attractive" may have other factors than Venus in their chart which give them that attractive quality.

Explaining,

Tim
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Unread 09-07-2005, 12:30 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Hi Kyle,



I do think you have an interesting theory here, but no, it doesn't hold up.
According to your theory, the closer Venus is to the first house the more attractive the individual is considered to be.

How about the Sun in house 1 corresponding to egotism and an inflated sense of your own self importance perhaps?

As for Steve's 12th house Sun, consider that Maddonna, one of the greatest female sex symbols of the 20th Century had her Sun in the 12th.

I think it is interesting to try and define physical attractiveness in the birth chart, but I think your method is far too simplistic to hold any weight.

I think its more complicated and detailed than that. It would require a great deal of research. Yet still, I think it's an interesting idea, and it shows that you are getting a good grasp of astrological symbolism. As yes, Venus is beauty, and the first house is the expression, appearance and physical self. You have to remember though, that you must be much more general when interpreting a chart, and you should never consider one planets placement in the birth chart in isolation, without studying how it resonates with every other planetary placement until you get a broader 'feel' for the 'energies' described.

I'm not trying to knock you back here, I'm just telling you to be broad minded and a little more investigative.

For example, I looked at Britney Spears' birth chart once, and I noticed that her chart has a Grand Earth (physical) Trine, involving Venus and Mars, which I felt may to some extent, contribute to her beauty.

Catherine Zeta Jones, who is undeniably gorgeous, also has a Grand Earth Trine involving Venus and Mars. Again, this may contribute to her beauty also. However, Catherine has her Sun in the 9th, so according to your theory, she should be less than average, as far as physical attraction goes.

However, if I was to conclusively state that, 'all persons having a Grand Earth Trine involving Venus and Mars will be very physically attractive.', then that would be as mistaken as you stating, 'the earlier house a persons Sun is in, the more attractive they will be.'.

I think you have an interesting theory about early house Sun placements, and attractiveness, but, what if a person with Sun in the 1st has other indications in the chart which would limit attractiveness, and so limit the beautifying effect of the 1st house Sun?

I have an interesting theory also about the Venus/Mars Grand Trines in Earth, but then the same can be said about my observation, what if if there are other, stronger indications in the chart that would limit the beautifying effect?

This is where we have to be careful in astrology, in making such sweeping assumptions.

As I said however, your idea is very interesting. Perhaps if we were to gather the birth data for as many famous super-models or beautiful film stars as we can, it might be interesting to test our theories out. Perhaps early house Sun placements and earthy trines involving Venus and Mars would show up to be significant? It may be that we could find other indications implying beauty and attractiveness in the chart which we haven't thought of.

Draco
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Unread 09-07-2005, 10:28 PM
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I got Venus in my Twelve house, acording to you I should be not very attractive, Im just glad I listen to my mom and she says otherwise :P
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  #6  
Unread 09-09-2005, 04:27 PM
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i'd say it also depends the aspects venus does with the other planets:take example mine:it's in the fifth house,one would say veeeeeeeeery goooooood,but it is not so fortunate 4 me because venus makes bad aspects with some major planets............and i have to confess that i have been suffering of a serious acnea problem since i was 10 years old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cry: i have scars and syuff like over my entire body!!!!!!!!!!let's say that my legs and half my arms are "spared";thank god it has started in the past one year and a half to vanish,i'm serious,though i 'm still fighting it seriously!!!my "beauty" let's say is all artificial!!!!!!!!!!!!!!i'm dependent on cosmetics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :roll: all because of the disharmonius aspects venus has with the other planets,...venus is only sustained by the sun.........a conjunction in aquarius..........and this thing i guess only means that i approach to the typical aquarian female love - way!
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Unread 09-09-2005, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco
Hi Kyle,



I do think you have an interesting theory here, but no, it doesn't hold up.
According to your theory, the closer Venus is to the first house the more attractive the individual is considered to be.

How about the Sun in house 1 corresponding to egotism and an inflated sense of your own self importance perhaps?

As for Steve's 12th house Sun, consider that Maddonna, one of the greatest female sex symbols of the 20th Century had her Sun in the 12th.

I think it is interesting to try and define physical attractiveness in the birth chart, but I think your method is far too simplistic to hold any weight.

I think its more complicated and detailed than that. It would require a great deal of research. Yet still, I think it's an interesting idea, and it shows that you are getting a good grasp of astrological symbolism. As yes, Venus is beauty, and the first house is the expression, appearance and physical self. You have to remember though, that you must be much more general when interpreting a chart, and you should never consider one planets placement in the birth chart in isolation, without studying how it resonates with every other planetary placement until you get a broader 'feel' for the 'energies' described.

I'm not trying to knock you back here, I'm just telling you to be broad minded and a little more investigative.

For example, I looked at Britney Spears' birth chart once, and I noticed that her chart has a Grand Earth (physical) Trine, involving Venus and Mars, which I felt may to some extent, contribute to her beauty.

Catherine Zeta Jones, who is undeniably gorgeous, also has a Grand Earth Trine involving Venus and Mars. Again, this may contribute to her beauty also. However, Catherine has her Sun in the 9th, so according to your theory, she should be less than average, as far as physical attraction goes.

However, if I was to conclusively state that, 'all persons having a Grand Earth Trine involving Venus and Mars will be very physically attractive.', then that would be as mistaken as you stating, 'the earlier house a persons Sun is in, the more attractive they will be.'.

I think you have an interesting theory about early house Sun placements, and attractiveness, but, what if a person with Sun in the 1st has other indications in the chart which would limit attractiveness, and so limit the beautifying effect of the 1st house Sun?

I have an interesting theory also about the Venus/Mars Grand Trines in Earth, but then the same can be said about my observation, what if if there are other, stronger indications in the chart that would limit the beautifying effect?

This is where we have to be careful in astrology, in making such sweeping assumptions.

As I said however, your idea is very interesting. Perhaps if we were to gather the birth data for as many famous super-models or beautiful film stars as we can, it might be interesting to test our theories out. Perhaps early house Sun placements and earthy trines involving Venus and Mars would show up to be significant? It may be that we could find other indications implying beauty and attractiveness in the chart which we haven't thought of.

Draco
First off, I never mentioned the Sun. I said maybe VENUS' position in the Houses affects someone's looks.

I know that other things affect it too. But you said Earth is beauty?

I have the Moon triple-trining (not quite a Grand Trine) Saturn, Netptune and Uranus all in Capricorn, an Earth Sign. The Moon's in Virgo, also an Earth sign. Jupiter in Mars in Taurus, also in Earth, and look at me, I'm dead sexy!

But seriously, no connection at all???
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we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P. Lovecraft
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  #8  
Unread 09-09-2005, 11:09 PM
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House numbers and their effect

Kyle,

You are onto some astrological knowledge, just not the way you think. The house number IS important and DOES represent a "distancing" effect from the person. The lower the house number, the more "personal" and intimate the energy, the higher the house number, the more "distant" and "impersonal" the energy. It can help to divide the chart houses up into three sections: houses 1-4 are "personal", houses 5-8 are "sociable", and houses 9-12 are "universal". As you can see, the higher the house number, the less personal the focus.

In your case of Venus, in particular, the idea of Venus in house 12 as beign somehow "weak" is not accurate. In fact, Venus is STRONGEST in house 12 and WEAK in house 1. This does not mean that Venus is weak energy by itself, but it does indicate that Venus is less about focusing on the person themselves (low house number) and more about focusing on other people and the world in general (higher house number). So when Venus gets as impersonal as possible in focus (house 12) is when it is at its most powerful.

Explaining the basics,

Tim
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Unread 09-09-2005, 11:47 PM
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Okay,

I was just suggesting you test your idea out, and was offering to help. It would just be so easy to check the idea out.

I never said Earth was beauty, I said I had noticed how both Spears and Zeta both have Venus and Mars in grand Earth trines, and I wondered if this may contribute to their beauty. Earth, I said, was physical.

I have Venus on the DC and I'm also considered attractive by others, although I would consider a man's sex appeal to be more embodied in Mars than Venus, personally. I have Mars in exaltation in Scorpio conjunct Eros and Uranus, and I'm also pretty sexy actually. Then again, as everyone has said, it's a matter of personal opinion.

What makes a person attractive anyway? As I said, it would be the Mars I'd look for in a man, Venus in a woman, but perhaps it would be interesting to look for both. I think the Sun would probably be attractiveness also, above Venus and Mars. What is it we find attractive about someone anyway? Is it their beauty or their sexiness or intelligence? Would these things not all be represented by different planets?
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Unread 09-11-2005, 04:03 AM
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Adding on to the venus in houses, I have a pisces venus in the 10th. Could be like a 12th houser venus. I'm a gal that likes to go Au Natural - however when I put make up on, everybody thinks I look like a model and I get soooooo much attention to the point where I really dislike wearing makes. Mars in cappy gives me high cheek bones and a tall 6'2 height.

Earthy
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  #11  
Unread 09-11-2005, 05:55 AM
kyle8921 kyle8921 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco
Okay,

I was just suggesting you test your idea out, and was offering to help. It would just be so easy to check the idea out.

I never said Earth was beauty, I said I had noticed how both Spears and Zeta both have Venus and Mars in grand Earth trines, and I wondered if this may contribute to their beauty. Earth, I said, was physical.

I have Venus on the DC and I'm also considered attractive by others, although I would consider a man's sex appeal to be more embodied in Mars than Venus, personally. I have Mars in exaltation in Scorpio conjunct Eros and Uranus, and I'm also pretty sexy actually, in fact most of my former jobs have depended on that. Then again, as everyone has said, it's a matter of personal opinion.

What makes a person attractive anyway? As I said, it would be the Mars I'd look for in a man, Venus in a woman, but perhaps it would be interesting to look for both. I think the Sun would probably be attractiveness also, above Venus and Mars. What is it we find attractive about someone anyway? Is it their beauty or their sexiness or intelligence? Would these things not all be represented by different planets?
Well, I kinda said "physical" attractiveness.

I guess I just assumed that you guys all knew that all beauty is just proportions and numbers and ratios and what not. Maybe Venus controls the ratios in your face to be better or worse?
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we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P. Lovecraft
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  #12  
Unread 09-11-2005, 09:50 PM
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I think what you are refering to is the Fibonocci numbers and The Golden Proportion... the ratio of 1 to 0.618.

Can you define beauty mathematically or even astrologically...

I wish we could... but personally a woman's Venus may be perfectly aspected, her face is completely symmetrical and she may be a Victoria Secret super model... but if her personality lacks... I wouldn't find her attractive.

I think beauty is always in the eye of the beholder... It would be interesting to see people's charts and their pictures... have our own "Is your Venus hot or not?"

Michele
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  #13  
Unread 09-12-2005, 02:19 AM
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Hi Kyle

Your theory doesn't hold up! I have Venus in the 1st house and according to your theory should have a "face to launch a thousand ships", if named correctly. Alas, No. Not so much 'drop dead gorgeous' as like "drop dead!!"

There again, there's always an exception to every rule. Perhaps that's me?


Take care - I'm off to sink some ships!! :roll:

hel
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  #14  
Unread 09-12-2005, 11:31 PM
Amazon1963 Amazon1963 is offline
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I thought we were all playboys and beauty queens on the internet, Venus placement notwithstanding?

Here is the chart of Marilyn Monroe, considered to be one of the icons of feminine beauty. Her venus is in Gemini in the 10th house.

http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/fa...lyn_Monroe.htm

Maybe it has to do with a combination of how the gene pool is distributed, plus some planet energies, and also how one applies those energies to both? If Monroe hadnt pursued a career in film perhaps she would have been a great hair stylist or something along those lines.

Here is Elizabeth Taylor's chart. Wow her Aries Venus is in the 7th house, yet, one cannot argue that in her youth she was drop dead reeking gorgeous, at least til the booze and drugs nearly ruined her.

http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/fa...rElizabeth.htm

I am sure there are many charts with Venus rising, ie, Angelina Jolie in which one can point out beauty and then again I bet there are many others who are considered beautiful with a farther placement of Venus besides the rising/first house.

There is also the cultural aspect on beauty as well to consider. Historically, different 'looks' have been viewed as 'true beauty'. So while one may be viewed societally as 'beautiful', in another time, their 'look' might not have been viewed as attractive.

Throwing in my two cents worth,

Amazon1963
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Unread 09-13-2005, 06:43 AM
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Venus as warrior

Amazon,

Your examples are well thought out. One minor correction: Marilyn's Venus is in Aries in the Ninth house. Using "key words" it is interesting to see this spelled out using the "astro-sentence" (for more about the "astro-sentence" see http://www.geocities.com/wilsontctc ...this is a blatant plug! ) :
Aries modifying Venus focused in the 9th house

becomes

Aries (being, also action) modifying Venus (physical/relationships) focused in the 9th house (expansion)

and there are few who would doubt that Marilyn was actively expansive in her physical relationships!

Venus in Aries is sometimes considered a "conquering" warrior-like Venus:. The person with this sign-planet combination may want to "conquer" the other person in the relationship. However, once conquered, the Venus in Aries person may lose interest in the other and look around for other people to conquer.

Conquering,

Tim
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  #16  
Unread 09-13-2005, 01:52 PM
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Venus harmoniously aspecting the ascendent would give great looks, especially the conjunction. This would include Taurus rising or Libra rising, though not everyone with Taurus or Libra rising is fabulous looking. Venus cj Mars or Pluto gives sex appeal, Venus trine Mars, Venus trine Pluto.

Venus if well aspected in any sign or house is always a plus.
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Unread 09-13-2005, 02:03 PM
Amazon1963 Amazon1963 is offline
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Ummm...wait, let me put on my Wal-Mart reading spectacles...oh sorry! Marilyn's Venus is in her 9th house. I was too quick not to see the horns on Mr Mercury! Thank you though for catching that one Tim and the interpretation of her Venus too! Yes, no doubt Marilyn was quite busy expanding the physical aspects of her chart...

And plug on! I think your perspectives and approach to reading the natal chart is very practical and informative.

Following this post has been interesting but I just couldnt sit back and not attempt to make the point about house placement and physical attractiveness. The original idea being that a rising Venus indicates great physical beauty or attractiveness just didnt sit well with me. Especially since so many people/celebrities who were or are considered 'beautiful' dont have Venus rising in their natal charts. So many other components of a person, a culture, and historical time line to consider about outward attractiveness.


Originally threw in 2 cents, got a dollar return! Awesome!

Amazon1963
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Unread 09-13-2005, 04:53 PM
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About Venus

Amazon,

As Aquarius indicated, Venus is only part of the "astro-equation" Venus is about physical, practical things (money, possessions, values, desires, etc.) and about our relationships. While it can affect a person's beauty or attractiveness, that effect comes about by Venus's combination with other parts of the chart, such as the Ascendant. An attractive person is not not made by Venus alone!

Venusifying,

Tim
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Unread 09-16-2005, 12:29 AM
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Unfortunately, I have begun to think that the idea of "beauty in the eye of the beholder" is rather dubunked. While personal taste in beauty and looks etc. varies from person to person (I don't find anything in Britney Spears attractive at all, for example), synaptically, we are wired to prefer more symmetrical/beautiful places even as babies who have not been culturally influenced yet/ institutionalized. This may sound crazy, but some evolutionary psychologists are begeinning to suspect that good looks may entail more such as high intelligence, which is based on the idea that youthful beautiful women who supposedly prefer affluent, powerful men have been entwining their genes together for generations. But I am kind of appalled by the idea because of the stupid eugenics movement and all of its bias. Yet even so, people who score above average physically certainly do make more money than their average-looking peers, at least most of the time.

Astrologically, though, I am beginning to notice that i seem to be attracted to a good deal of people with Sagittarius rising, especially those with sun in Scorpio. Now, maybe that's just coincidence, or because my fifth house is ruled by Sagittarius, or maybe something entirely different. But for some reason, guys with libra or cancer rising seem to find me attractive. In any case, personally, my Venus is in the eighth and I'm supposed to attract the opposite sex easily. I might but hey, they never approach me. The only time I ever seem to receive any requieted, mutual attention or elation from anyone is when I'm far from home, or somewhere strange, and of course I always find strangers attractive. But I'm never able to see them again, after the brief instances or whatever. How sad is that? I don't think I'm unattractive at all but maybe the fact that hardly anyone around me appeals to my taste in any way, not just physically. Or I don't know- maybe I just seem far too reserved on the surface for anyone to approach me.

By the way, Kyle, your venus is right on my descendant. Hmm, we have that whole opposite descendant- ascendant thing going... :? . I wonder if I'd find you attractive like you think you are .
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Unread 09-16-2005, 01:33 AM
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Why not some bringing the pratical evidence? Lets put our pics and give ourselfs physical attractivness score!
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Unread 09-16-2005, 12:04 PM
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www.kyle8921.blog.com (Lot's of pics of me here)

Unfortunately, I think I look terrible in pictures... I look so much better in real life...

I've got Aquarius Rising, and Venus in House 1 Aquarius.
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we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P. Lovecraft
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Unread 09-16-2005, 11:42 PM
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Yeah, my mercury and sun are both in Aquarius in my 7th house, except I think my mercury is more toward the cusp of my eighth house - hmm, mercury retrogade, go figure.

By the way, I have a stellium (I think that's what it's called...) in Sagittarius in the fifth. I hope that doesn't mean I'm going to have children! Doesn't Saturn in the fifth signify bareness (hopefully for me it does)?
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Unread 09-17-2005, 02:51 PM
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I got sun in Pisces, Taurus rising and Libra moon... I score myself 10 and I also use long hair

Mayrilin was too busy showing off her body? She's geminis, I think its something rather easy for a geminis to do!




Quote:
Originally Posted by AquariusMoon
Venus harmoniously aspecting the ascendent would give great looks, especially the conjunction. This would include Taurus rising or Libra rising, though not everyone with Taurus or Libra rising is fabulous looking. Venus cj Mars or Pluto gives sex appeal, Venus trine Mars, Venus trine Pluto.

Venus if well aspected in any sign or house is always a plus.
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  #24  
Unread 10-06-2005, 10:11 PM
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Hello. I think this thread on Venus is very good adventure into trying to learn and understand astrology/planets...though very much on the beginner level. The perspective discussed throughout the thread is one of shallowness and very typical of the sexest and racist influences of society. This is perhaps why most sites dealing with anything about looks/beauty become analretentive ...delving, exploring, and exposing their own inner search and insecurities...as well as a subconcious revolt to the social programing. Most threads of this nature refer mostly to women; sexually, physically and European/American based at that. It however even worst when those isms go applied to others as well. If one were to be honest in your heart of hearts is not this the standard by with most of you looks at yourselves and the world?. The answer of course is yes...Its easy to try to clear things up after the fact and go trying to proof differently..however this thread is dead in the water..red handed...and tacky. Regardless of how you process it or not...its a fact...and no more blairing than on this thread...astrology also is full of both as anything else it has not escaped those shapings..yet is not trapped by it. The younger people are they can often have a less experienced perspective that over time hopefully ripens into some measure of wisdom. "Personal perference" ; funny terms since so much of our lives if constantly factored before we know it. BTW the original post actaully did include men so just acknowledging that as well as the fact that the original post was not nearly as shallow as the direction the responses took it into. Venus has also some not to great qualites self-absorbed narcissism...as so well expressed in this thread... though it may certainly think not and belives its well meaning..but mostly naive.

Venus is in a house of its detriment..but 1st house is also a Cardinal house..also noted for its strength. If you are JUST going to look at beauty..there are other things to consider along with Venus placement.
I would encourage you to become familar with traditional/earlier based astrology information...although a labyrinth and quite full of debate...you at least get some idea of where what you learn today is derived from or not. The question of the original post is not their theory but has valid It wouldn't hurt to look at Vedic later and other perspectives to broaden your horizons. The roots the changes that modern astrology has taken is also worth studying...since many things are no longer used yet still valid and nontheless worth knowing about. In trying to discern physically features a lot comes along with that in looking at a chart. In any case Venus by house, sign, temperment, degree, aspects, diurnal/nocturnal birth and placements, decanate, face, terms, retrograde, station, and much more as well as other placements such as the Moon for example but not limited to it..that may offset or contribute positively to the placement. Theres a whole world in a chart once you start considering fixed starts, Trans-Neptunian Points, Arabian Parts..which would of course be later on one you look at more primary things to assess the general direction and strength of a chart or planet/light. You have to study charts...your own and people you know...those you don't then you will have to see if its bears out upon further dealing with the person. Its a learning curve..not a judgment call on the part of the astrologer or chart reader/student. Theres lot to explore...the chart is not meant to represent a static situation per say...but an unfolding, cycles...certain things.. even looks/beauty can evolve over time. There are probably many a starlette who was dorky guy or gal with Venus in Asc or first. A progessed chart scould shows early effects on ones life which might only be hinted at in the natal. Venus can also be in its symbolism..charm, and interest in what is considered beautiful..the arts for example. First house Venus might depending on the rest of the chart as well feel as if it has to be or show the Venusianism of itself because the first house is also about what people think they should identify with as opposed to being that way. Venus is seen as ruler of Taurus and Libra not to mention its fall, exaltation, and detriment signs. In more ways than one could reach out to the world from ones first house and and affect others as beautiful. We've all seen people who have a charm and a way of attracting and still not be what anyone would consider per that environment, time, place as even remotely attractive, cute, beautiful. Venus on Asc or first can also attract lots of beauty, charm, and kind things to them with or without trying...if the rest of things bears that out astrologically. Sometime too is the mere spirit...the energy..and of the planetary influence that can take or have effect or be seen by the onlooker and taken in a certain way. You can sometimes block yourself from see alternatives when you are looking for something to be a certain way or not. Its not all a physical manifestation. Venus on Asc or first house has more to it than given credit on this tread thus far and certainly than I can credit in this post.

You gals/guys definitely need to grow up. Take the time look deeper ..its not just reading books in your local astrology store or section...nor does it mean you have to get a degree. I've hinted at some paths...it sjust to say that the view on this thread is nonetheless sorely pat copy/paste repeatitions from contemporary astrology and lack of deeper self examination. Get passed the veneer.
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Unread 10-06-2005, 10:32 PM
Aleph Aleph is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jufht
You gals/guys definitely need to grow up. Take the time look deeper ..its not just reading books in your local astrology store or section...nor does it mean you have to get a degree. I've hinted at some paths...it sjust to say that the view on this thread is nonetheless sorely pat copy/paste repeatitions from contemporary astrology and lack of deeper self examination. Get passed the veneer.
For a first post, that sure sounds condescending. This is a forum for people of all levels of astrology, some could be considered masters, others (like myself) newcomers. Thats why this forum is so useful, a place where people can ask questions and get different perspectives. The main problem I have with your argument is the dissing of the reading of astrology books. What is wrong with this? Is that not a good place to start? I have relied on books, and the internet for all of my study thus far, and definitely do not appreciate them being portrayed in a negative light. They (the books-- and the people that I'm sure you have insulted) have been immensely helpful to me so far.

Good day,
Aleph
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