Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology > Astrology and Psychology

Astrology and Psychology For interesting discussions on psychological meanings and deeper implications in natal charts between members passionated by both psychology and astrology.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Unread 10-06-2012, 06:37 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Jupiter is a big old planet. Huge gravity field.

A few years back an unlucky comet was grabbed by Jupiter's gravity and crashed into the giant gas ball, never to be seen again. That just doesn't seem fair to me.

I met a little sardine swimming happily in the ocean one day. Suddenly a big barracuda darted out of the shadows and the sardine disappeared before I could say barracuda. That was so unfair.

I am getting up a petition to God demanding "Fairness and Equity in the Distribution of Destinies." Maybe if enough of us sign it we can get a hearing in the High Court. Until then I suppose we'll just have to get along with things the way they are.

Reply With Quote
  #27  
Unread 10-06-2012, 06:44 AM
tautomer's Avatar
tautomer tautomer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Oregon
Posts: 217
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

If you're going to speak in metaphor like that I am not going to learn a thing. It's largely hard for me to grasp, or at least pull away from what you intend. In particular from you because your style. If you want an "excuse", it's because I have aspergers.
__________________
It's all elemental.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Unread 10-06-2012, 06:58 AM
gen6k gen6k is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 733
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

"There's a really big, weird reality going on outside that has nothing to do with what or how humans think."

people that believe in freewill are more radical than the current understanding of the paradigm.

there is room for freewill still. no category has to be or is absolute. robert hand thinks that there are 4 main divisions actually.

fate, necessity, providence, free will

its like potential degrees of manifestation.

now fate is determinism. necessity is something like an intact (potential) biological response, having to do something. providence is something more concrete in the mind for example falling in love and having it root in the mind and alter the mind. free will is basically the creative animorphism over the potentials. its the reversal of cause-and-effect on to the superconscious mind.

so what is weird about the recursion of creative abstraction and control is that it turns in to biological instinctual archetypes and eventually just vacuum type elusive mechanics. which means that there could be something beyond the body and behind the mechanics, somewhat of a super-archaic potentiality in certain forms, a self-recursive type of form that is like a warped puppet on a string of the situation.

its hard to piece all the world-views together in to a coherent whole. like from the biological perspective its just swift networks of processes and a cancer patient gets it exactly, the whole irrationality of the situation, but then the minister is just like its God. the cancer patient understands that also.

i like the whole karmic thing, its a type of logic that came out of the situation of this inherent paradox, its not too far from the mysticism of string theorists. maybe from a particular it is impossible to find out what the "real" meaning of a life is. even if there is a sense of being part of a bigger peice or a more coherent logic. i do agree in trying to go "uptrending" instead of "downtrending" within the chart. even the logic of karma and reincarnation is fragmentary within the verti-lateralness of deconstruction and construction. which is an ancient metaphysical duality that could be somewhere as a physical function...why does this karmic wheel create certain arbitrary lives even if they were this or that before.

well the perceptual inclusion of reading ones own chart as fate is that they do not know their fate around the corner of reading it its like a perceptual twist.

going back to the original quotation, we dont know the structure of anything past a certain point, so its hard to see if time is "linear" or a "circular" process or any shape for that matter.

i was thinking about the implications of geometrical planes. euclidean geometry is based on a completely flat dimension for example. a completely flat dimension is imaginary at least from our perspective, so the philosophical implications of building non-euclidean geometry is that we dont know the foundation of any geometry. what does the concept of no-flatness do to all our ideas on "linearity"?

the thing about free will is that "knowing something" is implying a certain order, if i say yes i know i have free will as a program, it contains several irreducibilities in whatever doctrine is being played as such. God gave us free will, but "he" knows everything.

Last edited by gen6k; 10-06-2012 at 07:27 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Unread 10-06-2012, 07:37 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Of course there is room for growth.

When I say "accept yourself as you are" I mean accept the fact that your head and your gut seem to be disconnected. And by accept, I mean look at this situation as "ok" (for today). What you have basically indicated in this post is that you love your head and hate your gut (because you can't control it, predict it, etc).

From posts of yours I have read previously, I get the impression you fight with yourself a lot, and that you attempt to "improve yourself" by force of will.

When I was in my early 20s I got a job in construction. I had done very well in high school geometry and thought that I should apply all the glorious stuff I had learned to my new trade. I would try to figure out how to make things fit, how to build them, their dimensions and forms, with my high-falutin' geometry.

And then I discovered string. String is simple, direct, easy, quick and accurate. No fuss, no muss. And so my geometry book got dusty.

I think you are trying to geometrize your life when you could be using string.

When I was younger I wondered "why" this and "why" that? and psychoanalyzed myself, and cursed my fate and those lousy parents I got, and read books on philosophy and religion and psychology and..... trying to figure it all out. That is geometrizing.

String is where you meet a situation in this very moment, and observe both yourself and others (and the situation) very carefully, and then behave in a way (respond to the situation) that will lead you where you want to go. Behavior is the key. What do you DO in this moment? It does not take a strong will; it requires only a simple choice: "How do I want to act in this immediate circumstance? What sort of action will lead me where I want to go?" That's not hard to do (it takes a little practice and is clumsy at first) and does not require a lot of energy. And it is a very powerful and effective way to change ourselves. That is what my experience has taught me. I can only speak for myself.

Over the course of my life I have set different goals for myself, basically along the lines of "What do I want to be when I grow up?"

When I was 21 I decided I would become a millionaire by the age of 24. At age 22 I saw that my plan had little chance of success. So I changed my goal. I decided that instead of becoming a millionaire I would become a failure. And I have succeeded at that beyond my wildest dreams. I am a happy man.

My life has been rootless. I have never held a job, or lived in the same house, for over 2 years. My relationships have been disasters. I am an alcoholic. I have always lived in poverty, was "homeless" for a very long time. I carried a lot of anger for a very long time. Etc, etc....

And through all of that, wanting to better myself...I could not. No matter how much will I applied...nothing I tried worked any change. I had no power over myself.

Then one day I learned the power of surrender. I gave up. I said to my God, "God, I am trying to be a good boy, but can't. Guess you will just have to spank me. Do with me what you will." I gave up; I surrendered. I raised the white flag. I accepted myself as a failure.

When I turned 50 I sat down on a rock. I said to myself, "Self, you have messed up the first 50 years...What are you going to do with the rest of it?" Hmmm. Sitting on a rock is good for thinking. And then I found what I wanted. What I am going to do with the rest of my life is....Be kind to other people. That is actually what I decided. So I set about learning how to be kind. I wasn't all that successful at first, but with time I got a little better at it. Other people had been kind to me, and it made me feel good, and feel like life was good in spite of all the mean people. Just seemed like something good to do.

A few years back I had another little "sittin' on a rock" session with myself. I was looking for a new goal. It will probably be my last goal. And so...what I want to be when I grow up is Love. I don't want to be loving, or give love, or be loved....I want to become love itself, on two feet. It doesn't matter to me whether I reach the goal or not; but I want to go in that direction, get a little closer every day. Just seems like a good thing to do.

And the way I go about doing it is by watching how I behave in every little passing circumstance. And it works.

It's sort of like navigating a boat on the ocean. You notice you're a bit off course, so you just turn the wheel a little to port and get back on course again. Easy does it. When a storm blows up, just turn her head into the seas; you can get back on course when it blows over.

If you try to force yourself into some mold it will never work. Been there, done that. Surrender is a very powerful thing. If you surrender the war is over. Peace follows.

If you are at war with yourself there can be no peace. If you try to conquer yourself...conquest is achieved through war. Therefore, if you try to conquer yourself there can be no peace. Obviously, this is not the fruitful path. We must find another way. In the words of that old song, "Gonna lay down my sword and shield, down by the riverside...."

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." In every situation you encounter, put yourself in the other guy's shoes. Ask yourself, "If I were him/her, and he/she were me, how would I want them to treat me?" If you do that, and treat them that way, you can't go very far off the path. Pretty simple. And what you sow you reap. And that's a fact.

Instead of worrying about yourself so much, pay attention to how you treat others. Watch what happens when you do...pretty amazing.

Last edited by greybeard; 10-06-2012 at 07:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to greybeard For This Useful Post:
Blackempress (10-06-2012), IleneK (10-07-2012), Peregrine_Moon (10-06-2012), tsmall (10-07-2012)
  #30  
Unread 10-06-2012, 07:42 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Good grief. Four something-or-anothers....Fate, providence....????

I get up in the morning. I eat. I wash my face. I hug my dogs. Maybe I go have coffee with a friend. I take care of my chores and errands. Etc.

Life is simple if we let it be.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Unread 10-06-2012, 08:49 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dairyland
Posts: 2,005
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I am getting up a petition to God demanding "Fairness and Equity in the Distribution of Destinies." Maybe if enough of us sign it we can get a hearing in the High Court. Until then I suppose we'll just have to get along with things the way they are.

But what if there is no super human celestial influence and life IS just a matter of following and living as an organism through the natural laws of nature as best one can? From dust we came and to dust we shall return. That's it.

I feel saddened for you that you appear to have a life in which you have chosen to accept and live through a philosophy that must take life as it comes...as it is served to you.... and you must sit back and do nothing about it. A puppet on a string that can place blame upon other than its own (non) actions? Some might call it selfless ego, others humility, yet others hubris.

I am in total agreement with you that, as said elsewhere and from the astrological perspective, life appears to be 'fated' through the manner of progressions and directions occuring to the natal chart. Yet can there be no personal intervention through choices made and path taken? Metaphorically taking either a boat, train, plane, using Shank's pony, or all means of travel to reach a destination implied in the chart? Whatever choice is made produces its own effect, yet the ripples produced by a stone hitting water are wide and far-reaching in their manifestation. It's always maintained that the planetary functions are neutral in their action and do not compel. If there is no compulsion, there can be no fated one-way system in reaching the destination, can there?

I don't always find or have the right words to express what I mean (Mercury retro. in 9th?), yet agree with so much of what has been said by others.

Edit: I was writing during your life story post, Greyboard. You do seem contented with your lot.
Telephone rang, so earlier edit went wrong! (no smiley icon available).

Last edited by Frisiangal; 10-06-2012 at 09:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Unread 10-06-2012, 09:28 AM
Saturnian Saturnian is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 730
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moog View Post
Why shouldn't we? If everything is predetermined, you can't do anything about it anyway
You can always commit suicide.It's easy and free.All it takes is determination,wait no...hopelessness and you're on it.
If you don't believe you YOU can change your life as in improve it when it is depressing and unhappy then probably...you'd be considering suicide.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Unread 10-06-2012, 09:39 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54,643
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturnian View Post
You can always commit suicide.
Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by !4C View Post
It's easy and free.
Free? It's not free of consequences - every act has a consequence
Quote:
Originally Posted by !4C View Post
All it takes is determination,wait no...hopelessness and you're on it.
If you don't believe you YOU can change your life as in improve it when it is depressing and unhappy then probably...you'd be considering suicide.
Not necessarily. Particularly if you consider the possibility of reincarnation
Quote:
Originally Posted by !4C View Post
If you believe in reincarnation then you can at least accept that everyone takes their turn
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Unread 10-06-2012, 09:58 AM
Saturnian Saturnian is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 730
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Not necessarily. Particularly if you consider the possibility of reincarnation
I don't consider it.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Unread 10-06-2012, 11:43 AM
Moog's Avatar
Moog Moog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: In The Litter Tray
Posts: 2,701
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturnian View Post
You can always commit suicide.It's easy and free.All it takes is determination,wait no...hopelessness and you're on it.
I've been there, and no I couldn't actually. Your results may vary.
__________________
My Chart, Tropical
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Unread 10-06-2012, 12:21 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54,643
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturnian View Post
I don't consider it.
Many people don't consider it
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Unread 10-06-2012, 12:28 PM
chris10's Avatar
chris10 chris10 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Paradise
Posts: 1,323
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Jupiter is a big old planet. Huge gravity field.

A few years back an unlucky comet was grabbed by Jupiter's gravity and crashed into the giant gas ball, never to be seen again. That just doesn't seem fair to me.

I met a little sardine swimming happily in the ocean one day. Suddenly a big barracuda darted out of the shadows and the sardine disappeared before I could say barracuda. That was so unfair.

I am getting up a petition to God demanding "Fairness and Equity in the Distribution of Destinies." Maybe if enough of us sign it we can get a hearing in the High Court. Until then I suppose we'll just have to get along with things the way they are.
I've contemplated on Fairness and Equity but I have never reached a conclusion as to why things are the way they are...
Why should a child born in Africa lack food and water while a child born elsewhere live in abundance?
greybeard
count me in for signing that petition...
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Unread 10-06-2012, 12:38 PM
chris10's Avatar
chris10 chris10 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Paradise
Posts: 1,323
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturnian View Post
You can always commit suicide.It's easy and free.All it takes is determination,wait no...hopelessness and you're on it.
If you don't believe you YOU can change your life as in improve it when it is depressing and unhappy then probably...you'd be considering suicide.
My friend's father committed suicide ... easy and free?
I don't think so...
Determination? well he succeeded!!!!
Well No, he didn't believe He could change his life,
He Couldn't change his life...
He had been unemployed for over 2 years, he had mortgage payments and he and his family were about to become Homeless...
(I started a thread on this, his suicide shows up in his daughter's Solar Return)
You know sometimes Circumstances can be too overwhelming, sometimes WE don't have the power to change our lives, we CAN try to make the best even under difficult circumstances but we are NOT God, we are not so powerful as we sometimes think we are.



I have checked this man's chart.
Too much Neptune all over the place, hard neptune aspects, weak Saturn.
I think a weak saturn shows that when faced with difficulties, he just couldn't cope.

Last edited by chris10; 10-06-2012 at 12:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Unread 10-06-2012, 01:04 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54,643
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
I've contemplated on Fairness and Equity but I have never reached a conclusion as to why things are the way they are... Why should a child born in Africa lack food and water while a child born elsewhere live in abundance?
Greed
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Unread 10-06-2012, 01:15 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54,643
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
You know sometimes Circumstances can be too overwhelming,
Not for everyone... others facing similar circumstances make very different choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
...sometimes WE don't have the power to change our lives,
On the contrary, the act of terminating one's current lifetime is an act that permanently changes a life - that's exercising power to 'change'
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
...we CAN try to make the best even under difficult circumstances but we are NOT God, we are not so powerful as we sometimes think we are...
Really? But apparently sufficiently powerful to carry out a decision to terminate a life though - thinking to 'escape' those 'difficult circumstances'...
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Unread 10-06-2012, 03:11 PM
Moog's Avatar
Moog Moog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: In The Litter Tray
Posts: 2,701
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

I want to be part of this rainbow
__________________
My Chart, Tropical
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Unread 10-06-2012, 03:26 PM
chris10's Avatar
chris10 chris10 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Paradise
Posts: 1,323
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Of course there is room for growth.

When I say "accept yourself as you are" I mean accept the fact that your head and your gut seem to be disconnected. And by accept, I mean look at this situation as "ok" (for today). What you have basically indicated in this post is that you love your head and hate your gut (because you can't control it, predict it, etc).

From posts of yours I have read previously, I get the impression you fight with yourself a lot, and that you attempt to "improve yourself" by force of will.

When I was in my early 20s I got a job in construction. I had done very well in high school geometry and thought that I should apply all the glorious stuff I had learned to my new trade. I would try to figure out how to make things fit, how to build them, their dimensions and forms, with my high-falutin' geometry.

And then I discovered string. String is simple, direct, easy, quick and accurate. No fuss, no muss. And so my geometry book got dusty.

I think you are trying to geometrize your life when you could be using string.

When I was younger I wondered "why" this and "why" that? and psychoanalyzed myself, and cursed my fate and those lousy parents I got, and read books on philosophy and religion and psychology and..... trying to figure it all out. That is geometrizing.

String is where you meet a situation in this very moment, and observe both yourself and others (and the situation) very carefully, and then behave in a way (respond to the situation) that will lead you where you want to go. Behavior is the key. What do you DO in this moment? It does not take a strong will; it requires only a simple choice: "How do I want to act in this immediate circumstance? What sort of action will lead me where I want to go?" That's not hard to do (it takes a little practice and is clumsy at first) and does not require a lot of energy. And it is a very powerful and effective way to change ourselves. That is what my experience has taught me. I can only speak for myself.

Over the course of my life I have set different goals for myself, basically along the lines of "What do I want to be when I grow up?"

When I was 21 I decided I would become a millionaire by the age of 24. At age 22 I saw that my plan had little chance of success. So I changed my goal. I decided that instead of becoming a millionaire I would become a failure. And I have succeeded at that beyond my wildest dreams. I am a happy man.

My life has been rootless. I have never held a job, or lived in the same house, for over 2 years. My relationships have been disasters. I am an alcoholic. I have always lived in poverty, was "homeless" for a very long time. I carried a lot of anger for a very long time. Etc, etc....

And through all of that, wanting to better myself...I could not. No matter how much will I applied...nothing I tried worked any change. I had no power over myself.

Then one day I learned the power of surrender. I gave up. I said to my God, "God, I am trying to be a good boy, but can't. Guess you will just have to spank me. Do with me what you will." I gave up; I surrendered. I raised the white flag. I accepted myself as a failure.

When I turned 50 I sat down on a rock. I said to myself, "Self, you have messed up the first 50 years...What are you going to do with the rest of it?" Hmmm. Sitting on a rock is good for thinking. And then I found what I wanted. What I am going to do with the rest of my life is....Be kind to other people. That is actually what I decided. So I set about learning how to be kind. I wasn't all that successful at first, but with time I got a little better at it. Other people had been kind to me, and it made me feel good, and feel like life was good in spite of all the mean people. Just seemed like something good to do.

A few years back I had another little "sittin' on a rock" session with myself. I was looking for a new goal. It will probably be my last goal. And so...what I want to be when I grow up is Love. I don't want to be loving, or give love, or be loved....I want to become love itself, on two feet. It doesn't matter to me whether I reach the goal or not; but I want to go in that direction, get a little closer every day. Just seems like a good thing to do.

And the way I go about doing it is by watching how I behave in every little passing circumstance. And it works.

It's sort of like navigating a boat on the ocean. You notice you're a bit off course, so you just turn the wheel a little to port and get back on course again. Easy does it. When a storm blows up, just turn her head into the seas; you can get back on course when it blows over.

If you try to force yourself into some mold it will never work. Been there, done that. Surrender is a very powerful thing. If you surrender the war is over. Peace follows.

If you are at war with yourself there can be no peace. If you try to conquer yourself...conquest is achieved through war. Therefore, if you try to conquer yourself there can be no peace. Obviously, this is not the fruitful path. We must find another way. In the words of that old song, "Gonna lay down my sword and shield, down by the riverside...."

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." In every situation you encounter, put yourself in the other guy's shoes. Ask yourself, "If I were him/her, and he/she were me, how would I want them to treat me?" If you do that, and treat them that way, you can't go very far off the path. Pretty simple. And what you sow you reap. And that's a fact.

Instead of worrying about yourself so much, pay attention to how you treat others. Watch what happens when you do...pretty amazing.

This post is the ultimate proof to me of what I secretly believed all these years to be true;
I didn't want to believe it cause this would made me feel restricted - and I'm not really fond of restriction with uranus in 1st house squaring my natal sun -
... yes, there is free will as to how we choose to fulfill our natal chart while choosing path A or path B but we are limited as to which paths lie in front of us.
greybeard you just described his life. I've spent only about 30 days with him over the past 39 years due to circumstances but the time I did spend with him, I really got to know him, he tried to hide from me but my scorpio moon left no stone unturned. Everything you described is true for him too, the big dreams when he was starting out, rootlessness, the failed marriages, the alcohol, the surrender...
he never was really good with words but I always understood what he was trying to tell me.
So the circumstances may have been different but the core, inner workings, inherent endowment of traits and attributes remain the same.
I am not saying that you are the same...but both of you have had to face similar demons and similar inner struggles.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Unread 10-06-2012, 04:10 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54,643
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moog View Post
I want to be part of this rainbow
Rainbow Valley - The Love Affair http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI-yUyBGe-w
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Unread 10-06-2012, 05:07 PM
chris10's Avatar
chris10 chris10 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Paradise
Posts: 1,323
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Rainbow Valley - The Love Affair http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI-yUyBGe-w
Thanks for the link
this group brought back memories of my mom's records

and one of her favorite songs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8Le8bH3Y8U&feature=plcp

Enjoy
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Unread 10-06-2012, 06:24 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54,643
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
...sometimes WE don't have the power to change our lives,
I would say that we FEEL powerless to change our lives, however fwiw IMO 'tis preferable to remain optimistic
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
...we CAN try to make the best even under difficult circumstances but we are NOT God, we are not so powerful as we sometimes think we are...
JUPITERASC:
Really? But apparently sufficiently powerful to carry out a decision to terminate a life though - thinking to 'escape' those 'difficult circumstances'...
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
Sorry, my mistake, wrong use of words….I’ll rephrase:
...sometimes WE don't have the power to improve our consumerism lifestyles, we believe that our worth depends on what we are able to buy, to consume...
Exactly, that keeps those of us who believe that myth, permanently running ourselves to nowhere fast on 'the hamster wheel of life' It's not easy to step back from 'peer pressure' and use our 'money' more wisely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
You are very intelligent…
You know what I mean, you know what I’m talking about.
Thank you, although from my perspective I'm interested to learn what precisely intelligence is since there appear to be several forms of it, many of which I can do with acquiring!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
Well this man terminated his own life… He did have the "power"to do that...
This person wanted to escape a difficult situation and made an irrevocable change with an act of IMO considerable power, inspired by hopelessness and desperation.

Every death makes incalculable changes to the future.

He had power over his own life and chose ending it which he is entitled to do. We are all entitled to our opinion and for him death seemed a better prospect than life. Whether or not death improved his situation no one knows! As the great song you provided a link to says rather obviously: Look around you things are changing fast, don't concern yourself with what's ahead, it's too late to live when you are dead!”

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
but is this the power we all mean?
Power of action or
power of truly changing/ improving your life path?
There is a far from subtle difference between causing
(1) change for the sake of change - due perhaps to boredom
(2) making changes in order to improve and
(3) making irrevocable changes leading to incalculable consequences


We all have the power to act... sometimes not acting can be equally as powerful.

Our lives are continually changing in any event. One of the tragedies of life is that those who despaired would have succeeded if they had the patience to bide their time just a little longer.
It's a matter of what one chooses to believe which is why what one thinks is so important
. Thoughts are our constant companions so let's choose good and helpful companions
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
According to the note he left to his family before committing
suicide, he couldn’t stand the fact that
he was incompetent (his own words)
to provide for them and take care of them.
I don’t see much power in that,
He felt incompetent, clearly therefore FELT powerless, clearly disliked the lack of power/inability to provide for his family and fwiw IMO, then he exercised the remaining power he had - which was power over his own life - and ended it... just my two cents worth... I get what you are saying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
I would call that determination to take his own life.
The story is that he had had a lot of hardship in his life, he was someone who always tried to do what was best for his family.
I don’t see this has happened in this instance,
I don’t see any power in this.
He just took his own life and has made his
family even more miserable.
He could have chosen to exercise the power to battle with life's difficulties but for some reason he felt unable/unwilling to do that. Perhaps he believed that 'death is the end' BUT as my signature states: "Look on every exit as being an entrance somewhere else"

SO

Be wise - look before leaping into the 'unknown' of death – remember the law of unintended consequences.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Unread 10-06-2012, 07:44 PM
Peregrine_Moon's Avatar
Peregrine_Moon Peregrine_Moon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 265
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

I've spent a fair amount of time with people who were near death,and I've also been with some who were dealing with the consequences of others' suicide. What I've seen is that death that comes to us is different from death that we choose.

People seem to commit suicide for various reasons, but in my observation most--not all, but most--of those boil down to not wanting others to see their shame. Perhaps they can't bear the shame of failure to do something or to prevent something from happening. Occasionally they're ashamed of having secrets brought to light. Particularly in the case of people who are bullied or persecuted, they may feel powerless to end their humiliation and suffering any other way. Many withdraw from friends and family so that their loved ones won't see their shame, yet their isolation increases the shame they feel.

Pluto uncovers hidden truths and is usually ruthless about it. But Saturn governs shame.

I don't know whether there are specific astrological indications of suicide, though things like depression are often present in a horoscope and its transits. Death is inevitable, but suicide is a choice.
__________________
Ann

"You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus." (Mark Twain)
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Unread 10-06-2012, 11:21 PM
Blackempress's Avatar
Blackempress Blackempress is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: 8th House!
Posts: 743
Send a message via Yahoo to Blackempress Send a message via Skype™ to Blackempress
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

I agree that in my short-learning of astrology & observing people's lives in perfect 'adherence' to it, I've kinda grown a bit resentful for Not being Born Lucky.
I would doubt timing if the chart doesn't fit the person.
On the other hand, it's True that like it or not, the External Planner has to watch the game according to the Script it's written but we're condemned to believe that it is free-will that allows us to act on what we choose.
Say, a girl decides to run away from home, despite knowing her chart etc from a perfect home without reason, it will still in some way pop out on her chart & she will follow the remaining story. But I do often wonder what if we know the depth of the chart & then try going against everything predicted or even in our nature. For e.g as a Sun-Saturn, I quit studying thoroughly & just go sit behind a desk & start taking sessions... will it change my outcome?

I'm betting 9/10, NO. Likely My insecurity for Not having a 'authorized degree of PHD' minimum is gonna freak my nerves & others will attack sensing that lack of confidence to reinforce it to make me crawl back to learning again despite knowing enough. Though I do wonder if life works magically if I suppress my ambitions & start People-pleasing if it would make me less threatening & more desirable/popular. I have yet to test it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine_Moon View Post
No one can live all of their horoscope all, or even much, of the time. It's so easy to become focused on one or two areas or configurations and to ignore the rest when we're very comfortable with some personality traits or haven't discovered others. Yet even the ways and extent to which we will overcompensate for some things can usually be seen in the chart. Ultimately, though, if something isn't in the chart, the hypothetical potential can't be developed authentically.
Totally agree. I've not come across any person who has yet resolved all their issues & reached self-actualization among-st the people around me despite their social positions.
__________________
I'd Kill for Individuality!

Last edited by Blackempress; 10-07-2012 at 12:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Unread 10-06-2012, 11:38 PM
Blackempress's Avatar
Blackempress Blackempress is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: 8th House!
Posts: 743
Send a message via Yahoo to Blackempress Send a message via Skype™ to Blackempress
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturnian View Post
I would like to hear what's the point of living a life that has been planned all out(considering it's what you believe)..

Einstein didn't become a brilliant scientist cause one day he woke up because of his saturn or whatever return..
Did You choose out of free-will to Enter this life & would you Exit if it really IS predetermined?

Einstein was Fated... that's the point, it's like Saturn Trine MC or Conj MC or any MC for that matter- people are chosen for those positions & they just walk the track to get to where they should. It's kindda like a Set Marathon, the finish line is waiting for it's rightful winner.
__________________
I'd Kill for Individuality!
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Unread 10-07-2012, 12:00 AM
tautomer's Avatar
tautomer tautomer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Oregon
Posts: 217
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Of course there is room for growth.

When I say "accept yourself as you are" I mean accept the fact that your head and your gut seem to be disconnected. And by accept, I mean look at this situation as "ok" (for today). What you have basically indicated in this post is that you love your head and hate your gut (because you can't control it, predict it, etc).

From posts of yours I have read previously, I get the impression you fight with yourself a lot, and that you attempt to "improve yourself" by force of will.

When I was in my early 20s I got a job in construction. I had done very well in high school geometry and thought that I should apply all the glorious stuff I had learned to my new trade. I would try to figure out how to make things fit, how to build them, their dimensions and forms, with my high-falutin' geometry.

And then I discovered string. String is simple, direct, easy, quick and accurate. No fuss, no muss. And so my geometry book got dusty.

I think you are trying to geometrize your life when you could be using string.

When I was younger I wondered "why" this and "why" that? and psychoanalyzed myself, and cursed my fate and those lousy parents I got, and read books on philosophy and religion and psychology and..... trying to figure it all out. That is geometrizing.

String is where you meet a situation in this very moment, and observe both yourself and others (and the situation) very carefully, and then behave in a way (respond to the situation) that will lead you where you want to go. Behavior is the key. What do you DO in this moment? It does not take a strong will; it requires only a simple choice: "How do I want to act in this immediate circumstance? What sort of action will lead me where I want to go?" That's not hard to do (it takes a little practice and is clumsy at first) and does not require a lot of energy. And it is a very powerful and effective way to change ourselves. That is what my experience has taught me. I can only speak for myself.

Over the course of my life I have set different goals for myself, basically along the lines of "What do I want to be when I grow up?"

When I was 21 I decided I would become a millionaire by the age of 24. At age 22 I saw that my plan had little chance of success. So I changed my goal. I decided that instead of becoming a millionaire I would become a failure. And I have succeeded at that beyond my wildest dreams. I am a happy man.

My life has been rootless. I have never held a job, or lived in the same house, for over 2 years. My relationships have been disasters. I am an alcoholic. I have always lived in poverty, was "homeless" for a very long time. I carried a lot of anger for a very long time. Etc, etc....

And through all of that, wanting to better myself...I could not. No matter how much will I applied...nothing I tried worked any change. I had no power over myself.

Then one day I learned the power of surrender. I gave up. I said to my God, "God, I am trying to be a good boy, but can't. Guess you will just have to spank me. Do with me what you will." I gave up; I surrendered. I raised the white flag. I accepted myself as a failure.

When I turned 50 I sat down on a rock. I said to myself, "Self, you have messed up the first 50 years...What are you going to do with the rest of it?" Hmmm. Sitting on a rock is good for thinking. And then I found what I wanted. What I am going to do with the rest of my life is....Be kind to other people. That is actually what I decided. So I set about learning how to be kind. I wasn't all that successful at first, but with time I got a little better at it. Other people had been kind to me, and it made me feel good, and feel like life was good in spite of all the mean people. Just seemed like something good to do.

A few years back I had another little "sittin' on a rock" session with myself. I was looking for a new goal. It will probably be my last goal. And so...what I want to be when I grow up is Love. I don't want to be loving, or give love, or be loved....I want to become love itself, on two feet. It doesn't matter to me whether I reach the goal or not; but I want to go in that direction, get a little closer every day. Just seems like a good thing to do.

And the way I go about doing it is by watching how I behave in every little passing circumstance. And it works.

It's sort of like navigating a boat on the ocean. You notice you're a bit off course, so you just turn the wheel a little to port and get back on course again. Easy does it. When a storm blows up, just turn her head into the seas; you can get back on course when it blows over.

If you try to force yourself into some mold it will never work. Been there, done that. Surrender is a very powerful thing. If you surrender the war is over. Peace follows.

If you are at war with yourself there can be no peace. If you try to conquer yourself...conquest is achieved through war. Therefore, if you try to conquer yourself there can be no peace. Obviously, this is not the fruitful path. We must find another way. In the words of that old song, "Gonna lay down my sword and shield, down by the riverside...."

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." In every situation you encounter, put yourself in the other guy's shoes. Ask yourself, "If I were him/her, and he/she were me, how would I want them to treat me?" If you do that, and treat them that way, you can't go very far off the path. Pretty simple. And what you sow you reap. And that's a fact.

Instead of worrying about yourself so much, pay attention to how you treat others. Watch what happens when you do...pretty amazing.

Ok, so we can agree there is room for growth. I had a feeling you mean that, I just had trouble reading into where you felt that.

Yes, you are correct I fight with myself A LOT. All the time. I have learned to back off from it and I am not as bad with it as I used to be, but it's a huge part of me. Like you have said, there are some thing that really are hard wired into us that we can do very little to change. For me, one of those thing is "fighting with myself" as you put it (really just insessive thinking. My brain does not turn off). I can reduce it, but it is something within me I can not just willingly make go away. The way I deal with it, is I have accepted it is my tool for personal growth, and it does work. Painful, but it works. I have a lot of 8th house / pluto / scorpio influence. One of the hallmarks of that is death and rebirth, pain, and the depths. I can't avoid it. Self-improvement has been and always will be painful for me in many ways. It's something I have come to accept.

You are right that I do try to geometrize, well, everything. Not just my emotional imaginative side. This is a life long lesson that I must learn, and perhaps one of the toughest ones for me to learn. I am aware of it, and your describing of how you experienced it through life brings it to the forefront of my mind even more. It's something I am beginning to work on. I have an appointment with a professional psycholgist this monday (no more of these on campus phychologists, they can't crack me). This is one of the things I will be working on.

This is where things differ though. You have had a very different life experience from me. My life has always been rooted. Most of it out of luck. Also because of my demand to be grounded (by hell or high water I will ALWAYS ground myself no matter where I am). Anger is also one of the emotions I have been "free" from; it doesn't effect me, nor do I feel it for very long. That's not from things being shut out either.

Because of our life differences, it's doubtful that your methods of figuring out how to live your life in the most positive way you can find, will work for me. That's not to say I can't garner anything from this. Of course I can. There is always something to be taken away from every life experience that someone shares with you.

You speak of string. I rather like that analogy. I feel it is also right. In some ways in some areas I have found string. It's just... my ways of finding string take a long time. For if I find it quickly, I end up ignoring its utility. It's difficult because of how my mind works. I am a highly non-linear thinker. I try to output things in a linear cut-dry manner, but inside my head it's quite far from that. I derive simplicity from high complexity. I find every subtle detail, nuance, tidbit, exception to the rule, etc. and refine it down from there. Because of that, through out my entire life, I have always garnered string from the most complex network you could imagine. I did this with MBTI (personality theory) for years. Eventually I "broke" with it, and backed off completely. Eventually, I emerged with string from it. I would have never understood, or liked the string had I not gone through what I did though. It had been given to me multiple times when I started studying it, but I ignored it. I even tried in some cases to use it, but I did not understand it. One of the biggest lessons I learned is trying to force myself and everyone else into a mold fails horribly. Yet, I would never be able to understand people in the way I do had it not for seeing the failures of a mold.

Really what I am trying to get at here is. Everyones minds are different. You way of operating works supremely well for you. You seem to have learned many a thing many people strive all their life to learn but never get there. That said, not everyone is meant to get where you are, or in the way that you do. Many peoples ways of "getting there" might seem downright wrong, but... they're still getting there, in their own way, in their own right.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Yes indeed. It is my absolute number one moral value. Bar none. I never, ever cross it. Paying attention to others, I do it quite a lot. Perhaps too much. Paying attention to myself, I could afford to do that much less. Still have a long way to go with that.

What I really need to do, is learn to quiet my mind and emotions. Which is impossible. So instead, I must find a plan B to find the same effect.


EDIT: Eh, I don't feel like I am getting my point across. I tried at least.
__________________
It's all elemental.

Last edited by tautomer; 10-07-2012 at 12:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Unread 10-07-2012, 04:49 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
Re: Attitude Toward Astrology

Meditation, properly practiced, is specifically designed to quiet the mind.

Santa Teresa de Avila, famous for her prayers, said that the most powerful of prayers is the prayer of silence, which is exactly what the Oriental form of meditation is. It takes unflagging effort over a long period of time and is not for those without determination and a willingness to endure.

My experiences with psychiatry have not been particularly enlightening. That you seem to be going from one psychologist to another makes me wonder. My first experience was some sort of group therapy; the first session was dedicated to hearing about the psychologist's trip to Las Vegas, and in the second session my attention was fixed on the guy behind me who had Satan talking to him. I figured I was in the wrong group.

The second experience lasted for 4 or 5 sessions... The preliminary interview, a second session dedicated to extensive testing, the third was spent talking about the results of the testing (?????) and then they gave me a prescription. After the session I went to the drug store and asked the pharmacist to see his pharmacopaea. I didn't have the prescription filled. The fourth session was short. I told the psychologist that I had come to him in order to try to find out what was wrong with me so I could try to fix it, not to get a chemical lobotomy. I suggested he put his little pills in a dark place for safekeeping and walked out.

I stood on the sidewalk in front of the office, thinking. I still had no idea what my problem was, nor what to do, nor who to turn to. While standing there, out of nowhere, the words of Jesus came through my head: Physician, heal thyself.

I thought. And as I looked at my situation I realized that I really only had two options. I could either give in to whatever was wrong and be crushed, or I could try to heal myself. I had no idea how to go about that, but the worst that could happen was failure.

Humpty-Dumpty sat on a wall. Humpty-Dumpty had a great fall. All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again.......Only Humpty can do that.

Have you looked at Freud's horoscope?

In my opinion going through a course of psychoanalysis is not a very positive approach to healing oneself. The very nature of the process fixes the patient's attention on himself and the problems. The mind becomes consumed (obsession) with "the problem", and goes ever deeper into the problem. You are drawn into thinking of yourself at every moment. I see that as a very negative and counterproductive approach to self-healing. And have no doubt, the psychologist cannot heal you; only you can do that.

But then what do I know? Maybe the voice of Satan is whispering in your ear. Maybe a chemical lobotomy is just what the doctor ordered.

It may be that some bio-chemical imbalance is involved in psychiatric problems. But what if "psychiatric problems" are really spiritual problems. What if we can heal ourselves by following a spiritual path to wholeness? By spiritual I don't mean going off on some religious pilgrimage or whacko tangent. I mean adopting something like the Bhagavad Gita as a guidebook and following the instructions contained therein.

It may be that you and I are different. But we have one thing in common. We are both human beings, and an amazing thing is that all human beings share certain traits, suffer from similar life-problems. Maybe we are not quite so different as you imagine.

Some books I found helpful on my own journey toward self-healing:

The Bhagavad Gita, a Hindu scripture. In 18 short chapters it tells you everything you need to know. If some all-powerful tyrant ordered me to burn every book ever written save one, the one would be the Gita.

For example, in Chapter 2, Krishna (God) says to Arjuna, the warrior (you, or me): "Whence this lifeless dejection, Arjuna, in this hour, the hour of trial? Strong men know not despair, Arjuna, for this wins neither heaven nor earth. Fall not into degrading weakness, for this becomes not a man who is a man. Throw off this ignoble discouragement, and arise like a fire that burns all before it." So, as I suggested above, if we follow the instructions in the book, it will lead to self-healing. In this passage Krishna says to Arjuna (the following paraphrasing is my own) "Get up off your ***, roll up your sleeves and get to work. If you want to heal yourself, stop your whining and DO SOMETHING." Then the book goes on to explain what to do and how to do it.

Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl. Frankl was a Viennese psychiatrist and a Jew. He was sent to Auschwitz and survived. When every single thing you have, including your name, is taken from you, you get down to the basics of what it is to be human.

Think on These Things by Jeddu Krishnamurti. Mr.K propounds two principal ideas in this book: the power and necessity of Internal Revolution, and the Mirror of Relationships. It is a question-and-answer format with lots of explanation.

Light on Life by B.K.S. Iyengar. Here is a yogi talking of life. Invaluable. While burning all of Linda Goodman's astrology books with glee, I would find a secure hiding place for this gem, and save it.

Last edited by greybeard; 10-07-2012 at 05:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
astrology, attitude

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.