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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 10-16-2017, 07:11 PM
Tiarus Tiarus is offline
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Chart precision

Hi! I have some rather philosophical question.
Astrologers always insist on precise birth time and often say that even one minute of difference can change something in the chart.
But when we read old texts, we can find everything but accurate charts: if ascending sign is correct planet positions aren't and vice versa. Look at chart of Lilly's merchant (CA III) - there is soooo many wrong things (same errors in charts provided by Sahl, Masha'Allah, Abu mashar, Dorotheus of Sidon etc.)
Nevertheless, most of them were highly admired and gave some extraordinary predictions. I mean, we are not talking about some vulgar market astrologers but astrologers who predicted for kings and emperors.
What's the catch? If someone can give accurate predictions based on unaccurate chart, what does that tells us?

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  #2  
Unread 10-16-2017, 07:57 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Chart precision

Any way to know if these Charts were Tropical or Sidereal?
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  #3  
Unread 10-16-2017, 08:34 PM
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Re: Chart precision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiarus View Post
Hi! I have some rather philosophical question.
Astrologers always insist on precise birth time and often say that even one minute of difference can change something in the chart.
But when we read old texts, we can find everything but accurate charts: if ascending sign is correct planet positions aren't and vice versa. Look at chart of Lilly's merchant (CA III) - there is soooo many wrong things (same errors in charts provided by Sahl, Masha'Allah, Abu mashar, Dorotheus of Sidon etc.)
Nevertheless, most of them were highly admired and gave some extraordinary predictions. I mean, we are not talking about some vulgar market astrologers but astrologers who predicted for kings and emperors.
What's the catch? If someone can give accurate predictions based on unaccurate chart, what does that tells us?
In western astrology a minute won't make any difference. In Vedic I know some astrologers will rectify and rectify and rectify trying to squeeze out every second. I still don't think it is necessary but that's just my opinion. It is true that the less accurate the birth time, the fewer things that can be stated accurately, since some things move a lot in a day - angles, moon, vertex, POF, and other points. You just have to take the inaccuracy into account. I always try to rectify to within 30 minutes at worst if that is the best that can be achieved. If a person has absolutely no idea what time they were born, I can try rectification using life events assuming they are old enough and have had enough significant life events occur to them already. If not, all you can do is a general reading and major transits by outer planets to personal planets except the moon since the moon changes signs every 2 - 2 1/2 days. You won't be able to do anything with houses or angles if you have no time at all.
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Unread 10-16-2017, 09:22 PM
Tiarus Tiarus is offline
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Re: Chart precision

Mdinaz, tnx for answering

Well, I'm still very confused.
Example from Dorotheus (new translation from Ben Dykes):
SA 12 Sagittarius, Mercury 22 Libra, Sun 22 Libra (no mention if Mercury is cazimi or combust) etc.
Proper positions are:
SA 1 Sagittarius, Mercury 13 Libra, Sun 7 Libra

So, interpreting that chart Dorotheus could say that that person has Mercury combust and will experience some obstacles regarding that combustion. But actuallly, Mercury is running away from the Sun to its occidental heliacal rising. Or he could say that Mercury is cazimi, but it actually is combust (as like Lilly's chart of merchant has combust Venus, but he calculated Venus to be cazmi and predicted great fortune and success).

@david starling Most of the charts are tropical
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  #5  
Unread 10-16-2017, 09:28 PM
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Re: Chart precision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiarus View Post
Mdinaz, tnx for answering

Well, I'm still very confused.
Example from Dorotheus (new translation from Ben Dykes):
SA 12 Sagittarius, Mercury 22 Libra, Sun 22 Libra (no mention if Mercury is cazimi or combust) etc.
Proper positions are:
SA 1 Sagittarius, Mercury 13 Libra, Sun 7 Libra

So, interpreting that chart Dorotheus could say that that person has Mercury combust and will experience some obstacles regarding that combustion. But actuallly, Mercury is running away from the Sun to its occidental heliacal rising. Or he could say that Mercury is cazimi, but it actually is combust (as like Lilly's chart of merchant has combust Venus, but he calculated Venus to be cazmi and predicted great fortune and success).

@david starling Most of the charts are tropical
You show a 12 degree sun difference. You sure this isn't because of the difference between Julian calendar and Gregorian Calendar? They are ~11 days off.
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  #6  
Unread 10-16-2017, 09:37 PM
Tiarus Tiarus is offline
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Re: Chart precision

No, calendar is not a problem. Nevertheless, look at Saturn
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  #7  
Unread 10-16-2017, 09:47 PM
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Re: Chart precision

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Any way to know if these Charts were Tropical or Sidereal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiarus View Post

@david starling Most of the charts are tropical

On the contrary


QUOTE

'....The early Hellenistic astrologers most likely used a sidereal zodiac
so I experimented with several ayanasmas
and came up with the following chart
which corresponds with Valens description.
Note that he was born just after sunset
on a Sun day during a Sun hour, the first hour of the night......'
Anthony Louis blog
https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2017...ettius-valens/


This chart is cast in the sidereal zodiac (Raman ayanasma)
for 8 February 120 CE at 6:27 PM LMT in Antakya, Turkey.
The chart data is the same as given by Valens in his Anthology:
  • Sun and Mercury in Aquarius
  • Moon in Scorpio
  • Saturn in Cancer
  • Jupiter in Libra
  • Venus in Capricorn (Venus would be in Aquarius in the tropical zodiac and in the sidereal zodiac with a different ayanasma.)
  • Mars and Ascendant in Virgo


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  #8  
Unread 10-16-2017, 09:49 PM
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Re: Chart precision

Dunno then, I'd need to have an actual date so I can try some different things.
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  #9  
Unread 10-16-2017, 10:42 PM
Tiarus Tiarus is offline
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Re: Chart precision

@JupiterASC Well, MOST LIKELY isn't good enough Charts I looked were calculated in Tropical zodiac.

@mdinaz Dorotheus doesn't provide dates, just positions

Like this example: MA Le; VE Vi; JU and MO Li; SA, SU and ME Sc.
And here is reconstructed chart



It doesn't surprise me, actually. I don't even expect to find accurate planetary positions because astronomy back then still was rather primitive. But I'm puzzled over chart interpretations and predictions given on account of those unaccurate charts. I don't know if I'm pointing the REAL problem here

Last edited by Tiarus; 10-16-2017 at 10:51 PM.
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  #10  
Unread 10-16-2017, 10:47 PM
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Re: Chart precision

I used astro.com and set with julian calendar for the date, and I got the identical data above, even the same ASC.
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  #11  
Unread 10-16-2017, 10:49 PM
Tiarus Tiarus is offline
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Re: Chart precision

That chart is GOOD chart. But positions mentioned by Dorotheus (MA Le; VE Vi; JU and MO Li; SA, SU and ME Sc) are NOT correct. You can't get those positions Dorotheus mentioning in modern software.
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  #12  
Unread 02-07-2018, 02:54 AM
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Re: Chart precision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiarus View Post
Hi! I have some rather philosophical question.
Astrologers always insist on precise birth time and often say that even one minute of difference can change something in the chart.
But when we read old texts, we can find everything but accurate charts: if ascending sign is correct planet positions aren't and vice versa. Look at chart of Lilly's merchant (CA III) - there is soooo many wrong things (same errors in charts provided by Sahl, Masha'Allah, Abu mashar, Dorotheus of Sidon etc.)
Nevertheless, most of them were highly admired and gave some extraordinary predictions. I mean, we are not talking about some vulgar market astrologers but astrologers who predicted for kings and emperors.
What's the catch? If someone can give accurate predictions based on unaccurate chart, what does that tells us?
In my opinion, the good astrologer is not one who knows many delineations or techniques, but the one who can connect them together and work as a whole.

In the chronocratorship one should examine the difference of age and suitability, lest one furnish marriage and begetting of children for an infant. If financial loss is indicated at the age of two, it is a financial loss for the parents or the guardians.

Similarly even if you had one star in a wrong place, if you used predomination methods and took many factors into account you would not make a mistake that matters. Ptolemy who draws on previous material mentions and that the Lot, X, Mercury, Venus and Mars indicate occupation. You need to use them together to establish what the native will pursue.

As I said if one goes from a Time Lord to a Time Lord, delineating all events in succession, he will not fall into error. You need to have a common sense and a good understanding of how people live in the given area. So there is some, you could say, a philosophical or psychological part to every astrology.
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  #13  
Unread 02-10-2018, 03:47 AM
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Re: Chart precision

There are, according to the ancients, 4 ways the astrologer can err. If he took the chart with a crooked plank, If he didn't know whether or not the Sun had got off the midheaven, in the case of horary, If the querent were so silly he didn't know what to ask, and if the astrologer couldn't separate himself from the question.

Back in the days we traditional astrolgers debate all day long, NO ONE had a correct birth time. Which made precticting events based on natal charts pretty fricking difficult. It still does. Primary directions? Sure, which key? ZR? Of course, and even though someone did those calculations for us, they still don't always work. Ok, let's argue zodiac then, because of course that must be it. All of it is bs. Choose your zodiac (and if I see another post about it here I will delete it as irrelevant) and then prove your method. Because at it's heart, all the predictive methods we have in astrology depend on, or at least are bound by user error. It is a language, to read/divine the will of god. And even Ibn Ezra said there will be charts that don't conform to the will of God. So unless someone here can prove one way is better than the other...let's keep the discussion to trying to incorporate what those old dead dudes had to say compared to practical chart experience? I mean, I can't tell you how many texts I have read that were like...yes, yes, yes, wait, WTF?

Edit to add, most people way back when didn't have anything closely resembling a birth time. Which is why horary developed, and is much more reliable.
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  #14  
Unread 02-10-2018, 05:03 AM
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Re: Chart precision

I consider predictive astrology to be an ART of DIVINATION, not a mechanical machine; trends of keynote indications can be used to illumine the mind of the practitioner who then can "see" the (likely, or most likely) outcome. Machines require precision, exactness of all their parts, in order to function reliably; DIVINATION has no such requirement, in order to "work"...
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  #15  
Unread 02-10-2018, 09:33 AM
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Re: Chart precision

There were some members here keep insisting no accurate ToB, no chart.

But I have been saying there are not that many people with dead accurate ToB in this world, (especially in the ancient times) but Astrology still works.

Astrology to me, is a combined Science with empirical science bit and also divinative part which requires Astrolgers' insight and predictive and reading capabilities.

Where the former lacks, the later fills in to make it work.
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  #16  
Unread 02-10-2018, 01:10 PM
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Re: Chart precision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiarus View Post
Hi! I have some rather philosophical question.
Astrologers always insist on precise birth time and often say that even one minute of difference can change something in the chart.
But when we read old texts, we can find everything but accurate charts: if ascending sign is correct planet positions aren't and vice versa. Look at chart of Lilly's merchant (CA III) - there is soooo many wrong things (same errors in charts provided by Sahl, Masha'Allah, Abu mashar, Dorotheus of Sidon etc.)
Nevertheless, most of them were highly admired and gave some extraordinary predictions. I mean, we are not talking about some vulgar market astrologers but astrologers who predicted for kings and emperors.
What's the catch? If someone can give accurate predictions based on unaccurate chart, what does that tells us?
Ancient texts were copied
and re-copied
multiple times
by Scribes
who had knowledge of NEITHER astronomy NOR astrology
and errors were made by the Scribes
who copied incorrectly
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  #17  
Unread 02-10-2018, 07:51 PM
Tiarus Tiarus is offline
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Re: Chart precision

Thank you all for your replies!
@JupiterAsc I disagree. Yes, there were chart errors made by scribes, but not all of them. For example, try to reconstruct in modern software some horoscopes given by Luca Gaurico in Geophonensis Tractatus Astrologicus and you'll find too many wrong positions. There are many examples of unaccurately calculated charts - this is not surprising at all. I mean, astrologers back then used astrolabs which can't compare in any way to our modern ephemeris files, so errors are expected.
I said earlier, look at Lily's merchant chart - it's wrong. Lilly predicted great fortune and success to that merchant mainly because Venus was cazimi. But actually she was combust! (Ok, we can now discuss that he maybe faked some information provided but that's one big MAYBE). So, my question was how could that or any other prediction be good and truthful if it is taken from erroneous chart?

I absolutely agree that predictive astrology is an art of divination. But can we say loudly that it doesn't matter if you're born at 8:25 pm or 8:43 pm, because god can lead us to right conclusion anyway?

Last edited by Tiarus; 02-11-2018 at 10:17 AM.
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Unread 02-10-2018, 08:25 PM
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Re: Chart precision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiarus View Post
Thank you all for your replies!
@JupiterAsc I disagree. Yes, there were chart errors made by scribes, but not all of them. For example, try to reconstruct in modern software some horoscopes given by Luca Gaurico in Geophonensis Tractatus Astrologicus and you'll find too many wrong positions. There are many examples of unaccurately calculated charts - this is not surprising at all. I mean, astrologers back then used astrolabs which can't compare in any way to our modern ephemeris files, so errors are expected.
I said earlier, look at Lily's merchant chart - it's wrong. Lilly predicted great fortune and success to that merchant mainly because Venus was cazimi. But actually she was combust! (Ok, we can now discuss that he maybe faked some information provided but that's one big MAYBE). So, my question was how could that or any other prediction be good and truthful if it is taken from erroneous chart?

I absolutely agree that predictive astrology is an art of divination. But can we say loudly that it doesn't matter if you're born in 8:25 pm or 8:43 pm, because god can lead us to right conclusion anyway?
Some are aware that ancient manuscripts and texts were copied and recopied
and errors made in the process
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  #19  
Unread 02-10-2018, 08:36 PM
Tiarus Tiarus is offline
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Re: Chart precision

Well, some are also aware that copying and recopying is not the only reason for errors
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  #20  
Unread 02-14-2018, 08:59 AM
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Re: Chart precision

According to James H. Holden M.A. Fellow of the AFA, in ancient times and even up to recent past, people never knew their exact Time of Birth.

Most of them never knew even their Date of Birth. Hence Horary readings have been prevalent.
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Last edited by Senecar; 02-14-2018 at 10:57 AM.
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