Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

I understand that you were giving an example.

Please don't take what is intended as a comment as a criticism.

There are many things that can show "empathy". That's the trick in chart interpretation, to find those things, even though no cookbook mentions them.

When we say (as an example) that a combust Mercury indicates a poor listener, we are promoting a cookbook approach to chart interpretation. Yes, I agree that the possibility is there...a combust Mercury may be one indication of "poor listening." But it is insufficient and not a reliable indicator in and of itself,

We can look at many threads in this forum, such as:
"Aspects indicating people who don't listen"
"Which aspects show lesbianism"
"Depression in the horoscope".....

And what we see over and over is the "cookbook mentality" which attempts to ascribe certain characteristics to specific aspects or positions. I am simply trying to point out that this approach to chart interpretation is simplistic, reductionist, and myopic...and doesn't work very well.

I recently posted to the thread titled "I hate my birth chart." (I was not happy with myself due to the harshness of the post... but, that notwithstanding, I think it is a positive contribution). I first referred to experts in psychiatry to provide a definition (symptoms of) of the psychopathic personality. I then found that the chart as a whole showed that these symptoms, all of them, were present in the chart. This does not involve "looking for" indicators of psychopathy in the chart, but rather in understanding and realizing that the chart does in fact contain a constellation of indications (character traits) that as a whole point toward the condition. This approach to astrology demands that the astrologer be aware of the constellation of symptoms that constitute any given condition and that the diagnosis of that condition results from a thorough reading of the chart as a whole first, rather than seeking to diagnose a condition based on one or a couple of supposed indicators, a method that gives very questionable results in most cases.

I have Venus trine Jupiter in my own chart. Read any cookbook description of this aspect. Nothing of what the books say is true of my life. The reasons for this are quite clear in my chart-as-a-whole, but no textbook on astrology will explain this anomaly...the student would read the cookbook and make pronouncements about my life that are simply not true, not pertinent, not useful. That is the problem with the "Which aspects indicate _x___?" approach; it doesn't really work. There are too many exceptions to the rule, too many modifying factors.

greybeard,

"Indicators" are still used in that approach, but it requires more qualifiers. I think that's where the big-picture complexity comes from: what if you have two conflicting indicators, for example? Well, you could say that it means astrology is worthless or conflicts with itself; or you could realize that people often conflict with themselves and show such complexity.

To take the cookbook analogy... it's like saying that gathering your ingredients for your recipe is not a useful method for baking a cake because the cake does not taste like an egg, or like flour, or like butter. But you still need to figure out that you need those things to make it... and in astrology you also need to know what placements might indicate even if they don't cause a particular trait in themselves. So I find these threads useful in that respect.

Unless you have a completely different, secret method of figuring these things out.

Agreed, these threads can be useful...

Provided we are aware that the goal is to learn to see a chart as a whole
And I'm afraid that gets kicked off to the side of the road and into the weeds.

See Zarathu's thread "Two kinds of astrology."\

Most of the new (beginning & intermediate) students in this community (I would guess) can't calculate the Ascendant and house cusps. Take them out on a beautiful starry night and ask them to correlate the horoscope in their hand and the sky above their head and you'll get a blank stare. Sorry, but those skills are important. Astrology is based on the motions of the heavens.

When I was teaching English, one of my tasks at the beginning of a new class was to locate those folks who had studied English before, so that I could "unteach" them -- clean off the slate as it were. What's the point in developing bad habits of thought? And that's what this way of looking at astrology does.

Ebenia said:

One of the most interesting cases is my friend who has Mercury at 0 degrees Leo on the ASC and opposite the Moon and square Pluto. Mercury makes positive aspects to Mars and Jupiter. He is the most talented poet and he makes the most amazing poems and he is amazing listener for other people's problems....BUT when it comes to HIM, he does not listen to ANYTHING. He just mirrors it back to the other person and says that "you only see that in me because of yourself" and even though to some extent that is true, that attitude seriously impairs his ability to grow in relationships and in himself. He can keep a light relationship and has a wide circle of friends and many admirers, but close relationships are impossible with him because he is unwilling to question himself in relationship to anything.

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Wow, that is so me with a couple twists. Relationships and friendships develop fairly easily for me once they're started. It's getting them started and then being able to feel as though I am not the only one putting effort into sustaining them that's the problem.

I am very able to listen to advice from others when it comes to me. That's how I know what the polar opposite follow-through I will most likely use will be. It's not a very healthy roundabout way of self-growth and nearly always causes trust issues. My closest friends even tend to change their minds regarding their advice for me very shortly after I change my mind to take their considerations to heart without telling them I have done so. It's become maddening to the point I've begun to cut people off from giving me advice and swayed towards as hermit a lifestyle as being a father will allow.

My older daughter is old enough to feel secure to offer advice (and she likes reading deeply and informing others of what's best), and there are no mirroring issues between she and I in this regard.

Mars, Jupiter, Sun all at sequential critical 29 deg. in Cancer, Leo, Virgo respectively. Mercury conjunct Venus and Moon in 11th house Libra. ASC conjunct Uranus.

I was discussing this thread with someone and came to a thought: It might be better to phrase this question in light of differing types of "non-listening" presented. Everyone here so far has talked about a slightly different listening problem or even differing communication styles (I think everyone actually has listening problems, just manifesting differently and to varying degrees).

If we're opening up to the broader question of "difficult communication" with others, some other things should be taken into account (and mostly is, but it seems worthwhile to point it out directly): What situations do these types of communications occur in, and with what people? What subjects cause difficulty (we've cited "themselves" and "others" mostly).

This conversation seems to be mainly Mercury centered, which brings in more ideas than just how a person listens... but also how they speak, think and perceive. That could provide more clues for which placements are affected by looking at why listening isn't occurring in a particular instance.

I was thinking of it in a different way.

To say that someone "doesn't listen" is a judgement. Everyone listens sometimes. So the reason why different people have taken a different approach is because that phrase can encompass so many different things, & each of the charts and stories mentioned has illustrated a different scenario, all of which are useful, but it's kind of hard to know what the OP was really asking about.

On the issue of whether we should take individual indicators separately or look at the chart as a whole, well obviously a chart as a whole shows the overall picture.

As greybeard has pointed out there may be other things that contradict specific aspects or indicators and it is good to be aware of that.

However it is necessary to know which aspects (or other indicators) might show a specific trait if we are to take account of all the things shown in a chart.

I don't think we need to get hung up on worrying that people will see an aspect and automatically think that it means one specific thing. Even cookbook explanations would probably not say that a specific aspect predestined "not listening", for example some people have mentioned mercury in leo (I have this too!) and textbooks teach us to combine the keywords for the planets with the signs (or with other planets) to come up with explanations, so even beginning students would know that mercury in leo can mean alternately fixed opinions, self-absorbed thinking, creative writing, dramatic speech, playful pranks, children's stories etc. etc. etc. we could go on for days listing all the possibilities indicated by a specific placement.

Even the kind of astrology books or sites that might mention it as relating to not listening are very careful not to say that it definitely means this. They don't want to alienate their potential customers. Instead they say things like "might lead to...", "gives a tendency to...", "can in some cases..."

But placements are one of the things to consider.

Along with various aspects, for example mercury in a difficult aspect to mars/saturn/jupiter/uranus/neptune/pluto.

& which houses and signs are emphasised, for example more 7th house planets would focus on relating to and considering others which naturally involves some degree of listening.

The way to counter giving too much focus to a specific aspect is to look at charts as a whole. Several people in this thread have posted charts which illustrate their points and which belong to people who have "not listened" in various ways. I think this is a very useful approach.

Also there is a general theme on the forum at the moment that people are being to cookbooky and not holistic enough. I would humbly suggest that perhaps the way to deal with this is to begin threads asking people to comment on specific charts so we are dealing with charts as a whole not specifics, if that is what you prefer.

As for why beginners in astrology can't calculate ascendants I think that is probably more to do with the fact that now we have computer programmes and free software to do the calculating. In the old days learning to draw up a chart was one of the early things that students learnt, now we don't have to, we can jump to the meaty psychological stuff, unless we are really interested in learning where it all came from and what the physical basis for it is.

& I'm aware this has been a bit more of a rant than contributing to the discussion - consider it an example of someone with a fixed mercury, in the 11th (a fixed house sort of), conjunct the sun.

junoisuppose said:

& I'm aware this has been a bit more of a rant than contributing to the discussion - consider it an example of someone with a fixed mercury, in the 11th (a fixed house sort of), conjunct the sun.

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I feel you. Be glad it isn't in the 3rd house!

Definitely contributing, by the way, at least to me.

Yes, it's because of computers.

greybeard said:

Yes, it's because of computers.

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Let's nuke Uranus out of orbit, then

greybeard said:

Yes, it's because of computers.

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Computers never listen.

To know more about this you can try Numerology or your friends' sun sign to know their characteristics.

The Aquarius mercury is bang on. I have an Aquarius mother who drives me apes. She has a tendency to zone out and avoid people's opinions. At other times, she can be very interested in what you're saying so she can wrap it around her mind later. Whatever she reads into it, she will believe without a doubt and then can be so stubborn about it - as if she never heard what I've said in the first place! Leo mercury's value their pride and reputation so if you're saying something to devalue it, they're not having it, lol.

I can lend some personal insight on my lack of hearing. Firstly, psychologically my mother tended to ignore my voiced concerns in my childhood, (Virgo asc) so I believe I have picked up this trait. Natally I have:

Mercury conjunct Saturn in Pisces, 7th house. I have a bad habit of getting verbally reticent and caught up in sometimes deciphering my slow, unformulated ideas. This and I can ignore the thoughts of others, because I instinctively know what they're saying isn't what I perceive or need to inquire into. I pick up the facts with my gut and trust them. I know things because I know them. End of story. The 7th house placement makes no sense to me, however. If I get my perceptions from other people, why don't I trust them?

Mercury square Jupiter in saggitarius! This is a big one for not listening - I speak in a verbose manner. Since I tend to voice way too much or want to for that matter, I can appear to be not listening at all - which is true to some extent; mercury in Pisces is very unfocused. I can hear what you say and not take the time to process it because I am hasty and blunt (Jupiter). Jupiter can also come off as dogmatic, which makes conversing even more difficult.

As an aside, mercury in Gemini is also a huge culprit for not listening. They don't zone out, they just think too much. In contrast to Virgo mercury's, they often talk in a glib manner (no offense). I know a Gemini mercury opposite Jupiter and square his mars in Virgo. He talks non-stop in an awkwardly superior manner, even yells over people. Can never admit he's wrong even if it's plainly obvious. Negative aspects like this annoy and endear at the same time, since you know they don't hear you but you want to hear what they have to say, anyways.

I've gone on a long tangent,sorry. Scorpio's are also known for failing to listen if they don't trust you. I have mercury trine pluto as well, though wide. If someone I don't trust tries to give me advice, I just shake my head and ignore it, lol.

Now I may sound awful now but I assure you, I have my days.

My wife often asks my advice, and then often does the opposite. She wants to make sure that she makes the right decision for her, and she knows that in many cases my choice is the wrong one for her. So she finds one good choice to avoid.

I help her decision process immensely.

Zarathu said:

My wife often asks my advice, and then often does the opposite. She wants to make sure that she makes the right decision for her, and she knows that in many cases my choice is the wrong one for her. So she finds one good choice to avoid.

I help her decision process immensely.

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Hahaha!

"Which napkins should we use?"

"The Blue ones."

"Red ones it is!"

Of course there are alos the times when she doesn't listen, and she should.

Like when I got bad acid reflux 8 years ago which wouldn't go away for nothing, and I finally be game a VEGAN and it went away completely. She has the same problem but has kept denying it until she ended up with very serious medical issues, and had to go on lots of nasty invasive diagnostics, which still didn't solve her problem.

So she decided finally to take my advice and now all the nasty medical issues have gone away along with her acid reflux. I wish she had listened to me 8 years ago.

Iced8Ace said:

The Aquarius mercury is bang on. I have an Aquarius mother who drives me apes. She has a tendency to zone out and avoid people's opinions. At other times, she can be very interested in what you're saying so she can wrap it around her mind later. Whatever she reads into it, she will believe without a doubt and then can be so stubborn about it - as if she never heard what I've said in the first place! Leo mercury's value their pride and reputation so if you're saying something to devalue it, they're not having it, lol.

I can lend some personal insight on my lack of hearing. Firstly, psychologically my mother tended to ignore my voiced concerns in my childhood, (Virgo asc) so I believe I have picked up this trait. Natally I have:

Mercury conjunct Saturn in Pisces, 7th house. I have a bad habit of getting verbally reticent and caught up in sometimes deciphering my slow, unformulated ideas. This and I can ignore the thoughts of others, because I instinctively know what they're saying isn't what I perceive or need to inquire into. I pick up the facts with my gut and trust them. I know things because I know them. End of story. The 7th house placement makes no sense to me, however. If I get my perceptions from other people, why don't I trust them?

Mercury square Jupiter in saggitarius! This is a big one for not listening - I speak in a verbose manner. Since I tend to voice way too much or want to for that matter, I can appear to be not listening at all - which is true to some extent; mercury in Pisces is very unfocused. I can hear what you say and not take the time to process it because I am hasty and blunt (Jupiter). Jupiter can also come off as dogmatic, which makes conversing even more difficult.

As an aside, mercury in Gemini is also a huge culprit for not listening. They don't zone out, they just think too much. In contrast to Virgo mercury's, they often talk in a glib manner (no offense). I know a Gemini mercury opposite Jupiter and square his mars in Virgo. He talks non-stop in an awkwardly superior manner, even yells over people. Can never admit he's wrong even if it's plainly obvious. Negative aspects like this annoy and endear at the same time, since you know they don't hear you but you want to hear what they have to say, anyways.

I've gone on a long tangent,sorry. Scorpio's are also known for failing to listen if they don't trust you. I have mercury trine pluto as well, though wide. If someone I don't trust tries to give me advice, I just shake my head and ignore it, lol.

Now I may sound awful now but I assure you, I have my days.

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Haha, thats me. If a b*tchn*gga/boyfriend/friend dont listen, he gonna get either jumped or i kick his *** to the curb. If you cant bow down to a Leo moon woman, its over c'est fini! No mas, Eza te! Then ill diss you in 5 languages while you at it.

Aqu' Mercury 5H opp LEO MOON!

I know someone who talks and talks a LOT as in a lot but doesn't listen to other people,for him what he says is only the absolute truth.
He has gemini ascendant and his 3rd house of communication has sun in it in the sign of virgo.His mercury is in virgo 4th house is squaring his ascendant.