Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Other Astrology > Degree Symbols

Degree Symbols Discuss your experiences with all symbol systems based on astrological degrees in the chart (i.e., Sabian Symbols, Kozminsky Symbols, etc.): the symbols for the transiting Sun and Moon and the events of your life, the symbols of your natal chart...


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 06-03-2019, 01:32 AM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,436
George Harrison and hiis two controversial natal charts, which one is true?

Greetings. this is an sudden and unplanned for thread as I only became aware of a controversy concerning, the one time member of the musical group known as the Beatles, the late George Harrison>

It was late last evening and although I had other plans I wanted to check my emails at my yahoo address...as don't use it so much anymore...and as I have had that address for so long a time it does get collect a lot of mail in the inbox when I don't check it for many days at a time. If I neglect it for too long the sorting and deletion process becomes very time consuming and wearisome.

I rarely read any emails from Astrodienst but last night was an exception and I have no explanation why I chose to open their email to me, but I did.
I was immediately intrigued by an article they offered for reading, at their website,
It is titled "George Harrison: The Astrology of a Beatle" and is written by Jackie Taylor
The into to the article that appeared in the email begins with...

"An ardent Beatles fan examines the life and times of the 'Quiet One' and his two birth charts (one rectified – thanks to his interest in astrology). Among other things, can we tell from his appearance and behaviour which was his likely rising sign – Libra or Scorpio?"

I had to check it out, for one thing I sensed it to be a challenge and I can't often resist this kind of a challenge.

For those of you that wish to read the article, here's the link: https://www.astro.com/astrology/aa_article190502_e.htm

I have often written that the Sabian Symbols are the ultimate tool to utilize for chart rectification and thought this would be an excellent exercise.

Now, before I go on any further, I wish to make all aware that I've not given the two charts anything as near as to what I might call a complete analysis, in fact far from it, but as I have checked the Sabian Symbols for the chart axes and derived the Part of Fortune for each chart and thus acquired the Sabian Symbol for each, I thought that to be interesting enough, so far, to open a thread on the subject.

It certainly won't be as easy as I thought it might be. or hoped it to be, as I can see how some symbols from each of the two charts could be appropriate to the man, his life, and career.

One chart is from the data his own mother noted in her journal as to when she said George had been born and the other is what a professional astrologer told George his birth chart was after they had "rectified" it.

His mother had written that George was born on February 25, 1943 at 00:10 A.M., that is to say at ten minutes past mid-night.

The astrologer, He hired, claimed that February 24, at 23:42 is correct.

Here are the two charts in the same order.






As to the chart for the time his mother I'd like to begin with the Sabian Symbol for the chart Asc. As the late Dane Rudhyar had written , the Sabian Symbol for the natal Asc. is the "WHO" of that individuals existence and that the Desc. is symbolically the "WHERE-TO" although at times I find that the term "WHOM-TO" to be a more appropriate and less confusing term to use.

The Asc. of the chart for Feb. 25th, 1943, which is at 03* Scorpio 14' 06, i.e. the 4th degree of Scorpio, is as follows [From Dane Rudhyar's book about the Sabian Symbols, "An Astrological Mandala"] If it is George's chart then this is symbolic of who he was.

"SCORPIO 4°: A YOUTH CARRIES A LIGHTED CANDLE IN A DEVOTIONAL RITUAL.

KEYNOTE:
The educative power of ceremonies which impress the great images of a culture upon its gathered participants.

A community of human beings is ensouled by a few basic symbols which structure and illustrate the group's particular culture and way of life. Rituals and social ceremonies of all types (from a baseball game to a ticker-tape parade for returning heroes, or a religious service in an old cathedral) incorporate these symbols in traditional forms of activity. As they participate in these collective presentations of commonly accepted values and ideals, the minds and feelings of young people are formed by these symbols. They take the values for granted until the day when they choose to assert their individuality — or their participation in a generation's revolt — by scorning the traditional rituals, including as well business rituals. Then they may poignantly search for new ones to participate in!

This fourth stage symbol pictures for us the method by which a community of feelings is built during the formative years of childhood and adolescence. The zodiacal sign Scorpio is especially related to rituals including the sex rituals which unite the communicants at the roots of their beings. In these sex rituals too,
THE POWER OF SYMBOLS is evident, above and beyond the mere biological act.
"

I don't know a great deal of personal information about George Harrison's private life and pale in comparison to others that know about his public life, but He was my favorite Beatle as a musician and admire him for finding his spiritual calling and honoring it both musically and his acts and deeds in support of the people and the faith of the Sanatan Dharm [Hinduism].
It does seem to be a somewhat fitting symbolism for His ascendant.

Now let's examine the Sabian Symbol for the Sign and degree of the Descendant, which would then be symbolic of His ""WHERE-TO" , OR "WHOM-TO" as I sometimes find to be more preferable, and see just how fitting that may be? It is, of course, that of the 4th degree of Taurus. [ibid.]

"TAURUS 4°: THE POT OF GOLD AT THE END OF THE RAINBOW.

KEYNOTE:
Riches that come from linking the celestial and the earthly nature.

In Genesis, the rainbow is the symbol of the Covenant of God with Noah. In all mythologies it expresses, in one way or another, a linking process — or the bridge used by divine beings to communicate with mortals. What the linking process brings to the individual consciousness is elusive, as the rainbow never ends where you are, yet it is the source of symbolic, universally valid wealth. All wealth, in a very real sense, comes from 'commerce'; i.e. from the commingling of minds and from contracts, and thus is based on faith in the validity of a promise.
At this fourth stage of the five-fold process we are given a mode of
operation, which reminds us of the symbol for the second stage, 'an electrical storm'. Man need not be overawed by the celestial display of power, for it leads to a fruitful contact with beings of light. This is a natural kind of
COMMUNION, involving a transubstantiation of matter.
"

Yes, that does seem to be most appropriate, now doesn't it? Quite literally too...!

Let's continue on and analyze the other two axis points, the Mid-Haven and the Nadir, although before jumping to any conclusions, however, shall we?

The M.C.'s Sabian Symbol for it's Sign and degree is symbolically the "HOW" of a natal chart when interpreted in the view of looking towards spiritual evolution, or spiritual progress if you prefer, yet it is also the "WHY" of the natal chart when interpreted in regards to the mundane.
The "HOW" and "WHY" of a natal chart are in reference to the transition, the transformation, indicated by the Sabian Symbolism given for the ascendant to that of the Sabian Symbolism given for the descendant.

The M.C. of this chart is at 16* Leo 04' 23", i.e. the 17th degree of Leo. [ibid.]

"LEO 17°: A VOLUNTEER CHURCH CHOIR SINGING RELIGIOUS HYMNS.

KEYNOTE:
The feeling of togetherness which unites men and women in their dedication to a collective ideal.

Religion in its institutionalized aspect is the attempt to give a transcendental character to the feeling of community. The fellowship of common work needed for substance and security in a dangerous world is exalted in periodic rituals in which the co-workers participate. At such moments the consciousness and feelings of human beings flow into a common mold in which they become refreshed by the experience of shared values and beliefs.

This second stage symbol presents a contrast with that of the first only in that the collectively human aspect of experience is in contrast to the purely natural and fundamental character of instinctual life. The existence of a volunteer church choir implies a rather steady phase of culture and society. What is sung reflects the special way in which a particular community of human beings — extensive as it may be — interprets the deepest realities of human existence and man's longings for an ideal. The symbol expresses the idealized aspect of
TOGETHERNESS."


HARE KRISHNA HARE RAMA, MY SWEET LORD...! How much more appropriate a Sabian Symbol could there be for the symbolism of George Harrison's mid-haven, THAT which is symbolically the "HOW" as to make a successful transition, the transformation, from that of a boy, or young man, carrying a candle in ritual devotion to that of a "Pot Of Gold" that will only manifest from successfully "linking the celestial and the earthly nature"?

But as affirmative as all the preceding Sabian Symbols have been so far, let us not be hasty as we still have the Sabian Symbol for the I.C. to examine...and since I took the liberty here in the matter regarding the M.C. and went with the spiritually oriented interpretation I'll continue along that same vein if no one objects? Those that do can just reverse the roles for themselves and their own satisfaction. I do agree with fellow member PhoenixVenus, however, that it is important to be aware of both interpretations and to make effort to utilize them in both manners.

So then, on to the last point of the chart axis, the I.C., the nadir, and let's have a look at the Sabian Symbol for the 17th degree o Aquarius, the "WHY" as to all of the above, [pun somewhat intended] and we will see if it is as fitting as all the previous when given consideration to the symbolism it contains in relation to the life of George Harrison.
The Sabian Symbol for the 17th degree of Aquarius is by Dane Rudhyar's analysis and interpretation [ibid.]

"AQUARIUS 17°: A WATCHDOG STANDS GUARD, PROTECTING HIS MASTER AND HIS POSSESSIONS.

KEYNOTE:
The development of the capacity to protect one-self and to safeguard one's individual rights under complex social pressures.

What seems to be implied in this symbol, considering its position in the entire cycle, is that under present-day social conditions the individual person needs protection against the ever-growing encroachments of society upon his theoretically recognized right to lead a private life free from public interference. Seen in this light the symbol stands in contrast to the preceding one depicting the power of big business and the totalitarian implications of large-scale organization. At a deeper occult level of interpretation it also reveals the need to protect oneself against 'astral' intrusions and perhaps 'black magic', the more so as one ventures into supernormal states of consciousness. It is said that the Adept trains certain subhuman entities ('Elementals') to protect him. The Christian religion speaks of Guardian Angels in a related sense.

At this second stage we see the individual able to master natural energies which he enlists in his service, so he may pursue his individualized work of destiny in security. This is another aspect of the relationship of individual-to-society. Individuals of course do also seek to rob or injure other persons, but the state of affairs resulting from a society glorifying competition, ambition and success at any cost is largely responsible for individual violence. The more creative the person, the greater his or her
NEED FOR PROTECTION.
"

How very interesting. As the I.C. is the "HOW" in the mundane matters of one's transition, the transformation. from the personification of the Sabian Symbol given for the ascendant to that of the Sabian Symbolism for the descendant. Recall, if you will please, that is has a symbol of "THE POT OF GOLD AT THE END OF THE RAINBOW" and that the Sabian Symbols at times can be taken quite literally and, as I have found so far to this day, especially when they pertain to the natal charts of particularly notable souls that manifested here on earth that had a major impact upon the spiritual lives of so many people.
As George was sued and found guilty by a court of law for alleged plagiarism in composing the music that He had for his marvelous song and beautiful tribute to God and Gods' avatars, Sri Krishna and Sri Rama then as to being the "HOW" of the mundane affairs of the transformation He was making IT CERTAINLY DOES SEEM VERY APPROPRIATE.

I would like to add here, and there may be some among the members here that already know of this, certainly there has been over the years but the membership that is active does come and go over time...and sometimes returns as well.
When I met my friend, and fellow yogi, Suryakant, in August of 2003 I had just been "put through the wringer" ...so to speak... I had been the targeted victim of assault by a practitioner of black arts whom was rather an accomplished adept at it and whom also was the head of a local "coven", perhaps the term "warlock" might be the correct one to use. I won't get into the details of why I was attacked but let it suffice to say I was being as righteous, yet as respectful as was possible, given the nature of the contention between us.

It was a most unpleasant experience and not one for the weak of heart, either physically and more especially that of the spiritual heart, the Hridayam, I believe I spelled it appropriately in the context for its use here...Sanskrit is a bit tricky to master and I am far from becoming anything at all as like that of a master of the language... I had asked for advice about mantras for protection from a Sikh, I met during the ordeal, and He told me that the one he knew of is called the Hanuman Chalisa but that it is very lengthy and not so much as like so many of the mantras that originated from Vedic and Hindu philosophy, as it is not so very much repetitive, and thus He hadn't memorized it and advised me to seek it out rather than risk given me the wrong words. Mantras must be said exact and pronounced perfectly in order for them to be effective.
When I returned to the old hotel I had been renting a room some weeks later a new tenant, whom was also renting monthly, had just moved in a couple of weeks prior and on about the third occasion we had a chance to talk...as I hate to admit it , being that we were, and still are, long time practitioners of yoga, we both smoked tobacco which was not allowed in the rooms and only on the rear deck of the building.

Somehow we discovered that we were both mutually following a path of yoga, and He told me a bit of his life story. He had been one of the group of the very first Americans to be given training by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi to teach Transcendental Meditation [rather appropriate an account here given that the subject of this thread is one of the Beatles, wouldn't you say?] and that was in 1964, I think it was, it may have been '65 however. In 1979 a most accomplished and most revered yogi from India Dhyanyogi Madhusudandas was in the Americas for a five year visit, He was 100 years old when on his return to India from the East Coast of the United States He stopped and gave a lecture here, in what was then, tiny "podunk" Orangevale at a local Christian Church that was of the unaffiliated type and Suryakant read about the upcoming event and attended. He was one of the very few that did...and I was here visiting my folks at the time as it was winter and I lived and worked in the high Sierra Nevada mountains and as I was a construction worker and that activity stops when the snow really gets to falling. I saw the announcement but I had grown weary of "guru chasing" as I had done so for some years and hadn't found one that invited me to be a disciple in all that time, and besides it rained like it rarely does but maybe once every 25 to 50 years here at the time of that winter and as my Volkswagen had gone kaput after I arrived I wasn't going to walk the five miles to that church to see yet another "guru" from India and one that I had never even heard of. ...and besides, as I remember thinking at the time, "He's so old how long do you think you'd be getting help from him before He kicks the bucket?" Little did I know. at that time, that his assistance was bestowed upon me and that it would reach across a time span of 34 years.

I asked Suryakant if he had ever heard of the Hanuman Chalisa and he replied that he not only had heard o it, that he has heard it recited many times and had a tape cassette of Dhyanyogi reciting it which He offered to lend me. I was thrilled to have achieved such a find and Suryakant also loaned me his book on Jap Yoga by Swami Sivananda that finally provided the answer as to why no guru had ever invited me to be their disciple as it was because I had my guru, and satguru, from the very beginning when I first achieved success in meditation. I am a sisya of the bij, the seed word, OM [or spelled AUM] and the Swami had written it is only the Word of God that is to be or ever should be my guru and satguru. As I was raised in Quaker beliefs and taught to "listen to the inner Voice as it is the Voice of god", what could possibly have been more appropriate. Suryakant, upon of learning my interest in astrology, gave me a copy of his birth chart and the interpretation of it done by an astrologer well studied in Rudhyarian technique and well studied with the Sabian Symbols as well.

In that analysis of Suryakant's natal chart was the authors conspicuous mention of His 8th House cusp, the House that deals with the "Darkness", it rites, rituals, among other things and made a special note of pointing out that the Sabian Symbol for that 8th House cusp was that of the Sign and degree found on that cusp, the 17th degree of Aquarius.
As Dane wrote in the interpretation for that Sabian Symbol of the 17th degree of Aquarius, above, " At a deeper occult level of interpretation it also reveals the need to protect oneself against 'astral' intrusions and perhaps 'black magic', the more so as one ventures into supernormal states of consciousness.", that was the day I learned that the Sabians for the House cusps [particularly the chart axis, late on] were undeniably applicable and I already knew them to be genuine I just hadn't been able to see it via my own chart axis up to that time not the few personal charts I was privy too also. I have, however, amassed quite a collection of personal charts since then.

So, if you will pardon my digression here...though I thought it to be appropriate as to add understanding and support the validity of the Sabian Symbols... we will now return to this matter pertaining to George Harrison?

Well, then, the birth time as given by George's mother does seem to be very appropriate... maybe undeniably so. Let's have a look at the Part of Fortune though as we still need more evidence to be convinced of anything as of yet... imho. the part of Fortune should give us another very weighty piece of evidence for or against the acceptance of this chart. Recall if you will, or be it known to those of you unfamiliar with my work in this field, that the Part of Fortune from the natal chart I contend and am convinced of is the legitimate chart [as near as to the exact time I can yet determine] of the man known as Jesus/Yeshu'a of Nazareth is in the 19th degree of Pisces and that that Sign and degrees' Sabian Symbol is "THE MASTER INSTRUCTS HIS DISCIPLE", thus it is evident that the Part of Fortune is not about a "Fortune" in a monetary sense... [and why would God concern Gods' self with such man made concepts? ] the Part is about what action, cultural tradition, mental process, what ever the Symbolism is found to be of, and that by activating it one achieves the most fortuitous circumstances as the outcome by which they can fulfill their destiny, make that successful transformation, fulfill their "dharma". most easily and swiftly and, most importantly, most thoroughly and to the best degree of perfection obtainable.

The Part of Fortune derived from this chart is at 28* Gemini 10' 21", that is to say the 29th degree of Gemini. That is of the five degrees that Dane labeled as "INDIVIDUAL/MENTAL" implying that it is a mental attitude or orientation that each individual must apply to themselves as an individual. there are but two other such types of Sabian Symbols in regards to this sub-division of the entire set and they repeat in succession every five degrees. The first five degrees are "ACTIONAL" and that is followed by five degrees of "EMOTIONAL/CULTURAL"

Dane further divided the 360 symbols in groups and labeled those groups accordingly as to how He perceived they are oriented to the entire set being a cycle of transformation . those of you interested in learning further about the groups and what they are labeled to represent will have to seek out his book on the Sabians and read it but there may be yet still those chapters from his book available to read online. I know that mindfire website had almost the entire book available to read online at one time and it may still be yet, but it is known to disappear and ten reappear without any notice that I know of...so if you do find it available online it might be a good idea to copy it while it is .

So, as I must apologize from digressing again, let me do so and lets see what the Sabian Symbol for the Part of Fortune is that this chart based on his mothers' notation of when the birth occurred provides us with. That of the 29th degree of Gemini [ibid.]

"GEMINI 29: THE FIRST MOCKINGBIRD OF SPRING.

KEYNOTE:
The creative exuberance of the human soul in response to basic life experiences.

The mockingbird is able to imitate sounds he hears, but actually he does more than imitate, for he weaves all these sounds into melodies which at times can have joyous amplitude and instinctively creative spontaneity. The symbol refers to the capacity which the talented individual has to take collective material and to transform it under the urge of biological productivity and instinctual love. The song rises, powered by these great natural drives, very much as so-called popular songs rise from the youthful soul in response to deep personal or social emotions.

At this fourth stage of the five-fold sequence, what is presented to us symbolically is the reaction of the individual who has become sensitive to many life currents in his environment and who is able to exteriorize this welling-up response as a gift to his society, displaying
VIRTUOSITY."


I surely don't need to add any commentary here... I think everyone should be able to understand for themselves just how "spot on" this is.

I wanted to do the same thorough analysis of the so called "rectified" chart today too...but the day is waning fast and I've uch to do to prepare for the arrival of my new room mate tomorrow and have to fix my supper as well.
I'm going to go ahead and post this anyways...as much as I have here now at this moment as i neve can tell if and whn I will be back to write on line and I would so hate to let this one just slip off into obscurity, never to be read, if I shouldn't happen to return.

I do certainly plan on returning though and analyze the other chart...meanwhile let the comments begin, have at the chart, have at one another as to those who agree or disagree with me, or anyone who comments that doesn't do either... "what ever floats ya boat".

Hare Krishna
Hare Rama
Hare Yeshu'a
Namaste
ptv
aka Devananda

__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe

Last edited by piercethevale; 06-06-2019 at 05:23 AM. Reason: removed a url address that somehow got into the text?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Unread 06-07-2019, 04:53 AM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,436
Re: George Harrison and hiis two controversial natal charts, which one is true?

Looking to the "rectified" chart given for George Harrison you'll find the Asc. of that chart at 28* Libra 27' 17", i.e. the 29th degree of Libra. This gives, through the Sabian Symbol found for that Sing and degree, the symbolism of the "WHO" of that chart [ibid]

"LIBRA 29°:MANKIND'S VAST AND ENDURING EFFORT TO REACH FOR KNOWLEDGE TRANSFERABLE FROM GENERATION TO GENERATION.

KEYNOTE:
A deep sense of participation in, and commitment to, social processes which seek to bring to all men Truth and a greater Life.

The most characteristic trait in human nature is the ability to 'bind time' (as Korzybsky once stated): that is, to transfer to other men as yet unborn the harvest of his conscious experiences and his deliberate endeavors. This ability far transcends instinct and biological mutations, for it is based on consciousness, choice, will and self-sacrifice for the sake of future human beings. It rests upon a deep feeling of the value of 'community'; its use increases this feeling and eventually destroys the roots of loneliness.
This fourth stage symbol suggests the technique that makes a life truly 'human'. To join other men and women in the vast process of a living civilization is to fulfill the basic implications of the human stage of cosmic evolution — a stage characterized by CONSCIOUS PARTICIPATION."

I can see in the symbolism of the Sabian Symbol for the 29th of Libra some of George's qualities. His inspiration, dedication, effort, and especially his participation in his Concert for Bangaldesh surely exemplifies this but as to "reaching for knowledge transferable fro generation to generation" I can't picture what that would be except for his involvement in the way of the Sanatan Dharm and being a devoted yogi and making the Occidental world all the more aware of it.

Compared to the Sabian Symbol Dane gave for the 4th degree of Scorpio, the Asc. of his other chart, cast for the time of birth His mother had noted, [ibid]


"SCORPIO 4°: A YOUTH CARRIES A LIGHTED CANDLE IN A DEVOTIONAL RITUAL."

... and in giving thought to Danes last sentence in analysis and summation being...

" The zodiacal sign Scorpio is especially related to rituals including the sex rituals which unite the communicants at the roots of their beings. In these sex rituals too, THE POWER OF SYMBOLS is evident, above and beyond the mere biological act."

... that George Harrison is reputed to have had a very strong libido I have to give this round to the chart for the time His mother had recorded.

The Descendant, the "WHERE-TO", OR "WHOM-TO", as I wrote in the first post, is then the transformation implicated by the Sabian Symbol for the 29th degree of Aries [ibid.]

"ARIES 29°: THE MUSIC OF THE SPHERES.

KEYNOTE:
Attunement to cosmic order.

At the fourth stage of a five-fold sequence a technique is often presented. It is based on the experiences implied in the preceding symbols. In this case, what the individual who has entered into a new realm of possibilities of action should learn is the harmonic principles operating in this realm. The music of the spheres is the celestial embodiment of principles of polyphonic interplay. The individual advancing 'on the Path' should seek to understand and realize his place in the vast scheme of mankind's evolution, in the immense Chord of the harmony of the universe.

The message to the seeker for meaning which is implied in this symbol is TO LISTEN TO THE INNER VOICE; to listen without personalizing this Voice in a glamour-producing manner. It is the Voice of the Whole, of which one begins to realize that one is a tiny little part - yet a significant part, for every note of the universal Chord has its place and its ineradicable meaning."

What a symbol for a musician and composer whom was also ever attempting to ever all the more attune himself to that very "cosmic order".

This Sabian Symbol now poses quite the conundrum, doesn't it?

Comparing the two choices here given, the mothers data chart having as it's Descendants' Sabian Symbol, in review, [ibid.]

"TAURUS 4°: THE POT OF GOLD AT THE END OF THE RAINBOW.

KEYNOTE:
Riches that come from linking the celestial and the earthly nature."

Georges first solo album, "All Things Must Pass", which was released in my senior semester in high school and when I heard it for the first time I found it to be the most impressive album I had ever heard at the time and it became the most cherished album, in my personal collection of records, by the Beatles or any of them solo. Harrison's first solo effort in fact sold more albums than John Lennon's album "Imagine" and Paul McCartney's "Band on the Run" albums combined. Numerous critics have called it the most successful Beatle solo album of all time. It was released on November 27, 1970 and had been certified "Gold" by December and is presently certified six times platinum.
One critic is quoted as having said; "All Things Must Pass appeared at a time when religion and spirituality had become "a turn-of-the-decade craze" among Western youth." and another called the album "an exemplary fusion of 'rock and religion' " and Filmmaker Martin Scorsese has written of the "powerful sense of the ritualistic on the album", adding: "I remember feeling that it had the grandeur of liturgical music, of the bells used in Tibetan Buddhist ceremonies.

The number of high talented musicians that a popular critic described as "a who's who of the decade's rock royalty" is legendary and includes, as for examples, Phill Collins, Peter Frampton, Gary Booker, Gary Wright, Billy Preston, Ringo Starr, Eric Clapton and Dave Mason.
George was inspired to write the much adored hit yet alleged plagiarized tune, "My Sweet Lord" while touring with Delaney and Bonnie during a stop over in Copenhagen in 1969. Delaney Bramlett often played a bit of Gospel and Gospel blues and was known as the John Mayall of America for the magnificent bands He put together to tour with him and his wife Bonnie.

{Delaney and Bonnie lived nearby where I grew up in the 60's and Dave Mason married the younger sister, Dana, of my friend of grade school years , the late, Jim Foley. I got to see Delaney and Bonnie not long before Delaney passed away in the '90's when they were visiting a local radio station on a bit of a promotion tour. Their daughter was a singer and was a member of the newly formed band, "The Zoo", a Mick Fleetwood project at the time. Bonnie was a member of the cast of the tv show Rosanne and played the part of a waitress. Very talented bunch.]

Out of the musicians that got together to back George on his album grew the band with their one self titled, but magnificent album, "Derek and the Dominoes" that Eric Clapton fronted. It was also during that time that Clapton is said to have fallen in love so hard for Georges wife, Pattie at the time He developed a heroin habit, but did marry her about 8 years afterward.
The album was a huge success and most critics agree that it is the greatest of any of the former Beatles solo albums .
It was reissued as a thirty anniversary set with five additional previously un-released songs in 2001 as a CD set, reissued again in 201 as a 40th anniversary set of three vinyl LP records, limited edition with each record numbered and in 2014 it was released in completeness as part of an 8 CD set covering "The Apple Years". .. all the releases were hugely successful in sales.
In short, George made lots and lots and lots of lots of ....money...
I think the mothers' data chart and the 4th degree Scorpio Asc. is looking more accurate with every analysis.

The M.C. of the "rectified" chart, at 09* Leo 04' 45" , will reveal what the "HOW" of the rectified chart is and it's Sabian Symbol will produce the plan from getting a successful transformation from Libra 29* to Aries 29* symbolically as for a spiritual interpretation which is oriented towards evolution of the soul...the I.C. can be considered to be the "HOW" too, in the sense that symbol will pertain to all matters concerning towards a mundane oriented transformation...but one should work with them both ways.

Also keep in mind that we're comparing the Sabian Symbols of the M.C.s' for both charts, As I have accepted the chart derived from the data in Georges' mothers' journal as an acceptable possibility then as the rectified chart is the challenger, as it was to begin with, whatever the symbolism is that we find for the 10th degree of Leo it must convince me that it is more valid for the role it must play in the life of George Harrison and in this instance it's the "HOW" of the Asc. to Desc. transformation is to be made possible.

Recall that the I.C.for the mothers' journal produced chart has as it's Sabian Symbol and the symbolism found is about the "HOW" as to the mundane affairs of the man and using it in that application the M.C. is supposed to answer symbolically as to "WHY".
Recall that the M.C.s' Sabian Symbol for the Mothers' journal chart is [ibid.]

"LEO 17°: A VOLUNTEER CHURCH CHOIR SINGING RELIGIOUS HYMNS.

KEYNOTE:
The feeling of togetherness which unites men and women in their dedication to a collective ideal.

Religion in its institutionalized aspect is the attempt to give a transcendental character to the feeling of community. The fellowship of common work needed for substance and security in a dangerous world is exalted in periodic rituals in which the co-workers participate. At such moments the consciousness and feelings of human beings flow into a common mold in which they become refreshed by the experience of shared values and beliefs.

This second stage symbol presents a contrast with that of the first only in that the collectively human aspect of experience is in contrast to the purely natural and fundamental character of instinctual life. The existence of a volunteer church choir implies a rather steady phase of culture and society. What is sung reflects the special way in which a particular community of human beings — extensive as it may be — interprets the deepest realities of human existence and man's longings for an ideal. The symbol expresses the idealized aspect of TOGETHERNESS."


If you read the article about George Harrison I gave a link to then you will recall the couple of paragraphs the author mention exactly the very precept, and very literally too, that the Sabian Symbol for the 17th deg. of Leo, above, was "HOW" George functioned, "HOW" George operated. He like being in a group, he liked being "a part" of a group and not a front-man, nor the main act in the center ring,George liked to blend in and be just another voice in the choir, so to speak. I like what the author also wrote about George's 11th House placed Neptune, as my natal chart has Neptune in the 11th House as well it was a surprising and enlightening read as I had never given much thought to how the placement might be affecting the affairs of that House and to be completely honest Neptune is the planet in my chart that I've paid the least attention to. I've given much thought to the Saturn-Neptune conjunction in my chart and the Sabian Symbol for each and came to understand the significance of what those symbols mean as to those planets themselves and what influence their known attributes when combined with their own unique symbols, being that Saturn and Neptune are so close in conjunction in my natal chart, yet they are in separate degrees and have different Sabians',
But, I never had the realization before...as the author wrote. "Neptune dissolves boundaries and in the 11th house took friendship to a higher level." I have been told many a time that I treat my friends better than they treat me... [and if they only knew that I treat my friends better than myself, most all the time] ...but it has never been used or been meant to be taken as a compliment by anyone that has said that to me.

So, yes, George has that natal Neptune in the 11th House just like mine and that holds for both the mothers' data and rectified charts but he's also got that Sabian Symbol for his M.C. in the mothers' data chart and it's a symbol of a volunteer church choir and Rudhyar made it a keynote of the interpretation of the symbol as to it being; "the feeling of togetherness which unites men and women in their dedication to a collective ideal." ...and his first post-Beatle album release is as much songs of praise to God and Sri Krishna as there are songs to the mundane. If anyone that is reading these very words of mine at this moment thinks that his song "My Sweet Lord" isn't a "religious hymn" then I will bet dollars to doughnuts that you're an atheist, a member of some "holy roller" or evangelistic congregation or perhaps simply contrary.

As the articles' author wrote:
"Neptune in the 11th (groups) opposes Venus, his values. George was in a group. George was in the group, and that was where he wanted to be. All he ever wanted to do, from his mid-teens onwards, was to play guitar in a group. Not for him the ego-exercising twenty-minute guitar solos – his guitar work was created purely and simply to complement and accompany the group. Not for him the front-man attention – he left that to John and Paul, and he just stood at the back, approaching the mic only to harmonise or to shake his head and sing “Ooh”. There came a time, publicly revealed in the agonising Let It Be film, when the group stifled him, and he had to get out. Yet his famous and gloriously successful solo triple album All Things Must Pass was not in fact a solo effort: George invited all his friends into the studio to play with him, and this was the way he worked until the end.
Percussionist Ray Cooper, who played on many of George’s works, said that George 'loved collaboration', and went on to say that after the Beatles dissolution, George 'missed his mates'."

...and just a few months after his first solo work is released, Ravi Shankar, makes an appeal to George to help the starving masses of Bangladesh...what that resulted in was that all the more emphasis was pointedly about "togetherness", "collective ieals" , and said in exactly these following words I quote from Dane's interpretation for the 17th deg. of Leo, "The fellowship of common work needed for substance and security in a dangerous world is exalted in periodic rituals in which the co-workers participate."

The author of the article gave the following as the historical account. "In 1971 he was thrust even further into the limelight when his friend Ravi Shankar asked if, in view of his status and fame, there was anything he could do to help the starving victims of the Bangladesh civil war. Mars in Capricorn opposite Jupiter wasn’t content just to reach into his pocket for a donation. After a month solidly on the phone to his many, many celebrity friends, George took the lead in the first-ever pop music benefit concert, an event which paved the way for Live Aid and all subsequent pop-rock fundraising shows. Two concerts in all"
It all is just so fitting to the symbolism in the 17th of Leo, imho ...which the I.C. and it's Sabian Symbol of the 17th of Aquarius about the need for protection as for the lawsuit about plagarism and the intruder that broke into his home and stabbed George repeatedly with a knife, from which He narrowly escaped with his life, unlike hapless John, whom didn't fare as well n his own encounter... "BEWARE OF DARKNESS INDEED"

Yet, as much as I am nearly, completely convinced that His mother was indeed accurate and diligent in recording the birth time all factors in an science experiment to determine and obtain proof must be fairly and equally considered, so the Sabian Symbol for the 10th deg. of the Leo, the M.C. of the "rectified" chart is [ibid.]

"LEO 10: EARLY MORNING DEW SPARKLES AS SUNLIGHT FLOODS THE FIELD.

KEYNOTE:
The exalted feeling that rises within the soul of the individual who has successfully passed through the long night which has tested his strength and his faith.

The cold air of night having precipitated upon the field of man's consciousness the moisture of his deepest feelings, this widely spread dew is blessed with the light of significance by the rising sun of the new day. Even tears can be transformed into jewels in the light of victory over night and sorrow.

At this fifth stage of the present sequence we see the potential culmination of the process which began on a note of social and cultural crisis. The would-be reformer has to meet many emotional problems as he begins his work of creation. Creation means transformation; the reformer is actually a transformer if he is truly a creative and inspired individual open to the spirit that 'makes everything new'. The building of a new society, and of one's renewed personality as well, is just as much a process of artistic creation as the making of a delicate glass vase or a symphony. The Keyword is TRANSFIGURATION."

Well ain't that just another conundrum altogether? It does sound very appropriate and fitting too.... and so it all comes down to the last symbol to look at for the chart axis of the "rectified chart" and if it does compliment the one that is its opposite at the M.C. while also in context to the events of the life of George Harrison... then we've got to equal contenders for the time being until the most significant Astrological Parts are all also compared and weighed, and it may even go on from there?

The Sabian Symbol for the I.C. of the "rectified" natal chart given for George is in the 10th deg. of Aquarius and that is [ibid.]

"AQUARIUS 10°: A MAN WHO HAD FOR A TIME BECOME THE EMBODIMENT OF A POPULAR IDEAL IS MADE TO REALIZE THAT AS A PERSON HE IS NOT THIS IDEAL.

KEYNOTE:
The need to deal with human beings as persons rather than as screens upon which one projects one's dream and ideal.

Here we have a final statement on the relationship between mental-spiritual vision and living reality, between persons and the ideal they appear to incarnate, between the 'great lover Image' and one's need for love — a love his presence stimulated and aroused. The 'star' on the movie screen is not the actual person. The star's popularity fades away, the person remains. What has this episode of popularity actually done to the person? This is a question that can be applied to a great variety of circumstances.

This fifth symbol in the sixty-second sequence brings to our attention an issue that is basic and may confront us in various forms. Person versus archetype. This can mean a critical need for SELF-REVALUATION. "

Coincidentally the 10th deg. of Aquarius just happens to also be the location of my natal Part of Soul/Spirit and I understand the symbolism as it relates to me in context to being symbolic of my soul [as I am presently of a strong opinion that the Part of Souls' symbolism is about that which the individual must come to a realization about at some time in their life. I was know both at my job and around town in private life as "Painter Dave", and I had come to hear it so often that I even used the term as an adopted nickname. Yet it was soon after I turned fifty years of age and then most undeniably so after I turned fifity-one that I realized that identity was more of a "disguise" than who and what my purpose in this incarnation was Gods' intent.
...and there is some that agree with my theory that this present life of mine isn't one that had to occur as karmic due but rather a, viz., "volunteer mission"

But, and as to not digress any further does the Sabian Symbol seem appropriate as being the "WHY", in regarding George's spiritual self, in context to the Sabian Symbol for the 10th deg. of Leo being correct and valid as symbolically representing the "HOW" and all in regard and context to the symbolism of the transformation given by the Sabians fr the Asc. and Desc.?

Well, if it is true and appropriate that the "WHO" and "WHERE-TO" of Mr. Harrison's entire lifetime from 1967 on, when He was twenty three years of age and had been introduced to meditation and Vedic philosophy, had been about piety, spiritual devotion [and at times seemed as if he was intent on inducing a self quickening so as to atone for all his karmic debts and break free of Maya forever in the few years remaining that he had, although He surely believed until He was near his end that He had many more years ahead of him]] so as to come to a day when He would both be able and inspired to link the Divine above with the Earthly below for the purpose of accumulating great wealth then while Leo 10* is a symbolism of fresh new beginnings, like that of the most refreshing dewy sunshine filled morning you've even seen and if accepted as being the legit symbolism for the "HOW" then was it so as George would come to a realization that He was not anyone that He may have ever even given any consideration as to even suspect as truly being util that occurred?
He already knew He wasn't a Beatle any more whether or not He ever even played an instrument again, let alone compose any music, his financial status changed quite a bit of time prior, and by that I mean He became and knew he was wealthy quite some time before.

Or in a mundane analysis did George have to come to a realization He was not who he always thought himself to be ,,,just so as to have that fresh, brand new day. opportunity that would give Him a clean, fresh, unhindered, new beginning?

I might be able to reach a state of mental clarity and insight if I meditate for a number of days and then have doubt and without the least of hesitation point to one chart or the other as "The Real McCoy" but I've still got one last item to compare and that is the symbolism found in the Sabian Symbol for the Part of Fortune of the "rectified" chart with the Sabian symbolism for the Part of Fortune from the chart derived from his mothers data...and if you do recall what that Sabian Symbol is for the "mothers' data" chart then you know that is a pretty tough hand to beat, if it were a poker hand, that is. [Oh, Wait, these are poker hands too, aren't they...? ...and for the little and completely uninformed... Yes they are. The 52 cards in a standard deck of playing cards can be used in a manner so that when combined in pairs they will represent 360 different items. The 12 face cards in the Deck each represent one of the 12 signs and the numeric cards all represent, what else the numbers from one to ten, except that one entire suit of numerical is eliminated as three sets of ten cards will cover the thirty degrees found in every Sign. The Kings are the Cardinal Signs, the Queens are the Fixed Signs and the Jacks are the Mutable Signs. Hearts are the Spring, Diamonds are the Summer, Spades the Autumn and Clubs the Winter. My Asc. is the 18th deg of Scorpio and so the Queen of Spades and the 8 of Diamonds symbolically represent that. The cards so recognized will lend a deck of cards to the purpose of divination, if you believe and are into that sort of thing.
The Sabian Symbols must be used in the same manner as the I Ching is though. i.e No "Yes or No" type questions,one should ask what the outcome will be if they proceed one way over another


so, the Part of Fortune for the "rectified" chart will have to be a Duesey to just stay in this contest, I can't foresee any means by which it could possibly knock the mothers' data derived chart out and take the prize.
Let's review, and refresh our brains, as to what the Sabian Symbol for the Part of Fortune is from the mothers' data chart. [ibid.]

"GEMINI 29: THE FIRST MOCKINGBIRD OF SPRING.

KEYNOTE:
The creative exuberance of the human soul in response to basic life experiences.

The mockingbird is able to imitate sounds he hears, but actually he does more than imitate, for he weaves all these sounds into melodies which at times can have joyous amplitude and instinctively creative spontaneity. The symbol refers to the capacity which the talented individual has to take collective material and to transform it under the urge of biological productivity and instinctual love. The song rises, powered by these great natural drives, very much as so-called popular songs rise from the youthful soul in response to deep personal or social emotions.

At this fourth stage of the five-fold sequence, what is presented to us symbolically is the reaction of the individual who has become sensitive to many life currents in his environment and who is able to exteriorize this welling-up response as a gift to his society, displaying VIRTUOSITY."

Yep, very tough to beat, just as i remembered.
the Part of Fortune for the "rectified" chart is derived to have been found to be at 23* Gemini 09' 21", viz., the 24th degree of Gemini. That is a Second Level Sabian Symbol, i.e. Emotional/Cultural is the manner by which it has to be made active and effective.
[ibid.]

"GEMINI 24°: CHILDREN SKATING OVER A FROZEN VILLAGE POND.

KEYNOTE:
The use of inhibiting circumstances for the development of character and a transcendent approach to the environment.

Winter symbolizes darkness and the restrictions imposed upon living things by cold. Natural life is in a state of hibernation or inward-turned activity. Yet the developing mind can learn to use restrictions and the disciplining power of 'cold' external responses to rise above the outer 'freeze' and to grow in strength and skill. Man is nature rising above the cyclic oscillation of natural polarities. His way is often the via negativa. He learns rhythmic freedom ('skating') by using the most binding situations ('ice') to demonstrate his transcendent capacity for pleasure and self-mobilization.

Here again the fourth stage symbol presents us with a special technique. It is a mental technique inasmuch as it is through mind that man can transcend the entropy of the universal process of existence. We see here indeed man's TRIUMPH OVER ENTROPY."

...and... pooh, Yeah I can see it there too. Not as appropriately as I believe that I see the Part of Fortune for the mother derived chart but, none the less, enough so that I can't disqualify it.

this is going to take more analysis of, yet more, Astrological Parts.
But which ones?
While I can easily see that the Sabian for my Part of Soul is "the one and only" and I can see the same for the one derived from ny proposed true and genuine natal chart of Yeshu'a/Jesus...[because Edgar Cayce gave so much information concerning the soul of Yeshu'a/Jesus, that's why} it's very difficult to know what is in a mans' soul so I won't use that one for a comparison, although I will find out what it is and let you all know as well, just because we would all like to know what it is... I surely would, anyways.

I think, at least for now as I'll give it a lot more thought overnight and maybe even for a few days, that I should best try the Parts of Increase & Benefits, Noble & Illustrious Acquaintances ...both formulae, those that He deemed as such and vice versa, the Part of Catastrophe aka Hermetic Lot of Nemesis, most definitely as well as the Hermetic Lot of Eros and both formulae for that one as well.

If one or more of those doesn't solve the riddle... I'll keep at it and that will all be done and demonstrated right here in this thread... ...so then...
...as they say...
STAYED TUNED
HARE KRISHNA
HARE RAMA
...and...
HARE YESHU'A
OM TAT SAT OM
ptv [Devananda]
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Unread 06-20-2019, 02:23 AM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,436
Re: George Harrison and hiis two controversial natal charts, which one is true?

Just a note, that I do intend to get back to this endeavor. It's only for the reason that I became a bit swamped by obligations since the last post that I haven't found the time to do so yet.

I haven't abandoned this thread, and will get back to it when I can... despite the dearth number of views it has to date.
Thank you all for your patience.
ptv
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Unread 06-20-2019, 07:33 AM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,436
Re: George Harrison and hiis two controversial natal charts, which one is true?

Well, I have returned to this thread far sooner than I thought earlier this evening when I wrote the post above.I managed to derive three more Astrological Parts this evening, six altogether, considering that there are two charts and all effort as such is doubled in number.

The three Parts I I now have in addition are, the Part of Catastrophe, the Part of Sudden Advancement aka the Hermetic Lot of Nemesis, and the Part of Increase & Benefits.

The Part of Catastrophe has repeatedly proven itself to be aptly titled* and is derived by using the formula, Asc. + Jupiter - Sun, *[see my thread "Birth Chart of Jesus?' for one such example]. For the data George's mother supplied us with that calculates to be at 28* Capricorn 27' 44". For that of the "rectified" chart, it's at 23* Capricorn 42' 04".

So, let's see what the Sabian Symbols have to offer towards the solution as to which of the two natal charts we have is the "real deal".

For that of His Mothers' data, this is of the Individual/Mental Level variety out of the three possibilities that Dane identified. [The following two Sabian Symbols were checked for accuracy as to being a word for word transcription of the original text as written and published by Dane Rudhyar, which only recently became a concern due to a few inconsistencies I found between what the website Mindfire has posted online, and which I use for convenience but I may not very much longer, and what was actually published. ptv][ibid.]

"CAPRICORN 29°: A WOMAN READING TEA LEAVES.

KEYNOTE:
The ability to see the Signature of hidden meaning in every occurrence drawing one's attention.

Man has always sought to interpret the meaning of events or situations which baffle him in terms of specific omens or 'Signatures'. The reading of tea leaves is only a commonplace modern version of a certain type of procedure used by priests of all ancient religions. The practice is based on a realization of 'the relation of everything to everything else' — a definition of astrology given by Marc Jones. Dream interpretation in depth psychology belongs to the same category, as it is based upon the establishment of a close connection between the unconscious and the conscious. But in dream analysis the individual unconscious, at least at first, is mainly referred to, while in omens (or modern fortune-telling at its best) one relies upon the power of occult forces or entities to convey the information that will clarify confusing situations.

This fourth stage symbol can be referred to a specific 'technique' of understanding or evaluation. What is implied is the ability not only to perceive the facts of everyday existence, but to see through these facts and discover how they are related to the realm of basic meanings or archetypal processes. This is essentially what is meant by true
CLAIRVOYANCE, the capacity to see in everything the Signature of deeper realities."


....hmmm?

...and the Part of Catastrophe derived form the "rectified chart...which is of the Emotional/Cultural level, as identified and described by Dane Rudhyar
[ibid.]

"CAPRICORN 24°: A WOMAN ENTERING A CONVENT.

KEYNOTE:
Total commitment to a transcendent goal.

A convent is a place made available by a community which believes in the possibility of reaching a world-transcending state of consciousness. It is made available to individuals who may be variously motivated. To some it is an escape from the intolerable pressures of family and society; to others it represents the possibility of pursuing in peace a spiritual ideal to which the whole being aspires and is totally dedicated. The important point, in this phase of the cyclic process, is that the existence of a convent expresses another aspect of the relationship between the society (its religion and culture) and the individual. In the preceding symbol society rewarded the individual for a noble performance in its service; here society accepts the fact that beyond its daily normal patterns of behavior and commitments, another way of life exists which, in a higher sense, also has social value. In the old Hindu society dominated by a rigid caste system, the
ideal embodied in the sannyasi — the wandering holy man or yogi meditating in a forest or a cave, who had entirely given up all that caste implied — was seen to be the very culmination of the social process.

In this fourth stage symbol we see the paradoxical nature of the social process operating more strongly than ever. This derives from the fact that man's nature contains in seed the possibility of overcoming and transcending itself in acts of complete denials and of surrender to a 'higher' Law or quality of being. All spiritual techniques are indeed paradoxical. Rigid discipline conditions pure inner freedom. The final goal is the attainment of
TRANSCENDENT SECURITY.
"



...hmmmm? Just as enigmatic as the previous Parts I have analyzed in comparison are as to which of the two is the more, if not undoubtedly completely, symbolic of what George Harrison's inevitable catastrophe was?

I have read that while George introduced the other Beatles to the practice of "Transcendental Meditation" and found that while he became more immersed in pursing his spiritual nature through that, and subsequent similar endeavors, John, Paul, and Ringo had little continuous interest and that it contributed to the eventual break up of the band. But was that such a catastrophe to George? ...as for what I've read, He wanted out as His contributions were not appreciated by John and Paul. At least not until George's composition "Something" was released on the album, "Abbey Road", in 1969, and was also Harrison's first composition to become the "A" side of a single, with Lennon's tune, "Come Together", as the "B" side.
The single topped the Billboard Hot 100 in the United States as well as charts in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and West Germany, and peaked at number 4 in the UK.

According to wikipedia [Quote] "Due to the difficulty he faced in getting more than two of his compositions onto each Beatles album, Harrison first offered "Something" to Joe Cocker. As recorded by the Beatles, the track features a guitar solo that several music critics identify among Harrison's finest playing. The song also drew praise from the other Beatles and their producer, George Martin, with Lennon stating that it was the best song on Abbey Road. The promotional film for the single combined footage of each of the Beatles with their respective wife, reflecting the estrangement in the band during the months preceding the official announcement of their break-up in April 1970." [Unquote, bold italics were added by me for emphasis]

While I'm certainly far from being considered an expert on the life of George Harrison, I don't recall anything about his trying to see a hidden meaning in the events of his life Many people that I personally know consider the Beatles breaking up to have been something of a "catastrophe", but was it really as such to George Harrison? Maybe the Part of Catastrophe isn't always, if even at all, about what might be a "catastrophe" to the individual in question, yet is to all others that know of it and what it meant to them and the world as a whole?

All things, as such, presently considered, I'm going to give the weight of this analysis to the rectified chart given for the birth.

As it is now well past mid-night here, in California... I will continue with the other two Astrological Parts, I mentioned, that I have derived from the two charts to compare, r.e. the Part of Sudden Advancement aka the Hermetic Lot of Nemesis and that of the Part of Increase & Benefits, on another day.

I have an appointment to keep in the morning ahead and the maintenance person for my apartment complex is supposed to be here in the morning as well. I'd rather get adequate sleep now than try to "catch up" on it tomorrow afternoon.

So, until then...
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe

Last edited by piercethevale; 06-20-2019 at 07:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Unread 06-20-2019, 11:27 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54,573
Re: George Harrison and hiis two controversial natal charts, which one is true?

It should be noted that George’s sister Louise
twelve years his senior, has disputed rectified time.
She says that she has a birth record in their mother’s hand-writing
giving the time as 00.10 a.m. on the 25th
and that her mother was awake and aware.

It was a home birth, no digital clocks around in wartime
lots of confusion and clearing up and
sadly, no awareness of the crucial importance of a birth time!

Astro-Databank at astro.com has accepted the given birthdate
as being "From memory" and given it a Rodden Rating of A
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Harrison,_George
The alternative birthdate has no rating and is viewed as ‘rectified’
.

A Rodden Rating of 'A' = Data as quoted by the person, kin, friend, or associate.
These data all come from someone's memory, family legend, or hearsay.
The quote may be substantiated by a qualifying statement
such as:
"My grandfather wanted me to be born on his birthday
and my mother said that I almost made it.
I was born three minutes before midnight."
When the information comes from an astrologer's client
it is considered reliable, since a client is investing money
for the astrologer's time and expertise.

When the quote is from a public figure given in public
it may be questionable.

Please keep in mind that public figures, especially politicians
answer a question in public to be accommodating
therefore, the time given may not be accurate.

At this distance in time, it is perhaps impossible to establish for sure
yet it is a question that needs to be addressed

https://www.astro.com/astrology/aa_article190502_e.htm
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Unread 06-21-2019, 10:25 AM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,436
Re: George Harrison and hiis two controversial natal charts, which one is true?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
It should be noted that George’s sister Louise
twelve years his senior, has disputed rectified time.
She says that she has a birth record in their mother’s hand-writing
giving the time as 00.10 a.m. on the 25th
and that her mother was awake and aware.

It was a home birth, no digital clocks around in wartime
lots of confusion and clearing up and
sadly, no awareness of the crucial importance of a birth time!

Astro-Databank at astro.com has accepted the given birthdate
as being "From memory" and given it a Rodden Rating of A
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Harrison,_George
The alternative birthdate has no rating and is viewed as ‘rectified’
.

A Rodden Rating of 'A' = Data as quoted by the person, kin, friend, or associate.
These data all come from someone's memory, family legend, or hearsay.
The quote may be substantiated by a qualifying statement
such as:
"My grandfather wanted me to be born on his birthday
and my mother said that I almost made it.
I was born three minutes before midnight."
When the information comes from an astrologer's client
it is considered reliable, since a client is investing money
for the astrologer's time and expertise.

When the quote is from a public figure given in public
it may be questionable.

Please keep in mind that public figures, especially politicians
answer a question in public to be accommodating
therefore, the time given may not be accurate.

At this distance in time, it is perhaps impossible to establish for sure
yet it is a question that needs to be addressed

https://www.astro.com/astrology/aa_article190502_e.htm

Yes, I am well aware of all that. I did write in the opening to my first post above a quote from the article at astrodienst that sparked my interest to pursue an effort of the same using techniques the other hadn't, that is to say, techniques that employ the use of Sabian Symbols as presented, interpreted and defined by the last Dane Rudhyar.... a marvelous and insightful astrologer and as a symbologist, there was, and has never been since, anyone his equal... at least not anyone that has ever attempted to understand the Sabian Symbols and present them to the world.
They are a marvelous tool when used for rectification.

That is the point of this thread, to give demonstration on how one might proceed in using them in such a manner. Is it the best manner of doing so, you might ask?
To that question I have to admit, I don't know yet, It is what has worked well fro me up to this time yet there may be other ways of using them when attempting to rectify a natal chart.

These very same techniques are what I discovered while working with the chart I produced for the date Edgar Cayce gave as the birth of Jesus/Yeshu'a of Nazareth, they are the techniques that also convinced me of the veracity of that chart being the only one possible that Jesus could of had, they use of them further allowed me to rectify the birth time I first began with, i.e. 5:22 p.m. to that of 5:23 p.m. and I know for certain that it is a few seconds before 5:23 pm. but am using a 5:23 p.m. chart as for the reason it is close enough . The precise time and chart is locked away in another computer of mine that is being repaired and if the repair is unsuccessful, then I will have all the files extracted and put on a "flash drive".

These very same techniques allowed me to determine that my own recorded birth time is 16 seconds in time after the exact moment. These same techniques have allowed me to rectify the birth charts of at least a dozen peoples charts that are of personal friends of mine.

But, as I also have already mentioned, it is difficult to use these techniques when you don't know enough about the person, their habits, their personal history, etc. And that both of these charts are churning out symbolism so pertinent, so relevant, to what I do know about George Harrison and his life.
It's turning out to be a real challenge and I may end up with nothing to offer as for a definite opinion as to either of the two charts.

As the author of the article wrote [and I did quote her in the opening of the initial post{Quote}] "An ardent Beatles fan examines the life and times of the ‘Quiet One’ and his two birth charts (one rectified – thanks to his interest in astrology). Among other things, can we tell from his appearance and behaviour which was his likely rising sign – Libra or Scorpio?"[Unquote]

The author of the article also continued with the following: [Quote]
The first issue that must be addressed here is birthday data, because George Harrison well and truly muddied the waters on this subject.

t should be noted that George’s sister Louise, twelve years his senior, has disputed this new time. She says that she has a birth record in their mother’s hand-writing giving the time as 00.10 a.m. on the 25th and that her mother was awake and aware. It was a home birth, no digital clocks around in wartime, lots of confusion and clearing up and, sadly, no awareness of the crucial importance of a birth time! Astro-Databank at astro.com has accepted the given birthdate and given it a Rodden Rating of A. The alternative birthdate has no rating and is viewed as ‘rectified’. At this distance in time, it is perhaps impossible to establish for sure, yet for the purposes of writing a piece about it, it is a question that needs to be addressed.
"[Unquote]

So, basically then, you've taken from the article what was already presented by the author, the article I gave a link to and that I figured that anyone that was really interested in this thread, and the subject matter, would read before following along with whatever I had to say about the controversy. [might it be possible that you are the author of the article? I hadn't considered that possibility until now.]

OH, silly me, obviously not, as you claim the time given is from memory when in fact it is from a written journal. Sheeesh, You didn't read the article?

So then anyone that is following along that didn't read the article at the link I provided you can thank JUPITERASC for assuring that you are now fully informed of the reason why it is a controversy... and also gave a demonstration as to why you should have read the article [I'm not sure, but isn't that a "Disclaimer"?]

Now, on to what I promised in my last post.
The analysis of some more Astrological Parts through the Sabian Symbols found for them according to the degrees of the Zodiac they are located to be in.

I will only get to one of the Parts in this post, as for the little time I have left this evening as for having to write in reply to the post above.

I will pick that of the Part of Increase & Benefits. As ones income for their endeavors are a matter of influence from this Astrological Part let's see if the Sabian Symbolism found for the two different degrees the charts provide us with can help determine which is more likely to be the accurate birth chart.
a
The Part of Increase & Benefits is determined by the formula Asc. + Jupiter - Sun, and that derived from the chart Georges mother gave us the data for is at 13* Pisces 18' 31".
That is the 14th degree of Pisces and by Rudhyar's analysis he presented it as [the following Sabian Symbols have been checked for being exactly as published originally in the book written by Dane Rudhyar and found to be without error or omission][ibid.]

"PISCES 14°: A LADY WRAPPED IN A LARGE STOLE OF FOX FUR.

KEYNOTE:
The use of intelligence and mental subtlety as a protection against storms and trials.

Coming just after the preceding symbols and as the fourth stage of a five-fold sequence, which is usually related to some kind of technique, this symbol may at first seem irrelevant. The key to its interpretation, missed by the commentators, is fox fur. In symbolism and mythology the fox is always a clever and subtle animal. It represents the intellect at its early stage of 'cunning'; in a broader sense, it also refers to 'intelligence', considered as the ability to adapt to any and all life situations. Spiritual will and the ability to stand in facing tests are necessary in any crucial or challenging situation that an individual meets within a power-oriented group. But the sword-like will often has to be shielded, and intelligence or acumen can be the most precious help in danger. It is a personal (i.e. 'animal' or instinctual) shield, perhaps even a camouflage. It hides the central will, but it keeps the individual from unnecessary hardships.

What we see symbolized here is a self-protective way of meeting the inclemencies of weather, actual or psychic, which abound as one leads a life consecrated to a vaster Whole; for this very consecration arouses strong enmities. Unnecessary risks are forbidden to the initiate, for the security of the Brotherhood might be endangered. The need for
PROTECTIVE SHIELDING is imperative, and glamour can be an effective shield.
"

Wow, what a symbol as to possibly be for George Harrison's Part of Increase & Benefits. Most everyone that might be reading this likely know of the lawsuit leveled at him for alleged plagiarism stated to be pertaining to his beautiful composition and performance of it on his album, "All Things Must Pass", the song in which He expressed his spiritual love for the object of devotion of his spiritual heart, his hridayam [in Sanskrit, of Vedic philosophy] the song, "My Sweet Lord"

As Dane pointed out in his text; "What we see symbolized here is a self-protective way of meeting the inclemencies of weather, actual or psychic, which abound as one leads a life consecrated to a vaster Whole; for this very consecration arouses strong enmities."
Is it possible that the lawsuit was as much, or even more, as for reasons of such enmities than it was as for getting some of the great sum of money that album brought George?

The Sabian Symbol for the 14th degree of Pisces is of the Third Level classification Dane assigned to all the Signs for the degrees 11 through 15 and 26 through 30, that of it being of the Individual/Mental level in how it influences us and as to how we have to utilize it if we are to use the knowledge of it being associated with whatever astrological influence it may happen to be found in our own natal charts to our advantage.
As, from what I read, George was being taken lightly by John Lennon and Paul McCartney as being talented enough to provide any original musical composition of his own that was truly worthwhile of being on any of the Beatles albums. I've even read, according to a few sources, that Lennon was even jealous of the success of his triple album and the praise the critics were giving it.
That would seem to indicate a need for "mental protection"

The true artists of the world are such a sensitive lot that success is often as much a curse as it is a blessing. For over time many suffer the barbs of critics and the jealous, lawsuits brought against mostly for the only reason as to try to get a piece of the pie that they worked so hard to make for themselves.

As it is followed by 15th degree of Pisces and that is where my own antal charts' Hermetic Lot of Necessity happens to be, which is then the next step, or phase, in the cyclic process of transformation, in a mundane sense, it precedes that of the 14th degree when understood to be a process of transformation regarding ones spiritual evolution it is similiar in a sense as they are both about protectionm although the 15th degree is openly acknowledging that they will be assaults and assume a mental state as like that of a soldier heading for the front lines in warfare. Check it out, the 15th of Pisces [ibid.]

"PISCES 15: AN OFFICER INSTRUCTING HIS MEN BEFORE A SIMULATED ASSAULT UNDER A BARRAGE OF LIVE SHELLS.
KEYNOTE: The need for thorough rehearsing before any complex and inherently dangerous social ritual in which power is used or evoked."

[Anyone that can see how the above might be such an necessity as to someone like myself, as for what I've written about Jesus/Yeshu'a of Nazareth, the writing I have done demonstrating the erroneous practices and beliefs of "Traditional astrology" , et al then will likely be interested in an old thread I have that is either in this same sub forum or may have been moved to the astrological Parts sub-forum, titled, "Your Emergency Preparedness Kit, the Hermetic Lots of Courage, Necessity, and Victory" ]


Let's have a look at the Part of Increase & Benefits derived from the rectified chart, shall we?

The Part so derived is found to be at 08* Pisces 32' 56", i.e. the 9th degree of Pisces... and I got such a kick out of it when I saw that it is in the 9th degree of Pisces as I am very familiar with what the Sabian Symbol for that degree as it has appeared in a few charts of close friends of mine, notably the fellow I identify as "Mitch", in my book. But the reason I got that kick from seeing it is that it seems so appropriate to George as it always has reminded me of His song, "Dark Horse"
Please note that it is of the Emotional/Cultural Level as identified by Dane[ibid.]

"PISCES 9°: A JOCKEY SPURS HIS HORSE, INTENT ON OUT-DISTANCING HIS RIVALS.

KEYNOTE:
Intense mobilization of energy and skill in the drive for success in any social performance affected by the competitive spirit.

Since the end of the archaic ages and the stressing of individualism, especially in our American society which worships the material images of "success," the desire to win any kind of "race" engenders an often-feverish release of energy controlled by technical skill and long practice. Wherever this symbol is found, it indicates the need to spur one's total being toward speedy attainment of whatever goal it may be.

This is the fourth symbol in the sixty-eighth series; its technical significance is quite evident. Every superfluous "weight," every unnecessary consideration is to be dismissed in the one-pointed attempt to reach one's social goal.
SELF-QUICKENING may be the Keyword.


Well, as for which of the two possibilities that are offered as being the Sabaian Symbol relevant in symbolism as to what it meant regarding the matters of Benefits & Increase to George?
Once again it's a tough call as they both have relevance but I feel that the weight of credibility here is more as to the symbol of it being from competitive drive more than mental cunning and an application of protection
I have to go with the rectified chart for this one as well.


Next, I'll be looking at and comparing the Part of Sudden Advancement aka Hermetic Lot of Nemesis found to be for each of the two natal charts of controversy. Perhaps the Part of Art and the Part of Love & Appreciation, as they seem to be requisite and the Part of Intelligence and Skill might be a good choice as well. I should probably have some more to share by Saturday evening, Sunday afternoon for sure.
Thanks for reading and keep using the Sabian Symbols in addition to your other astrological practices you will either immediately or eventually become a believer in them yourselves.
In fact, I'd bet on it.
ptv
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe

Last edited by piercethevale; 06-21-2019 at 11:05 AM. Reason: punctuation, spelling and grammar.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Unread 02-25-2020, 09:54 PM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,436
Re: George Harrison and hiis two controversial natal charts, which one is true?

My room mate came across a page on facebook today in honor of what would have been, George's 77th birthday, yesterday , Feb. 24th.
It has a quote by George himself.
Here's an excerpt from that page, copied and pasted, as follows.
"Up until his 49th birthday George Harrison believed he was born on February 25th. In 1992 He announced, 'I only learned recently after all these years that the date and time of my own birth have always been off by one calendar day and about a half hour on the clock." The family birth record noted him as being born shortly before midnight around 11:50 P.M. on February 24th, 1943 in Liverpool, Lancashire, England."

Here's the link.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...90593027693530

I'm going to have to review what I wrote in this thread, it's been sometime since I last gave it any thought or attention. I thought that I should give you members this info as you may wish to review your own notes, or maybe someone has any other source that is contentious to the above.

I'm sure that as to astrologers here that are also fans of the Beatles, esp. George, as I am, you'd like to know as much astrological truth about the man as I do.
ptv
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Unread 02-25-2020, 10:04 PM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,436
Re: George Harrison and hiis two controversial natal charts, which one is true?

As I see in review that George's sister Louise said their mother recalled 10 minutes past midnight and George said a half hours' difference made it the day before, in so many words, then the time of my one chart being at 11:42 P.M. I think it's very likely it within a minute, possibly two. I'll be reviewing this to be sure of any conclusions I may have made, and be back sometime, hopefully ere too long.
ptv
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Unread 02-25-2020, 10:24 PM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,436
Re: George Harrison and hiis two controversial natal charts, which one is true?

As I recently got a member or two interested in examine one Rudhyarian technique with the Sabian Symbols that I didn't demonstrate with the chart I propose is likely Georges, that is the symbolic analysis of the Sabian found for the 12th House cusp.

The Sabian Symbol found for the Sign and degree of the Zodiac that the 12th House cusp is on is to be interpreted as that individuals' answer to what they perceive is the greatest problem world society, at large, faces.

From that chart about that is the 10th degree of Libra. [ibid.]

"LIBRA 9°: THREE "OLD MASTERS" HANGING ON THE WALL OF A SPECIAL ROOM IN AN ART GALLERY.
KEYNOTE:
The need to return to source during a confused search for new value in a chaotic society.
There are always moments which focus in our minds the longing to re-ground ourselves in the great achievements of the past. The number 3 suggests completeness; esoteric traditions speak of the three-fold Soul, or of three fundamental 'Rays' — of Power, of Love-Wisdom, and of Intelligence-in-action. Meditation, in its deepest sense, is a return to Source — an attempt to re-identify oneself with one's archetypal essence of being, which is triune in manifestation, and now) after confused but challenging wanderings, to identify oneself consciously with this 'essence'. The finer forms of one's culture provide the means to do this. The great moments of the collective past become an inspiration for new, yet sound, beginnings. The seed of tomorrow salutes the seed of yesteryear.
At this fourth stage of the thirty-eighth sequence it is suggested that in the process of 'Transfiguration' the presence of the greatest moments of the past is called upon, as Moses and Elijah were invoked in Jesus' Transfiguration. The seed of the new day depends upon the seed of yesteryear for an experience of the cyclic continuity of spirit. This is the basis for the institutionalized ideal of
APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION, the guruampara (an uninterrupted chain of gurus) of Indian tradition.


OM Hare Krishna
OM Hare Rama
Om Narayana Vishnu OM OM OM

How's that for "Three Old Masters"?
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
charts, controversial, george, harrison, hiis, natal, true

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.