'old souls'

Do you believe there is any credence in the idea that the latter sun signs have qualities about them which point to those born under them to be 'older' than those born under the earlier ones of the zodiac?

My Scorpio son has been 'wiser' by far than his Taurean sister (and indeed than his Taurean mother in many ways) since he was a toddler....

i disagree with shining ray. no offense buddy. but i think that "souls" come into incarnation at many dfferent "ages." this can sometimes be expressed by sun sign like sally d said but also through many aspects in a natal chart. the more aspects, the more to learn/evolve. the older the soul the more there is to learn.

just my opinion. not really based on reading any empirical research.

Interesting discussion.. I myself like Jeffery Greens idea of Pluto and it's position and aspect it makes in the chart to indicate the inkling of an old soul..

But then again for me personally I think we all are old souls..I believe in reincarnation and I do believe that some seem older than others because a particular lesson is winding down that many of their lives they have lived have helped them be who they came in this go around.. if that makes sense..

And others don't seem as old because they enter this time with a whole new lesson to start on.. but that is nothing astrological there that is my own personal opinion..

For reicarnation though I do look to the tail of the dragon.. it's ruler..the aspects to it and the ruler.. and the house position.. also like to use Daniel Giamarios ideas of Shamanic Astrology and use the position and sign of the south node and moon to indicate past life lessons. So using his ideas my south node is in the 12th house.. natural house of pisces.. my moon is pices so I came before from doing the pisces job in the pisces tribe.. to now in this world (north node in 6th and libra rising) doing the Virgo job in the Libra tribe oooh the lucky men in my life to be bombarded with my obersvations of patterns and when patterns stop .. " But dear everyday you brush your teeth at 9 am.. why today did you brush it at 10 am"... as you can see I'm probably a real joy

I don't think it is possibly to astrologically validate any of our opinions--at least with the current level of research into past lives--yet it has always been my personal believe that reincarnation is a cyclical event, and a soul journeys into this physical plane of existence many times in many different forms bearing many different astrological signatures that are appropriate to whatever lessons the soul intends to learn in a particular lifetime.

I do not believe it is fair to label an Aries or Taurus Sun individual as a young soul just because the soul has chosen to undertake and develop the characteristics of one of the "earlier" signs in the zodiac; the zodiac is a circle, and a circle by definition has no end nor beginning. I believe that an individual has the memories of the previous sign buried within his or her subconscious; therefore, an Aries individual has just completed a critical cycle and is in the processing of discarding an old personality and building a new one.

I do not believe it is possible to tell the age of a soul based on a natal chart alone, yet knowing the experience of a soul may give an astrologer a clue as to how such an individual will use the energies available to him or her.

If any of you are interested in esoteric astrology, Alice A. Baile expressed an interesting idea on her site about old souls traveling "backwards" through the zodiacal wheel. Unfortunately, I have not read the source I am referring to in a while, yet I am pretty sure there's an article featured somewhere on the Esoteric Astrology website that describes this idea if anyone is interested in pursuing it further.

Again, these are just my personal thoughts--feel free to accept or reject.

Arian Maverick

I really liked what you both added there Shining and Arian especially Arian the circle having no beginning and no end.. very nice.

sallyd said:

Do you believe there is any credence in the idea that the latter sun signs have qualities about them which point to those born under them to be 'older' than those born under the earlier ones of the zodiac?

Click to expand...

Think about it. If you assume that each sign is wiser than the one before it, and you believe we live many lives, what happens when you get to Pisces?

Do you graduate?

Or do you go around the wheel again?

I'm not saying that we do this, merely pointing out the obvious flaw in logic?

If we go by sun sign, then Arian Maverick has a very young soul, mine is much older because I'm Libra Sun, and Silent Ray trumps everyone with her Pisces Sun.

I have not yet found anything in charts that shows how "evolved" people are. If anyone comes up with something that actually works, I'll be the first to use it and jump on the bandwagon!

G.

I just thought of another point that I do not believe has yet been considered: What if the soul is beyond time and space? How would you measure the "age" of a soul--by the number of incarnations it has had on this planet? What if the soul has had many sojourns on other planes of existence other than our own, perhaps on so-called higher planes of existence? Would you still refer to such a soul as a "young" soul?

Again, I don't mean to attack this theory; like gaer, I simply want to share some ideas. I may very well be a "young" soul, but I'm confident that this isn't my first lifetime here. I suppose this presents another question; if you measure a soul's age by the number of incarnations it has had on this planet, at what point would a "young" soul become an "old" soul?

Arian Maverick

P.S. There was a chart somewhere on the main site that lists approximate years for each degree of the zodiac, and a planet placed at a specific degree is supposed to indicate the nature of a past life that occurred during this time. I was originally surprised to see that the chart began with Pisces; the latter degrees of this sign correlated with more recent years within the last century, while the first degree of Aries corresponded with an unfathomable date thousands of years before the common era. Since my natal Moon is in early Aries and I also have a conjunction of planets in the middle of this sign, I entertained the thought that I had spent a significant portion of my development as a caveman. I was not offended by this; I was quite pleased and amused to have the opportunity to use this smiley :46:

I might be considered an old soul by these standards, but I don't believe "old" in this sense indicates advanced spiritual development--at least, I doubt our human and pre-human ancestors had much time to focus upon spiritual development when their entire existence was focused upon physical survival.

Therefore, I do not believe that the earliest date of incarnation is necessarily indicative of the "age" of a soul.

What if a soul incarnated during this time but chose not to return to this planet for thousands upon thousands of years? Has such a soul amassed enough experience on the physical plane to be thought of as an old soul?

Here's yet another possibility: what if a soul has reincarnated hundreds of times to master a specific lesson? Every soul advances in its own "time," and I do not believe it is somehow better to get through the process as quickly as possible, yet the image of a soul repeating lessons brings forth the image of a child repeating a certain grade level in school, which is not usually indicative of a child (soul) possessing advanced learning and understanding. However, it has been said that experience is the best teacher, so I suppose such souls would not necessarily be "behind" because there is no comparison other than one's own experience. Yet what if a soul is able to learn its lessons in relatively few incarnations; would such a soul be considered to be a "young" soul?

Too many questions, not enough answers...

Arian Maverick said:

Again, I don't mean to attack this theory; like gaer, I simply want to share some ideas.

Click to expand...

Yup, yup!!!

I think there might be a way we can get an idea of someone who is very wise. I'm trying to avoid "spiritually advanced", though that's what I really think of.

Sometimes you see a chart that looks like a train-wreck. You see aspects and planets in houses that look impossible, then you find out that chart belongs to someone who not only has been very successful in life and very well liked but who apparently has been happy too.

So I do think there is something to the idea that those who are more advanced, however we define this, face challeges that would crush most people and not only come out on top but also seem to do it with smiles on their faces.

Gaer

VERY good point.. because to determine the age of a soul we are then having to say the soul can be measured by space and time ect.. and realllllly how do we define a soul..

Here is the webster's dictionary version of defining a soul..

–noun

1.the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.

2.the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul.

3.the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him.

4.the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments.

Now many of these things talk of emotion, spirituality, and something disimbodied from the actual physical body..

Scientifically to measure something we need to define it.. to give it perimeters to then know how to correctly measure it .. and really I think it's beyond something we can measure so the concept of it having a linear age is probably a mute point at best.. very good ideas there Arian..

So then do we just view a soul as something that cannot be measured? I have felt personally that physics proves there is some kind of life after death.. because energy cannot be destroyed.. only created.. or transformed.. I have often wondered if what people experience as a "heaven" or a "hell" is really the energy they put out in the world.. then when they die they transform that energy with them as the soul prepares itself for another reincarnation.. there maybe a temporary senstation of experiencing a heaven or hell but really it's about energy not a place if that makes sense..

So a simple gesture of kindness.. a smile to a stranger could transform with you and have that postive energy move your soul along on it's path.. but again there cannot be positive without negative so even the negative energy has it's place in moving a soul along in it's experience.. in that case how can you really measure its evolution?

Continuous movement.. fluidity.. not stagnating and crystalizing in one place could I think be a good definition of evolving..so a soul may come into this world to experience being a killer.. being a "monster" in societies eyes.. and another a saint.. a "mother Theresa" as it were but neither really say a soul is more evolved then the other but you could say each soul is continuously moving.. which then evolution.. Jet Li has some great philosphy with his sprirituality.. and he talks about the real point in buddhism is to get to a point to see there is no right or wrong.. no black and white.. no ying and yang.. but everything is neutral

and umm I miss the eggs

I agree with just about all that is said here, especially :-

1. The circle theory (although I see it more as a spiral with the soul moving upward as it completes each revolution).

2. The idea that old souls are evidenced not by what is in a chart but rather by how it is handled/coped with.

3. Astrology cannot determine/indicate the age of a soul.

4. "Home is not where you live but where they understand you."

I can't consider the more along the wheel the sun sign the more evolved the soul.

I know i'm an old soul. This is my last life unless l chose to come back and my friends see me as predominantly wise and old for my years, yet l have Taurus sun and Aries moon.

I think the signs are more to do with lessons. My lessons in life definitely correlate to my sun/moon signs...
plus

"l hate queues and being labeled" LOL

Hi SallyD,

Didn't have time to read all the great posts here, so, apologies if I'm repeating something someone else has already brought forward...in scanning briefly I did see someone pointing out that the Soul's existence is free of time and space, so that's partially my angle... ;->

My sense of things is that each sign has traits and expressions that are more likely to be adopted by a "younger soul," as well as "older soul" level expressions...and I believe that *soul age* is determined entirely *experientially,* by how much life experience has ripened into *wisdom* and garnered under one's belt, so to speak. And I believe each soul, with guidance from spiritual teachers and guides, chooses a mosaic or makeup of astrological qualities and energies for what they will provide in the way of support for that particular lifetime's soulgrowth curriculum. And this is done, yes, entirely outside the context of Earthlife time and space, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the chronologies or "order" the signs, as we understand them, appear in...

For instance... Say we have a younger-soul Aries, with a Scorpio Moon. At this soul age level of expression, Aries energy might correspond with everything we've heard about Aries'...oh, less-conscious qualities, we might say. Very high-strung and fiery, impetuous, starts many things but doesn't follow through, doesn't think much before acting; all those things. And a younger soul living a Scorpio Moon will no doubt have quite a time with its intensity of emotional pitch, may have some pretty compulsive relationship experiences involving possessiveness and other issues possibly sourced from childhood experiences with or perceptions of Mom... Overall, there will be a distinct quality of Newness to navigating the challenges each sign's energies offer.

And then, to contrast... An older soul with these same placements might express them very differently. I have known older-soul Arians who bear very little resemblance at all to the classic definition. Not at all impatient, impulsive or fiery in any out-of-balance sense; rather, they have the Martian/Arien drive to *push through something carrying a torch," so to speak, initiate something that requires huge energy of momentum...and they also have *very strong senses of Self* and no issues whatsoever about taking up space in the world. ;-> And then a Scorpio Moon lived by an older soul...well, it can often still be challenging, because older-soul Scorpio soulgrowth curricula and lessoning tends to turn deeply inward... From my observation, Pluto and Scorpio 's "control vs. power" theme shifts to internal realms from more-external ones dealt with as a younger soul; we learn we cannot (and really shouldn't *want* to) control the behaviors and choices of others...especially as they pertain to ourselves...lol...and we shift into discerning the difference between inappropriate *controls* we keep on ourselves, to learning *true empowerment*...

Another illustration using Taurean energy... A younger soul might express the more challenging issues Taurus energy carries; a tendency to dwell within comfort zones and resistance to change and growth...a sense of fixity or stubbornness in general...fierce hanging-on to material contexts of life for a feeling of security... And the older-soul expression of Taurus can be far more gentle, if the soul finds no need of or has already dealt with its "lesser" resonances in other ways; these folks can be harbingers of Beauty, all around, via Venus' rulership...often artistic talent of all sorts...considered the "rock" of the family or group of friends...very emotionally Solid...

So...in other words...well, it's like that "mosaic" image; we pick and choose *all* our planetary placements and aspects and house divisions to comprise a personal-psyche cauldron of soulgrowth that, from outside time and space and with lots of help, we see will catalyze our best soulgrowth reaches...

Hope this helps!

Hello everyone
Just a little comment about an old souls.
If we consider HH Dalai Lama as an 'old soul' (as we all know he is the same incarnated soul), here is what I found:
14 Dalai Lama was born 6 July 1935
13 DL -12 feb. 1876
12 DL- 26 Jan. 1857
11 DL-1 Nov.1838
So conclusion that is coming by itself is that being an old soul has nothing to do with the sign.
That is what I think
tetka

perhaps they have just gotten further in the same time as others didn't get very far?
I was just looking at HHDL's chart and it's very interesting.He's considered to be at least a Bodisattva,one who is enlightened but continues to be reborn(in complete control of where and when,no karma anymore) to help others become enlightened and become Bodhisattvas.His chart shows he's very 'KIND' and a leader.He also very modern.I havent looked at the aspects yet.

Hi Sally,

This indeed is a very interesting topic for discussion, but also one presumably with no straightforward answer.

I don't know whether I will be making any sense whatsoever with what will soon follow on this page, but the cardinal question to this topic remains unanswered for me too: what parameters can you use to measure the age of the soul, if you can do that at all!!!

However, firstly, since I've done some reading on the very intriguing topic of 'Soul Astrology' myself, and secondly, as I wanted to and still might start a thread on: what makes some cling on to the past and be exceedingly nostalgic much more than others, which somewhat tangents the topic of this post, I will gladly share my reflections here with all.

As Hinduism and Buddhism (the latter being an offshoot of the former), in my opinion, very aptly say the soul is both formless and ageless in terms of earth incarnations, which are based on space and time. Soul is neither born, and so nor does it die. I guess, you can assume it be like energy, which, according to the laws of physics can neither be created nor destroyed, but only converted from one form to another. Similarly, as Hinduism very rightly puts it, soul can be understood to operate through the body, which is its vehicle for that 'phase of time' on earth until its release through 'death', when it discards that body. The soul, however, unlike the human body is not bound by those limitations of time, place and other intrinsic and extrinsic factors; which undergoes the cycle of aging and enfeeblement, so there is no straightforward linear manner to measure the soul within the bounds of time and space. It is much beyond or above these boundaries. I reckon that is why we connect spirituality - which is just as formless and ageless with soul.

Leaving the answer to the above is perhaps anything but satisfying in connection with your question, and so I will have a go at answering it more in terms of astrology now

In my opinion, no one sign alone can even come close to determining the 'oldness' of the soul. However, some factors which I have read to be worth considering in this connection are the lunar nodes, their placement and their connection to other planets, esp. the higher octave planets: Saturn, Neptune and Pluto as well as to the Moon and Sun. Also, if the placement of the nodes is close to the IC (roots and origin), it bears more significance. Again, I guess, as the 12H is linked to spirituality, the placement of nodes there might also bear more weightage in this connection.

Before I had fully embarked on my very own astrological mission of delving into the realms of astrology myself, I had a no. of astrologers point out to me, even today this very intriguing thing for me, that I am (supossedly) a very 'old' soul, and since this perfectly tangents your question , I would like to share some of the reasons I was given in relation to my chart:
(a) n-Node's placement in the water-sign of Scorpio (Sco is ruled by Pluto- so there's the first connection to Pluto);
(b) n-Node in aspect to higher octave planets like Pluto (in sextile), Neptune (in tight conj);
(c) the placement of my nNode in the 4H next to the IC (IC in water-sign of Sco).
(d) some even pointed towards the placement of Chiron (the karmic healer) in nine (9th is the house of religion and philosophy) and its tight aspects to my Sun and Merc (sextile) - this is said to denote wisdom, which I've also read very often

Though, personally I do not fully understand why, but some astrologers say that if there are more planets in a chart in the 'higher' or last houses: 9,10,11,12 - it is a sign of a 'wiser' or 'older' soul, if you so like. Automatically, more planets in the lower or early houses: 1,2,3,4,5 would denote 'younger' souls.

Btw, just another thought that has just cropped up in my mind in connection more with one's link to the past - don't you consider the rx-planets there? Would that also have some bearing to the original question on this post as well?

aquarius7000

I don't think we will ever know the answer to this astrologically. In my overall character there are areas of life I seem wiser in than others. Some areas I am more naive, I am not sure if that makes me a young soul. Some parts of life I seem to quite easily tap into and understand instantly a lot of information. Although I would class myself as one of those souls who perpetually keeps going around like a hamster on a wheel and continuing to make the same mistakes all the time, and I just don't seem to learn. Honestly I think sometimes I need a major wake up call.

I found this on the net about different types of souls infant to wise etc. I am not sure about it. I will think on it some more, but I find it hard to believe that it can be categorized like this. But I will read all the descriptions and classify my soul level from this list. I am going to have to really think deeply on this one . Although...I read once that if you call yourself a wise old soul your probably not one. As a wise evolved soul is more humble. Aghhh I don't know what to believe anymore...

THE INFANT SOUL

INFANT SOULS choose lessons of physical survival. They live in simple situations that include intense experiences - famine, plagues, floods, wars, oppression, etc. They don't know the difference between right and wrong, though they can be taught to be decent human beings. They don't usually seek higher education and often don't seek employment, as such. Infant souls don't question authority and willingly adopt the religion of their parents as is.

THE BABY SOUL

BABY SOULS display less fear than infant souls and are more
sophisticated. But they tend to over apply rules. Black is black as far as they're concerned. Their strong early beliefs remain fixed in their minds, regardless of lack of their wisdom or tolerance. Baby souls love to become big fish in their little puddles...but hate being opposed. Because of this they may spend much time in litigation. Baby souls don't spend time navel-gazing into their own lives. They're often "good students" that learn "proper subjects," and are attracted to
fundamentalist religions.

THE YOUNG SOUL

YOUNG SOULS are the "Donald Trumps" of the world...the movers and shakers. They usually set the bar too high for themselves. Achievement is paramount. They chase after what they believe will bring success without ever stopping to think why - because they're so limited in their perception. They fear death and must have all the toys, experiences, fame and money they can possibly accumulate before they die. They are designers of civilization. Young souls usually seek higher education and graduate-level degrees. Their views of orthodoxy are at one end of the spectrum or the other. Monks and nuns are at one end and a belief in total sexual freedom, the other. They have difficulty with insight into other people's behavior.

THE MATURE SOUL

MATURE SOULS challenge the young soul's desire to "have it all." It is a hard cycle that demands seeking answers to life's tough questions. They are attracted to gentler faiths, such as Quaker, Unitarian, or Buddhist. Mature souls are not as open to the occult as old souls. They look for and question the motivation for all of life's actions. They often continue with inappropriate relationships - perhaps believing that through self-sacrifice, or tough lessons they will ultimately prevail. Often they can't shake their sense of duty. Mature souls suffer from stress related illness that sometimes results in schizophrenia, psychosis and a higher suicide rate than other souls. [Cayce emphasized the role that `stress' plays in not only physical illnesses but also mental illnesses; he believed it was `stress' that wrecked havoc on the brain chemistry/balance]. But they're smart enough to seek professional help without urging. Mature souls often make huge contributions to knowledge - particularly philosophical and scientific. But altogether they don't necessarily have the drive for fame, many still achieve it. They're emotionally high maintenance.

THE OLD SOUL

OLD SOULS live and let live. They seek the route of least
resistance...they're individualistic and usually easy going. They have an inner knowing of the waste of time in pursuing fame and fortune and therefore create the appearance of being "laid back." Old souls are highly competent - even in roles they don't particularly like. They tend to choose work that is pleasant and undemanding, leaving them free to pursue their desired goals easily...unless the job adds to the spiritual search. They may or may not seek higher education... but definitely will seek it if they sense it's needed for their chosen path. Old souls create confidence in animals. And their choice of medical care tends to be alternative and holistic. Old souls are here to teach others their spiritual understandings. Their philosophies and writings are simple and easy to read. Old souls religion is far reaching and has no
label. A grove of trees is a sacred place to them. They seldom cling to dogma and prefer personal spiritual practices. However, old souls are wise enough to be discreet in their religious practices and know how to pass in public undetected. They focus on searching for the spiritual truth and have a finer sense of knowing what is true than any other souls level. Old souls all over the world share the experience of emptiness and a longing for that feeling of home.

No I can't pick one, I seem to have some traits in a few of the souls. From reading it I don't think I am the infant soul, I know the difference between right and wrong. I seek learning as my source of life. And I am a pain in the butt for questioning authority. I won't go through all the stages but it was interesting to look at and examine where I am right now in life and how I have progressed or not in some areas.

Food for thought .

I'm sure a few Saturn aspects can do the trick.

I believe, through observing charts / research that Saturn-pluto-chiron & the NODES have much to do with our soul "level" as well as ast live issues:

True, we learn through our experiences. Still, soesn't KARMA put us in places where we would not have been by choice so we are then FORCED to go through these various tests in life - it is how we CHOOSE to handle these situations that determines our soul level-

Im only 27 but I feel Im an old soul- its not that people tell me this, I knwo myself well enough- I always feel more connected to OLDER people yet I have also learned that AGE has nothing to do with maturity level & certainly not where your soul has been- I have taught people twice my age things about life they were totally clueless about- so if thats all I leave the world, so be it.

Im somewhere b/t the MATURE & OLD souls...I always had a lonely feeling in the pit of my stomach, even with friends & family around. Only when I connect with a kindred spirit - which has been rare, then I feel whole again.

We"ll see how life pans out- still got ahile to go;-)