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Degree Symbols Discuss your experiences with all symbol systems based on astrological degrees in the chart (i.e., Sabian Symbols, Kozminsky Symbols, etc.): the symbols for the transiting Sun and Moon and the events of your life, the symbols of your natal chart...


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Unread 05-16-2011, 11:53 AM
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Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

[This is the revised and edited text...thank you.] ptv

Ive never really got a handle on the meaning of Lilith in Astrology myself. By that I mean I don't state anything about it conclusively...but in this craft* that's more the rule than the exception. *[aspiring to be recognized as a science...which it will be someday.]

I never paid any attention to Lilith until 1998 or 99. It came up alot in the composite and synastry charts I was drawing up between Miss X and myself. and for a few other people in synastry and/or composite charts of their companionships.
All I had was an assumption, a conjecture at best, which had developed from what I could find written about the subject, that Lilith was a person, although, more than likely a 'creature', that had become identified with, the dark side of the feminine that one, especially a man, does not want to encourage...much less have to encounter...
At this point in this post, I'm now going to bring up a couple of the readings of Edgar Cayce here...for those of you that don't believe in Cayces' validity, his proclivities or any truth to his readings ...pass this by please...

...and to those who feel otherwise, bear with patience through this following account [Legend,{or myth} if you'd prefer] because it will become clear why I had to, give this info/explanation, when I explain how the Sabians are to be interpreted through the Astrological Lilith that is found on ones birth chart.

Cayce said that there were 5 "Adams", one for each of the 5 races. The Adam of the Hebrew Bible is that first existing being of the 'Red Race' as most all of, what are the, oldest books of the Bible originated in and came from Atalantis to Egypt with the migration of Atlantean survivors that came to Egypt for refuge and a new start, These Atlanteans, that migrated to Egypt, brought along with them their own knowledge and their own indigenous rites of their particular spiritual path, and also knowledge and applications of other 'sciences'. Once they had been accepted by and had settled in Egypt, it wasn't long before they introduced and established the spiritual belief and it's various rites, that was known in those ancient times as the Aton religion, which by all the accounts I've heard about concerning the Lost Continent, was a true, and very refined understanding of Spiritual laws, how to work with them for the most effective affects in the most beneficial manner, for the newly created living species known as 'Mankind' [according to Cayce about a quarter of a million years ago] and how to utilize them in material applications, [Sigmund Freud had deduced and conclusively stated that what we know in the world today as Judaism or Hebrewism is in fact those same belief[s], tenets, rites and practices that had been known, and practiced, as a religion of great antiquity that Freud believed had originated in ancient Egypt and had been known by a different name as that of, and called, the Aton. Although if Edgar Cayces information on the origin and age of the Aton, its beliefs, practices and knowledge is correct, [as I assume it is correct and a 'given' in that, all previous observations of, any info given by Edgar Cayce in a 'Reading', as to any event[s], knowledge, belief, custom, practice, ritual, rite, person, or Cayces accounting of Where, How or Why, to anything of the past to be a 'given', as because that the info is from Edgar Cayce and I've never seen or heard of Cayce being proven wrong on any historical accounting] and before that of Egypt, as the same belief, albeit by a slightly different name or pronunciation of the same name as in Egypt...i.e. the Aton.
But it evolved, or was re-explained or re-invented during the long Exodus, [according to Freud there were no Israelites, Hebrews or Jews as they are presently known and recognized as such, and that the Exodus really only consisted of the Priests of the Aton faith of Egypt of which the man known as Moses was the High Priest of, and the Levites, as they are called in the Bible, in all truthfulness, but only those lesser Priests of the Aton. [and I would assume that their immediate families were, or would have been included also.] ...According to Freud, the 'Exodus' probably did last as long in time as has been stated to have been, and as is currently believed to be historically factual by most Biblical scholars. As Freud stated in his book, "Moses and Monotheism" [available in just about every college book store, public library etc. and...it's not too long a work...really, almost more of a 'treatise' in length.] Moses and the Priests wandered the deserts for all those years looking for friendly, spiritually aware, intelligent and civilized, peoples. ...especially groups of people to transfer the knowledge that is known to me, and to us presently, as that given by Moses and the Levites, as Judaism.

The soul of the man known to be and called Adam, in the Book of Genesis of the Hebrew Bible, was/is known as Amilius. Each and every soul has an eternal, true name that was given to it in the beginning. The great Swamis', yogis and gurus and of the Orient know this...as they have always known...due to the revered, respected, sacred, honored and practiced Guruampara..the teaching, the bestowing, the direct transmission of sacred knowledges and truths from one person to another in only oral fashion. Swami to Guru to Guru to Yogi. Never kept in written form, but retained intact, inviolate and unchanged in image, form, or words in the mind and memories of those who are of the most accomplished at achieving and maintaining a singular unity, identification, concentration and absorption ability of inviolate, unalterable, changeless integrity.
According to Cayce, before the creation of the first 5 Men, the 5 Adams of the 5 different races, souls were observing the activity of the 'animals/beasts' that roamed the Earth, and that, these 'animals' although being conscious living, animate and sensing creatures, they were created soul less and thus were nothing more and were as one and the same as... in whole with and yet also a part of... the inanimate physical universe..[r.e. the flora, the fauna, the very elements and form of the planet itself. i.e. all of Gods creation, and as much a part of the physical universe as any other 'matter' has 'spirit' shared among them.] and these souls, not incarnate in any physical form, eventually became tempted to take a physical form of their own creation[s] [which they had the ability to do...and all of us do have the ability to still do...alas though, it's a latent and or forgotten ability for nearly all, if not entirely all, of humankind at the present] as they became desiring to experience the sex act, copulation, etc....as it was that, which so fascinated, intrigued and tempted those souls .
Thus eventually these souls realizing their ability to do so did create for themselves, physical living forms. These numerous and individual souls, of consciousness and thought were, in a very short while, creating all types and sorts of various looking and functioning beings from images conceived from their thoughts and gestated in their own minds. After some period of time in taking possession of these entities/beasts/living forms of there own creative manifestation, there soon was all kind of different forms, too numerous to count and what thus resulted was a menagrie of all sorts of imaginable and unimaginable monstrosities. According to Cayce some of these aberrations were the very same described 'minotuars, 'centuars' and other such creatures that, we ourselves know in our present times as creatures of myths of a time that is so distantly far back in the past...that presently humankind can't recall where or when we saw them, yet we can't seem to forget the subconscious memory of them...because... they indeed, most certainly did exist at one time.

Yes folks; Bestiality. I am talking about multiple. random, wanton 'bestiality' here on Earth before the groovy couple [Adam and Eve...Ish and Isha in the Hebrew tongue] got together. There were all sorts of entities born of various beasts/animals that were half humanoid looking...Some were half mammals, some were half reptilian, some were half fish, some half bird...all sorts. [You can read a lot more about this in at least a couple of books I know of, that are a compilation of some [if not every one] of the Cayce readings on specific subjects,. They are published by the ARE. One book is titled "The Origin and Destiny of Man", the other is one or more of the books on Atlantis [I can't recall exactly at the moment]
Amilius, the Adam of the Red Race...[Adam means Red man according to a philologist of whom I've forgotten the name...and curiously Adam does sound very much like Atman of the Sanskrit tongue but that tongue was not of the Red Race but is the root mother tongue of the White Race] was the same soul that incarnated another [according to Cayce] 30 times before his last and 'final' incarnation, as that of the man known, as Jesus/Yeshua of Nazareth.

There are many conjectures on who or what Lilith was...some say it was a woman of human form but not one that God created, rather one that a soul created for itself...Amilius' first physical form was his own creation and not one of Gods either. Amilius had intercourse with Lilith... there was an offspring. That's when God got a bit upset with what was occuring and called this union between Amilius and Lilith and the resultant offspring as a blasphemy.
God gave Adam a God made physical form to which Amilius obligingly took as his physical vessel and leaving the one he had created himself for himself took possession of the perfect form God created as male for Him. In a little span of some more time, God had created a perfect, [non blasphemous] feminine form...that first human female, perfect in design and form.... that very woman that most all of us know in these times as Eve. Yet, although, the first perfect human male, known as Adam, was created as a correct and most proper seat and home for the soul that is known as Amilius, this perfect human female physical form was not created so as to be given to...not offered to be a possession of... the consciousness that was of Lilith. [...as she didn't contain a 'soul']
I got it from another very revered source, [revered to myself and a number of others, anyways] ...that Lilith didn't have a soul as she was not a physical form that was a creation of one of the souls wandering around this planet and observing, desiring and creating and taking physical form in. This same source of of info stated that in fact she,[or more properly, it,] was a creature of the animal kingdom...thus only possessing 'Spirit'...and not soul.

[...now, just a little more on this before I get to Sabian interpretation of Lilith...That's all I'm going to cite here from Cayce, as that is all that is needed for the purpose of explaining this matter...]

In my over 50 years of studying different philosophies and religions, I have met a number [a few...a very few] of highly illumined beings, of whom have knowledge, that is, of the most esoteric and occult of any, possibly even all, such knowledges that can be defined by the terms esoteric and occult, as such.
It was from a Christian Science mystic that I got this [Yes, there are Christian Science mystics and yogis, those that apply Yogic Science to their own particular belief system... [In Japa Yoga, mostly all that one needs to do is just apply a name{s} of their own archetype{s}, ascended master{s}, boddhisatva{s} ...et al... in any prayer, incantation, mantra, etc.] ...and what this Christian Scientist told me, makes sense to me and a number of the aforementioned illumined beings....ready for this?... Lilith was a goat...the offspring that Amilius was responsible for creating, His offspring, His son, was a creature with the upper body of a humanoid and the lower body of a goat...it had/has horns on it head. It, [or He] is known by many as having the name of Satan.
When God called both Satan, and His mother Lilith, a blasphemy Satan became an avowed enemy of the race of perfect men that was then being created. He then found an ally, guess who...you all know it...Lucifer.
That's why there are two names for, the so called at times, Devil...because they are two different entities. [And those of you that insist otherwise...think about this...Lucifer was an Angel and accounts and reports on him state that he has a human form with wings....why would an Angel have the lower body of an animal..hooves and all? [and Horns...!]

Now bearing in mind, all that I've related up to this point in this post. Let me nowstate here what the most prevalent, commonly circulated and espoused effects attributed to that point in space known as Lilith.


According to the website "Angelfire":

"A little-known element in astrology charts, Lilith is known as the "dark Moon" and, as such, represents our "dark" or hidden emotional selves. According to Lois Daton, author of "Lilith, The Planet of the Doodler," the physical existence of Lilith was confirmed by the United States Weather Bureau in 1879. Lilith is the name used for two different celestial bodies - one is located in the asteroid belt and is not our subject here, the other is an invisible body orbiting the earth approximately three times farther away than the Moon, Luna. It is this Lilith which is of interest here.

Lilith's placement in the chart is especially important to women, and represents the power of the original woman. In a man's chart, Lilith's placement will reveal the hidden power struggles or other issues he may have, resolved or unresolved, with the women in his life.

Lilith was known to the Chaldean astrologers; the Egyptians called her Nephthys. The name Lilith is derived from the old Semitic word for night, "lel" or "lelath", in Arabic "laylah," which also means "ghost" or "spectre" in Hebrew. She is associated with the Death card in Tarot and with the goddesses Persephone, Hecate, Athena, Minerva. She is associated with the Owl, representing secrecy and wisdom, and she is frequently connected with cats.

Lilith is perhaps best understood in contrast to her counterpart, the visible Moon, Luna. Luna receives her self-fulfillment and self-definition through the nurturing of others. Lilith is self-fulfilled and self-defined. Luna represents the visible emotions; Lilith is those emotions which remain hidden or secret. Lilith lives behind-the-scenes, usually undetected. She can be sneaky or deceptive, but she can also indicate our ability to be subtle, to guide and manage events and people without being intrusive. She is our ability to be private, and her placement in the chart will tell you what the native feels most secretive about. As a Moon, Lilith is also associated with mothering, but she is the strength of a mother protecting her cubs. Luna is soft and kind and nurturing. Lilith is strong, a disciplinarian, and will kill any who threaten the well-being of her offspring. Lilith is protective and self-protective.

She protects herself from her own toxic emotions, becoming the guardian of shame, guilt, hatred, vengefulness, bitterness, envy, jealousy. We look for Lilith in our charts to discover which defense mechanisms we employ to hide our wounding."


From the "Astrodienst" website another description:

[I edited out the comments about the effects of a transiting Lillith are to ones personal chart...I'll keep them seperate and print them at the end of this posting of mine....or, maybe not]

"During my years of astrological practice, I have come to use the Dark Moon in all my chart analyses, as a complement to interpretating the Moon. It would never occur to me to neglect this influence. ...[The following explains the meaning of where it is found in ones natal chart.] ...The Dark Moon shows where we can let the Whole flow into our selves, without putting an "I" in the way, without putting up a wall in the form of ego. At the same time, it doesn't indicate passivity - on the contrary - it symbolizes the firm will to be open and trusting, to let the Greater World flow through one, relying entirely on the great laws of the universe, on that which we name God. To prepare us for this opening, the Dark Moon creates a necessary void."

(Joλlle de Gravelaine in "Lilith und das Loslassen", Astrologie Heute Nr. 23)


Well, so it would appear that a concise description of the effects of Lillith as to where it is found in a natal chart [Astrodienst]" is indicating where we acquiesce to the will of the Cosmos/ The Creator/God." [Angelfire] "She is our ability to be private, and her placement in the chart will tell you what the native feels most secretive about. & We look for Lilith in our charts to discover which defense mechanisms we employ to hide our wounding."

I know that a few of you members are going to berate or censure me for bringing my 'proposed' birth chart for Jesus/Yeshua into this topic but I wish to use what data I find there for a zodiac degree for Lillith and do an analysis utilizing the above descriptions of the effects of the Natal position of Lillith as they then apply to what is symbolically found there in the Sabian Symbol. [and maybe...hopefully...you'll now understand why I call the birth chart of Jesus/Yeshua, "A TEMPLATE FOR THE TIME"...!!!!! ]

The position of Lillith on April 2, 0003 AD @ 5:23 pm was at 13* Aries 07'. The Part of Spirit/Soul for this same chart is @ 13* Aries 10'. That's the same degree of the Zodiac, the 14th degree of Aries...and I define the Part of Spirit/Soul as symbolically the attitude, action that comes naturally to you and thus you don't need to constantly remind yourself to incorporate it into your mental attitude or be applying it to all actions that you take...all work, duties and such. It is the opposite formula of that of the Part of Fortune and the Sabian Symbol found for ones Part of Fortune is the very application, that you must be ever consciously aware of and applying to to your attitudes and actions to activate and realize the beneficent results, i.e. to be Fortunate ...it symbolically represents how you can best add a Cosmic Principle/Power, Force, The Will of God... to your actions to achieve the completion of your dharma or life mission here in this present incarnation.
As the Sabian found for Lillith is that which is symbolically pictured as the way in which we can be open and trusting and let the Comic energies, i.e. the Creator/Gods' Will, flow through us and direct us...Then it is very similar in effect to that of ones Part of Spirit/Soul...as both give a general, non specifically targeted overall ease to all the other things going on in your life. It's just that the Sabian Symbol found at the Part of Soul is a natural condition that is one with our being, and no effort is needed to recall the symbolism or remind oneself of it or make an effort to manifest and maintain in action, mental attitude, or pre-condition, to approach or being receptive, to achieve an ease and oneness of a flow of the Cosmos/of Creation as we naturally acquiesce to what principle symbolically described by the Sabian Symbol without having to make conscious effort to will it so. What is symbolically found in the image of the Sabian Symbol at the degree of the Zodiac where ones natal placement of Lillith is found at, is a symbolical image to remember, of that which one needs only to surrender to, embrace, acquiesce to, and become one with in beingness and identity, as it then thus allows ourselves more of what will open to that flow of Cosmic force that seeks us and lets, our lives be, more of ease with, and oneness with, the Tao, the FLOW!.

[From Rudhyars book on the Sabian Symbols...
and once you've read this you should then understand why I gave the lengthy discourse on the Cayce reading identifying Jesus as the Adam of the Book of Genesis.]

" (ARIES 14°): A SERPENT COILING NEAR A MAN AND A WOMAN.

KEYNOTE: Identification in bipolar relationship with the impersonal rhythm of natural energy.

The symbol for Phase 4 pictures a man and a woman in love walking together. At this new and more mentally stimulated level of experience and consciousness, a third factor appears: the serpent, whose coiling represents the spiral-like process of evolution - not merely "sex" according to the maker of cathartic symbols, Sigmund Freud. We can understand this "triangular" image — man, woman and the serpent — if we relate it to the preceding one in the series, the unexploded bomb of the anarchist or activist. The urge to blow up some structure which somehow has become in the activist's mind a symbol of the Establishment — the ruling elite — is usually the protest of an alienated and often immature mind that refuses relationship, because in the relationship he would occupy a subservient position. In this symbol, the serpent represents the acceptance of relationship by the two polarized human beings.

There must be a polarization before there can be fulfillment. The tragedy of so many contemporary lives is that, having become sharply individualized, the men and women cannot find their truly matching polar-opposite. Because they are not fulfilled at the root level of human emotions and vitalistic forces, they pass their lives seeking the ideal complement, often glamorized as the "soul mate." This search can find its expression at several levels. At the mystical level we have the examples of the "spiritual marriage" of Saint Francis of Assisi and Santa Clara, or recently of Sri Aurobindo and Mother Mira.

The Adam and Eve story (in Hebrew, Ish and Isha - much more significant names!) refers to this principle of polarization, although the story has been turned upside down by priestly intellects to serve their purposes. Adam and Eve accepted the Presence, not of the Tempter, but of the Individualizer, who sought to have them born out of the womb of unconscious passivity to Nature's God. But the result of the experience frightened them. They "hid"; they failed in the great test of individualization, and in this sense the archetype of that failure is deeply imbedded in man's generic unconscious. It is repeated time after time.

Modern "individuals" are confronted with another test, but they do not understand its meaning. It is the test of polarized conscious participation in the evolutionary process - a polarization that could dissolve alienation, isolation and egocentricity. In a sense at least, this was the old Tantric concept in India; but today many young people accept the concept only superficially and miss its real essence. They cannot understand the meaning of entering into the serpent, i.e. of developing eonic consciousness and that transpersonal living which once was characterized by the words: Not I live, but Christ lives me - Christ, whose symbolic number in Gnosticism is 888.

At this fourth stage of the third five-fold sequence, we are confronted with an image suggesting the transpersonal way to the "cosmification" of desire and the conscious acceptance of polarization as the solution of the problems generated by individualization. But this need not mean what is currently meant by "sex" and the glorification of the orgasm. It implies rather the RITUALIZATION OF RELATIONSHIP."

If Cayce's accounts are true [I don't doubt them, myself] then it makes perfect sense as the symbol for Lillith in Jesus/Yeshua's birth chart...as His soul had something He had to be secretive of...As Cayce said in answer to a question. [ reading #1092]
Q. When did the knowledge come to Jesus tha He was to become the Savior of the world?
A. When He fell in Eden.

At this present time, I understand this to mean, that because He was kicked out of Eden,[ and, possibly also, because, if the Christian Science Mystic is correct, He is also the father of Satan...] He was responsible for all subsequent generations of mankind being cast out...& also,
Possibly set the stage for subsequent sins...He died not for our sins [per se] but for HIS OWN and the sins of Man that followed as He was in part ,if not wholly, responsible for those sins too.

__________________
You are a Divine Creation of the Universe...!

Last edited by piercethevale; 03-07-2012 at 12:32 AM. Reason: incl. the word Judaism @ end of introduction & a lil' more clarity
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

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Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
I've never really got a handle on the meaning of Lilith in Astrology myself. By that I mean I don't state anything about it conclusively...but in this craft* that's more the rule than the exception. *[aspiring to be recognized as a science...which it will be someday.]

I never paid any attention to Lilith ...

She protects herself from her own toxic emotions, becoming the guardian of shame, guilt, hatred, vengefulness, bitterness, envy, jealousy. We look for Lilith in our charts to discover which defense mechanisms we employ to hide our wounding."
***
I never paid any attention to Lilith either, until today. I'm happy to report that in my natal chart it shows up in my 9th house at 15 Scorpio 44, the symbol for which is Scorpio 16: A girl's face breaking into a smile ;-)


--sdh3
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

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Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
I've never really got a handle on the meaning of Lilith in Astrology myself.

I never paid any attention to Lilith until 1998 or 99.

I know that a few of you members are going to berate or censure me for bringing my 'proposed' birth chart for Jesus/Yeshua into this topic but I wish to use what data I find there for a zodiac degree for Lillith and do an analysis utilizing the above descriptions of the effects of the Natal position of Lillith as they then apply to what is symbolically found there in the Sabian Symbol.

The position of Lillith on April 2, 0003 AD @ 5:23 pm was at 13* Aries 07'. The Part of Spirit/Soul for this same chart is @ 13* Aries 10'. That's the same degree of the Zodiac, the 14th degree of Aries...and I define the Part of Spirit/Soul as symbolically the attitude, action that comes naturally to you and thus you don't need to constantly remind yourself to incorporate it into your mental attitude or be applying it to all actions that you take...all work, duties and such. It is the opposite formula of that of the Part of Fortune and the Sabian Symbol found for ones Part of Fortune is the very application, that you must be ever consciously aware of and applying to to your attitudes and actions to activate and realize the beneficent results, to be Fortunate ...it symbolically represents how you can best achieve the completion of your dharma or life mission here in this present incarnation.
As the Sabian found for Lillith is that which is Sabian Symbolically pictured as the way in which we can be open and trusting and let the Comic energies, i.e. the Creator/Gods' Will, flow through us and direct us...Then it is very similar in effect to that of ones Part of Spirit/Soul...as both give a general, non specifically targeted overall ease to all the other things going on in your life. It's just that the Sabian Symbol found at the Lillith must be continuously remembered and applied...or as often as is necessary, to be realistic.

[From Rudhyars book on the Sabian Symbols...
and once you've read this you should then understand why I gave the lengthy discourse on the Cayce reading identifying Jesus as the Adam of the Book of Genesis.]

" (ARIES 14°): A SERPENT COILING NEAR A MAN AND A WOMAN.

KEYNOTE: Identification in bipolar relationship with the impersonal rhythm of natural energy.

The symbol for Phase 4 pictures a man and a woman in love walking together. At this new and more mentally stimulated level of experience and consciousness, a third factor appears: the serpent, whose coiling represents the spiral-like process of evolution - not merely "sex" according to the maker of cathartic symbols, Sigmund Freud. We can understand this "triangular" image — man, woman and the serpent — if we relate it to the preceding one in the series, the unexploded bomb of the anarchist or activist. The urge to blow up some structure which somehow has become in the activist's mind a symbol of the Establishment — the ruling elite — is usually the protest of an alienated and often immature mind that refuses relationship, because in the relationship he would occupy a subservient position. In this symbol, the serpent represents the acceptance of relationship by the two polarized human beings.

There must be a polarization before there can be fulfillment. The tragedy of so many contemporary lives is that, having become sharply individualized, the men and women cannot find their truly matching polar-opposite. Because they are not fulfilled at the root level of human emotions and vitalistic forces, they pass their lives seeking the ideal complement, often glamorized as the "soul mate." This search can find its expression at several levels. At the mystical level we have the examples of the "spiritual marriage" of Saint Francis of Assisi and Santa Clara, or recently of Sri Aurobindo and Mother Mira.

[COLOR="rgb(255, 140, 0)"]The Adam and Eve story (in Hebrew, Ish and Isha[/COLOR] - much more significant names!) refers to this principle of polarization, although the story has been turned upside down by priestly intellects to serve their purposes. Adam and Eve accepted the Presence, not of the Tempter, but of the Individualizer, who sought to have them born out of the womb of unconscious passivity to Nature's God. But the result of the experience frightened them. They "hid"; they failed in the great test of individualization, and in this sense the archetype of that failure is deeply imbedded in man's generic unconscious. It is repeated time after time.

Modern "individuals" are confronted with another test, but they do not understand its meaning. It is the test of polarized conscious participation in the evolutionary process - a polarization that could dissolve alienation, isolation and egocentricity. In a sense at least, this was the old Tantric concept in India; but today many young people accept the concept only superficially and miss its real essence. They cannot understand the meaning of entering into the serpent, i.e. of developing eonic consciousness and that transpersonal living which once was characterized by the words:[COLOR="rgb(255, 140, 0)"] Not I live, but Christ lives me - Christ, whose symbolic number in Gnosticism is 888.[/COLOR]

At this fourth stage of the third five-fold sequence, we are confronted with an image suggesting the transpersonal way to the "cosmification" of desire and the conscious acceptance of polarization as the solution of the problems generated by individualization. But this need not mean what is currently meant by "sex" and the glorification of the orgasm. It implies rather the RITUALIZATION OF RELATIONSHIP."

If Cayce's accounts are true [I don't doubt them, myself] then it makes perfect sense as the symbol for Lillith in Jesus/Yeshua's birth chart...and also as something He had to be secretive of...apparently, as the majority of people He was working with, socializing with, worshiping alongside of, were fellow Jews and to have claimed himself to be Adam reincarnate...[or any one of that number of His previous incarnations, [Cayce said in a manner, that suggested he was giving a generalization, round about figure, when He said that the incarnation as Yeshua was His [Amilius'] 30th incarnation. Two of which he didn't do so by birth but rather by manifestation by the will of the consciousness of the soul. [Cayce said that the soul known as Amilius had also been Malchizedak and Enoch, both whom manifested themselves incarnate, into being, by the will of their soul alone and not by birth through an 'act of physical love' by a man and a woman, and thus did not have parents. This is the same manner of manifestation of being that is attributed to Krishna by most nearly all the disciples, practitioners, members and/or believers of the religion that is known as, Sanatan Dharm. ...[To those of you unfamiliar with that term. In the Occidental world, that is the religion known, and most always heard referred to, as Hinduism. Please be informed and ever aware that the words Hindu and Hinduism are insulting to hear by those of that faith and /or to many that aren't of that faith but are from India or are from any, one of a number, of the many countries in the Orient where members or practitioners are native in origin to.
To those of you who are of that particular faith, and/or who are of origin from India. I apologize for using that appellation of British origin. Just as the term, "Quaker", also of British origin is an insult, to those of us whom are members of that faith, which is only properly known as, or called, "the Society of Friends."
"
n
piercethevale,

there is a tremendous amount of import in what you've written above. Due to time limitations it may be a few days before I can address it all. However, I do want to state that my etymological analysis of Aries 14 conforms very nicely with much of what you've written above. I'll try to post that analysis as a reply tomorrow or the next day, perhaps with a few comments linking it to what you've written above.

sdh3

PS: Blessed Wesak to all.
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

sdh3, I haven't read your replies. I apologize for this thread I started here as I unwittingly and prematurely posted it.
I started writing it around 9pm last night and due to constant checking of facts, searching for charts and info I needed to look at for data and or was using for reference, searching online for definitions, it took a lot longer than I thought it would and about 5 am I decided I was going to put it aside and complete it later. I intended to only preview it for a brief glace of where it stood as being finished and of adequate quality to do so and then just leave it on screen and the computer in active mode until I had some sleep and then could go right back to it, to put it in coherence, and proper grammar, etc. and finish it.
Only to awake after a couple of hours and find that I had posted it by error. Thus I hurriedly tried to edit, rewrite parts and complete it and that only became more of a effort of irritation and consternation...and I'm still cleaning it up...it's now almost two pm and I've had about 2 hours of sleep since I awoke and got up at 3 am Sunday morning.
I'm going to have to learn to use the word pad or some other software program I have that I can use off line and then post from that when I'm ready to. [as I lost internet connection once during the writing of this and lost everything of which is/was about a third of what the amount of writing that the finished piece will entail.]
I've found that growing older hasn't made my ability to use the computer any less difficult or less confusing...it's more the opposite as I become less interested in learning another procedure and use of yet another different type of or some altogether new software...and that is all the more so, as I age.
I can predictably see that at some time in the future I'll become completely incompetent with a computer and I will want to, or may have to, return to one of the simple and non-technical hobbies or activity I used to engage in for diversion...[I used to enjoy doing the New York Times crossword puzzle everyday...but never the Sunday one though.
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

I have completed the editing and have now placed the first post in form that I had intended to...thanks to all for your patience and understanding. ptv
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

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Thank you piercethevale,

This should be a sticky or added to the Education Board.

I wouldn't...as to the inclusion of Jesus/Yeshua in the text...that would only create a lot of howls...but, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE COMPLIMENT...THIS WAS ONE TOUGH EFFORT...I'M EXHAUSTED...
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

Lilith in my birth chart:
[from Rudhyars' book]

"(VIRGO 15°): A FINE LACE HANDKERCHIEF, HEIRLOOM FROM VALOROUS ANCESTORS.

KEYNOTE: The quintessence of deeds well done.


Root strength produces beautiful flowers. The neophyte who acts with determination, courage and discrimination while following "in the footsteps" of his predecessors receives a symbolic prize from the Brotherhood ready to welcome him when he has fully proven himself on the battlefield where he meets his past, which tries to block his way. The mystic Beloved hands him what she has woven for him out of spiritual threads.

This is the last stage of the thirty-third sequence which also ends the eleventh scene, "Characterization." This scene began with the revelation in a portrait of salient features in a man's face. It ends with symbols which bring out the ultimate validity of the many efforts of generations of men toward the building of a beautiful and significant CULTURE. The Man of Culture is, in the deepest and best sense of the term, the Aristocrat. He is the flowering of a line of ancestors who have accepted responsibility for a group or community. Likewise, the true "disciple" is the blossom that crowns a long series of incarnations.
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

...and in addition..My Part of Service/Servitude is the 14th of Virgo, and it does add to the overall understanding...

[source: Rudhyar]

"(VIRGO 14°): AN ARISTOCRATIC FAMILY TREE.

KEYNOTE: A deep reliance upon the ancestral roots of individual character.

Stressed here is the fact that the power available to any man in time of crisis and decision has very deep roots in the past, whether the past of physical ancestry or the past outlined by a series of previous embodiments conditioned by some dominant purpose and by the many-phased development of a particular type of complex character. True spontaneity and creativity are always based on a structured sequence of antecedents if they are at all genuinely spiritual, i.e. if they are able to meet a collective need. Only the actions that are necessary — even if only in the long run — for meeting such a need can actually be called "spiritual."

This fourth stage symbol, strange as it may seem to many people — especially young people of our day — suggests a technique which, at critical times, must be used. It characterizes the means for true "success." One returns to the roots in order to produce the flowering of personality, if this flower is to bring forth a living seed. ROOT POWER is essential to seed-achievement."
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

PHASE 229 (SCORPIO 19°): A PARROT REPEATS THE CONVERSATION HE HAS OVERHEARD.
KEYNOTE: The capacity to transmit transcendental knowledge.
To the individual who lives in a state of ardent and sustained faith it may become possible to become a channel for the trans-mission of a knowledge or wisdom that transcends his normal mental understanding. The mind that has learned to be silent and attentive can become attuned to the rhythm of utterances which he may not comprehend intellectually, yet which may truly manifest superhuman realizations. Discrimination is needed here to balance the over-eagerness of faith.
At this fourth stage of the five-fold sequence of symbols we are given a hint as to man's capacity to attune himself to sources of higher wisdom if he can be sufficiently attentive and careful in channeling a "higher Voice." To stress here the negative element of automatism and unintelligent repetition is to use only one's intellect. All birds in symbolism suggest spiritual faculties or forces. What is evoked is the possibility of learning from higher Intelligences. Keyword: CHANNELSHIP.

==========================================

The last part fits for me.. I do feel the spirtiual forces at work with me.. good and bad.. Either way I know.. Have always known its part of my learning experiences.
I am trying to reach the higher wisdom... I'm on a quest for truth, and learning... But Its suppose to be about me, so I can turn around and spread it and share it..

Does this make any sense?
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

Greetings. I just checked my e-mail and got from, my friend, Don Cerow his monthly Moon Mail.
I noticed that the Part of Fortune for the Full Moon is conj. my Part of Intelligence and that Juno is conj. my natal Lilith. As Juno is reputed to be about Marriage, Sexual encounter, soul mates etc.
Dang!


Here's the chart cast by Mr. Don Cerow!
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Unread 05-23-2011, 10:41 AM
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

Greetings. I've already stated that I didn't want this thread to become labeled as "Sticky", as for the reason that I've utilized the birth chart of Jesus/Yeshua almost exclusively to use as a model of interpretation as to what Astrordienst and Angelfire have given as definitions to put their respective theories, or claims, as to what the definitive of Lilith is.
As I do believe in Cayce being truthful and as near accurate as he was capable [or allowed] of being, I knew that using what I believe and know to be the true birth chart of the Man from Nazareth would give indication of how Lilith relates and will give affect to a natal chart as because of that of the relationship of Amilius/Adam to Lilith.
Another reason I didn't want this as a 'Sticky' is that I felt it would limit any futher commentary I may have yet to add as to the subject of Jesus/Yeshua that is not directly on the topic of Lilith. Also, because I hadn't decided that both the definitions by the two sources mentioned above are in fact completely accurate or if either one isn't solely or partially inaccurate.
So, I do have to add another bit of info that concerns little as to the Lilith interpretation but, I believe, is important to this thread as it may very well give more data to ponder as to a any future studies and attempts at a conclusive definition of what Lilith is and its focus of affect.
That info is from another clairvoyant reading by Edgar Cayce that explained how Mary was able to produce a son, a male, from virgin birth despite the known that a woman can only produce a female child from such circumstances. Cayce explained it as thus [this is the best I can remember from what I read as it was great many years ago that I ran across this reading by Cayce explaining it...and I don't have the case number to refer to nor cite]. Eve was and did contain the other half of Adams soul. This was explained by Cayce as that when God created woman he had to divide all souls of the Sons of God [those that came after the entrapped souls prior to the creation of Adam{s}] as to a necessity of the matter of creating Eve[s] and all women to come afterward. [And Cayce did subsquently explain to a question that, yes we all have a soul mate...but that doesn't mean to go looking for them as your physical mate as you will most likely find that person is not compatible to you in this incarnation...]
Cayce said that Mary, mother of Jesus, had been Eve to Amilius and was, in fact, the soul mate of Jesus....that a male child can only be born from a virgin mother when that mother is possessed by the other half of the male childs soul.
That being said now...I feel I've given all the info, I have, that may be pertinent, that's helpful, to make a conclusion.
One more thing. As Miss X... [from my book; as to the one that came into my life with so many signs, omen and, what were, at least astrological clues if not outright, aspects known to be indications of being of association or service to Yeshua/Jesus in someway....which she in fact was, as I have learned.]...and I have a composite Venus in the 14th degree of Aries [My natal Venus at the 15th degree of Aries and Hers in the 13th degree of Aries} I aske my clairvoyant friend and spiritual confidante, Clarisse Conner, if Miss X was indeed my soul mate as it was explained by Edgar Cayce and she did in fact say that yes, as far as she could tell...which, I take to mean that such a question had never been asked of Clarisse and what ever image she was seeing she had to interpret it as such.
I have postulated that anyones soulmate will produce a composite Venus at the 14th degree of Aries in a composite chart. That certainly doesn't mean anyone that may produce such a composite as odds are 1 person in 360 will do so produce that in composite to you, but that the true soul mate will always so produce...just a postulation now, mind you...please.
Thu, if this postulation/theory of mine is correct then Mary's Venus would have to have been in the 20th degree of Taurus.
As the Sabian Symbol for Miss X's natal Venus is so accurate as to who she is by that planets attributes I would say that then what is found for the 20th of Taurus to be as accurate for Mother Mary.
According to Rudhyars' book.
"(TAURUS 20°): WISPS OF WING-LIKE CLOUDS STREAMING ACROSS THE SKY.

KEYNOTE: The awareness of spiritual forces at work.

Any emergence of life potentialities from the depth of the vast Unconscious is answered by the spiritual activity of superconscious forces in a cosmic kind of antiphony. The individual who has taken a new step in their evolution should look for the "Signature" of divine Powers confirming their progress. It may reveal the meaning of what is to come next. The "wing-like clouds" may also symbolize the presence of celestial beings (devas, angels) blessing and subtly revealing the direction to take, the direction of "the wind" of destiny.

This is the fifth stage of the tenth five-fold sequence. It concludes a process, having experienced which the individual should find themselves more securely established in their own original nature, receiving the BLESSINGS of super-natural forces."

Having read a great deal, if not all, that Cayce said regarding Mary, who she was and what transpired in her life particularly the "Annunciation"...that Symbol and Rudhyars' definitive analysis is mind boggling...
I have been given a darn good reason to continue investigating this postulate of mine concerning soul mates.
One last note...as to the lil' discourse I gave above pertaing to Lucifer and Satan.
I spent a mind and azz numbing period sitting here in my chair the last two days trying to grasp and understand all that different scientific approaches to whats words mean, their origins, etc. [Etymology, Philology, Semantics, Linguistics, Hermeneutics, Semiotics, Exegesis & Eisegesis, Shabada...and that's "just a tip of the old iceberg" as their are so many sub branches of the studies...but, the Shabada thing really caught my attention and I will be exploring more of that...as it is very much of interest to me as because of my life long involvement with Japa Yoga...]...I nearly got sidetracked into a Biblical/Religion forum as their were a number of members of that stating that Saturn and Sabbath have a common root as to pertaining to a thread on the word 'Saturday'...which, they don't as the word Sabbath is of Hebraic origin and Hebraic is not of the Indo-European tree [at least not the last time I re-checked...]...there were some that were also arguing that Satan was somehow connected with the word Saturn...even going so far as to suggest that religion from India, which inferred specifically 'Hinduism' , because that belief is only, properly, know as Sanatan Dharm to the peoples of India. There was another thread arguing that there was only one entity of evil and that its name is Satan because there is no entity named Lucifer as Lucifer is the name for the name of the Morning Star and...yada...yada...yada...
So, please, if you feel you have to tear into me for what I wrote above about that stuff...please recall that I didn't state it as any thing other than what I had heard and how it may be so applied or adapted to part of the explanation/deduction of what Lilith is and what the definitive effects and influences of Lilith may be and does.
So, that all being said the main thing I wish to get at is I'm not entirely sure that the two definitions of Astrodienst and Angelfire are in fact both true and should be as one understanding. It seems a little peculiar to me that we should be secretive about what the specific principle/law of the Creator/Cosmos "Will" we acquiesce to is. But when both what I stated in the first post about the Adam and Eve business and this post are combined, as I said I had to add this info about soul mates to fairly give all to be consider to formulation of a definitive answer or at least one closer nearing to conclusion...it could be that both Astrodienst and Angelfire are correct and in fact should each be included in a concise and truthful explanation.
....I'm exhausted...I, going to stop here...let this brew for awhile...ya' all feel free to carry on any discussions between yourselves in the meantime...Peace. ptv
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

Well, so it would appear that a concise description of the effects of Lillith as to where it is found in a natal chart [Astrodienst]" is indicating where we acquiesce to the will of the Cosmos/ The Creator/God." [Angelfire] "She is our ability to be private, and her placement in the chart will tell you what the native feels most secretive about. & We look for Lilith in our charts to discover which defense mechanisms we employ to hide our wounding."

...additional thought as pertaining to the above definition[s], in light of my Sabian Symbol as explained by Rudhyar, for Lilith in my natal chart.
It does apply, as I am know and am aware of such facts and info pertaining to myself about ancestral obligations and prior incarnations, to acquiescence to God and being secretive. Things, I suppose, that are best kept secretive [as least presently and maybe until my demise, as it would probably distract from my purpose being in this present life...bringing an understanding of Astrology].
But, I see it as not a mechanism to hide my wounding but rather to heal it.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 04:20 AM
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

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Do you folks believe anything you read on Angelfire because someone posts it ?

It would seem so.
You lost me, Rocket. Care to elaborate?
--sdh3
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Unread 05-26-2011, 01:48 PM
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

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Any twelve year old can write something about astroogy and post it on the net.

Is that where you want to get information about an exquisite science like astrology?

The lengthy posts tend to full of bull ****.
Most 12 year olds can write and spell astrology too.
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

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Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
Any twelve year old can write something about astroogy and post it on the net.

Is that where you want to get information about an exquisite science like astrology?

The lengthy posts tend to full of bull ****.
I eagerly await your pithy insights.
---sdh3
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Unread 05-26-2011, 02:47 PM
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

I never took any thing written about astrology as something factual from day one. I was completely skeptical of astrology in its entirety and followed the advice of Edgar Cayce that it was useless as in the form it was being practiced in the 1st half of the 20th century.
It was only after my brother had spent a two year intensive in reading everything on the subject he could find and noticed conclusively that at least some of the traditional practices and knowledges were correct. I spent a 9 mo intensive with Him subsequently and I went from being an almost totally outspoken critic of it to a fellow more like my brother had become... as one that was convinced it certainly had some validity and value and I was going to study it and keep analyzing the results.
Lilith is a very little understood astrological influence and very few astrologers have used it ever in a natal chart.
I said I din't wholly agree with Angelfires definition or did you miss that somehow?
As the Sabian Symbols have been used to understand and rectify a great deal of the Arabic parts and even demonstrated exactly just what it is that a few of the Parts are actually oriented to, I figured that possibly we could get a better understanding by analyzing a few charts of well known people and see what develops as to any of the various definitions being alleged for Lilith.


Here's some additional commentary..slightly diferent definition of Lilith and her attributes.

[from Aquamoonlight Astrology]

"In astrology, the Dark Moon is representative of the darker side of our nature, the negative side. It is the hidden depths that we know exist yet we prefer not to acknowledge. It is subtle on the surface, yet profound beneath. It is the foundations of our personality and the shocking truth that we often deny and project onto others instead. The refusal to see what is really within ourselves. The subtle refusal to see what part we may have played in some unpleasant drama of our lives, how we ourselves have manifested our fears. It is the kind of thing that we intrinsically know we have to deal with, confront the darker side in order to progress unhindered, yet most often we try to ignore. It is the deeper truth that we are forever in search of within ourselves. Probably the best use we can make of the dark moon is to explore our hidden depths, realise that we all have that darker side and go within to resolve that which ultimately hinders us.

The Dark Moon is representative of the negative traits of guilt, shame, hatred, envy, and vengefulness, often brought about by personal wounds and hurts. The true dark side of things we try to hide.

It is also representative of the enchantress or the seducer, one who lures another by use of sexuality or devious means. The kind who tempts another by implying that the grass is greener on the other side, that they can "rescue" someone, but it is in reality for their own selfish gain.

These things do not only apply to women, they apply to men as well, as the Black Moon is also their feminine side.

Keywords: danger, darkness, deceit, destruction, devious, devouring, dreams, emptiness, enchantress, envy, fears, guilt, hatred, imagination, isolation, jealousy, magic, marriage-wrecker, mystery, night, poison, secrets, seduction, shame, the "other woman" who thinks a man needs rescuing from the "chains" of his partner, vengefulness"
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Unread 05-26-2011, 03:20 PM
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

As to the story i gave above concerning Miss X and I possibly being actual 'soul mates' i.e. two halves of what originally was one complete soul...as Mother Mary and Jesus were, again the same two soul mates, two halves of an original singular soul, that had also been Adam and Eve of the Hebrew Bible.
I mentioned that she and I had a composite Venus at the 14th degree of Aries. And we both had mercury at the 28th of Aries...but, to me, what's really interesting, as to this threads topic, is that Her Lilith is at the 25th degree of Aquarius...the same as my Moon!

...Interestingly Her Sun is at the 14th of Aries as well..and, as we already covered, Jesus/Yeshuas' Lilith was there. Miss Xs Venus is at the 12th of aries...where Jesus/Yeshuas natal Sun was. As Ive said in many threads, and most pointedly, She and Yeshua both had Pluto conj. their Asc.s [the factor that was the main key clue to figuring out what time of day Yeshua was born]. She and Yeshua both have Arabic part of Love at the 26* of Leo...a most profound degree by its Sabian Symbol and a key degree that was part of the understanding that lead to the application of musical tonality to the Zodiac [see my thread on the 7 & 5]...

In fact she and Yeshua shared many of the same degree and Sabian symbols between their charts as many of those where between Arabic parts that were not the same Part...but were in complimentary ones...
I asked my good friend, and spirtual confidante, the reknowned clairvoyant, Clarisse Conner if Miss X had been alive and had known Yeshua in that life same life 2000 years ago and Clarisse said yes, she was and had. She said that Miss X had been something of a nanny to him as an infant. Miss X in that life, had or, had assisted those who hid him, as an infant, at those times when it was necessary...which I assume to mean to have hid him from King Harod. Edgar Cayce said that there were two of these nannies as He had gven a life reading for one of them whom had re-incarnated in the early 20th century. Miss X would then have been the other one...the one named Sophia if I recall correctly from the Cayce readings.
[Also, not to mention the symbology in the numbers associated with her birth. she was born the April 3rd @ 3:03 PM ...as the number 33 is the mystical number of Jesus, the man [as 55 is the mystical and esoteric number of Mother Mary]...even Miss Xs real name, her maiden name is quite a clue...unfortunately I can't divulge it, Miss X wishes to remain unknown...but it is a combination of the word Christ as it is spelled in another country and their language and an ancient name for the creator from yet another civilization/culture, a very advanced and ancient civilization of much influence directly, and indirectly, upon the ancient Hebrews... But, that Her name is such as so that... it is not immediately obvious...only when one breaks the sylables of her name into separate words...it becomes thus three words...the name of Christ in a language of a foreign country, a conjunction, and a ancient name for God in an ancient and all but lost civilization and culture.


Here's Miss Xs chart...the one I have for Yeshua is posted in numerous threads in this forum and so is my own birth chart if anyone should wish to compare them to one another.
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

Thus if the Lilith is that other side to the Moon qualities...it's soul mate in a sense and represents the feminine side of my self...then Miss X having her Lilith right where my natal Moon was seems to add some kind of indication... a very significant 'sign' [indication] that she is indeed my own soul mate.
Curiously, we did have a bit of a romantic relationship for awhile. Early in the first few months of knowing her, we were sitting on the couch in her living room...about to go out and have dinner. I gave her a very, intense, meaningful hug that almost was passionate. She returned it and we held each other that way for a few seconds during which I allowed myself to see if I couldn't actually get our individual energy fields to merge...I just gave it a the same meditative application i do in a few yogic rituals and sometimes meditation itself. I felt the two fields merge and could actually sense being both within and outside of her...It startled her..not terribly in a bad way ...but she was rather surprised and did jerk back just a touch saying 'What was that?'...it was what is known as a most genuine 'Tantric Experience' and the ease with which it occurred between us..just in a fully clothed, non-sexual hug/embrace...has caused me to attribute it to the 'soul mate' thing. [or, possibly a condition due to the meta-physical bestowing proclivities ... and the super charging of those same, a result of her natal Pluto being of such perfect or near perfect conj Her Asc. ... within less than thirty minutes of one degree.] combined with my own talent bestowed by Pluto conj.my M.C. that gives me an awareness/feel/sense...an ability to detect and pinpoint the origin of such as the energies she exudes and even connect with them as I did that eve.]
[Also my Sun is Taurus [17* degree] and Her Moon is Taurus [24* degree]..just a random coincidence or is it something that is complimenting that Lilith conj my natal Moon affair between us?
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

I had to delete most of the post I made here yesterday which is explained below. My apologies for any confusion it may have caused and for the time lost by any member who did happen to read that nonsense. ptv
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I only, moments ago, learned that you can get astrodiensts charts to generate and produce the location of the "Black Moon Lilith" from the websites FAQ page:

Q."Is it possible to get a chart with true BML (Black Moon Lilith)?

Yes, you can show true Lilith by entering 'h13' in the asteroid field at the bottom of the Extended Horoscope Selection page.

The so-called 'true Lilith' appears in the chart drawing with the abbreviation 'osc.', and in the aspect table below as 'sc. Apogee'."


When I tried it on my birth chart for Yeshu'a what came up really gave me start at first ...but upon reading the Sabian symbol it all became as like the light from the Sun had just stuck me in the face!

I got 14* Aries 43' 15" [now, I only also tired this with my own natal chart. I did that application first, and that it came up in the 12th of Libra some 28 degrees away from 'Lilith', which is in Virgo at 14* 53', in my chart is the reason for my being startled in that I had suspected that it could come up in any of the 360 degrees...which is what I'm assuming right now. It may in fact be a limited range between the two that they can be astray from one another, I don't presently know.]
...and that is right next to 'Lilith' on this natal chart at 13* Aries 06' 55"...almost like the one is 'shadowing' the other...!?!

[I deleted all that followed as it was a gross mistake on my part. I had mistaken the term 'Black Moon Lilith' for that of 'Dark Moon Lilith' aka the Waldemath Moon, which is not what writing in h13 in the additional objects request box of the extended charts page at astrodienst will get you. [As I have now read all of the information, diagrams, more thoroughly and then re-read it all again. I'm capable of explaining the following.] The 'Lilith' that is in the 'Additional objects' drop down menu list in tht "Extended Charts" section at astrodienst produces the 'Mean Lilith", not unlike the 'Mean Node'... by writing in h13, it will produce the 'True Lilith, the osculating 'Lilith'. The 'Mean' is the ideal flight plan, e.g. 'As the crow flys'. The "True" is the osculating path that the Moon actually ended up following.
I was recently given a good number of astrology books that came from a friends recently departed mother's collection. One in the lot is" Asteroid Goddesses" written by Demetra George with Douglas Bloch. In the book they describe three liliths [as they also write about the asteroid that is named 'Lilith, which I have no use for. I don't believe for a moment that it has any astrological influence of any kind... IMHO, of course.] The book states:

"The Asteroid Lilith describes the first stage in the mythical journey where she is suppressed, humiliated and flees in a fiery rage to the desolate wilderness. The Dark Moon Lilith depicts the pain of her exile where she plots and executes revenge. The Black Moon Lilith shows how she transmutes her distorted image back into its natural healthy expression”


What is partially to blame for my confusion is that astrodienst also calls the "Black Moon Liliths" the "Dark Moon Liliths" and only uses the term 'Waldemath Moon' for that particular phenomena. The authors of that book use the term "Dark Moon Lilith'' for that which is also known as the "Waldemath Moon" as I also do.

Gee, I wish everybody would get on the same page with the nomenclature.

There is a huge difference between the two kinds of Liliths. The BMLs take about 9 months to traverse on Sign, the Waldemath Moon takes just a skosh under ten days to do the same.

The Waldemath Moon has nothing to do with our Moon or it's path [The BML is actually the apogee of the Moons orbit. Although one source says it is the apogee to the Sun and another says it's to the Earth and another says that the two are the same difference...so, I really haven't clue as to anything else beyond that.] The Waldemath Moon, by legend , it is written that sightings of the 'Phantom Moon' goes back as far as 1618. It is said that it appears as a "sphere shaped dust cloud". Dr. Walter Old, aka astrologer Sepharial, claimed to have confirmed the existence of Waldemath's 'Mystery moon', back in 1918.

I apologize for posting what I did. It had me believing that it was leading up to a great breakthrough in understanding and a method of proper interpretation of the two 'Liliths'. [and not to mention the number of hours I spent recasting a couple of dozen charts and then writing the two [or maybe three] posts I wrote on the subject for different threads yesterday... of which, I guess I'll just let those stand till tomorrow...it's late, and my enthusiasm for writing has waned considerably today.
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

"Waldemath's Moon" can be calculated and printed on a chart at astrodienst by writing in h58, in the "Additional objects" request box in the "Extended Charts" page option. That's h13 for the 'True Black Moon Lilith' aka "Osculating Lilith", ...and h58 for the "Dark Moon Lilith" aka "Waldemath's Moon" ...but remember that astrodienst doesn't recognize the term 'DML" being associated with the 'Phantom Moon' of dust, but rather that it is the same as BML to them.

...I wish everyone would get on the same page with the astrological nomenclature. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG5OelgQbnM
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

Lillith is in my second house at the 29th degree of taurus. I have felt for some time the power of this force within my chart. Although it opposes my 8th house Mars in Sag and is conj my part of fortune in my 8th, I know its value is a force of good for me.
I really appreciate this discussion and all I continue to learn from this site.

Blessings
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Unread 08-10-2013, 06:50 PM
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

What do you think of Lilith parallel ascedant ?
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

Okay, I believe the question is resolved...in fact, I'm sure of it.

As I started a thread on the Part of War, {Asc + Mars - Pluto} last week, and had been posting on a few other threads at the time and realizing that Uranus had returned, retrograde, to my Part of Unusual Events aka the Part of Misinterpretation {Asc. + Uranus - Moon}... I became worried that i might be in a 'period of time' , where-in I might be very convinced that I'm interpreting things correctly but in reality I'm not.

...so what to do?...

I called my Clairvoyant friend... and spiritual confidante... Clarisse.

I asked Her if I was "...seeing things for what they are. Am I interpreting the Sabians correctly, at this time, for one thing."... I mentioned that the Part of War for the USA natal chart [the "Zero Hour Chart", that is: 12:00:01 a.m. July 4, 1776, Philadelphia, Penn. ..which she confirmed as being "the ONE" to use as the natal for the USA soon after I produced it in March of 2012.] is in the 15th degree of Virgo and was a bit concerned that the natal position of the USA's Lilith being in the 20th of Virgo might be a problem as I had never been 100% convinced that Lilith had any affect on anything at all ...and I also told Her that I was unresolved as to the uncertainty that such a thing actually exists at all and if such a thing does is it then that as to what astrodienst gives as such or between any of the two aforementioned alternatives? [osc Lilith and Waldemath's Noon].

She said that day,that astrodienst's Lilith is the one that is correctly titled and when I asked Her what effect it may have on things astrologically, she replied,; "Have you ever seen one of those videos of a tornado and how the last few feet of it touch the ground and that portion of it is whipping around erratically and with so much force? ... imagine trying to control it!"

Then she told me that as for my correctly "seeing things as they are", she told me she was having this vision of the Sun and something was blocking the light..like an eclipse. She told me not to do postings until the 9th ...which is today.

In the wee hours of last night/this morning [and I still haven't slept yet, I've been up about 22 hours], I opened an email from Phoenix Venus and she had cast a progressed composite of our natal charts and she was quite astir about our prog. composite Lilith being conj. my natal Part of War at the present time. I was a bit stunned, myself, to say the least. So I kicked back in my chair and looking up to my own natal chart that is tacked to the wall directly behind my compute about 2 feet away...and...

I could kick myself... all this time I hadn't really thought about, or 'Realized", would be a better way to put it, that as my natal Lilith is conj. the Part of War, for the United States, what that entailed.

So, I called Her again, just a half hour ago, and asked Her if I should take her 'vision' to mean that I can't grasp it? That I can't grasp the symbology for the degree or is it that Lilith is likely to whip it up?

She replied; "Lilith stirs the pot... vigorously!... And you don't want to be doing that!"

Thus said. I am self banned from ever commenting on matters of "War", pertaining to the United States of America, ever again.

...or for that matter on anything that is associated with anyones' chart for the 15th degree of Virgo.

I urge all, that are reading this, to observe where your own natal Lilith falls and to be so advised as to concerning yourselves and your clients, if you are a professional or give amatuer advice.


...and, btw... I did ask Clarisse last week, after giving a brief description of them, about osc Lilith and Wlademath's Moon, if either of them was that which should be really the one so titled as Lilith [which I already mentioned above..that is, they aren't.] and, or, do either affect anything at all?
Now...I can't recall offhand to which she was referring to, but she said that [which ever one she was in fact talking about] she sees that it does have effect, but it is [possibly...maybe moreover, probably...] an unpredictable "Worm Hole".
She didn't mention what kind of effect though and although, upon my asking, she had once described the manner in which the former planet, now known as, the asteroids do affect [Yes, I thought so, and Clarisse confirmed that the asteroids were at one time a planet and must be given it's due still. That also includes the hierarchy of Planetary rulerships, house rulerships and things akin. The two signs of Sag. and Pisces... Aquarius is ruled by Jupiter, as I deduced...and honestly, it's an easy deduction... Capricorn, expansive Earth...Earth Above Earth... Expansion = Jupiter... and seriously, did anyone believe that 'cold, stern', Saturn was the ruler of; "Empathy for Humanity", lovin' Aquarius? I have an Aquarian Moon, exactly conj. my I.C. ...I should know, that, if I know anything at all about astrology. ... but I digress.] as to be like; "I see worm holes. Opening and closing. Here and then there. Worm holes, opening and closing, opening and closing...here...and then there."

...but the way in which she said it... i have to wonder if she doesn't mean that it is actually a "Worm Hole" we're talking about here...?

..and I just realized that would have to be "Waldemath's moon, Clarisse was talking about...!!!


..oh my... hmmmm...!?!!?!
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Last edited by piercethevale; 12-10-2013 at 06:06 AM. Reason: correction as to the location of the USA's Lilith & to clarify & punctuation
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
Okay, I believe the question is resolved...in fact, I'm sure of it.

As I started a thread on the Part of War, {Asc + Mars - Pluto} last week, and had been posting on a few other threads at the time and realizing that Uranus had returned, retrograde, to my Part of Unusual Events aka the Part of Misinterpretation {Asc. + Uranus - Moon}... I became worried that i might be in a 'period of time' , where-in I might be very convinced that I'm interpreting things correctly but in reality I'm not.

...so what to do?...

I called my Clairvoyant friend, and spiritual confidante, Clarisse.

I asked Her if I was "...seeing things for what they are. Am I interpreting the Sabians correctly, at this time, for one thing."... I mentioned that the Part of War for the USA natal chart [the "Zero Hour Chart", that is: 12:00:01 a.m. July 4, 1776, Philadelphia, Penn. ..which she confirmed as being "the ONE" to use as the natal for the USA soon after I produced it in March of 2012.] is in the 15th degree of Virgo and was a bit concerned that the natal position of the USA's Lilith being in the 19th of Virgo might be a problem as I had never been 100% convinced that Lilith had any affect on anything at all ...and I also told Her that I was unresolved as to the uncertainty that such a thing actually exists at all and if such a thing does is it then that as to what astrodienst gives as such or between any of the two aforementioned alternatives? [osc Lilith and Waldemath's Noon].

She said that day,that astrodienst's Lilith is the one that is correctly titled and when I asked Her what effect it may have on things astrologically, she replied,; "Have you ever seen one of those videos of a tornado and how the last few feet of it touch the ground and that portion of it is whipping around erratically and with so much force? ... imagine trying to control it!"

Then she told me that as for my correctly "seeing things as they are", she told me she was having this vision of the Sun and something was blocking the light..like an eclipse. She told me not to do postings until the 9th ...which is today.

In the wee hours of last night/this morning [and I still haven't slept yet, I've been up about 22 hours], I opened an email from Phoenix Venus and she had cast a progressed composite of our natal charts and she was quite astir about our prog. composite Lilith being conj. my natal Part of War at the present time. I was a bit stunned, myself, to say the least. So I kicked back in my chair and looking up to my own natal chart that is tacked to the wall directly behind my compute about 2 feet away...and...

I could kick myself... all this time I hadn't thought about, or 'Realized", would be a better way to put it, that my natal Lilith is conj. the Part of War, for the United States.

So, I called Her again, just a half hour ago, and asked Her if I should take her 'vision' to mean that I can't grasp it? That I can't grasp the symbology for the degree or is it that Lilith is likely to whip it up?

She replied; "Lilith stirs the pot... vigorously!... And you don't want to be doing that!"

Thus said. I am self banned from ever commenting on matters of "War", pertaining to the United States of America, ever again.

...or for that matter on anything that is associated with anyones' chart for the 15th degree of Virgo.

I urge all, that are reading this, to observe where your own natal Lilith falls and to be so advised as to concerning yourselves and your clients, if you are a professional or give amatuer advice.


...and, btw... I did ask Clarisse last week, after giving a brief description of them, about osc Lilith and Wlademath's Moon, if either of them was that which should be really the one so titled as Lilith [which I already mentioned above..that is, they aren't.] and, or, do either affect anything at all?
Now...I can't recall offhand to which she was referring to, but she said that [which ever one she was in fact talking about] she sees that it does have effect, but it is [possibly...maybe moreover, probably...] an unpredictable "Worm Hole".
She didn't mention what kind of effect though and although, upon my asking, she had once described the manner in which the former planet, now known as, the asteroids do affect [Yes, I thought so, and Clarisse confirmed that the asteroids were at one time a planet and must be given it's due still. That also includes the hierarchy of Planetary rulerships, house rulerships and things akin. The two signs of Sag. and Pisces... Aquarius is ruled by Jupiter, as I deduced...and honestly, it's an easy deduction... Capricorn, expansive Earth...Earth Above Earth... Expansion = Jupiter... and seriously, did anyone believe that 'cold, stern', Saturn was the ruler of; "Empathy for Humanity", lovin' Aquarius? I have an Aquarian Moon, exactly conj. my I.C. ...I should know, that, if I know anything at all about astrology. ... but I digress.] as to be like; "I see worm holes. Opening and closing. Here and then there. Worm holes, opening and closing, opening and closing...here...and then there."

...but the way in which she said it... i have to wonder if she doesn't mean t t that it is actually a "Worm Hole" we're talking about here

..and I just realized that would have to be "Waldemath's moon, she was talking about...!!!


..oh my... hmmmm...!?!!?!
Thank you as always for research and information but I disagree I think the Osc Lilith H13 is the one right titled from my observation she manifest strongly
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

Well, Clarisse is never wrong about what is and what has been...but...

...I may have gotten the wrong impression as to which of those two she was referring to. I'll have to schedule an appointment with her... I did interrupt a reading she was giving for someone this afternoon and said she only picked up the phone as she could see it was a call from me... [made me feel, kinda special...] ...I wouldn't dare press Her twice in the same day...or month if I can absolutely avoid it. [truth is I get maybe two readings a year from her... and a few times a year I ask her for a "mini-reading" ...i.e. 15mins. of Her time... We are friends...known one another almost 11 years as of now. ...and rather close, as I did write that she is a "spiritual confidante" and I know her pretty well...after all i've studied her chart for over ten years. So,even though ewe are good and close, friends...; I acknowledge these readings as a "business transaction" between us. They're not 'Free' ...not all of them, anyways ...and i don't mind a bit paying whatever she charges.. she's the real deal...She's danm good in fact. Saved my life, actually, verifiably ....at least three times these past 11 years.... and what ever she answers with will be what I will believe in and espouse.

Thanks for your input and your gratuitous acknowledgement.
ptv
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