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  #1  
Unread 02-10-2018, 10:20 AM
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Smile How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

With Whole-sign Houses, and the nature of the Planets and qualities of the Signs, CAN Horary be practiced accurately without according rulership of Planet to Sign, using TRADITIONAL methods? For example, Saturn finds joy in H12, regardless of the Sign that happens to coincide with that House, etc. The Aspects, and direction of motion--applying to, and separating from--are independent of Sign-rulership. The Houses have their own designations, such as Angular and Cadent. So, CAN Sign-rulership be entirely ignored in Traditional Horary, without adversely affecting the accuracy of the prediction?

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Unread 02-10-2018, 07:07 PM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Hi, David,
I am not exactly sure what you are trying to ascertain, but rulership of the planets over the signs is primary means of delineation in of traditional astrology.
Since you reference whole sign houses, might you flesh out a bit more what you are trying to ask regarding it in relations to other house systems?
Is it something about whole sign houses eliminating any ambiguity about which planet rules a house in a chart [which can occur in all the other house systems]?
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  #3  
Unread 02-10-2018, 07:31 PM
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Smile Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

You're right, Whole-sign wouldn't change the situation. In fact, Placidus is what I was actually thinking about. It wouldn't matter what Sign the Ascendant was in to get the House boundaries. Eliminating the Signs would still leave a lot of the Horary techniques in place, and that would work the same without distinguishing between Tropical and Western Sidereal. Don't the Houses themselves provide an evaluation of Planetary strength and weakness?
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Unread 02-10-2018, 07:45 PM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Well, you have to use planetary rulership of the signs to determine who the planets/actors are in the horary.
The hierarchy or flow from the bottom up, in a sense, is: houses, signs and then planets. That is, the planets rule the signs on the houses.

The houses only provide what is called accidental dignity as part of planetary strength. The planetary rulership of the signs determine a planet's essential dignity or debility, which is more influential than accidental, in determining planetary strength and weakness.
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Unread 02-10-2018, 07:53 PM
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Smile Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Thanks! One last question--how important are the Signs when it come to which Planet represents who and what in the question asked? Really appreciate your explanations.
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Unread 02-10-2018, 08:36 PM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Thanks! One last question--how important are the Signs when it come to which Planet represents who and what in the question asked? Really appreciate your explanations.
You are welcome, David.
Again, I am not quite sure of your context, but overall, the signs are extremely important.
They determine the primary significators [the planet you look at to represent the person asking the question or being questioned about]. To begin a delineation, the first thing you do is look to the house that governs the area life being questioned. The planet that rules the sign on that house is a primary actor in the scenario to be examined.
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Last edited by IleneK; 02-10-2018 at 08:38 PM.
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Unread 02-10-2018, 09:03 PM
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Smile Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
You are welcome, David.
Again, I am not quite sure of your context, but overall, the signs are extremely important.
They determine the primary significators [the planet you look at to represent the person asking the question or being questioned about]. To begin a delineation, the first thing you do is look to the house that governs the area life being questioned. The planet that rules the sign on that house is a primary actor in the scenario to be examined.
I would have THOUGHT the querent would be represented by the Planet ruling the Ascendant-Sign. I'll have to study this more thoroughly! Thanks again.
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Unread 02-10-2018, 09:10 PM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Usually the querent is, though in some specialist techniques, he isn't always ruled by the planet ruling the ascendant.

However, he may be asking about his car, his son, his job, a house, a holiday, a business proposal, etc. And those things aren't ruled by the planet ruling the rising. You want to look at the planet ruling the rising sign, the planet ruling the house that has domain over the quesited (the object of the question), and the moon. Occasionally other things, but you always have those three planets in play.
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Unread 02-10-2018, 09:16 PM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Thank you, Odd, for stepping in. My knowledge of traditional astrology is limited and David was very kindly exploring my limits...
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  #10  
Unread 02-10-2018, 09:17 PM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

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Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
Thank you, Odd, for stepping in. My knowledge of traditional astrology is limited and David was very kindly exploring my limits...
You said it first. I just tried to spell it out a little bit more. Your knowledge of astrology is just fine
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Unread 02-10-2018, 09:27 PM
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Smile Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
Thank you, Odd, for stepping in. My knowledge of traditional astrology is limited and David was very kindly exploring my limits...
I wasn't testing you. I just thought it meant there were different techniques available, which Oddity just confirmed. Ascendant-Sign ruler seemed logical, but not necessarily the case.
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Unread 02-11-2018, 12:29 AM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I wasn't testing you. I just thought it meant there were different techniques available, which Oddity just confirmed. Ascendant-Sign ruler seemed logical, but not necessarily the case.
I did not mean to suggest you were testing me, only that we were reaching the limits of my knowledge. I enjoyed our exchange, David, because it made me think and put into words answers to your thoughtful questions. Thank you.
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Unread 02-11-2018, 04:52 AM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
You're right, Whole-sign wouldn't change the situation. In fact, Placidus is what I was actually thinking about. It wouldn't matter what Sign the Ascendant was in to get the House boundaries.
Honestly I prefer Placidus for horary. Placidus is based on planetary hours; one "house" is two planetary hours. Hour ruler is particularly important in horary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
Eliminating the Signs would still leave a lot of the Horary techniques in place, and that would work the same without distinguishing between Tropical and Western Sidereal. Don't the Houses themselves provide an evaluation of Planetary strength and weakness?
Eliminating the signs would leave a LOT out of horary, because as Ilene said the rulership of the signs is what determines the significators. If you want to experiment with zodiacs go ahead. I have seen good results with astrologers using either...consistently. The key to astrology, and horary, is being able to read what the stars are telling you. How you do it is up to you, but you can't change how you do it in order to get a better answer to the question. Does that make sense? The question is born to the astrologer when it is born, and it meets the astrolger where he/she is in her journey.
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Unread 02-11-2018, 05:01 AM
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Smile Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Thanks tsmall, I get what you're saying. But, for some reason, Osamenor got blamed for my naive Post.
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Unread 02-11-2018, 05:21 AM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Thanks tsmall, I get what you're saying. But, for some reason, Osamenor got blamed for my naive Post.
Ok, tease the recently ressurected. Did I somehow step in something?
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Unread 02-11-2018, 05:33 AM
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Smile Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Ok, tease the recently ressurected. Did I somehow step in something?
Now I'm confused. Osamenor hasn't posted on this thread, but my quote makes it look that way. Must have been a glitch.
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Unread 02-11-2018, 10:27 AM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
With Whole-sign Houses, and the nature of the Planets and qualities of the Signs, CAN Horary be practiced accurately without according rulership of Planet to Sign, using TRADITIONAL methods? For example, Saturn finds joy in H12, regardless of the Sign that happens to coincide with that House, etc. The Aspects, and direction of motion--applying to, and separating from--are independent of Sign-rulership. The Houses have their own designations, such as Angular and Cadent. So, CAN Sign-rulership be entirely ignored in Traditional Horary, without adversely affecting the accuracy of the prediction?
Hi David!

If you're starting out with horary, here are some quick basic guidelines:

1. First and most important are house meanings. If you assign your question to the wrong house, the whole delineation will be wrong.

2. Planets ruling the signs on house cusps are your key players in particular question. Modern rulers just don't work, you can try it for yourself.

So, planets are WHO or WHAT.

3. Signs describe planets (who or what).

a) through their general qualities - general description of who or what

b) through planetary dignities and debilities in particular sign - the condition of who or what

So, signs are HOW, in general.

4. House placements and other accidental dignities and debilities give you additional info about condition of who or what. House placements can also mean WHERE.

5. Dignity shows power to act.
Aspect shows occasion to act.
Receptions show inclination to act.

6. Note, easy is not necessarily good (as in trine aspect). Nature of the aspect shows smoothness of interaction rather than outcome. Final outcome is determined by condition of the planets and by reception.

In horary, you are concerned only with EXACT aspects. In questions about future you are looking for applying aspects. In questions about past you are looking for separating aspects.

Questions about general state of affairs don't need aspects to be delineated.

7. Finally, we must not forget that horary is an ART. It is a tool to help you to tune in with your natural ability of intuition rather than mechanical parrot-like repetition of quotations and opinions of past astrologers. While general rules of horary always stand, interpretation is up to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
The key to astrology, and horary, is being able to read what the stars are telling you. How you do it is up to you, but you can't change how you do it in order to get a better answer to the question. Does that make sense? The question is born to the astrologer when it is born, and it meets the astrolger where he/she is in her journey.
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Unread 02-11-2018, 11:16 AM
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Smile Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Wow! That's a REALLY clear set of guidelines. Thanks Cap. And thanks to Ilene, Oddity and tsmall!
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Unread 02-11-2018, 10:30 PM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Ruling planets of the houses for questied and their condition, major aspects between these planets and condition of the Moon seem all important elements in Horary readings.

So perhaps Regiomontnus or Placidus House system is best for Horary?
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Unread 02-11-2018, 10:49 PM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Use whatever house system you use. Mrs Small makes an excellent argument for Placidus, as it ties in to the planetary hours. Lilly used Regiomontanus. Bonatti probably used Alchabitius, that's the one I first learned doing horary, and it works well.

The key is consistency. Pick a house system and stick with it.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 05:30 AM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap View Post
Hi David!

If you're starting out with horary, here are some quick basic guidelines:

1. First and most important are house meanings. If you assign your question to the wrong house, the whole delineation will be wrong.

2. Planets ruling the signs on house cusps are your key players in particular question. Modern rulers just don't work, you can try it for yourself.

So, planets are WHO or WHAT.

3. Signs describe planets (who or what).

a) through their general qualities - general description of who or what

b) through planetary dignities and debilities in particular sign - the condition of who or what

So, signs are HOW, in general.

4. House placements and other accidental dignities and debilities give you additional info about condition of who or what. House placements can also mean WHERE.

5. Dignity shows power to act.
Aspect shows occasion to act.
Receptions show inclination to act.

6. Note, easy is not necessarily good (as in trine aspect). Nature of the aspect shows smoothness of interaction rather than outcome. Final outcome is determined by condition of the planets and by reception.

In horary, you are concerned only with EXACT aspects. In questions about future you are looking for applying aspects. In questions about past you are looking for separating aspects.

Questions about general state of affairs don't need aspects to be delineated.

7. Finally, we must not forget that horary is an ART. It is a tool to help you to tune in with your natural ability of intuition rather than mechanical parrot-like repetition of quotations and opinions of past astrologers. While general rules of horary always stand, interpretation is up to you.
This. Just this. There is more to it that is colored by learning, but Cap, hat's off. Because I haven't seen something so easily outlined before.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 09:51 PM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Very good, Cap, but may I make a minor correction?

Essential dignity shows that the planet will act well, but it does not show power to act.

Accidental fortitude (house placement) shows the planet's ability to act, for good or ill.

E.g., Saturn in Aries will act badly, but if it is on the MC, it certainly has great power to act.
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  #23  
Unread 02-12-2018, 10:42 PM
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Re: How Necessary is Sign-rulership in Horary?

Yes, of course.

My intention was to make clear overview of basics for novices in horary but I was somewhat pressed for time. Forgot to mention special role of the Moon too.
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