Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

david starling

Well-known member
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

I was already hooked on my identity per tropical astrology and the concept of a bright new future thanks to the Aquarian Age concept in 1972. A group of sideralists, followers of Cyril Fagan's school of modern siderealism, came on a radio show that had what came to be known as a "New Age" format; and, they had a rather vociferous complaint that Fagan himself had voiced and written about that really made sense to me: The Age of Aquarius is SIDEREAL, not tropical. Hey, tropicalists, leave our Age alone!!!
Without going into the astronomy of the matter, I'll just say, they appeared to be absolutely correct. It didn't matter a whit, however, because tropicalists were, and are, operating on what I like to call the "Tinkerbell Theory" of how the Ages work: See, a faery, or perhaps a flock of faeries, are going to fly around the Earth and sprinkle the Aquarian stardust, spilling out from the pitcher held by the figure in the constellation known as Aquarius, all around the world. So, while the Zodiacal constellations aren't used to locate the tropical Signs, they do have extraordinary power and authority when it comes to this one phenomenon.
Well, the Tinkerbell Theory just wasn't working for me, and I had to agree with Mr. Fagan, with one very significant reservation: It's true that the Ages as they were, and still are, being conventionally argued about, are manifestly sidereal. But, [IMO], that in no way precludes the very real possibility that there's ANOTHER way to determine them in a tropical fashion.
So, my question for Modern astrologers of the tropical zodiac is, have you absolutely ruled out this possibility? And, if so, can you explain why?

This is intended as a laidback discussion, not an acrimonious debate. Logical thinking would be appreciated, but isn't a requirement. :biggrin:
No diagrams please, text only. It's not all about the astronomical mechanics, it's about whether, in theory, there should or should not be a tropical version of the Ages.
 
Last edited:

Cary2

Banned
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

I was already hooked on my identity per tropical astrology and the concept of a bright new future thanks to the Aquarian Age concept in 1972. A group of sideralists, followers of Cyril Fagan's school of modern siderealism, came on a radio show that had what came to be known as a "New Age" format; and, they had a rather vociferous complaint that Fagan himself had voiced and written about that really made sense to me: The Age of Aquarius is SIDEREAL, not tropical. Hey, tropicalists, leave our Age alone!!!
Without going into the astronomy of the matter, I'll just say, they appeared to be absolutely correct. It didn't matter a whit, however, because tropicalists were, and are, operating on what I like to call the "Tinkerbell Theory" of how the Ages work: See, a faery, or perhaps a flock of faeries, are going to fly around the Earth and sprinkle the Aquarian stardust, spilling out from the pitcher held by the figure in the constellation known as Aquarius, all around the world. So, while the Zodiacal constellations aren't used to locate the tropical Signs, they do have extraordinary power and authority when it comes to this one phenomenon.
Well, the Tinkerbell Theory just wasn't working for me, and I had to agree with Mr. Fagan, with one very significant reservation: It's true that the Ages as they were, and still are, being conventionally argued about, are manifestly sidereal. But, [IMO], that in no way precludes the very real possibility that there's ANOTHER way to determine them in a tropical fashion.
So, my question for Modern astrologers of the tropical zodiac is, have you absolutely ruled out this possibility? And, if so, can you explain why?

This is intended as a laidback discussion, not an acrimonious debate. Logical thinking would be appreciated, but isn't a requirement. :biggrin:
No diagrams please, text only. It's not about the astronomical mechanics, it's about whether there should or should not be a tropical version of the Ages.

I will change to Sidereal Astrology when the evidence convinces me that way, but not all Tropicalists accept the Ages Theory just as not all astrologers use the Sabian Symbols. Most Tropicalists are that way because it is predominant in their geographical region; they probably haven't entertained the Sidereal concept.

The Tropical zodiac begins based on a well-defined astronomical concept and calculation. The Sidereal zodiac begins with legend or guesswork or fairy correspondence.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

I will change to Sidereal Astrology when the evidence convinces me that way, but not all Tropicalists accept the Ages Theory just as not all astrologers use the Sabian Symbols. Most Tropicalists are that way because it is predominant in their geographical region; they probably haven't entertained the Sidereal concept.

The Tropical zodiac begins based on a well-defined astronomical concept and calculation. The Sidereal zodiac begins with legend or guesswork or fairy correspondence.

Thanks Cary. I added one word, too late to be included in the quote. I do have Merc retro, so I go back and revise after examining what I wrote. :biggrin:
That word was "only"--it's not ONLY about the astronomy, but many are entirely unfamiliar with the celestial mechanics of the sidereal Ages. If you can set aside the uncertainty of exactly where the 12 equal sidereal Sign-boundaries should be located, there is a well-defined method for determining just where the sidereal Age Indicator is positioned in a sidereal chart, and about its rate of transit. The Ages (both sidereal and tropical in my view, but conventionally only sidereal), put the phenomenon known as "Precession" to work in a meaningful way.
So, you're right that many, if not most, modern tropicalists are uninformed about how the Ages concept came about, or how it works sidereally. And therefore, would be unable to offer an opinion as to whether it has a place in the tropical paradigm. Sabian Symbols are of another order altogether. The Ages are purely astrological, using transiting, measured points along the zodiacal circle as a significators, like the Lunar Nodes, for example.
 
Last edited:

david starling

Well-known member
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

It might help if I frame the Age Indicator as the counterpart of the Ascendant. Notice their rate of movement through the Signs, one by far the fastest, the other by far the slowest. One extremely personal, the other shared by all.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Cary, is it meaningful to you, that Jung risked his credibility within the modern scientific community, to both champion astrology as a sort of "map" of the psyche, and the Ages concept as being of major importance?
 

Cary2

Banned
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Cary, is it meaningful to you, that Jung risked his credibility within the modern scientific community, to both champion astrology as a sort of "map" of the psyche, and the Ages concept as being of major importance?

I honor Jung, and I find him interesting, but I don't put that much weight on his theories. He certainly risked his reputation to investigate the occult, but I cite the stubborn disputes among astrologers as the guiding indicator in controversies. His input is not a weighty factor to me. Historians are impressed with Freud as a thinker, but they are less kind to Jung who they tend to regard as "fuzzy".
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

I'm not only including an Age-indicator in tropical Chart-readings, I also use the "Mean" position (which can vary significantly from the "True" position), to identify the Age Generations. Just like we use the Outermosts for "generational" purposes. The tropical Age method I'm using is based on Precession, like the sidereal, has an Age-degree change every 58.1 years, and Direct-motion (unlike the Retrograde-motion of the sidereal method). There was an Age-degree change in 1975 according to the Mean setting, and another will occur in 2033.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Okay. If you dismiss the once vaunted Ages as purely fuzzy-minded speculation, you wouldn't be able to offer your opinion on whether there are both tropical and sidereal Ages of any astrological importance. We'll just have to [ATD]. :biggrin:
 
Last edited:

david starling

Well-known member
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Gotta say it--[IMO], it's fuzzy-minded NOT to include the Ages as vital to understanding the context of a Chart.
Why dismiss Precession as a unimportant part of the whole equation?
 
Last edited:

petosiris

Banned
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

The Tropical zodiac begins based on a well-defined astronomical concept and calculation. The Sidereal zodiac begins with legend or guesswork or fairy correspondence.

Hi, do you use the tropical zodiac at the Equator and do you reverse it for the south?
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Not seeing a problem with using it at the Equator. The tropical Equinoctial-sign 1st points are at the intersection of the Celestial Equator and the Ecliptic. Doesn't have to mean Spring or Fall.
 

petosiris

Banned
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Not seeing a problem with using it at the Equator. The tropical Equinoctial-sign 1st points are at the intersection of the Celestial Equator and the Ecliptic. Doesn't have to mean Spring or Fall.

Oh, it doesn't matter, who cares about spring or fall. Nothing to do with astronomy, astrology or our daily lives anyways. :sideways:
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Oh, it doesn't matter, who cares about spring or fall. Nothing to do with astronomy, astrology or our daily lives anyways. :sideways:

Tropical astrology isn't weather-based. In Coastal California, hard to know WHAT season it is based on the weather. Tropical is all about astronomy as it applies to astrology, and to our daily mundane lives.
 
Last edited:

david starling

Well-known member
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Astronomers themselves measure along the Celestial Equator instead of the Ecliptic. They use its intersection with the Ecliptic to locate their hourly divisions.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Tropical astrology is ALL about astronomy, astrology, and our daily lives. But if it makes someone feel better to think otherwise, doesn't matter. :biggrin:
 

petosiris

Banned
Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Tropical astrology isn't weather-based. In Coastal California, hard to know WHAT season it is based on the weather. Tropical is all about astronomy as it applies to astrology, and to our daily mundane lives.

Are you saying that the average temperature in August is the same as in January? :unsure:
 
Top