Timing sexual contact?

Hello fellow forumers
I decided to post another chart only in the format mostly used in horary, just the typical tropical chart with Regio - although some people use another format

I would like to get your feedback on timing things. I've read a whole lot about it and it seems to me that the most used method is to analyse what kind of house or sign the significators are in, and the timing is seen by looking either at exactly when they do come into partile aspect or to count the degrees until that happens and those degrees will be the amount of time in days, weeks, months or years depending on the planet moving, the sign and house by position.

I'd like to try myself with this chart and please do tell me if you agree on this method or what method you use.

The chart shows that the significators are Saturn, Uranus and the Moon for the querent and the Sun and Jupiter (as it is inside 7th house and conjunct Dsc) for the other party. The querent wants to know when will they come into a sexual contact with each other.

Starting by traditional we see the Sun is moving out of contact with Saturn. The traditionalists would probably stop there and say there will be no contact.
The modernists would take Uranus as the modern ruler and we see that the Sun is approaching a trine to Uranus in about 7 degr. and it comes into exact conjunction to Venus just after the time the aspect to Uranus perfects. In modern view this is an indication of contact and the speed is fast as it is the Sun in 7th by house - but the sign slows it down a bit since it is mutable, right? This might be an indication of 6,5 weeks/days rather than months. If we just take the date when the Sun will arrive at 12-13 degr to make an exact trine to Uranus, as some use for timing events, that will be appr. 5th-6th Dec.

Now we analyse the corulers that are placed inside the 1st and the 7th. Those are the Moon for the querent and Jupiter for the other party. We see that they are making an aspect and together they make a T-square to Saturn. If we leave Saturn out of the picture and think like the modernists do ... then we see the Moon in separating opposition to Jupiter and moving on ... and then we see that Jupiter will retrograde and move towards the Moon from the 8th of Dec.

Would you use anything else to delineate this chart - or would you use less? Do you agree on the timing aspect using days or weeks for the Moon and Sun as they are moving fast in angular houses?

Some say you should also always look at Venus aspects to Sun in relationship/love charts - do you do that or does it complicate things too much?

Would appreciate your answers and dialogue in order to learn more

First of all, if you live in polar latitudes, you should use another house system...regiomontanus looks horrible in the chart. And it makes it imposible to place planets in a specific house

Second, don't use uranus, neptune or pluto as "co-signifiers". They don't rule houses, they don't rule signs, they don't even reflect the sun's light. They don't do much, some claim they can provide some minimal information, but at least in my opinion it is best to ignore them (and specially don't use them as co-signifiers).

The timing is usually done considering the signs/houses the planets are in:

- Fixed signs represent longer periods of time, cardinal shorter, mutable medium (not sure exactly which one is shorter if cardinal or mutable)

- Depending on the house: angular less time (more power to act), succedent medium (less power to act but still good), cadent long time (almost no power to act).

- Degrees as you said well, show the unit of time (2 weeks, 4 months, etc).

By the way, is this an "affair"? Both sun and and saturn, in mutual reception with other planets, recently separated.

The next aspect is when the moon changes signs into piscis, and squares the sun, meaning they will probably break up.

Thanks for your input Dirius and tips.... so maybe better to use whole sign houses as I've always been more keen on doing anyway in these high latitudes.

True, like I said the traditionalists will probably only look to Sun and Saturn while the modernists will look at Uranus as well.
But most traditionalists and modernists would probably agree that Jupiter conjunct Dsc would be co-significator?

It's pretty good insights - the querent is indeed "attached" or in a relationship with another. The other party is not in a relationship.

Yes the Moon will indeed first square Mercury (ruler of 5th and 8th if we use whole sign houses) and then the Sun ... would you say squares are indicating breakup rather than contact that might be hard on both persons involved?

Arena said:

It's pretty good insights - the querent is indeed "attached" or in a relationship with another. The other party is not in a relationship.

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That he knows of, maybe he/she didn't tell the querent

Planets inside houses are not co-signifiers, they are "additions". They represent other things that are involved in the situation. As in, for example, kids, other lovers, money, etc.

A contact that is usually hard in relationships, would represent a disagreement or an argument. As in:

"ok this is the last time, I can't do this anymore, I feel guilty, you don't love me you just use me, etc." - pretty much anything we see in romantic movies.

To be honest I can't say it means a break up 100%, but the problem is that there are really NO receptions at all between the signifiers.

So if they don't have feelings for each other, and the encounter is hard or troubling for them (as squares usually are) and they end up having an argument, its highly possible they will break up.

If it turns out the quesited is also in a relationship, or envolved with someone else, that would make it even more likely.

PS: I'm not sure whole sign's is suitable for horary, because the house systems like placidus, regio, etc. represent the houses real time interaction with earth, which are more suitable with horary.

I've heard some people use some of the other systems not as popular as placidus or regiomontanus (like koch or campanus)--- I saw a guy in a forum using Morinus system. There is probably a topic about house system's for high latitudes, you should see. Almost any system can be good for horary, the thing is if you like it. Regiomontanus is the default choice because its the one used by william lily, not because its "best".

A contact that is usually hard in relationships, would represent a disagreement or an argument. As in:

"ok this is the last time, I can't do this anymore, I feel guilty, you don't love me you just use me, etc." - pretty much anything we see in romantic movies.

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Well the matter of fact is that they have not been together, they've only been friends for some time. They have not acted out any desires. So they wouldn't really break up like that

I would guess that this chart using only traditional rulers means that they will not act on their desires at all - so no contact.

Using the modern rulers the contact would happen in 6 days or weeks (I just don't want to rule out modern rulers yet as I've not got enough experience reading into charts to know if they are indeed of value or not).

I'm not sure what the Moon is telling in this chart.

I am trying to learn about timing... so I will follow this story to see what happens.

hey Arena

you are not asking from North Pole, are you? if you see Santa, ask him not to forget to drop me off my US Army issued humvee at my parking space and a brand new unused DB605 engine! thanks!

i am not getting a yes here btw

sun and saturn do not meet
i have great doubts aqbout merc being translation of light because merc jumped a sign.. i was askgn this on another forum if it is TOL
also msged another astrologer asking the same thing..

will let you know if it is a functional TOL, if it is then it is a yes

Thank you both for your help.

Yes tikana, I'm asking from the North pole, Santa is my next door neighbour, so I'll give him the message from you

If I take the traditional view on trying my best to read into this horary as you both seem to be using - then it seems to be a no, and even seems like this guy calls "a rejection"
http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/11/horary-technique-3-rejection/

Why do I say that - well I just wonder if the querent will end up rejecting her own desires because Saturn is in Moon's sign of fall?

Mercury is also in it's sign of fall and comes between Saturn and the Sun.
Maybe it is the querent's partner or a communication issue? don't know. Or indeed that Mercury translates from Saturn to the Sun? As in this explanation here: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/translation.html

If I go through this article about translation of light it seems that it only is reliable if the Moon does not aspect another planet in between the signifiers - so in this case it should be a no because Mercury comes in between...right?
http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/11/horary-technique-4-translation-of-light/

Remember though, those significators must be the last and next aspect the translating planet makes, if there is a different planet in the way, the translation will not be successful.

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Lilly’s definition of translation seems to suggest he only considers the first step (the translating planet being received by the planet it is separating from) to be essential in the process

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By the quote above it does seem that the Moon would maybe be able to transfer light as it is in Saturn's own sign.

The chart seems to have a bit of a mixed message.

It is indeed interesting to compare this horary chart to the first horary chart made for this question shown here:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=585419&postcount=1

It has the same significators, Sun and Saturn by traditional view.... but in that chart they will perfect their conjunction in 3° - but they also show other planets in conjunction, but in that chart there is no planet in between them.

Interesting also to note in that chart that the Sun is in it's sign of fall while that is actually Saturn's sign of exaltation. Moon is separating it's aspect to Saturn which is placed in Moon's sign of fall and is translating light from Saturn to Venus and then to the ASC. The dignities of Sun, Moon and Saturn in that chart suggest difficulties although the significators do connect by conjunction. That is probably because of their attachment to other relationships or difficulties with their emotions&desires.

A bit about the Moon which is how the matter will evolve ... and learning about translation of light of the Moon's aspect... we see in that first chart that the Moon has just been aspecting Jupiter and translates light from J to the Sun, then over to Saturn and is separating it's aspect from both of them to transfer light from Saturn to Venus and then to ASC... is that an indication of how a matter evolves?

I just wanted to revisit the first chart casted about the question to see if there are similarities or if the question would receive a different answer.

Arena said:

It is indeed interesting to compare this horary chart to the first horary chart made for this question shown here:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=585419&postcount=1

It has the same significators, Sun and Saturn by traditional view.... but in that chart they will perfect their conjunction in 3° - but they also show other planets in conjunction, but in that chart there is no planet in between them.

Interesting also to note in that chart that the Sun is in it's sign of fall while that is actually Saturn's sign of exaltation. Moon is separating it's aspect to Saturn which is placed in Moon's sign of fall and is translating light from Saturn to Venus and then to the ASC. The dignities of Sun, Moon and Saturn in that chart suggest difficulties although the significators do connect by conjunction. That is probably because of their attachment to other relationships or difficulties with their emotions&desires.

A bit about the Moon which is how the matter will evolve ... and learning about translation of light of the Moon's aspect... we see in that first chart that the Moon has just been aspecting Jupiter and translates light from J to the Sun, then over to Saturn and is separating it's aspect from both of them to transfer light from Saturn to Venus and then to ASC... is that an indication of how a matter evolves?

I just wanted to revisit the first chart casted about the question to see if there are similarities or if the question would receive a different answer.

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But the chart from that post, isn't like from years ago?

I think you are forcing yourself into finding an aspect with the translation of light thing, rather than accepting that the chances of them meeting are very low.

No not really trying to do anything other than understanding horary charts more than I do already.

I just wanted to compare what the first horary chart casted had to tell about the question and then what the new chart has to tell and find out if it is a similar story.

If there is not a chance for those two to come into any closer contact than what they have now as friends, they will probably just decide to still be friends and not do anything more even though there is a desire...

I just want to understand fully what a horary chart tells when asked this kind of question and learn more about how to delineate them ...what I will have in a couple of months is two different charts telling a different story and then I can compare them to see which one turned out to be more accurate.

Arena said:

Thank you both for your help.

Yes tikana, I'm asking from the North pole, Santa is my next door neighbour, so I'll give him the message from you

If I take the traditional view on trying my best to read into this horary as you both seem to be using - then it seems to be a no, and even seems like this guy calls "a rejection"
http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/11/horary-technique-3-rejection/

Why do I say that - well I just wonder if the querent will end up rejecting her own desires because Saturn is in Moon's sign of fall?

Mercury is also in it's sign of fall and comes between Saturn and the Sun.
Maybe it is the querent's partner or a communication issue? don't know. Or indeed that Mercury translates from Saturn to the Sun? As in this explanation here: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/translation.html

If I go through this article about translation of light it seems that it only is reliable if the Moon does not aspect another planet in between the signifiers - so in this case it should be a no because Mercury comes in between...right?
http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/11/horary-technique-4-translation-of-light/

By the quote above it does seem that the Moon would maybe be able to transfer light as it is in Saturn's own sign.

The chart seems to have a bit of a mixed message.

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wait.. usually moon becomes TOL but here we have merc because saturn is slow and sun is faster but mercury is the fastest.

PM me where are you? i love those post Arctic circle charts.. i dont get to play around with those!

send me the data via pm i gotta see this chart up close!

awww i am getting DB 605 for xmas! lol wishful thinking

By the way here is an interesting article about the different house systems and polar regions:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/polar2.html

You can test other methods for house divition, in the article you'll find some that work well with charts done in polar regions. That might help a bit.

Thanks Dirius
I have had a lot of confusion about house systems to use and I did indeed read into some articles a long time ago about exactly what you are describing, that not all systems are going to work in high latitudes. Thanks for the link

Just wanted to provide another link that is insightful about horary and timing.
http://www.moonvalleyastrologer.com/horary-astrology/

Time Factor

The amount of time involved can be found by counting the number of degrees between Significators for an aspect to be exact. Time is measured in days, weeks, months, years or unknown according to the quality of the sign the Signifcator of the querent is in, and its house occupancy. In a cardinal sign and angular house, time is in days; in a cardinal sign and succedent house, time is in weeks; in a cardinal sign and cadent house, time is in months. If the Significator is in a fixed sign and angular house, time is in months; in a fixed sign and succedent house, time is in years; in a fixed sign and cadent house, time is unknown. If the Signifcator is in a mutable sign and angular house, time is in weeks; in a mutable sign and succedent house, time is in months; in a mutable sign and cadent house, time is in years.

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All of the articles I read about timing do agree it seems that there needs to be a notion of contact between the significators in order to proceed to measure the timing. Or there must be indication of possibility of translation of light or collection of light - like tikana has suggested above. It indicates something that needs to be done (symbolic of the planet that does the TOL), or someone (a third party) that is needed to resolve or get closer to the desired outcome.

It is indeed so interesting to read about horary, even though it can be a bit complicated to delineate when charts are not just very straight forward.

Hello again
I did send you pm tikana - but am not sure you received the latter ones?

Did you get any answer from you advisor about TOL?
Did you look into the two charts any closer?

hey sorry been swamped in school

so i got 1 yes 1 no for TOL

i am thinking it is a TOL but then i have no idea

i am hoping it is

Yes it does seem to be a possible TOL according to the literature I've read.

But what would you say about timing if we assume it is indeed a functional TOL? And do you think Mercury is a symbolism for communication in this instance? So it is just a question of communicating the desires?

That is my first thought of how Mercury plays a role here - because the actual desires have not been communicated yet.

Wooobs Dirius and tikana... just realized something when looking into this thread here:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=590986#post590986

That it is the same kind of situation - I should be looking at Mercury as the sexual interest in this case inside this thread, the Sun is the querents husband. Mercury, Saturn and Venus are all in combustion of the Sun - the husband is actually making everyone too anxious to actually act out the sexual desires of these two people. Mercury has come in between the husband and the wife - very descriptive indeed.

The Moon is going to make a square to Saturn before leaving the sign and then a square to Mercury.

Well for me anyway, this is one of those AHA moments we all know about having in discovering astrology

Looking back into this case and then also into the first chart casted here
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=585419&postcount=1

I see now that this chart is very representative indeed. Sun is in it's sign of fall - the querent does not feel too good about this, she is "married" and her husband is Saturn (at their home in the 4th house).
The sexual interest outside the marriage is the 5th house - so it is either Mars inside the 5th house, conjunct Pluto and can also be indicated by Jupiter ruling the 5th sign. So Jupiter and Mars are the rulers of this sexual desire/interest... but in this chart the husband seems to "win" since his wife, the Sun is moving into a conjunction with him.... and Saturn is moving into conjunction with POF and Venus?

BUT/OR since we see Jupiter in the 12th, hidden/secret and the Moon moving out of conjunction with him and about to square Venus and conjunct the ASC - might actually indicate a translation of light from Jupiter to Venus to the ASC? Interesting to see that Venus, POF and Saturn are all inside Mars' sign (I know that this person does have respect for the womans' husband and family and might actually avoid contact with her because of it). Seems like she could actually love both of them.

Look at the similarities between the two charts casted about this issue, the same rulers and then the 5th house connected to the 8th as well...and the 12th house plays a part in both I think. Secret desires.

Arena said:

Well for me anyway, this is one of those AHA moments we all know about having in discovering astrology

Looking back into this case and then also into the first chart casted here
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=585419&postcount=1

I see now that this chart is very representative indeed. Sun is in it's sign of fall - the querent does not feel too good about this, she is "married" and her husband is Saturn (at their home in the 4th house).
The sexual interest outside the marriage is the 5th house - so it is either Mars inside the 5th house, conjunct Pluto and can also be indicated by Jupiter ruling the 5th sign. So Jupiter and Mars are the rulers of this sexual desire/interest... but in this chart the husband seems to "win" since his wife, the Sun is moving into a conjunction with him.... and Saturn is moving into conjunction with POF and Venus?

BUT/OR since we see Jupiter in the 12th, hidden/secret and the Moon moving out of conjunction with him and about to square Venus and conjunct the ASC - might actually indicate a translation of light from Jupiter to Venus to the ASC? Interesting to see that Venus, POF and Saturn are all inside Mars' sign (I know that this person does have respect for the womans' husband and family and might actually avoid contact with her because of it). Seems like she could actually love both of them.

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I see it another way (mind me):

While libra is the sun's fall, it is also Saturn's exaltation . The querent or 1st house person is exalting and infatuated with saturn.

Saturn on the other hand, has no reception towards the sun....but has reception towards mars, who rules the 5th. He is only interested in having sex with her.