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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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Unread 03-01-2018, 09:43 PM
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Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

Hellenistic Astrologers, I would imagine, had been exchanging a lot of information and technicalities with Arabic Astrologers.

How much then, have they inherited and integrated Arabic Astrological principles into theirs and by whom?

For instance, how significantly have they used the Arabic Parts into their Astrology in practice? Any examples?

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Unread 03-02-2018, 12:27 AM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

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Originally Posted by Senecar View Post
Hellenistic Astrologers, I would imagine, had been exchanging a lot of information and technicalities with Arabic Astrologers.

How much then, have they inherited and integrated Arabic Astrological principles into theirs and by whom?

For instance, how significantly have they used the Arabic Parts into their Astrology in practice? Any examples?
You got that backwards. Arabic astrologers inherited all important Lots from the Hellenistic tradition. They invented new ones, but the concept was already there. The Lot of Fortune dates to at least first century BC. ''Arabic Part'' therefore is a misnomer. The only difference in their usage I can think of was that early Hellenists thought of Lots as places (Lot of Fortune did not have a degree, but the sign associated with it became and was called Fortune), not as points (but that can be seen in Ptolemy and some Hellenists, Ptolemy is likely the reason they were conceived as such later).

Unless by Hellenistic and Arabic you meant modern astrologers who use methods from those traditions, which would be a rather strange designation too.

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Unread 03-02-2018, 04:18 AM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

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You got that backwards. Arabic astrologers inherited all important Lots from the Hellenistic tradition. They invented new ones, but the concept was already there..
Quite so. By the time of Paulus Alexandrianus (c.4th century CE) Greco-Roman astrology had over 90 Lots in use. Later "Arabic" astrology (more appropriately called "Islamic Transitional Era" astrology) added some dozen or so more; today (in Modernist astrology) contemporary Lots are being added.
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Unread 03-02-2018, 05:18 AM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

Hi Dr this is William. From the little I read, after Ptolemy didn't the Arabs and others make mistakes, and that is why you and I and others use whole signs? Nothing personal. Every time I do a chart for someone the new settings do not describe them as well as whole signs do. Also how do you feel about Sidereal vs Tropical? Again nothing personal, but the former does not describe me nor others as well as Tropical. In Sidereal the Sun is in the previous sign, and the ascendant, Moon , also. It does not describe myself nor others very well, again nothing personal. I'm into all types of alt medicine from all cultures, etc. I'm just starting out in astrology, I understand Sidereal deals more with the stars and Tropical deals more with planets? I also have read Tropical has moved further 25 degrees or so since the time of Ptolemy? If so, it still describes myself and others much better than using Sidereal in a setting. Please give me some answer, thanks!
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Unread 03-28-2018, 09:47 AM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

So when you say traditional Arabic Astrologers, which Arabic countries and what part of historical time span are you talking about?
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Unread 03-28-2018, 01:44 PM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

After some consideration and experiments, I have converted to using Sidereal zodiac myself.

The critical point is that, what tropical charts show in them, all the planets and stars are not true position in the sky, but 25 degrees off from the true position in the actual sky.

This situation, according to Cyril Fagan, mess up all the exaltation and dignity information about the houses and stars, which leads astrologers to come to wrong delineations.

Indeed, I did a horary reading this morning, and cast two charts for it one based onsidereal and the other tropical. Jupiter was in Libra with Face and Participation dignity in the sidereal chart, but in tropical, it was placed in Scorpio 27degrees as perigrine and late degrees which makes it debilitated and weak.

Of course, sidereal answer was correct for the reading.

Fagan says that it was Hellenistic Astrologers who started using tropical after ublication of Ptolemy's book Tetrbiblios, which started the confusion.
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Unread 03-28-2018, 02:37 PM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

Interesting Senecar, ive been looking into Hellenistic too recently after coming across and watching a few videos on youtube about it, so you are finding using sidereal with horary, produces more accurate charts ?
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Unread 03-28-2018, 02:48 PM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

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Originally Posted by Senecar View Post
After some consideration and experiments, I have converted to using Sidereal zodiac myself.

The critical point is that, what tropical charts show in them, all the planets and stars are not true position in the sky, but 25 degrees off from the true position in the actual sky.

This situation, according to Cyril Fagan, mess up all the exaltation and dignity information about the houses and stars, which leads astrologers to come to wrong delineations.

Indeed, I did a horary reading this morning, and cast two charts for it one based onsidereal and the other tropical. Jupiter was in Libra with Face and Participation dignity in the sidereal chart, but in tropical, it was placed in Scorpio 27degrees as perigrine and late degrees which makes it debilitated and weak.

Of course, sidereal answer was correct for the reading.

Fagan says that it was Hellenistic Astrologers who started using tropical after ublication of Ptolemy's book Tetrbiblios, which started the confusion.
Good idea to test using Horary
although obviously it is likely some would disagree


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Interesting Senecar, ive been looking into Hellenistic too recently
after coming across and watching a few videos on youtube about it, so
you are finding using sidereal with horary, produces more accurate charts ?

easily checked
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Unread 03-28-2018, 03:22 PM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

What do you mean by "easily checked" ?

Is this your way of saying i should test sidereal out myself instead of asking others opinions ? i was asking Senecar if he was finding them more accurate, i was curious to know from someone who's already applied sidereal to horary.
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Unread 03-28-2018, 04:22 PM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

First, I think it would be a great idea not to turn every thread to a tropical-sidereal debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senecar View Post
So when you say traditional Arabic Astrologers, which Arabic countries and what part of historical time span are you talking about?
Just like Hellenistic astrologers included late Egyptians (Hephaistio, Odapsos, Ptolemy) Romans (Firmicus Maternus), Babylonians (Teucer?) or Hellenized ''barbarians'' like Porphyry, in the same way I would include Persians or Jews like Mashaallah or Christians like Theophilus of Edessa in Arabic Astrology. The Roman Empire was a bit ''globalized'' at the time and you can encounter talking of a Hellenic mind in Valens or quotes of Homer for example. The Jews of Alexandria were no less influenced by Hellenism at the time.

Basically authors who wrote in Arabic or served as court astrologers of princes and kings who lived in Persia and Arabia, or other Islamic rulers There is a difference between Persian and Arabic astrology, but we do not have a good idea of what exactly the Persians did, we know there was interchange with India, applying aspect theories, probably horary, firdaria and Jupiter-Saturn mundane. By Arabic, usually 8th century to 13th century is meant, as the center of astronomy and astrology of that time was Baghdad (with its observatory), and astrology fell into disrepute after the fall of that city. Mashaallah played a role in choosing the event chart of Baghdad under the rule of Caliph al-Mansur. (in case you are wondering, the chart that later authors report is sidereal)

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Unread 03-28-2018, 07:25 PM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

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Interesting Senecar, ive been looking into Hellenistic too recently after coming across and watching a few videos on youtube about it, so you are finding using sidereal with horary, produces more accurate charts ?
Sidereal charts seem giving more accurate results for me. But I have done only 3-4 tests so far. I am intending to keep casting both sidereal and tropical charts for horary, and compare the results.
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Unread 03-28-2018, 07:33 PM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

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First, I think it would be a great idea not to turn every thread to a tropical-sidereal debate.

By Arabic, usually 8th century to 13th century is meant, as the center of astronomy and astrology of that time was Baghdad (with its observatory), and astrology fell into disrepute after the fall of that city. Mashaallah played a role in choosing the event chart of Baghdad under the rule of Caliph al-Mansur. (in case you are wondering, the chart that later authors report is sidereal)
Not sure how the thread turned into sidereal tropic debate, but that's what I read from JA's reply to jazz.

For Arabic Astrology, should Babylonia not accounted as one too? Babylonia was the ancient land for now Iraq? Surely Iraq is that part of the world?

If so, Babylonians had sophisticated astrology from BC 700-800 time having their own ephemerides, charts with angles of stars, dignity tables etc? Their system had been passed onto ancient Egypt, and then to Greece and Rome?
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Unread 03-28-2018, 07:40 PM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

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Originally Posted by Senecar View Post
Not sure how the thread turned into sidereal tropic debate, but that's what I read from JA's reply to jazz.

For Arabic Astrology, should Babylonia not accounted as one too? Babylonia was the ancient land for now Iraq? Surely Iraq is that part of the world?

If so, Babylonians had sophisticated astrology from BC 700-800 time having their own ephemerides, charts with angles of stars, dignity tables etc? Their system had been passed onto ancient Egypt, and then to Greece and Rome?
0 evidence. They did not have charts with angles of stars nor dignity tables. They also did not have an Internet in case you are wondering. Angles originate in Egypt around the 2nd century BC with decans (maybe 3rd century BC), based on the available evidence. Basically Babylonia and Neo-Assyria was Arabized and subsequently Islamized after a few centuries AD.

Dignity is a medieval concept. It simply did not exist in the Hellenistic tradition.

I gave you the common accepted relative meaning of Arabic astrology. Surely.

Btw 3,4 tests and I think it works better is not very convincing.

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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

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0 evidence. They did not have charts with angles of stars nor dignity tables. They also did not have an Internet in case you are wondering. Angles originate in Egypt around the 2nd century BC with decans (maybe 3rd century BC), based on the available evidence. Basically Babylonia and Neo-Assyria was Arabized and subsequently Islamized after a few centuries AD.

Dignity is a medieval concept. It simply did not exist in the Hellenistic tradition.

I gave you the common accepted relative meaning of Arabic astrology. Surely.

Btw 3,4 tests
and I think it works better
is not very convincing.

At least two hundred and fifty plus charts tested is required
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Unread 03-28-2018, 09:09 PM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

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0 evidence. They did not have charts with angles of stars nor dignity tables. They also did not have an Internet in case you are wondering. Angles originate in Egypt around the 2nd century BC with decans (maybe 3rd century BC), based on the available evidence. Basically Babylonia and Neo-Assyria was Arabized and subsequently Islamized after a few centuries AD.

Dignity is a medieval concept. It simply did not exist in the Hellenistic tradition.

I gave you the common accepted relative meaning of Arabic astrology. Surely.

Btw 3,4 tests and I think it works better is not very convincing.
My information was based on Kennth Bowser's book "An Introduction to Western Sideral Astrology". Have you read the book?
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Unread 03-28-2018, 09:11 PM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

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At least two hundred and fifty plus charts tested is required
I have converted to using both Sidereal and Tropical zodiac only last week.
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Unread 03-28-2018, 09:39 PM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

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My information was based on Kennth Bowser's book "An Introduction to Western Sideral Astrology". Have you read the book?
It will be better to provide quotes of those claims if you say you represent his words. I can provide you with quotes from respected scholars in the field that what you say is impossible. Afaik Kenneth believes the equal sign zodiac to have been invented a couple centuries earlier compared to the accepted 5th century BC model (topic that is of a little concern to me), I do not think he claims houses and angularity originates with them.

No, I have not. Also Kenneth is a modern astrologer. What do I have to do with modern astrology?

Congratulations on your conversion, use that enthusiasm wisely, like in real testing and proving.

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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

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It will be better to provide quotes of those claims if you say you represent his words. I can provide you with quotes from respected scholars in the field that what you say is impossible. Afaik Kenneth believes the equal sign zodiac to have been invented a couple centuries earlier compared to the accepted 5th century BC model (topic that is of a little concern to me), I do not think he claims houses and angularity originates with them.

No, I have not. Also Kenneth is a modern astrologer. What do I have to do with modern astrology?

Congratulations on your conversion, use that enthusiasm wisely, like in real testing and proving.
Thanks. Yeah, it was late Mr Houck's book Astrology of Death ignited my interest in Sidereal zodiac, and also the small debates in this forum regarding the topic

But Bowser talks about Babylonian astrology extensively in his book = there are a couple of charts in the book by Babylonian astrologers which were cast in year 768BC, with all the angles of the planets in the charts. Its amazing.

He clearly says that the concept of Exaltation of planets in house had originated from them. Only difference was they used to think that planet was exalted when they are in their own houses. Later that concept had been modified by maybe the Egyptians?

The books also talks about Cyril Fagan and his ideas about the topic. It is impossible to give you one or two lines quotes to make the point. It would be much better if you would read it in person = the whole chapter and Apendix of the book.

BTW, whole house? Had it not been also used by Babylonians, and is one of the oldest house system?
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Unread 03-28-2018, 11:02 PM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senecar View Post

Thanks. Yeah, it was late Mr Houck's book Astrology of Death ignited my interest in Sidereal zodiac, and also the small debates in this forum regarding the topic

But Bowser talks about Babylonian astrology extensively in his book = there are a couple of charts in the book by Babylonian astrologers which were cast in year 768BC, with all the angles of the planets in the charts. Its amazing.

He clearly says
that the concept of Exaltation of planets in house
had originated from them.


Only difference was they used to think that planet was exalted when they are in their own houses.
Later that concept had been modified by maybe the Egyptians?
QUOTE

1949, Fagan made what many consider his greatest discovery. about the exaltations.
Already in Ptolemy's time their origin was lost.

There are certain degrees associated with these places.
Fagan discovered that these positions are the heliacal phenomena for
the planets Mercury, Mars, Saturn and Jupiter for the parallel through
Babylon for the lunar year 786-785 B.C.
the Sun, Moon and Venus degrees are the positions at the first of Nisan
the first Babylonain month, April 3, 786 B.C. Julian at Moonset.
These heliacal positions have not repeated either tropically or sidereally
since the beginning of recorded history circa 3100 B.C.

source:
FREE ONLINE ARTICLE
at
https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/45f0b2_f0b1b59d4dc75f9a7d00428830e28cfa.pdf
A Brief Overview of the Astrological Work of Cyril Fagan
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Unread 03-29-2018, 12:20 AM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

Senecar, if you're interested in Hellenistic astrology, you might look at Vettius Valens, Anthologies, written around 150 CE, about the same time as Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos.

JA's signature line has a link to an English translation.

Valens seemed to have used the Part of Fortune extensively, as a means of getting a better fix on the person's life, especially in terms of fame (good fortune) or shame. Basically he used a turned house method, where the house of the P of F was set equal to the first house, and the other houses following accordingly. This practice sometimes gave quite different interpretations than one would get from the radix chart.

So far as I can determine Valens knew of several different house systems, but used whole signs in his detailed chart analyses. He didn't mention sidereal vs. tropical, although his contemporary Ptolemy made a clear case for the tropical zodiac. Also, historian of astronomy Otto Neugebauer went through all of the collected Hellenistic-era horoscopes and matched them to positions that are essentially tropical; although ca. 150 there wasn't much difference.

Muslim astrologers like Al Biruni added a whole lot more parts to the repertory.
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Unread 03-29-2018, 03:37 AM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senecar View Post
Not sure how the thread turned into sidereal tropic debate, but that's what I read from JA's reply to jazz.

For Arabic Astrology, should Babylonia not accounted as one too? Babylonia was the ancient land for now Iraq? Surely Iraq is that part of the world?

If so, Babylonians had sophisticated astrology from BC 700-800 time having their own ephemerides, charts with angles of stars, dignity tables etc? Their system had been passed onto ancient Egypt, and then to Greece and Rome?
The "hellenistic world" was the different empires and kingdoms that developed around the mediterranean and part of the middle east, after the conquests of Alexander the Great, around the year 320 BC. They are called this way, because hellenic culture (ancient greek) was spread through these kindgoms and states and mixed with ancient asian cultures (such as that of the persians). Eventually most of these kingdoms fell under the control of the Roman Empire. The astrology from this period of time is what most astrologers refer to as "hellenistic astrology"

Centuries later, during the 7th century AD, the muslim empire conquered a huge amount of those territories, mostly in northern African, Asia minor, and part of Europe. They absorbed part of this greek culture into their own, and astrology was part of that knowledge. The astrology that was developed and expanded within this period is what we usually call as "persian or arabic astrology". The reason why that name is chosen, is probably because not all of the astrologers were actually muslim (for example Ibn-Ezra was jewish living in muslim Spain), so astrologers today settled for the term "arabic" or "persian" (from historical perspective the muslim empire's origin was in arabia/persia)

---------

The original parts were created during the hellenistic period. However, they are popularly called "arabic" parts, because they were expanded under the influence of the "arabic astrologers" of the muslim empire during the middle-ages. The muslim astrologers also created many of them for different uses.

This is a time table of how we divide the periods of time and "schools" of astrology within what we call traditional. The dates may not be super accurate, but more or less:

Before 3rd century BC: Proto-astrology (Babylonia/Egypt)
From 3rd century BC to 7th century AD: Hellenistic Astrology (Hellenic Kingdoms/Roman empire)- use of Horoscopos**
From 7th century AD to 15th century AD: Persian Astrology (Muslim empire) - also called Arabic Astrology
From 15th century AD until 19th century: Reinassance Astrology (Europe)
From 19th century until now: Modern Astrology, in all its forms (worldwide)

** The historical hellenic period officially ends with the fall of the roman republic and the rise of the roman empire, but in astrology both periods are usually considered as part of the "hellenistic astrology" period.

You can also add Indian Astrology as a separate branch that developed on its own in Asia.
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Unread 03-29-2018, 08:20 AM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

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Seven Arguments for why the Sidereal Zodiac is the best form of sign division
Thanks again sir. I'm just starting out, my background is music, history, face reading, alt medicine, etc. I'm not a pro astrologer. All I know is that when I have set up my birth chart or for others in sidereal fashion, the sun sign and ascendant did not make sense to us, it is one sign backwards from the Tropical. Tropical did make more sense to us. Nothing personal of course... Also modern settings beyond whole signs also push the ascendant up one sign, again not making sense in my or others birth charts. That was my observation. Thanks again!
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Unread 03-29-2018, 09:11 PM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Senecar, if you're interested in Hellenistic astrology, you might look at Vettius Valens, Anthologies, written around 150 CE, about the same time as Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos.

JA's signature line has a link to an English translation.

Valens seemed to have used the Part of Fortune extensively, as a means of getting a better fix on the person's life, especially in terms of fame (good fortune) or shame. Basically he used a turned house method, where the house of the P of F was set equal to the first house, and the other houses following accordingly. This practice sometimes gave quite different interpretations than one would get from the radix chart.

So far as I can determine Valens knew of several different house systems, but used whole signs in his detailed chart analyses. He didn't mention sidereal vs. tropical, although his contemporary Ptolemy made a clear case for the tropical zodiac. Also, historian of astronomy Otto Neugebauer went through all of the collected Hellenistic-era horoscopes and matched them to positions that are essentially tropical; although ca. 150 there wasn't much difference.

Muslim astrologers like Al Biruni added a whole lot more parts to the repertory.
I heavily disagree with what you are saying.

''Basically'' he exposits derivative houses from Fortune never uses it again like some hundred other theories and techniques he collected (like equal and quadrant houses, although he actually uses quadrants a few times). His cosmic and natal angles are just fancy ways of saying the same thing Petosiris did by using angles from the Place/Sign of Fortune. He uses it mostly like other astrologers did, examine whether it is angular, inoperative or operative, the aspects, especially the angular houses (because planets would square and oppose from them) and the ruler. He uses 8th and 11th house from it a bit when talking of death and distinction, but that is it. He is not using 7th for wife or 4th for parents for example.

Neugebauer matched most of the Hellenistic horoscopes and you can see that Valens' values are most definitely sidereal, this is even mentioned by Neugebauer who says that the 0 Aries system is entirely absent in Babylonian astronomy and astrology. He mentions that when discussing Valens' horoscopes, because they are related.

Many of the horoscopes given by Valens are from the middle of the first century, where there was definitely a difference. This means his predecessors also used sidereal. Are you questioning that?

Last edited by petosiris; 03-29-2018 at 09:21 PM.
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Unread 03-29-2018, 09:31 PM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

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Originally Posted by jazzbluessinger View Post
Thanks again sir. I'm just starting out, my background is music, history, face reading, alt medicine, etc. I'm not a pro astrologer. All I know is that when I have set up my birth chart or for others in sidereal fashion, the sun sign and ascendant did not make sense to us, it is one sign backwards from the Tropical. Tropical did make more sense to us. Nothing personal of course... Also modern settings beyond whole signs also push the ascendant up one sign, again not making sense in my or others birth charts. That was my observation. Thanks again!
Nothing personal, but maybe asking a tropical astrologer why something is present in tropical, but not in sidereal is not the way to go. Post a chart and an observation where both sides can comment and each person can decide for himself. If it is related to sun sign, moon sign and ascendant signs, maybe the modern board is the right place for you, nothing personal.
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Unread 03-30-2018, 04:49 AM
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Re: Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

Petosiris, I respect your knowledge. My interpretations have been somewhat different. A few years ago I actually worked out all of the verbal horoscopes in Valens that were complete enough to cast a horoscope. I used Neugebauer and Van Hoesen's dates. I found I had to offset them all by one day to get them to work out, but when I did that, I was able to cast charts that matched Valens's verbal descriptions, using whole signs houses.

I found that with the Part of Fortune, Valens used the house/sign only, not the degree. This made sense to me, because, in his day, it was hard to have a lot of confidence in exact birth times. He gives several horoscopes where he attributes the horoscope native's success or failure in life to the chart turned to put the P of F in the first house.

The thing about sidereal/tropical in Hellenistic times, is that there is a lot of confusion about them. We know the Babylonians used a sidereal zodiac, and that they did not use houses or calculate an ascendant. Greenbaum and Ross made a strong case for attributing the ascendant degree to the ancient Egyptians. As to when the spring equinox could be set exactly to 0 degrees Aries, there is some debate. Ptolemy may have jumped the gun. I note that he disliked houses, and said very little about them in Tetrabiblos.

I'm finally home after 7-weeks away. If you would like to pursue this topic further, I can delve into my archives of academic articles for citations.
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File Type: jpg Valens horoscope 1.jpg (42.1 KB, 5 views)
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Last edited by waybread; 03-30-2018 at 04:54 AM.
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