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Degree Symbols Discuss your experiences with all symbol systems based on astrological degrees in the chart (i.e., Sabian Symbols, Kozminsky Symbols, etc.): the symbols for the transiting Sun and Moon and the events of your life, the symbols of your natal chart...


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Unread 01-09-2020, 07:23 PM
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

I came across a web page that provides an interpretation for Lilith based on which of the 12 signs it might be found within. It also provides a very succinct astronomical explanation as to what Black Moon Lilith is and how it operates.
My Black Moon Lilith is in Virgo and I found the description to be very accurate for myself.

You'll find this at the following link: https://astrolibrary.org/interpretations/lilith/

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Unread 01-15-2020, 01:34 AM
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

I do recommend, in fact i encourage all, to go to the above link about Black Moon Lilith and reading what it says about Lilith in Sagittarius. President Trump's natal B.M. Lilith is in the Sign of Sagittarius.
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Unread 02-13-2020, 07:13 PM
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Smile Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

My BML is also in Sagittarius, 25 sag 28' 42" , or Sabian SAG 26.

I have no idea how to interpret my Sabian symbols, just started today, but the planet descriptions intrigue me: about scholars and arcane texts, which is me all over, but again, just a glance.

The site didn't give me BML's Sabian symbol, but I recently became aware of BML when an otherwise-ordinary synastry (with someone I've had a lifelong fascination with) went off like fireworks when I added BML and the South Node.

I'm an amateur, only recently returned to astrology, and I must say, the impact of that synastry hit me like a ton of bricks and finally got my attention, there may be something to all this after all!
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Unread 02-14-2020, 01:45 AM
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

This is a good read

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...hadow+Side.pdf
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

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Originally Posted by Ukpoohbear View Post
It wouldn't load for me when I clicked on your link...almost, but it stalled and wouldn't finish.
I'll try again another time.
Thanks for your contribution.
ptv
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Unread 02-14-2020, 07:21 AM
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
My BML is also in Sagittarius, 25 sag 28' 42" , or Sabian SAG 26.

I have no idea how to interpret my Sabian symbols, just started today, but the planet descriptions intrigue me: about scholars and arcane texts, which is me all over, but again, just a glance.

The site didn't give me BML's Sabian symbol, but I recently became aware of BML when an otherwise-ordinary synastry (with someone I've had a lifelong fascination with) went off like fireworks when I added BML and the South Node.

I'm an amateur, only recently returned to astrology, and I must say, the impact of that synastry hit me like a ton of bricks and finally got my attention, there may be something to all this after all!
Attachment 84182
You've used a different Lilith than the one that is commonly used... and, the one that I put the most amount of faith into.

At astrodienst's website, when you cast a chart, go to the page, "Extended Chart Selection", and at the bottom of that page there is a drop down menu [which you have, obviously, already found], and at the top of that menu, among the first three choices, before "asteroids" there are listed three items. They are, in order, Part of Fortune, Vertex, and Lilith. That is the Lilith I recommend using.
When you do that you will find that its position is 25* Sag 32' 32".
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Unread 02-14-2020, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
It wouldn't load for me when I clicked on your link...almost, but it stalled and wouldn't finish.
I'll try again another time.
Thanks for your contribution.
ptv
I hope it works for you, it’s a great little book. Lilith is a powerful energy. Here is the Virgo one incase you can’t get it to load, it has houses and conjunction/opposition aspects too.

“Black Moon in Virgo

Theme: The Shadow of Ability

Primary Fear: fear of failure

Self-judgment: how much one works, progresses, improves, or fixes

Issues: feelings of being inherently flawed; self-criticism

Projection: feeling that others are not performing well enough or are incompetent

Goals: to not focus on flaws or failures, to not do things to excess, to not feel responsible to fix everything

Manifestation:
Black Moon in Virgo finds flaws and then internalizes them. This shadow manifests in chronic dissatisfaction, particularly with oneself. With this placement, we often find it difficult to feel positive about ourselves for great lengths of time. All too soon, a generalized feeling of being “not good enough” creeps back in to maintain internal disequilibrium. Black Moon in Virgo constantly challenges our abilities and, in an effort to prove ourselves, we tend to maintain a very full schedule. We work very hard but can have trouble seeing the forest for the trees, as we operate under the spell of having to do more and more to prove to ourselves and others that we are not flawed. This shadow is the most adept at self- punishment.

Healing and Transcending:
With the Black Moon in Virgo, the need to find fault must be faced. A healthier state of mind is achieved when we recognize that nothing is absolute – there is no absolute right or wrong. All levels of ability have something to contribute. Healing this shadow requires understanding that flaws are an illusion. The crucial thing to understand is that when we have the Black Moon in Virgo, we interpret the feeling of separation from Spirit as somehow our fault. Everyone has the feeling of spiritual disconnection, but Black Moon in Virgo personalizes it. This is the root cause of why we feel flawed. To heal the shadow, we must accept that to 28 some degree, this feeling is merely a by-product of the physical experience of life.

ø Examine where you feel you have failed. Upon closer inspection, what caused the “failure?” Was it really your fault? Was there really more you could have done or was it just not meant to be? Can you forgive yourself and others for not doing better?

ø Can you walk away from “failures” and feel enriched simply by having had the experience? Time is the true test of what is, at the time, perceived to be a failure. By focusing on the experience as opposed to the outcome, the shadow of ability is healed.

Black Moon in Virgo: Alexander Graham Bell, Benazir Bhutto, Sigmund Freud, Galileo, George Washington”

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Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
That is the Lilith I recommend using.
When you do that you will find that its position is 25* Sag 32' 32".
It's BML, right? Still SAG 26. Not the asteroid. Because my Lilith asteroid is over in Capricorn.

(NB: I love AstroMatrix, but it gives you the ASTEROID Lilith--then uses the symbol for BML! Took me awhile to figure out why it wasn't matching AstroDienst, etc.)

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Unread 02-14-2020, 02:10 PM
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Already had it!! Thanks. It's useful.
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Unread 02-14-2020, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
Already had it!! Thanks. It's useful.
No problem. Interesting in your chart that Ceres is conjunct Lilith, both feminine energies but one is about the nurturing principle and one is about the destructive principle.
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Unread 02-15-2020, 05:13 AM
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
It's BML, right? Still SAG 26. Not the asteroid. Because my Lilith asteroid is over in Capricorn.

(NB: I love AstroMatrix, but it gives you the ASTEROID Lilith--then uses the symbol for BML! Took me awhile to figure out why it wasn't matching AstroDienst, etc.)
There's actually four different possible influences that are assumed to be the rightful bearer of the name, or the ascribed influences. {if there are any more than that I wouldn't be all that much surprised.]
You'll find all four of them listed on that drop down menu.
They are...
1. Lilith ["Black Moon Lilith", aka "Mean Lilith"]
2. osc. Lilith [osculating Lilith, aka "True Lilith"]
3. Lilith [i] [the asteroid]
4. Waldemath [aka Waldemath Black Moon but sometimes spelled Waltemath, aka "Dark Moon Lilith", aka "The Shadow Moon"}

...and then there's Priapus

Priapus is the perigee of the Moons orbit in relation to the Earth, while Black Moon Lilith is the point of apogee.
Priapus is consider to be the male counterpart of Lilith. In mythology Priapos [Greek spelling] was a god of fertility: He is often portrayed with an over sized phallus.

Where Lilith is considered to be the feminine energy/power gone wild, Priapus is considered to be the male energy/power in the same way.
To a people who have dedicated themselves to a spiritual path, to evolving spiritually, Lilith is a detriment. My clairvoyant friend, Clarisse, speaks of Lilith as if she is an actual entity...she may well be. In Biblical lore, Lilith was the first mate of Adam, before eve [Ish and Ishta in the Hebrew]. In that same vein Priapus isn't conducive to ones spiritual path.
Lilith is the lure of sexual gratification, associated with the upside down pentagram. It can be the ruination of a good man.... and likely "the stuff that dreams are made of" to the debauched.

I sure that others will tell you that there is more to Lilith than that and that may well be. All I know, and believe that I need to know, is that it ain't good and when it conjuncts your Venus or Mars...look out.
[At this point I wrote a very long, esoteric and occult lore based explanation as to what and, or, who Lilith was/is that is just way too much for most anyone I even know personally, to "handle". So I deleted it, but I have also saved a copy of it. If you wish to read it...and think that you can handle the sort of lore that one might find in...let me use as an example, the "Necromicon"...which I've personally never have read...but I do know enough about it to use it for this purpose... let me know and I'll email, or personal message, it to you... but I must reserve the privilege of change of mind]
I often like to quote from the character Kevin Spacey played in the movie, "The Usual Suspects, Keyser Soze: "You know the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled is convincing the world that he doesn't exist".
Thus, to sum all of that up, Lilith is hellbent on the [spiritual, and likely material as well] destruction of humankind. She wants you to fail to attain your spiritual evolution.



Priapus is so little regarded by astrologers presently that it is all but completely ignored... which doesn't mean it should be. A great deal of the ancient knowledge of the complete science of astrology has been lost... That was a time long before any of the ancient Greeks began writing about it and I believe it was long before the Assyrian empire as well. In my, humble, opinion that was around 12,500 B.C. [or B.C.E. for those that prefer], about the time of the building of the Great Pyramid and the Sphinx, that it began to become muddled up and contaminated with a lot of false beliefs and erroneous practices. There is a legend of a Hall of Records buried some where near the Sphinx that might contain that knowledge but it is also by legend that the Hall will only be discovered and accessed by humankind when we have evolved enough spiritually to do right with the information it holds.
I have to admit to myself that there may be something to Priapus, thus I believe it is certainly worth investigating, but considering how much I have on my plate already presently, and that I'll be 67 years old this coming May... I don't have the time.

Waldemath is said by some to actually exist... an actual material celestial object... which no one has ever been able to prove among the astronomical society. I have heard a few say that it is but a shadow like mass of loose, dark, debris. I don't have much faith in it actually existing...but, it could be something that sometimes appears from a parallel dimension. I've had a number of quite unusual experiences in my lifetime and, I won't go into any of that but, I definitely believe in the existence of other dimensions.... that much I will say. Not very many astrologers give it any credence.

Lately, and the writing in this thread again has caused me to confront it, I'm leaning toward the acceptance of osculating Lilith. As I have found the only Nodes of the Moon are the True Nodes, then I should give the same consideration as that to Lilith.

Dark Moon Lilith is but an average, a mathematical calculation which hardly ever is the actual outcome. The path of the Moons' orbit around the earth is subject of many different gravitational pulls that science can't account for beforehand. Thus the True Lilith is the path it actually took and can only be ascertained after the fact.

One last thing. As Lilith is not an actual material body, only a point in space, as much as like Astrological Parts are the same, I believe that only direct conjunctions to Lilith are of any affect. Possibly only in the same degree, but as like how I presently believe Astrological Parts are in conjunction by a one degree orb of allowance, and thus a field of effect two degrees wide, imho anything within that two degree field is in conjunction.Anything even but one second of a degree outside of that field, imho, should not be considered to be conjunct.

P.S. forget about the asteroid so named... asteroids do have effect but they operate "like wormholes, opening and closing, here and then there", according to my clairvoyant friend Clarisse...and she is pretty doggone good at that stuff. I myself am also clairvoyant, but it only works for me through the dream state. So, yes, clairvoyance is for real. ..but few have it, many don't even know that they have it, and yet fewer still have a great deal of it and the ability to use it at will.
In my humble opinion, I believe that astrologers should limit themselves to the five largest known asteroids...at a stretch the ten largest...but they start getting pretty small after the fourth or fifth. Juno, imho, shouldn't be consulted as it is 13th on that list.
By habit, though, I usually only include the 3 largest when I cast a natal chart...and for the reason, other than the alleged influence of Juno, I don't know what the influences of the others are at present
I, personally, would go as far as the 7th largest, for the reason it is named Davida and that my name is David...but that's just me... a bit of vanity, perhaps? ...or, maybe, it is a "sign"...{?}
Those 7 largest are, in order of size.
1. Ceres
2. Vesta
3. Pallas
4. Hygiea
5. Euphrosyne
6. Interamnia
7. Davida
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Unread 02-15-2020, 06:49 AM
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

I kind of forgot that this thread is in the Degree Symbols sub-forum.
Thus one should consult with the Sabian Symbols as to what that symbol is for the Sign and degree that there Lilith is found in.
I may have to recant what I wrote about my wanting to consider osculating Lilith after I check that out for myself...it's been so many years since I wrote the first post to this thread...which became a "Sticky" without my intent or asking for it to be considered for such. I began this thread with the intent of finding out for myself, from other members here, as to all things about Lilith other than what I already knew...which was very little, other that it is, or should be, considered a malefic influence.
As I truly believe, and have often written, God didn't put anything in the Heavens with the intent of it being malefic. It is our karma that causes those astrological influences to be so. Thus, there surely must be some good to the influence it possesses.

My osc Lilith is in Libra, my Black Moon Lilith is in Virgo... it is in the same degree as the Part of War [aka Part of Rage] that is derived fro the U.S.A.'s natal chart [the "Zero Hour" chart, i.e. 12:00:01 A.M. July 4, 1776 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania] the 15th degree of Virgo. My osc Lilith is in the 12th degree of Libra.
One should look at the symbolism as it very likely is the precept that Lilith will attack you for... or by, or however you interpret its manner of foiling your association with it.

As I have just now read that Sabian Symbol for the 12th degree of Libra, I believe I must conclude that osc Lilith is very, very, likely the one to consult... as it is about this very work I do, that I've dedicated myself to doing.

[ibid.]

"LIBRA 12°: MINERS ARE SURFACING FROM A DEEP COAL MINE.
KEYNOTE:
The need to carry on at ever-deeper levels the quest for knowledge
which keeps burning the fires of the collective mind of a society.


The search for knowledge demands the dedication of many minds digging ever deeper into the realities of our earthly existence. It is a hard, often dark pursuit amidst great difficulties and the possibility of being spiritually asphyxiated by the constant intellectual effort and tension. When a person is confronted by this symbol it could be interpreted as showing the need for such an intellectual dedication but also as pointing to the advisability of emerging from it and leading a more natural life.

This second stage symbol is related to the first in that in both we see conditions of existence dealing with work for the sake of the collectivity. The opposition between intellectual and manual work is evident; less so is the fact that both classes of workers experience definite physical consequences as a result of their occupation: the eyes of the professor, the lungs of the coal miner. The professor digs in the intellectual past of mankind to find what may warm up the mental processes of his students; the coal miner brings to the surface the ancient remains of what once was living substance. Keyword: EXTRACTION."

...now, it does all make sense. As when I first met Clarisse, my clairvoyant friend, many years ago, and she told me that I had some destiny, to write a book, to give instructionals of some sort or another, ...which caught me totally off gaurd as for the reason I called her was because I was in a quandary as to how to proceed with a lawsuit against my former employer, as I had gotten shafted by my own lawyers, for they "sold me out"...my employer was a very large civic entity as to which I had been naively sent all the incriminating evidence of their perjured testimony in the legal depositions, [falsified work history, allegations of all sorts of behavior and activity, none of it which was true...and that my lawyers bamboozled me, got me to drop half of the lawsuit, connived me into settling for about 1/3rd of what I would have gotten if I had taken it all the way to trial...as they took the offer at the end of my deposition when I specifically told them not to...that they dragged the whole thing out for over two years in time so as to cause me to go bankrupt, and hopefully on their part, that I would be desperate to settle after that time...which I wasn't...I had a copy of everything in my file about 160 pages...of which I should have been sent about ten pages.
I had reason to fear or my life because of what I had...and if I submitted it to the State Employees Pension Board, for review so as to start collecting a disability pension, then t would be known to my former employer...and most of the management personnel involved were retired ex-military, with salaries in the hundreds of thousands, the director of personnel was making over 200k, and also collecting military pensions at the same time [ex colonel, ex major, a few captains, etc. ... they would likely gone to prison [a lot of falsified overtime, kickbacks, payoffs, theft etc. all to do with taxpayers money.. and a lawfirm that is one of the largest and most powerful in California over 40 lawyers on the staff.. I had no idea what to do at that point, I just wanted to start my actual retirement and was delaying for weeks because I feared for my life If I let it be known I had the evidence...and needed an opinion from someone, as to how I should go about taking the next step. Little did I know or even dream of actually getting anywhere with the activity I chose o fill the time with awaiting that interim between the time I last worked and got to court for a workers disability lawsuit. Using the internet at the library to see if there was a grand sextile in the heavens between 10 B.C. and 10 A.D., as I had learned from both reading Dane Rudhyar's works and the book on Kabbalistic Astrology by Rabbi Dobin, that it was a what was required to be found on the anticipated Messiah's natal horoscope... I figured that producing one chart a month for that 20 year window would be enough for e to tell if there was such a configuration during that time. I first wanted to try the date Edgar Cayce gave for the date of birth, but I had lost my copy of the book in which that info was given and I tried to recall it by memory...and was close...just a little more than a year off. ..and I had had that and and a few other charts but no where near the 240, one for every month in that twenty year span, at the time I first talked to Clarisse. I wasn't until November of 2004 that I got the opportunity to do it at my leisure, as the local library only allowed one 15 minutes of internet time on their computer per day.
She saw my future, just didn't know exactly what it was I would be writing about...and I have had to dig deep to get that knowledge.
It was at the end of the first phone call with Clarisse, she interjected, "You need to beware of Lilith" she said... I had only the slightest idea of what she might have been getting at.
Lilith would try to prevent me from "extracting that knowledge"...and I won't go into any of that...let me just say that She did, and leave it at that.

My post above should be the "Sticky", by that I mean the first post in this thread...and I'm going to add that as the header to that first post. I'd prefer that it was deleted but then that would destroy the integrity, the continuity, of the rest of this thread and obfuscate the reason for the replies it got...
That wouldn't be right, but I am going to add as a header that anyone reading this thread for the first time begin with my post above...as I am now satisfied...after all these years, that I have finally put it concisely, and most understandably [as I now think I truly understand it] for anyone that wishes to know...not that everyone else contributions aren't as helpful... there may be a few that it can do with out...but that's not my call. I just satisfied with my own contribution at last.

Thanks to Irisiel and Ukpoohbear for making it happen.
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Unread 02-15-2020, 12:25 PM
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

In the link I posted above, it described Dark moon Lilith as being the asteroid belt which used to be a planet but it broke up. If you’re interested and that link isn’t working I could copy some of it on here for you. I’ve checked both the dark moon and osc Lilith’s and comparing the Sabian symbols for each degree. I think I was told because the Sabian symbols start at zero you count one up and use the number after what it shows on your chart? The osc Sabian symbol made a lot of sense for me personally. I do still relate to the house and sign position of dark moon though, surely they have a purpose and even can be used in relation to each other?

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Unread 02-15-2020, 02:08 PM
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Lightbulb Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

PierceTheVale, that's interesting, your Sabian symbol and that Lilith. Particularly if you read Lilith to include: your secret passion, your inner wild, that which must be acknowledged.

But AstroDienst says (and I had it wrong, AstroMatrix had it right) that the osculating Lilith IS the BML (o), the interpolated/natural Lilith is (i), and the asteroid is what I have clean over in Aquarius. So your IDs confused me a bit.

And you're right, I was using Lilith(i), not BML, in the above chart. I made a new one for all the Liliths.

Also weird: AstroDienst shows Priapus (interpolated/natural) opposite not the (i) Lilith, but the BML. You would think the two "interpolated/natural" points would be the ones opposite each other.

ANYway the Lilith I've used is what suddenly made a certain synastry chart make sense to me.

Screenshot_2020-02-15-08-43-00_kindlephoto-11486354.jpg
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

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Originally Posted by Ukpoohbear View Post
In the link I posted above, it described Dark moon Lilith as being the asteroid belt which used to be a planet but it broke up. If you’re interested and that link isn’t working I could copy some of it on here for you. I’ve checked both the dark moon and osc Lilith’s and comparing the Sabian symbols for each degree. I think I was told because the Sabian symbols start at zero you count one up and use the number after what it shows on your chart? The osc Sabian symbol made a lot of sense for me personally. I do still relate to the house and sign position of dark moon though, surely they have a purpose and even can be used in relation to each other?
Thank you,
First, a note of caution, advice, you may already be aware, or maybe not.
I hope that you do know that there is a 100 word limit as to copying anything published and posting it here at the forum. It may be per post... I can't recall.
I get away with using the Sabian Symbols as Rudhyar published them because I use them for purely educational purposes and am cautious when I ever use them in any analysis of anyones natal chart. In fact I almost never do that anymore...that is give any analysis of anyone that is looking for such as I have to utilize them... there's just no other way I would do it. [so, maybe if you use that common disclaimer if you do go over 100 words, that you are doing so strictly for educational purposes. Although, as for any use as such for natal analysis, that is extremely frowned upon here at the forum. They don't want us members using someone elses interpretations. There are a number of reasons I can imagine for that and they might all actually be valid.]

As Dane spent so may years studying them, nearly 40, before He published his book on them, I'm not about to assume that I can rewrite any of his interpretations of them, as Dane was very studied in symbolism.
My clairvoyant friend, Clarisse Conner, even had me nix an arranged co-authorship about Sabian Symbols and Astrological Parts with a, so called, world renowned expert on the Sabian Symbols, as for the reason that person has taking that liberty them self, altering some of them as to where they then symbolized something different from that as they should.. Symbolism is a very delicate thing to mess with.

Yes, you "round up" the degree, as some put it. I explain all that in my "sticky" in this sub-forum titled "Proper Enumeration of the Degrees".
It's a common recurring problem most people have when addressing degrees and years too, for that matter. For example, when I was born it was 1953 but it was in the 20th century, not the 19th century The same thing as to the degrees of the Zodiac. They are numbered from 1 to 30 not 0 to 29, that's about the best I can do at explaining it.

I do like what you wrote about asteroids once being a planet as for the reason I believe that too. I asked my clairvoyant friend, Clarisse [as she can genuinely see, and doesn't know a thing about astrology, in fact doesn't want to know so as to remain unbiased as is possible to be at her best ability
to answer questions where-in knowledge of astrology might become a source of bias. One has to remain as "pure" and "clean" as a screen, as possible, upon which they "see" their answers.] as to whether it is true that the asteroids were once a planet, she said, "Yes". I then asked her how do we account for their influence then. She said "I see them operating like wormholes. Wormholes opening and then closing, here, and then there". My brother, whom is quite the scholar...can read and absorb a dozen books in the time it takes me to read one. He's the one that convinced me to take up the study and practice of astrology. He said He had read somewhere that the former planet was shattered by Lucifer for the purpose of confusing mankinds' psyche."

Unfortunately, He couldn't remember the source of that.
I suspect it may have been in the book "Hamlet's MIll" by George de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend but I have never been able to get very far in reading that work...way, waaaay, heavy on the brain stuff. George was professor of History of Science at MIT, and Hertha a scientist at Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universität, so, if you are unfamiliar with the book, then you might get an idea of just how "thick" it is. But, then again it may not be the source of that.

But that was more than half my lifetime ago, maybe I could handle reading it now?
I did ask Clarisse if the asteroids, the former planet, should then be consider to have influence and be included in the hierarchy of House and Planetary rulerships. She said yes, and hence why I don't ascribe to the traditional beliefs regarding any of that. The planet that was , is the ruler of the Signs Sagittarius and Pisces, Jupiter then becomes the ruler of Capricorn [which is Earth Above the Earth, and as such is of the Mountains, and you know it is the Sign of the goat, seagoat, yes, but there are Mountain Goats too. and Mountains are the result of expansive earth... all very Jupiterian.] and Jupiter then rules the Sign of Aquarius, [Air Above the Earth, the Water Bearing, symbolized by an "Angel pouring succor down from Heaven"...as it is the upper atmosphere that carries the rains, and without rain there would be no other water on the earth than other than the oceans. no rivers, no lakes...and Pisces is said to rule over rivers and lakes... what it really rules is the Water Above the Earth, the rain..and is next to Aries, Fire Above the Earth, and which rules electrical fire, e.g. lightning. And Jupiter ruling Aquarius makes so much more sense than believing that Saturn does. Jupiter governs brotherhood, empathy to some degree, while Saturn is known for being otherwise...allegedly cold and stern. In truth , Saturn is impartial, it is known as Chronos to the ancient Greeks, and Chronos is the timekeeper. It is the timekeeper at any corporation, factory, etc. that keeps the timecards, watches those who clock in and out, and hands out the paychecks on payday. That is Saturn, it doles out the karma earned, or, in a sense, might dock your pay as well. Saturn then should be considered to be the higher octave of the Sun and the Moon...and I know how odd that concept may seem to be to accept but it works. Every culture that has ever existed on this earth, that I know of, uses, or used, the Sun and, or, the Moon for their purposes of timekeeping.

I have a thread titled "A Runic Explanation for the Zodiac" in this forum. In it I have classified the planets into one of three categories, each. Above the Earth, On the Earth, and Below the Earth. It gives the initial understanding, or perception, that all known science can be derived from a complete and correct understanding of the Zodiac... of which I haven't yet, nor know of anyone that does... but, I believe that it will eventually be understood once again...as it was in a time of great antiquity. I have even managed to get a few men of science backgrounds interested enough in it to have asked me for a diagram I can sketch of it...just the 12 signs in a circle, with the three divisions. I also have it that half of the Zodiac needs to be understood as being of negative polarity and the other half positive...not the alternating schematic presently being adhered to..as that makes opposite Signs of the same polarity... just as like how Tesla figured out Edison direct current generators were inherently inefficient because they are un-natural... just as how He designed his alternating current generators as because they are in accordance with nature..as He put it, in more or less, so many words. You might like to read it?
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

I wish to recant, for now, what I wrote above, last night, about my now wanting to favor Osculating Lilith over Black Moon Lilith, as for the reason I can see where the symbolism from the Sabian Symbol for the 15th degree of Virgo can just as easily be taken by me to be symbolic in that manner.
Problem is I can't seem to get to a mental state of being objective in this... time will tell.. yet it still does make better sense that it would be the True path of Lilith that is the influence, Just as I have found that it is the True Nodes that are.

If I ever do figure it out for myself, as to my own satisfaction which applies to my natal chart...I post it here.

I should have tried getting the other Lilith's positions forthat Yeshu'a/Jesus natal chart of mine years ago before astrodienst started monkeying with that data... I don't trust them now, at least not anything that has to do with that time era.
They moved Pluto forward two full minutes of a degree so as to place it in the 2nd degree of Libra at the time...which invalidates the entire chart as for the reasons I had to acclaim it to be His chart.
The scientist at Jet Propulsion Labs that developed the program that astrodienst used to create their computer ephemeris did state that there was an, up to, 2 minute of a degree allowance for the position of Pluto when He created that program. Astrodienst took full advantage of that back around 2011-2012 [I forget exactly when]...but in truth they were already monkeying with it prior to that...as charts started varying a few months beforehand, Ye, their movement of Pluto's position DOESN'T have a ripple effect down through time...isn't that odd? That they somehow determined that what that program siad was Pluto's position 2017 years ago needed adjustment, but at no other time since shortly thereafter.

Yet NASA used the same program for all its space flights and satellites, and probes... and they used that very same program, with Pluto right where it was when first designed, to manage to get that recent flyby of Pluto by their probe so precisely where they wanted it... Two minutes of a degree at that distance from the Sun amount to... I don't have that figure handy, I did figure it out years ago though, even have it posted somewhere in this forum..or so I seem to recall posting it, but regardless of the exact distance it is millions, and millions, of miles in difference. Now that seems very odd, or remarkably lucky, that NASA was able to do that using a computer program that should have adjusted Plutos position by as much.

I'm rather certain I could figure this thing out using Yeshu'a's chart if I had those figures and got them 15 years ago, or at least more than 10 years ago... but not now. Maybe they didn't have that information even available back then?

I did discover something new and interesting attheir website last night while looking through that drop dpwn menu of theirs that has all the additional objects one may choose to include in a natal chart and that is something called the Great Christ Comet... which I've never heard of before. I found it to be extremely interesting that that comet is presently in the 12th degree of Aries, right where the Sun was the day He was born.

It's real slow moving though..I think it was around a three degree difference as to when the USA was founded in 1776...as I checked a few natal charts I have on file there So in 1776 it was conj. the same degree as where Uranus was when He was born.
Uranus has a huge influence on the USA, just as it does on me.
...and recall that 888 is said to be, by Gnostic/esoteric sources to be the number of"The Christ", same source that says 666 is that of the "Anti-Christ" ...
...and 3 Xs 888 = 1776
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
PierceTheVale, that's interesting, your Sabian symbol and that Lilith. Particularly if you read Lilith to include: your secret passion, your inner wild, that which must be acknowledged.

But AstroDienst says (and I had it wrong, AstroMatrix had it right) that the osculating Lilith IS the BML (o), the interpolated/natural Lilith is (i), and the asteroid is what I have clean over in Aquarius. So your IDs confused me a bit.

And you're right, I was using Lilith(i), not BML, in the above chart. I made a new one for all the Liliths.

Also weird: AstroDienst shows Priapus (interpolated/natural) opposite not the (i) Lilith, but the BML. You would think the two "interpolated/natural" points would be the ones opposite each other.

ANYway the Lilith I've used is what suddenly made a certain synastry chart make sense to me.

Attachment 84210
I know what your talking about. I had trouble, last night, figuring out what Astrodienst has published on their website about Lilith as well.
It hurt my brain, in fact. I think they've got some sort of error. It doesn't make sense to me either and my natal chart, that I had made at astrodinest about the time they claim to have changed the base computer program for their ephemeris, prints out osc LIlith, and not what it does nowadays.
I'm at just as much a loss to figure it all out as you are.

It's also one of the reasons I decided to recant my above statement as to favoring osc Lilith over the other, presently...
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

Here's my natal chart that I had made back in December 2014 and you should be able to clearly see the differences from what they now put out as to the manner in which they spell.

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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

Okay, silly me, I did figure it out before I retired last night, but didn't write it down or readily recall it after reading your question.
First off. osc Lilith is nowadays given as Lilith (o), Lilith (i) is the asteroid. The reason Priapus is not directly opposite Lilith (o) is because of that "osculation". It is constantly being distorted from being a perfectly predictable path because of other gravitational influences so once the Moon has left,has traveled from, the apogee by the time it gets to the perigee its path has been altered.
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

I'll have to keep a list of what various sites call the Liliths they calculate for me and compare. All I know is, the one in SAG, which AstroDienst calls (i) (for interpolated/natural vs. the (o) osculating BML) is the one so far to have explosive resonance for what it has said in that synastry chart.

Guess I can explore how each one reads to me in the natal.
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

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I'll have to keep a list of what various sites call the Liliths they calculate for me and compare. All I know is, the one in SAG, which AstroDienst calls (i) (for interpolated/natural vs. the (o) osculating BML) is the one so far to have explosive resonance for what it has said in that synastry chart.

Guess I can explore how each one reads to me in the natal.
It's entirely possible that the asteroid, so named, does have astrological effect. My clairvoyant friend, Clarisse, did say that all that she saw was "Wormholes, opening and closing, here, and then there."
..and thus if it does have effect, who knows what effect that might be? It is then, entirely possible, that it might be something so similar to that of Lilith that it will make sense in that way.

I have noticed that a number of astronomers have a knack for naming some of the asteroids very appropriately. I can only surmise that it must have something to do with the universal mind, which includes the "Akashic records". In the beginning of humankinds' existence on earth, we were at the pinnacle of knowledge....that is to say, during a Satya Yuga, by Vedic explanation.

Thanks for your observations.
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

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Thank you,
First, a note of caution, advice, you may already be aware, or maybe not.
I hope that you do know that there is a 100 word limit as to copying anything published and posting it here at the forum. It may be per post... I can't recall.
I get away with using the Sabian Symbols as Rudhyar published them because I use them for purely educational purposes and am cautious when I ever use them in any analysis of anyones natal chart. In fact I almost never do that anymore...that is give any analysis of anyone that is looking for such as I have to utilize them... there's just no other way I would do it. [so, maybe if you use that common disclaimer if you do go over 100 words, that you are doing so strictly for educational purposes. Although, as for any use as such for natal analysis, that is extremely frowned upon here at the forum. They don't want us members using someone elses interpretations. There are a number of reasons I can imagine for that and they might all actually be valid.]

As Dane spent so may years studying them, nearly 40, before He published his book on them, I'm not about to assume that I can rewrite any of his interpretations of them, as Dane was very studied in symbolism.
My clairvoyant friend, Clarisse Conner, even had me nix an arranged co-authorship about Sabian Symbols and Astrological Parts with a, so called, world renowned expert on the Sabian Symbols, as for the reason that person has taking that liberty them self, altering some of them as to where they then symbolized something different from that as they should.. Symbolism is a very delicate thing to mess with.

Yes, you "round up" the degree, as some put it. I explain all that in my "sticky" in this sub-forum titled "Proper Enumeration of the Degrees".
It's a common recurring problem most people have when addressing degrees and years too, for that matter. For example, when I was born it was 1953 but it was in the 20th century, not the 19th century The same thing as to the degrees of the Zodiac. They are numbered from 1 to 30 not 0 to 29, that's about the best I can do at explaining it.

I do like what you wrote about asteroids once being a planet as for the reason I believe that too. I asked my clairvoyant friend, Clarisse [as she can genuinely see, and doesn't know a thing about astrology, in fact doesn't want to know so as to remain unbiased as is possible to be at her best ability
to answer questions where-in knowledge of astrology might become a source of bias. One has to remain as "pure" and "clean" as a screen, as possible, upon which they "see" their answers.] as to whether it is true that the asteroids were once a planet, she said, "Yes". I then asked her how do we account for their influence then. She said "I see them operating like wormholes. Wormholes opening and then closing, here, and then there". My brother, whom is quite the scholar...can read and absorb a dozen books in the time it takes me to read one. He's the one that convinced me to take up the study and practice of astrology. He said He had read somewhere that the former planet was shattered by Lucifer for the purpose of confusing mankinds' psyche."

Unfortunately, He couldn't remember the source of that.
I suspect it may have been in the book "Hamlet's MIll" by George de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend but I have never been able to get very far in reading that work...way, waaaay, heavy on the brain stuff. George was professor of History of Science at MIT, and Hertha a scientist at Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universität, so, if you are unfamiliar with the book, then you might get an idea of just how "thick" it is. But, then again it may not be the source of that.

But that was more than half my lifetime ago, maybe I could handle reading it now?
I did ask Clarisse if the asteroids, the former planet, should then be consider to have influence and be included in the hierarchy of House and Planetary rulerships. She said yes, and hence why I don't ascribe to the traditional beliefs regarding any of that. The planet that was , is the ruler of the Signs Sagittarius and Pisces, Jupiter then becomes the ruler of Capricorn [which is Earth Above the Earth, and as such is of the Mountains, and you know it is the Sign of the goat, seagoat, yes, but there are Mountain Goats too. and Mountains are the result of expansive earth... all very Jupiterian.] and Jupiter then rules the Sign of Aquarius, [Air Above the Earth, the Water Bearing, symbolized by an "Angel pouring succor down from Heaven"...as it is the upper atmosphere that carries the rains, and without rain there would be no other water on the earth than other than the oceans. no rivers, no lakes...and Pisces is said to rule over rivers and lakes... what it really rules is the Water Above the Earth, the rain..and is next to Aries, Fire Above the Earth, and which rules electrical fire, e.g. lightning. And Jupiter ruling Aquarius makes so much more sense than believing that Saturn does. Jupiter governs brotherhood, empathy to some degree, while Saturn is known for being otherwise...allegedly cold and stern. In truth , Saturn is impartial, it is known as Chronos to the ancient Greeks, and Chronos is the timekeeper. It is the timekeeper at any corporation, factory, etc. that keeps the timecards, watches those who clock in and out, and hands out the paychecks on payday. That is Saturn, it doles out the karma earned, or, in a sense, might dock your pay as well. Saturn then should be considered to be the higher octave of the Sun and the Moon...and I know how odd that concept may seem to be to accept but it works. Every culture that has ever existed on this earth, that I know of, uses, or used, the Sun and, or, the Moon for their purposes of timekeeping.

I have a thread titled "A Runic Explanation for the Zodiac" in this forum. In it I have classified the planets into one of three categories, each. Above the Earth, On the Earth, and Below the Earth. It gives the initial understanding, or perception, that all known science can be derived from a complete and correct understanding of the Zodiac... of which I haven't yet, nor know of anyone that does... but, I believe that it will eventually be understood once again...as it was in a time of great antiquity. I have even managed to get a few men of science backgrounds interested enough in it to have asked me for a diagram I can sketch of it...just the 12 signs in a circle, with the three divisions. I also have it that half of the Zodiac needs to be understood as being of negative polarity and the other half positive...not the alternating schematic presently being adhered to..as that makes opposite Signs of the same polarity... just as like how Tesla figured out Edison direct current generators were inherently inefficient because they are un-natural... just as how He designed his alternating current generators as because they are in accordance with nature..as He put it, in more or less, so many words. You might like to read it?
I had heard of the rule for copying sources but wasn't aware of the 100 word cut off point so I'll keep that in mind when copying this next part.

The author does not go into detail about how she came to realize Lilith was a supernova but says she was 'enlightened.' What else is interesting is her description of her journey in discovering the nature of Lilith, which was confusing and long, but in-keeping with the nature of shadow work:

"Plagued by paradoxes, my efforts to bring the astrology of the Black Moon to light twisted my mind inside out. As a result, this book has died and been reborn countless times. A book charting the cycles of transpersonal “death” and “rebirth” probably could not be written any other way. It has been a long, hard journey with this dark Goddess. But, as it inevitably happens when we walk through darkness, I emerged from it with the gift of clearer understanding."
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Re: Lillith: Understanding its nature and Sabian interpretation

Here is the part she descirbes Lilith being the asteroid belt:

"The early, esoteric writings of Ivy Goldstein Jacobson describe the Black Moon as an etheric second moon. Others speculate that it affects us from another dimension. But one day I was enlightened: the planet is not there now, but it was there in the past. I believe that the Black Moon is the energetic remains of the shattered planet that is now known as the Asteroid Belt. As it happens, the one planet in our solar system that is no longer actually a planet could be the most powerful of them all. This is because it is unconscious and anything that remains unknown or hidden, by its very nature, holds power. The Black Moon encapsulates what Carl Jung called our “shadow side.” It represents the unconscious part of the psyche that drives many of our choices and actions. Our lack of awareness of it keeps us trapped in cycles of self-defeating behavior."

About Lilith and the shadow and the nature of the journey into it, she says the nature of Lilith is both light and dark with the motto for the dark moon being, 'strife followed by reward,' just like your journey of discovery and the nature of shadow work in general
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