Can planets in Fall or Detriment be peregrine?

Marius Cojoc said:

Probably BobZemco wasn't aware that time about the lastest discoveries on the hairesis doctrine. The sect (hairesis) is based on the special moments (rising, settings, stations etc) that planets make in their heliacal cycles. This is stated by Porphyry in its Introduction. The quadrants, zoidia and places which are preffered by the planets etc are just rejoicing conditions.

In my opinion, you can't make a foundation begining with an astrological branch. It dosen't have sense to me to apply the rules of a horary in a natal chart. The horary will provide only what the natal chart promises and this is not available vice versa.

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BobZemco has not posted on this forum for some time and therefore we cannot have this discussion with him
Nevertheless, to be fair to BobZemco I shall clarify that his response is specifically to a particular question from byjove - as follows

07-23-2013, 05:03 PM
BobZemco
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: On a web-site far, far away...
Posts: 2,129


Re: Strength of Planetary Joys
Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove
So at least a planet can be saved from peregrination with Joy?



No.

Peregrination is part of the Dignity Schema and Peregrine = No Dignity.

A Peregrine Planet has no Dignity, and there is absolutely nothing that can alter that

Marius Cojoc said:

Probably BobZemco wasn't aware that time about the lastest discoveries on the hairesis doctrine. The sect (hairesis) is based on the special moments (risings, settings, stations etc) that planets make in their heliacal cycles. This is stated by Porphyry in its Introduction. The quadrants, zoidia and places which are preffered by the planets etc are just rejoicing conditions.

In my opinion, you can't make a foundation begining with an astrological branch. It dosen't have sense to me to apply the rules of a horary in a natal chart.

For Poy: http://www.projecthindsight.com/images/TablesPDFs/PIC-Solar Cycle-oba.pdf

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By the way,I did at the time question Bobzemco's comments by highlighting inconsistencies when I made the following post

07-24-2013, 12:50 PM
JUPITERASC
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,561


Re: Strength of Planetary Joys

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco
I previously addressed one component of a Planet's condition, and that is whether the Planet is Fortunate or Unfortunate.

Another component is Sect, which tells you how capable a Planet is to perform the task it has been given in the chart.

The Sect doctrine is confusing, and the Sect Ruler doctrine is totally FUBAR, but this is what to look at:

Sun -- is not automatically in-Sect in a Day Chart. Sun is in-Sect only if one of the following conditions is met:

1] Sun in 10th, 11th or 12th Houses = Masculine Quadrant
2] If Sun is not in Quadrant I, then Sun must be in the 7th or 9th Houses, which are in the Feminine Quadrant, but those Houses are Masculine.
3] If Sun is in the 8th House, then Sun must be in a Masculine Sign.

1] Sun in 10th, 11th or 12th Houses = Masculine Quadrant
BUT
12th House is Cadent
SO Sun is modified regarding ability to act
so being in a Masculine Quadrant in that case does not exclude Sun from from being 'unfortunate' when Sun is in 12th
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco
1] Sun in 10th, 11th or 12th Houses = Masculine Quadrant
2] If Sun is not in Quadrant I, then Sun must be in the 7th or 9th Houses, which are in the Feminine Quadrant, but those Houses are Masculine.
3] If Sun is in the 8th House, then Sun must be in a Masculine Sign.

In order for Sun to be in Hayz, Sun must meet two of the previous conditions.

1] Sun in Quadrant I and in 11th House
2] Sun in Quadrant I and in 10th or 12th Houses and in Masculine Sign
3] Sun in 7th House and Masculine Sign
4] Sun in 9th House and Masculine Sign.

Sun can never be in Hayz in the 8th House.

When Sun is
2] Sun in Quadrant I and in 10th or 12th Houses and in Masculine Sign
and so in Hayz
and therefore 'considered very competent to act'
YET
12th house is 'unfortunate' and modifies ANY planet's ability to act
SO
Sun is not very competent to act when in 12th and in Masculine Sign
yet Sun is in Hayz DESPITE not being very competent to act
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco
A Planet in-Sect is competent to perform the assigned tasks (Wealth, Health, Children, Death, Relationships etc).

A Planet in Hazy is very competent

Yet an In-Sect Sun in 12th in Masculine sign is nevertheless Cadent and so is NOT very competent to act
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco
A Planet not in-Sect is barely competent, and a Planet Out-of-Sect is totally incompetent,

So 'a Planet not in-sect' is a completely different category from 'a Planet Out-of-Sect'
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco
and again that's modified slightly by Degree/Quadrant

Such as Sun in 12th in a masculine sign
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco
An Unfortunate Planet that is Out-of-Sect is like a freaking Greek Tragedy.

A Fortunate Planet Out-of-Sect is like Charlie Chaplin, or Peter Sellars in those Pink Panther films, or Chris Rock in those Jackie Chan films. Or what's the British expression: "It's a fair cop" -- getting the right result the wrong way

So Sun in 12th in Masculine Sign is a Fortunate Planet and In-Sect yet somehow unable to act - the film analogies are excellent - which film is that?

QUOTE
'….My own personal theory about this is that the Medieval astrologers kind of made a mistake in treating the two sect-related rejoicing conditions as being on par with the primary consideration, which is just whether it is a day or night chart, and if the planet in question is of the sect in favor or contrary to the sect in favor......' Chris Brennan


'…...It is not that the other two conditions are completely unimportant or don't relate to a planet's sect status at all, but it is just that they are far less important than the primary condition, and that is why it is the primary thing, and oftentimes the only thing, that is emphasized in the Hellenistic delineation texts.

But then in the Medieval tradition you get the development of the concept of hayz, which essentially treats all three conditions as equal, which, I would argue, is a mistake......' Chris Brennan


'….I think that this is why the concept becomes less and less important as the western tradition progresses though, not because sect is useless, but because too much emphasis was being placed on two additional minor conditions whose status had been raised up to the detriment of the overall technique.....' Chris Brennan

Tsmall stated:

Clinton, you are missing much if you only subscribe to Ptolemy's dignities...and if you don't consider that even Lily gives in his own table several ways to mitigate the perergrine status. Including being in mutual rectption by either domicile or exaltation. Most ancient texts will say if such and such planet is dignified or recieved...with received (since every planet is recieved in some way) implying an that there is an aspect involved. Which is likely where Tyl got his noting of relabling unaspected as being peregrine. Peregrine planets depend solely upon their rulers, and if their rulers are in good condition and regard them, then that will modify the delineation. There is no need to chase our tails any further about it.

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Most practicing traditional astrologers today use the Egyptian terms and Dorothean triplicities...but that is neither here nor there.

AE, I'm sorry you took offense to forum rules and/or traditions. Clearly you don't think they should apply to you, and I applaud your confidence in stating that what I read, because it does not agree with your interpretation, is absolutely incorrect. Best wishes to you, as I won't be engaging with you in the future. I made an attempt to explain and include (Venus is my ASC ruler) which has clearly been rejected.

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PLEASE, did he say PLEASE ? I have seen the greatest of astrologers on various forums get trapped under the Mercury Rx, and it is in the degree presently of where it goes Rx. Of Course the rules apply to me!

And yes, like everyone else on the planet I get trapped in Mercury's reverse to, and every astrologer but one has made mistakes!


And he was:

There are malicious astrologers who just can not quite grasp what we are supposed to be doing here: someday they will evolve perhaps after symbolicly they drive a few nails into the astrologers they they abhor wrists.

NEW LIVING TRANSLATION

Luke 21:25
“And there will be strange signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides.

The student of this astrologer, Luke who wrote this, IF the Church has not adulterated the words of the greatest astrologer who ever lived NEVER verbally lied, unlike most you will encounter!

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Marius Cojoc said:

Probably BobZemco wasn't aware that time about the lastest discoveries on the hairesis doctrine. The sect (hairesis) is based on the special moments (risings, settings, stations etc) that planets make in their heliacal cycles. This is stated by Porphyry in its Introduction. The quadrants, zoidia and places which are preffered by the planets etc are just rejoicing conditions.

Click to expand...

While I don't have the threads/posts to hand, I can unequivocally state that BobZemco was very much aware of risings, settings, stations, orientality, occidentality...his above quoted post was to point out what we have I believe been saying on this thread for some time now. One needs to look at the entire condition of the planet before one can make a judgement about how capable it is to bring about what it promises.

For purposes of this thread, there are two sentences from the above quote that most pertain.

BobZemco said:

A Peregrine Planet has no Dignity, and there is absolutely nothing that can alter that.

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In its essence, this is a true statement. A planet either has dignity in the place it finds itself, or it does not. If it does not have dignity by exaltation, domicile, bound, decan or triplicity it is not in any of its familiar places. If it is further in its detriment that compounds the problem. If it is in its depression and peregrine it is even worse.

BobZemco said:

Reception will either shackle or enable.

The only thing worse than being Peregrine is being Peregrine and not received, because that places severe restrictions on the Planet....effectively imprisoned.

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This is why every ancient text, including Valens, clearly states something along the lines of "if a planet is dignified or received." What is not always explicity pointed out (because the authors assumed that those reading would understand) is that "received" needs some sort of regard (aspect by sign.)

Every other rejoicing condition of a planet, whether by accidental dignity, being posited in its house of joy, being in the place of a sectmate, being in a strengthened state by solar phase, stationing direct...being regarded by benefics or assembled with benefics, having malefics turned away, being in its proper facing of the Sun, being in a sign and quadrant and degree that agrees with its sect, ect., all of these planetary conditions are important, because they will tell us if the peregrine planet will be able to affect its purpose, and taking them all together...how it will do so. Planetary condition describes the totality of the planet, of which dignity or lack thereof is just one piece.

Marius Cojoc said:

In my opinion, you can't make a foundation begining with an astrological branch. It dosen't have sense to me to apply the rules of a horary in a natal chart.

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I am uncertain of your meaning here. Are you implying that the very idea of peregrination is solely a term for horary astrology? If so, I would have to disagree...

tsmall said:

I am uncertain of your meaning here. Are you implying that the very idea of peregrination is solely a term for horary astrology? If so, I would have to disagree...

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AquarianEssence's referral to Sahl prompted me to purchase the Dykes translation Works of Sahl and Masha'Allah, understanding that they both take most of their instruction from Dorotheus.

quote is from pp. 42 and 44

Concerning the weakness of the planets

Their injuries are in the birth and the questions, and they are of ten types...

Eighthly, if the planet is in a house in which it has no testimony: no house and no nobility and no triplicity; and if the planet is a stranger...

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The above is the translation of the Arabic (bolded emphasis mine,) and the below, ibid, is of the Latin

The eighth, that a planet would be in a domicile in which it did not have testimony (that is, some dignity): that is, that it is not in its own domicile or own exaltation or triplicity, and so on, and that it is peregrine...

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poyi said:

Rising, Setting and station are these similar way to what we do with assessing fixed star in paran? Sorry I am very new with traditional methods.

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Po yi, I don't think so, though I as always could be wrong. My understanding of rising and setting in this context is rising from or setting into the beams of the Sun. Are you following? Station is easy and you already know. A planet is "stationing" when it is turning retrograde or direct.

The inferior planets (Moon, Mercury and Venus) will approach the Sun, and when they get to within 15* are considered "setting into the beams." When they pass the Sun after conjunction by 15*, they are rising from the beams.

The superior planets, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, are overtaken by the Sun (because the Sun moves more quickly), so once the Sun approaches within 15* they are said to be "setting" into the beams, and once the Sun has separated from the conjunction and moves away by 15* they are said to be "rising" from the beams.

Each of these phasis (phases? whatever the plural would be) are significant and carry their own delineation of how the planet will act.

Fixed stars (parans) rise, culminate, set and anti-culminate, but that is a different thing (JUPITERASC and Monk know better about these things.)

tsmall said:

Po yi, I don't think so, though I as always could be wrong. My understanding of rising and setting in this context is rising from or setting into the beams of the Sun. Are you following? Station is easy and you already know. A planet is "stationing" when it is turning retrograde or direct.

The inferior planets (Moon, Mercury and Venus) will approach the Sun, and when they get to within 15* are considered "setting into the beams." When they pass the Sun after conjunction by 15*, they are rising from the beams.

The superior planets, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, are overtaken by the Sun (because the Sun moves more quickly), so once the Sun approaches within 15* they are said to be "setting" into the beams, and once the Sun has separated from the conjunction and moves away by 15* they are said to be "rising" from the beams.

Each of these phasis (phases? whatever the plural would be) are significant and carry their own delineation of how the planet will act.

Fixed stars (parans) rise, culminate, set and anti-culminate, but that is a different thing (JUPITERASC and Monk know better about these things.)

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I am assuming... the concept of the setting/rising to the sun and the parans for fixed stars should be the same. But one is to the Sun, while parans is to the ecliptic hmm maybe.

Thank you for spending time explaining to me. I still have a lot to learn about fixed stars as well. I only have a free report from Brady's site and her textbooks but no practical skills on application. I usual get the books first and worry about them later I have a life time to learn, I will crack them up one day.

JUPITERASC said:

So Sun in 12th in Masculine Sign is a Fortunate Planet and In-Sect yet somehow unable to act

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I believe you are missing the point. The point being that we must take in all the possible permutations of what a 12th house Sun, in hayz, could mean...and this is coming from someone with a 12th house Sun in fall and in hayz.

Sun in 12th meeting all the conditions of sect (Masculine sign, degree and quadrant) is a benefic. What do benefics in the 12th do? They protect you from the implications of the 12th house. Most importantly, they protect you from your secret enemies, and they protect you from self undoing, hospitalization, imprisonment, slavery, and even possibly large beasts. This will be even more so if the Sun in 12 is in the ascending sign, because the Sun regards or at least agrees with the ASC.

Planets in houses are more important than house rulers in deciding the here and now of how things are.

Being cadent will affect the house(s) the cadent planet rules, so the houses with Leo, and potentially Aries (because as Marius has already pointed out, house rulers are stewards and exaltation rulers are...da bomb) on the cusp will be very much affected by the Sun's cadency...but that does not negate the power of the Sun to perform where he is posited. Sun may not be able to control what he ought to rule, but he is able to affect his current circumstance.

Edit to add, if the Sun, though cadent, is received by and in aspect to a planet which regards the houses he rules, then the planet regarding will be able to affect for the Sun (depending on the totality of the Sun's condition, including aspects from other benefics/malefics.) This will be focused by the regarding planet that is in effect reflecting the light of the Sun and acting as a filter for him...and this would be yet another reason why we need to see an entire chart before we can even begin to judge it.

msg deleted

poyi said:

I am assuming... the concept of the setting/rising to the sun and the parans for fixed stars should be the same. But one is to the Sun, while parans is to the ecliptic hmm maybe.

Thank you for spending time explaining to me. I still have a lot to learn about fixed stars as well. I only have a free report from Brady's site and her textbooks but no practical skills on application. I usual get the books first and worry about them later I have a life time to learn, I will crack them up one day.

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Bernadette Brady offers useful insights and complete explanation regarding PARANS via a series of three free lectures

VISUAL ASTROLOGY LECTURE PART 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Cao-fyS3Ao

BERNADETTE BRADY VISUAL ASTROLOGY LECTURE
PART 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc7-sUt5d9w


BERNADETTE BRADY VISUAL ASTROLOGY LECTURE
PART 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qbi5djL1ZY

QUOTE FROM A SKYSCRIPT THREAD http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewt...ys=0&postorder=asc&highlight=hairesis&start=0

'…..One might attempt to summarise the development of haïrésis:

1. In Hellenistic astrology haïrésis , a reflection of the most evident astronomical phenomenon of night and day, was a major, if not overriding principle of horoscopic astrology with two major schools of elemental rulerships by sect that have survived in practice: Dorotheus of Sidon and Klaudios Ptolomaios, one major difference between the two concerning the planet Mars.....'

2. In Mediaeval astrology secta (Latin) became less important. Dorotheus' system predominated.....' posted by Lihin



'….3. In Renaissance astrology, the importance of sect declined further and Professor (of mathematics) Dr. (of medicine) Jean-Baptiste Morin proposed a revision of the system. Herr Professor Johannes Schöner also developed a slightly revised system.

4. In Modern astrology, the astrological application of sect has mostly been abandoned altogether. ….' posted by Lihin

Tsmall and blessed Forum members,

I must say that have you ever been suddenly awoke in a situation that you were very happen the person who cared for you woke you as you may have been in danger?

Well this very thread has woke up my horary consciousness as prior like many horary artists I had overlooked what Lilly and other adept writers had tried to convey just as many Biblical scholars we are aware haven't quite noted all of the pro astrology lore and references in Christian documentation.

For I had a horary put upon me recently where the Lord of the matter according to Lilly was Peregrine and unless Tsmall hadn't have woke me up, I would have not have given the mutual reception between Mars(quarry) and Mercury(Large animals).

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=511290

That really spiked up this horary that was asked under a Mercury Rx!
.
PDF drawing (for subscribers)Save default setting Back to the chart selectionAdditional tables (PDF) with transits

I spent some time looking through more ancient texts to see if I could find the origin. The earliest I've found so far is 2nd century. Vettius Valens uses the word, αλλοδαπός, translated by Riley as alien. "If malefics are in conjunction with or in opposition to Accomplishment, when this Place is not at an angle, and if they are alien to the nativity and in alien signs and degrees, they then cause destruction of property, even if the Lot of Fortune and its ruler are favorably situated." This is found in the Greek on page 118. The word means alien, foreigner or foreign national.

Ptolemy, from the same era, in his Tetrabiblos, uses alien to describe disjunct signs, stating, "" Disjunct" and" alien" are the names applied to those divisions of the zodiac which have none whatever of the aforesaid familiarities with One another. These are the Ones which belong neither to the class of commanding or obeying, beholding or of equal power, and furthermore they are found to be entirely without share in the four aforesaid aspects, opposition, trine, quartile, and sextile, and are either One or five signs apart; for those which are One sign apart are as it were averted from One another and, though they are two, bound the angle of One, and those that are five signs apart divide the whole circle into unequal parts. while the other aspects make an equal division of the perimeter."

It should be noted that Aries is disjucnt, according to modern definition, to Virgo, yet they behold one another, holding the antiscia degrees, considered of equal power by Ptolemy. Firmicus Maternus taught that signs 2, 6, 8 and 12 distant are alien, those that don't make a major aspect to the ascendant (or sign in question). This is because they can't "see" one another, are passive blind spots or ableptum. Applying this to Leo, Virgo is the 2nd, Capricorn is the 6th, Pisces 8th and Cancer 12th sign from Leo, all considered peregrine if Sun is there, for the most part. The section of Virgo and Capricorn where Sun has dignity is where it is close enough to "see", when there. When at the end of his own sign he can see into the 1st decan of Virgo and also at the very beginning, he can look over his shoulder while opposing Aquarius to see the final face of Capricorn.

I think the idea of a planet being peregrine came from this idea that the sign isn't making a major aspect to the home sign or ascendant, at least during the 2nd century. Yet, the solstice points played a special role, and all the opposites where the contra-antiscia are found. I've had the privilege of giving birth to my Sun contra-antiscion and my 2nd husband is my anti-scion. Yes, friction (18-19Aries Moon-Sun antiscion 11Virgo Sun) but it is completely different than the friction with my 1st husband of 28 years, Aquarius. I guess that makes me the yod in the triad we form.

I suspect this originated in Babylonian astrology.

AquarianEssence said:

I spent some time looking through more ancient texts to see if I could find the origin. The earliest I've found so far is 2nd century. Vettius Valens uses the word, αλλοδαπός, translated by Riley as alien. "If malefics are in conjunction with or in opposition to Accomplishment, when this Place is not at an angle, and if they are alien to the nativity and in alien signs and degrees, they then cause destruction of property, even if the Lot of Fortune and its ruler are favorably situated." This is found in the Greek on page 118. The word means alien, foreigner or foreign national.

Ptolemy, from the same era, in his Tetrabiblos, uses alien to describe disjunct signs, stating, "" Disjunct" and" alien" are the names applied to those divisions of the zodiac which have none whatever of the aforesaid familiarities with One another. These are the Ones which belong neither to the class of commanding or obeying, beholding or of equal power, and furthermore they are found to be entirely without share in the four aforesaid aspects, opposition, trine, quartile, and sextile, and are either One or five signs apart; for those which are One sign apart are as it were averted from One another and, though they are two, bound the angle of One, and those that are five signs apart divide the whole circle into unequal parts. while the other aspects make an equal division of the perimeter."

It should be noted that Aries is disjucnt, according to modern definition, to Virgo, yet they behold one another, holding the antiscia degrees, considered of equal power by Ptolemy. Firmicus Maternus taught that signs 2, 6, 8 and 12 distant are alien, those that don't make a major aspect to the ascendant (or sign in question). This is because they can't "see" one another, are passive blind spots or ableptum. Applying this to Leo, Virgo is the 2nd, Capricorn is the 6th, Pisces 8th and Cancer 12th sign from Leo, all considered peregrine if Sun is there, for the most part. The section of Virgo and Capricorn where Sun has dignity is where it is close enough to "see", when there. When at the end of his own sign he can see into the 1st decan of Virgo and also at the very beginning, he can look over his shoulder while opposing Aquarius to see the final face of Capricorn.

I think the idea of a planet being peregrine came from this idea that the sign isn't making a major aspect to the home sign or ascendant, at least during the 2nd century. Yet, the solstice points played a special role, and all the opposites where the contra-antiscia are found. I've had the privilege of giving birth to my Sun contra-antiscion and my 2nd husband is my anti-scion. Yes, friction (18-19Aries Moon-Sun antiscion 11Virgo Sun) but it is completely different than the friction with my 1st husband of 28 years, Aquarius. I guess that makes me the yod in the triad we form.

I suspect this originated in Babylonian astrology.

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QUOTE from Professor Mark Riley, California State University

'….. Vettius Valens' Anthologiae is the longest extant astrological work from antiquity.

It is unique in several respects:
the author was a practicing astrologer:

the work includes more than 100 authentic horoscopes of Valens' clients or associates,
including his own, which is used as an example many times throughout the work
the work also includes tables and the description of algorithms used by astrologers and mathematicians.....'



It is undisputed that Valens chronicled the astrological techniques of his predecessors
who lived at least three hundred years prior to his time

AND

the work of many of the authors chronicled by Valens has not survived the centuries

Therefore there is no SURVIVING evidence for the actual origin of the idea of 'peregrine'

Nevertheless it is possible to speculate, as you have done, regarding those possible origins.

By the way, since there are often newcomers to astrology reading this thread
and for the purposes of clarity for those newcomers,
who may be unaware of the fact
Traditional Astrology does not recognise the 'yod'

Oh, you have read through the Babylonian cuneiform? I've only skimmed the translated Mul Apin. I'm sure you are right that none of the ancients used the word yod to mean an aspectual configuration but Firmicus Maternus and any of the others that refer to the signs 6 and 8 distant from the ascendant or any other point are certainly referring to this configuration, named or not. If it makes you feel better to chastise me once again, welcome to it. But I don't see how it benefits anyone to censor me to that extreme, traditional thread or not. Also, if what I have pointed out here contains what grew to mean peregrine, then what was given to them has survived, through their work. Have a lovely day.

AquarianEssence said:

Oh, you have read through the Babylonian cuneiform? I've only skimmed the translated Mul Apin. I'm sure you are right that none of the ancients used the word yod to mean an aspectual configuration but Firmicus Maternus and any of the others that refer to the signs 6 and 8 distant from the ascendant or any other point are certainly referring to this configuration, named or not. If it makes you feel better to chastise me once again, welcome to it. But I don't see how it benefits anyone to censor me to that extreme, traditional thread or not. Also, if what I have pointed out here contains what grew to mean peregrine, then what was given to them has survived, through their work. Have a lovely day.

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On the traditional forum only traditional astrology is discussed - that's the reason it's the traditional forum.

There are other areas of the forum where so-called yod's may be discussed.

Because no traditional astrologer has ever named 'the yod' therefore it is non-traditional

I mention that solely for the benefit of newcomers to the traditional forum who may be reading this thread and could mistakenly believe 'the yod' to be a traditional aspect. It is not.

P.S.

QUOTE FROM FORUM MAIN PAGE

Traditional Astrology
For discussions on Traditional Astrology only.
(Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras.
Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction)
and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids.
The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction.
Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)

AquarianEssence said:

I spent some time looking through more ancient texts to see if I could find the origin. The earliest I've found so far is 2nd century. Vettius Valens uses the word, αλλοδαπός, translated by Riley as alien. "If malefics are in conjunction with or in opposition to Accomplishment, when this Place is not at an angle, and if they are alien to the nativity and in alien signs and degrees, they then cause destruction of property, even if the Lot of Fortune and its ruler are favorably situated." This is found in the Greek on page 118. The word means alien, foreigner or foreign national.

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Conflation of two disparate ideas, likely brought on by variances in word/language meanings. If a planet is "alien" to a sign it rules, as in it is in a place of aversion to that sign (note, whole sign, not house) then it has no ability to directly oversee the significations of that place. Valens, I belive, refered to "Acomplishment" as Fortuna, though there is some considerable discussion that Valens for political reasons often obfuscated his meaning. For example, one could easily infer from your quote "If malefics are in conjunction with or in opposition to Accomplishment" as a reference, according to Valens' word usage, to need to replace Accomplishment with the Lot of Fortune. However, he (Valens) has also suggested that the place of "Accomplishment" is the 11th sign to Fortune, which also makes sense, as it is the 10th that initiates (cardnal house if not sign) and the 11th (succedent sign/house) where what is initated is brought to fruition...and of course it is destroyed or likely destroyed in the cadent house from the angle.

AquarianEssence said:

Ptolemy, from the same era, in his Tetrabiblos, uses alien to describe disjunct signs, stating, "" Disjunct" and" alien" are the names applied to those divisions of the zodiac which have none whatever of the aforesaid familiarities with One another. These are the Ones which belong neither to the class of commanding or obeying, beholding or of equal power, and furthermore they are found to be entirely without share in the four aforesaid aspects, opposition, trine, quartile, and sextile, and are either One or five signs apart; for those which are One sign apart are as it were averted from One another and, though they are two, bound the angle of One, and those that are five signs apart divide the whole circle into unequal parts. while the other aspects make an equal division of the perimeter."

It should be noted that Aries is disjucnt, according to modern definition, to Virgo, yet they behold one another, holding the antiscia degrees, considered of equal power by Ptolemy. Firmicus Maternus taught that signs 2, 6, 8 and 12 distant are alien, those that don't make a major aspect to the ascendant (or sign in question). This is because they can't "see" one another, are passive blind spots or ableptum. Applying this to Leo, Virgo is the 2nd, Capricorn is the 6th, Pisces 8th and Cancer 12th sign from Leo, all considered peregrine if Sun is there, for the most part. The section of Virgo and Capricorn where Sun has dignity is where it is close enough to "see", when there. When at the end of his own sign he can see into the 1st decan of Virgo and also at the very beginning, he can look over his shoulder while opposing Aquarius to see the final face of Capricorn.

I think the idea of a planet being peregrine came from this idea that the sign isn't making a major aspect to the home sign or ascendant, at least during the 2nd century.

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You and Noel Tyl agree, though Tyl extrapolated the concept to confuse unaspected with aspecting a planets' signs ruled by either domicile or exaltation. There is a difference between a planet being "alien" to the signs/houses it rules, and a planet having no dignity in the place it finds itself. Alien in the examples you give from Ptolemy, and "alien" or "foreign" or wandering, lost, peregrine, have more to do with being in a familiar place, giving testimony, and reception. Thanks to this conversation, I did purchase Dyke's translation of Sahl. Dykes makes a very pertinent and interesting point in that back in the day, the idea of a planet being in a place it has some dignity gave it "testimony" in that place. This is more of a religious or judical concept, in that we need to consider what belonging in a religious way ment. If a planet could not provide "testimony" that it was in a place wherein it had some basic agreement with the idiologies of the natives, it was completly on its own. Not having "testimony" in its location, and not being able to "regard" the houses/signs it owns/rules are two definitions of "alien" that are completely different.

AquarianEssence said:

I suspect this originated in Babylonian astrology.

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I suspect you are correct. I would even venture that it had its origins prior to Babylonian astrology.

AquarianEssence said:

I'm sure you are right that none of the ancients used the word yod to mean an aspectual configuration but Firmicus Maternus and any of the others that refer to the signs 6 and 8 distant from the ascendant or any other point are certainly referring to this configuration, named or not. If it makes you feel better to chastise me once again, welcome to it. But I don't see how it benefits anyone to censor me to that extreme, traditional thread or not. Also, if what I have pointed out here contains what grew to mean peregrine, then what was given to them has survived, through their work.

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It wasn't a yod, though we can almost get there through understanding what aversion actually means. No one intends to censor you (which I have made clear in the past, and which you still choose to ignore) but when we are discussing traditional methods on the traditional forum, well, if we cannot respect the ideology then we cannot find common ground. A yod connotates a specific aspect pattern that is not, and will never be found in traditional delineation, with a specific planet or point as the apex. That just...doesn't work, because it is a modern psychological idea that has no basis nor interpretive value in exploring traditional methods. Discussion is fine, but there must needs be mutual respect and understanding that the discussion is bound by parameters in certain places in order for the discussion to continue. If you feel you are being censored, then please feel free to start another thread in a more appropriate forum.

hmm so what is a peregrine planet supposed to mean? is it a karmic debt, or a strength? because I know that sometimes weaknesses can be turned around and be used as a strength too... but I don't know if it is always the case. Say, an Unaspected sun. or a Mars in Cancer. What is the function really??

Wisher1996 said:

hmm so what is a peregrine planet supposed to mean? is it a karmic debt, or a strength? because I know that sometimes weaknesses can be turned around and be used as a strength too... but I don't know if it is always the case. Say, an Unaspected sun. or a Mars in Cancer. What is the function really??

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Hello Wisher, welcome to the traditional astrology forum.

Wisher1996 said:

What is a perigrine planet supposed to mean?

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It is a planet with no essential dignity where it is posited in the chart--not domicile, exaltation, term/bound, decan or face.

Wisher1996 said:

is it a karmic debt?

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As this is the traditional forum we don't deal much in the concept of karmic debt. So no, that is not what it is.

Wisher1996 said:

or a strength? because I know that sometimes weaknesses can be turned around and be used as a strength too... but I don't know if it is always the case.

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It is a debility, but it can and often is turned around to be used as a strength too. Perigrine planets are in territory completely alien to them. Lacking essential dignity is basically lacking any resources handed to them. They have to work for everything they get. They are wiley, cunning, shrewd, and usually will find a way to use their environment the best they can, depending on the nature of the planet in question, it's condition, and the condition of its ruler--also what if any aspects it receives. As in, is there another planet or planets helping or impeding it, and if so which and how.

Wisher1996 said:

Say, an Unaspected sun

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Just because the Sun is unaspected does not make it peregrine. An unaspected Sun in Leo is in domicile, and in Aries is exalted. The Sun in any of its other dignities would not be peregrine either.

Wisher1996 said:

or a Mars in Cancer

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Mars in the first 7* of Cancer is in fall but not peregrine. So debilitated but with resources at his disposal.

Wisher1996 said:

What is the function really??

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Well, define "function." Because the function is just like the function of every other planet in the chart. Peregrine is an adjective that gives connotative meaning in chart delineation. And, just like other traditional terms, there is a specific meaning attached to this particular adjective that needs to be read in conjunction with the rest of the chart.

If you'd like to see a chart with a true peregrine Sun that is also completely unaspected...

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66443