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Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


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  #1  
Unread 12-18-2008, 02:17 PM
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Equal House Systems

I was wondering how people use the equal house system.

Do you use the Asc as the first house cusp and carry on...

Or do you use the Asc sign as the first house cusp and carry on...

In other words if an Asc was 29 degrees Aries, would your 1st house cusp be Aries 29, or Aries 00? I am under the impression that the latter was the traditional method, used by Lily and early astrologers.

Would love to learn some tips etc as I have always been a Placidus man, and am looking to dabble in some equality...

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Unread 12-18-2008, 03:48 PM
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Re: Equal House Systems

All your houses will then start at 29 degrees.
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Unread 12-18-2008, 04:37 PM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScorpiosRock
All your houses will then start at 29 degrees.
Yes - (I think) the 0 degrees Aries option is the "Whole House System", where the Ascendant would still 29 degrees/1 degree before the second house cusp.

EJ
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Unread 12-18-2008, 04:43 PM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Ok, why do people use the equal house sytem over the whole house one, if the latter was the historic one. Was there some sea change in astrological history?

And in the equal house system, the Asc dictates the houses, but the IC and MC float around houses? I've never understood why this should be so- how do you interpret an MC in the 11th house and reconcile it with the 10th house cusp sign or planet?
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Unread 12-19-2008, 07:22 AM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Sundance_Kid
Ok, why do people use the equal house system over the whole house one, if the latter was the historic one. Was there some sea change in astrological history?
I don't know but, hopefully, someone who does will reply in due course.

However, maybe the natural zodiac house system came first (with everyone having the same houses) - then the whole house system recognised individuality (by using the ascendant to identify the rising house) - then the Equal House system was deemed to be still more individual (by using the ascendant degree to determine each house cusp). Then, I suppose the historical sea change in thinking would be recognisation of the individual. But, that's all speculation - and I'm not even sure what the chronological order of house system development is.

Quote:
And in the equal house system, the Asc dictates the houses, but the IC and MC float around houses? I've never understood why this should be so
The "technical" reason is because the rising degree on the horizon at the time of birth determines the Asc and (therefore) the cusp of the first house plus the opposite cusp on the 7th house. The MC however is the highest point in the sky that a planet can reach on the day - following the path of the intersection between the ecliptic and the longitude of the place of birth. So, it's very unlikely that this "highest point" will fall conveniently on the cusp of the 10th Equal House - whereas other systems actually set this point as that cusp because of it's astrological significance. (In essence then, the Equal House system is based upon only one point/asc - whilst most other systems also use the MC as the 10th house cusp.)

Quote:
...how do you interpret an MC in the 11th house and reconcile it with the 10th house cusp sign or planet?
Sounds too simple, but the Equal House system separates the meanings of the MC and 10th house cusp. So, the latter is still where you look for matters of career, etc - but a planet close to the MC remains emphasised as the highest planet in the sky. All that has changed is that the emphasised planet is now focused upon 11th house matters rather than 10th.

Offering lame guesses rather than saying nothing at all to help.

EJ

Last edited by EJ53; 12-19-2008 at 07:24 AM.
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Unread 12-19-2008, 02:19 PM
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Re: Equal House Systems

I also asked a question about MC in equal house system. Intuitively, I see the difference between MC and the 10th, where 10th house is about one's standing in the society and career, while MC has more to do with personal goals and aspirations, life path... but then MC becomes somewhat similar to North Node.

Yeah, I am confused. There must be a definite way to separate them all.
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Unread 12-19-2008, 08:20 PM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Lilly did not use the equal house systems; he used Regiomantanus. During the Renaissance, astrologers who often were also mathematicians, invented new house systems to show how accomplished they were. There is no reason to think that these new houses were more effective or easier to use. They just added complications to the older classical system. If you read Lilly's examples, he often does not use the distorted houses that Regiomantanus would give him at the latitude of London: They give the wrong significators. Instead he resorts to other methods to draw his conclusions.

Also Lilly did not use the house cusps as house boundaries. The English word cusp is from classical Latin cuspis meaning point of a spear, sting of a bee or scorpion. It does not mean boundary at all but point. Using the cusp as a boundary appears to be a recent mistake. Earlier astrologers were aware that using the cusp gave unreliable results. Lilly used five degress before the cusp, but in the 1800s astrologers devised their own formulas to calculate the boundaries which were often twelve degrees from the cusp. They do not give many reasons for this, and I have not found these methods to mean anything.

With the classical whole sign system, the house boundaries are the same as that of the signs. The sign which has the ascendant degree is the first house. The cusp is the ascendant degree and the same degree is the cusp in each of the other houses. The MC degree is not the 10th house cusp and may also fall in the 11th or 9th houses or others at higher latitudes. This is the point of culmination the highest point. It does not have meaning of itself, but any planet or fixed star on it is especially important in the chart, and it may add importance to the house where it is located.
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Unread 12-20-2008, 10:16 AM
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Re: Equal House Systems

I love equal house system. It's great! It fits natal charts better than placidus does imho
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Unread 12-21-2008, 02:17 AM
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Re: Equal House Systems

I generally use Placidus, but it doesn't work at high latitudes: if someone was born in northern Scandinavia, Scotland, Canada, Alaska (US), Russia, &c. their house cusps get very distorted, with some houses huge and some very tiny. If I look at a chart for someone with this factor, I will generally look at several house systems, notably the equal house system, and then try to interpolate a bit between them.

A whole sign system might work best if you don't know someone's exact birth time, but know it within 1-2 hours: then you might just go with the rising sign as 0 degrees.

To me the disadvantage of a whole sign or equal house system is that they don't generate any intercepted signs (i. e., where one sign is totally enclosed by its neighbouring signs on either side, such that they form the house cusps. The opposite sign will also be intercepted. For example, someone might have Capricorn on the cusp of the 5th house, Aquarius intercepted, and Pisces on the cusp of the 6th house. Then s/he would also have Cancer on the cusp of the 11th house, Leo intercepted, and Virgo on the cusp of the 12th. With Placidus, intercepted signs are not common, but I think they have meaning. You just don't get them with houses that are equal pie-sectors of 30 degrees.

To astrologers who like equal house or whole sign systems, intercepted signs are a draw-back, so they happily work without them. I have started to think that planets in intercepted signs never really get the recognition or "traction" you would think they deserve, and that these placements do affect people.

But beyond all of this, most astrologers work with their favoured house systems and get good-enough results, regardless.

Last edited by waybread; 12-21-2008 at 02:19 AM.
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Unread 12-27-2008, 03:54 PM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Sundance_Kid
Ok, why do people use the equal house sytem over the whole house one, if the latter was the historic one. Was there some sea change in astrological history?

And in the equal house system, the Asc dictates the houses, but the IC and MC float around houses? I've never understood why this should be so- how do you interpret an MC in the 11th house and reconcile it with the 10th house cusp sign or planet?
EJ53 some very well put matters regarding Equal House.
I really havent a clue as to Whole House and dont know why someone would want to even study it really...

iwonder
There is no difference in interpretations between MC and 10th house, both are same. MC is not similar to N Node either.


Moulin,
Great, i'm with you. I teach, lecture and public speak on Equal hous system...


Waybread,
I really cannot see the point in intercepted signs, just seems like you are making too much like hard work for nothing....


THE most important factor between Placidus (unequal house systems) and Equal house is that planets will move to different houses depending on the system you use. SO therefore, no substitute for study, research on your own chart to see what works for you then!!

You will know which works for you cos you will not be able to accept a certain planet and its energies in a certain house with placidus, but when you change to Equal it fits like a glove.
BUT you have to have an analytical frame of mind and be capable of being objective to analyse yourself thoroughly. but to me this is what astrology is ALL about anyway, a form of psychology. To know thyself
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Unread 12-27-2008, 06:04 PM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by astrologer50
I really havent a clue as to Whole House and dont know why someone would want to even study it really...
I have to say that I've become a little bit of a fan of the Whole House system. It's very similar to the results for the Equal system but I can time some events of my life by planets moving between signs; which would seem relevant to the whole system.
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Unread 12-28-2008, 01:05 AM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Thank you EJ and Culpeper- I think I must have seen an example of old astrologer's using the 5 or 12 degree pre-cusp cusp thing and it matched the sign cusp so I thought they were using some whole sign method. Also people often refer to the horizon (both above and below) being the 1st house, but I understand now.

EJ, Astro 50, IOO- They use it alot in Vedic astrology. Also if one thinks of interceptions as bad, then a planet in a house but not the sign on the cusp of that house must also pose some problems. So in that sense it must have some advantage. It might also help with the vaguer cusp boundaries Culpeper mentions... Do equal house astrologers as a rule interpret a planet close to the cusp as in the next house? I think most Placidisicians do.

Moulin, Astro 50, I Wonder- I'm going through my chart to see if equal house fits. Will let you know... how should I interpret the MC and 10th house cusps if they mean the same thing? Same for IC too? And I can see why one might think of the MC as being similar to the north node

Waybread, Astro 50- I think intercepted signs and houses are a valuable layer in the chart- they are a powerful factor in overall planet dignities etc, as if one sign rules 2 houses that ruling planet has much more influence. This can help us be more subtle in the relative powers of planets. Then again, if you can get a chart to work without them, then less work

Will also dabble with Regiomontanus. No one seems a fan of old Reg these days.
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Unread 12-28-2008, 01:10 AM
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Re: Equal House Systems

It's rather strange really, the reason I can't pick between them is that they so often lead me to the same results in my chart, but that can't be true for alll charts. Whichever way you do it, my 10th house and MC rulers are conjunct my Asc, and my IC and 4th house rulers either rule or are in the 2nd house.

The only difference is in one chart I have Mars in 3rd and Jupiter in 4th and Aries on 5th (aggressive children), and in the other Mars in 4th, Jupiter in 5th and Aries on 6th (overall great, maybe fat, children.) I don't have children yet, will let you know!
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Unread 12-28-2008, 01:18 AM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by astrologer50
iwonder
There is no difference in interpretations between MC and 10th house, both are same. MC is not similar to N Node either.
There is no difference in Placidus. But how do you treat MC in equal house when it falls in 11th or 9th house?
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Unread 12-28-2008, 08:06 PM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Astrologer50 et al., re: intercepted houses in Placidus...

I used to dismiss them as make-work chart factors, also, till I began to re-think them based on (a) my chart and (b) other people's charts. The best way I can put it is that:

1.) A planet in an intercepted house just doesn't get a lot of "traction." Its sign and aspects may suggest some strong potentials for the person, but these just don't seem to happen in the persons's life. The energy gets overshadowed, such that a person may not get the recognition, benefits, or fulfillment from those planets that you would think.

I don't think this is a huge issue if, say, Neptune is intercepted; but if someone's sun is in an intercepted house, it can make a big difference.

Basically I am a pragmatist. If something seems to work in astrology, I would like to use it, even if it takes a little extra time.

2.) I work extensively with "accidental rulers" of house cusps. I. e., if someone has Gemini on the cusp of the 7th house, then I would look to Mercury's house location and aspects to help get a handle on that person's long-term relationship potential. A great book on this technique is by the respected Dutch astrologer, Karen Hamaker-Zondag, The House Connection. What happens, then, if you have intercepted signs (and if you have one, its opposite sign will also be intercepted) is that you have planets that don't rule any house cusps (like Uranus if Aquarius/Leo is intercepted) or that rule one house cusp rather than two (like Venus if Taurus/Scorpio is intercepted). This phenomenon can strengthen some planets in a chart (they're "doing for two") and weaken others.

iwonder, if you you use a house system where the angles fall within signs but not on house cusps, I think you would just treat them as sensitive points, with the same meanings as usual (MC=public image, vocation.)

Sundance Kid, if you find the same results with several different house systems, this is good news because, even though the cusp degrees will vary, you basically can read your planets' house placements with a lot of confidence.

Last edited by waybread; 12-28-2008 at 08:08 PM.
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Unread 12-28-2008, 09:37 PM
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Re: Equal House Systems

waybread,
Karen Hamaker-Zondag, The House Connection. Have this book think its great too

"Basically I am a pragmatist. If something seems to work in astrology, I would like to use it, even if it takes a little extra time."
Same for me, if Equal house works and it does for me, then no need to complicate matters any further.

iwonder,
MC falling in 11th or 9th. If your talking about something transting MC it has to transit MC and not 10th house. Use 10th house cusp and ruler or planets there as you would you 10th house quite simple.....MC does have slightly more meaning though

Doesnt really matter where you MC falls, its ALL about house cusps, and planets in houses. Cos Equal and unequal house systems, Planets simply move from one house to another........dont they. So analyse, read, study and evaluate for yourself, you should be able to recognise yourself with the planets in the correct house for YOU.....

The sundance kid,
"The only difference is in one chart I have Mars in 3rd and Jupiter in 4th and Aries on 5th (aggressive children), and in the other Mars in 4th, Jupiter in 5th and Aries on 6th (overall great, maybe fat, children.) I don't have children yet, will let you know!"

Well study interpet, analyse, one will fit better than the other. Mars in 3rd will always be on fone, do lots running about, short distance trips, be involved with siblings and prob speeeding tickets. Mars in 4th put phsyical energy into family matters, home roots and may well want to be in charge and assertive their....
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Unread 12-29-2008, 06:36 AM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread
I don't think this is a huge issue if, say, Neptune is intercepted; but if someone's sun is in an intercepted house, it can make a big difference.

What happens, then, if you have intercepted signs (and if you have one, its opposite sign will also be intercepted) is that you have planets that don't rule any house cusps (like Uranus if Aquarius/Leo is intercepted) or that rule one house cusp rather than two (like Venus if Taurus/Scorpio is intercepted). This phenomenon can strengthen some planets in a chart (they're "doing for two") and weaken others.
Hmm... My Sun is intercepted in Virgo, Mercury runs 3 houses, so does Jupiter, but... Jupiter is also intercepted in Pisces. In equal house system my Sun is on the 10th house cusp. Quite a difference! I need to think about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by astrologer50
MC falling in 11th or 9th. If your talking about something transting MC it has to transit MC and not 10th house. Use 10th house cusp and ruler or planets there as you would you 10th house quite simple.....MC does have slightly more meaning though
Astrologer, so in equal house system 10th house (career, reputation, authorities) is not necessarily "one’s point of maximum externalization: the social world most distant from intimate, personal life. It is what we need to do with our life in order to grow" (taken from http://www.myastrologybook.com/gloss...-rectangle.htm). That point may be in the area of hopes, aspirations and common good (11th) or visions and spiritual experiences (9th). Or in the area of career and social standing.

Is that how you treat MC?
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Unread 12-29-2008, 07:03 PM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by iwonder
Hmm... My Sun is intercepted in Virgo, Mercury runs 3 houses, so does Jupiter, but... Jupiter is also intercepted in Pisces. In equal house system my Sun is on the 10th house cusp. Quite a difference! I need to think about it.



Astrologer, so in equal house system 10th house (career, reputation, authorities) is not necessarily "one’s point of maximum externalization: the social world most distant from intimate, personal life. It is what we need to do with our life in order to grow" (taken from http://www.myastrologybook.com/gloss...-rectangle.htm). That point may be in the area of hopes, aspirations and common good (11th) or visions and spiritual experiences (9th). Or in the area of career and social standing.

Is that how you treat MC?
iwonder, I think reflecting upon your own life is the best way to see which house system works for you. I don't dispute that many fine astrologers are happy with an equal house method (notably for far northern births), but I have put some thought into this topic. And I think it does offer more interpretive power.

A super Australian astrologer, Alice Portman, feels that different systems work best for different people, and that timing Uranian transits across house cusps is a good way to find out where the cusps are best placed. The reason is because Uranus signifies sudden change. So, for example, if Uranus was approaching a husband's 7th house and his wife suddenly left him, he could compare that date with Uranus's degree.

Last edited by waybread; 12-29-2008 at 07:27 PM.
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Unread 12-29-2008, 09:25 PM
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Re: Equal House Systems

iwonder,

"Astrologer, so in equal house system 10th house (career, reputation, authorities) is not necessarily "one’s point of maximum externalization: the social world most distant from intimate, personal life. It is what we need to do with our life in order to grow" (taken from http://www.myastrologybook.com/gloss...-rectangle.htm). That point may be in the area of hopes, aspirations and common good (11th) or visions and spiritual experiences (9th). Or in the area of career and social standing.

Is that how you treat MC?"


I have my MC in 11th house is Sag, it doesnt add anything to MC the sign is most important not house. Think you trying to over analyse this now.

Remember its JUST the house cusp and certain planets possibly moving from one house to another and therefore the interpretation obviously will be different....
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Unread 12-29-2008, 10:16 PM
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Re: Equal House Systems

I know an Astrologer who also uses Heliocenteric, he says it gives another perspective. I like this lively discussion,Variety- Astrologers are definatly not boring.
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Unread 12-30-2008, 01:30 PM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread
A super Australian astrologer, Alice Portman, feels that different systems work best for different people, and that timing Uranian transits across house cusps is a good way to find out where the cusps are best placed. The reason is because Uranus signifies sudden change. So, for example, if Uranus was approaching a husband's 7th house and his wife suddenly left him, he could compare that date with Uranus's degree.
Which is easy to time if you have Uranus near your 7th house, and assuming it doesn't happen to have other planets nearby!

I mention this because I had a 'sudden' end of relationship from my then partner back in May 2003. Although events were building for a few weeks, the actual straw that broke the camel's back happened unexpectedly and quite explosively!

At the time Uranus was in 2Pisces. In the previous six months it had opposed my Sun/Moon/Venus and made a conjunction to her Aquarian Sun. I also had transiting Neptune within a degree of natal North Node and Mars. At the time of the transit, Mars and Jupiter were in almost exact opposition; with Mercury and Sun conjunct. All of which is quite a heady mix to interpret.

But getting back to Uranus ...
- under Equal, my 11th house begins at 1Pis.
- under Koch, my 12th house begins at 17Pis.
- under Placidus, my 12th begins at 3Pis (but a minute earlier would be almost conjunct transit of Uranus).

Which makes the Placidus look accurate for a house cusp, but why would 11th into 12th be relevant to a relationship breakup? If it were the 11th I could perhaps see the associated desire for independence. And if I go with Placidus, have I really got to put up with another 11 years of Uranus in my 12th house ...
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Unread 12-30-2008, 03:16 PM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Inside out orange,
"Which is easy to time if you have Uranus near your 7th house, and assuming it doesn't happen to have other planets nearby!

I mention this because I had a 'sudden' end of relationship from my then partner back in May 2003. Although events were building for a few weeks, the actual straw that broke the camel's back happened unexpectedly and quite explosively!
At the time Uranus was in 2Pisces. In the previous six months it had opposed my Sun/Moon/Venus and made a conjunction to her Aquarian Sun. I also had transiting Neptune within a degree of natal North Node and Mars. At the time of the transit, Mars and Jupiter were in almost exact opposition; with Mercury and Sun conjunct. All of which is quite a heady mix to interpret.

But getting back to Uranus ...
- under Equal, my 11th house begins at 1Pis.
- under Koch, my 12th house begins at 17Pis.
- under Placidus, my 12th begins at 3Pis (but a minute earlier would be almost conjunct transit of Uranus)."


I wouldnt use transit all the time for this, cos 7th is opp 1st and in any house system this axis wouldnt change luv.

T Uranus opp sun/moon/venus will have caused the break up, plus T Uranus onto her sun is also a 'divorce' aspect and lots of impatience also.

Quite often T Saturn will break relationships also. Plus you need to look at which houses, house cusps are involved. Really need to see your chart....
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Unread 01-01-2009, 02:12 AM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by astrologer50

I have my MC in 11th house is Sag, it doesnt add anything to MC the sign is most important not house. Think you trying to over analyse this now.

Remember its JUST the house cusp and certain planets possibly moving from one house to another and therefore the interpretation obviously will be different....
Astro50: This makes no sense to me. I am totally on Iwonder's frequency. I'm not saying your point of view is wrong, I'm just saying I still don't understand what you are trying to say. What doesn't add anything to what? What is just the house cusp?

Maybe a basic example might clarify for me and Iwonder:

If the MC was in Sag in the 11th and the 10th house cusp was in Scorpio, with Jupiter in the 4th, and Pluto in the lets say 12th, and the client says 'what career do you recommend?' How would you interpret?
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Unread 01-01-2009, 02:59 AM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by astrologer50
iwonder,

I have my MC in 11th house is Sag, it doesnt add anything to MC the sign is most important not house. Think you trying to over analyse this now.
Oh, I am getting it. So MC is MC irregardless of the house it falls into. It's all the sign. All right, but how different is it from the 10th cusp?

My Virgo/Pisces axis is intercepted. Tim recently mentioned somewhere it can manifest as a tendency to overanalyze

Yes, please give an example of how you interpret MC in equal house. Yours, or someone else's. My MC is in Scorpio, 10th cusp falls in Virgo with Sun right on it.
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Unread 01-01-2009, 03:18 AM
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Re: Equal House Systems

Hey sorry I wonder, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. Its just, everything you've written so far, every way you've interpreted, is exactly how i've been interpreting this thread, and seems the logical way for me. I think we're at the same point now, so hopefully we'll be able to figure this out
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