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  #1  
Unread 04-17-2014, 09:13 PM
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Zaphod Zaphod is offline
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Business Question

I was recently asked to do a horary chart for a business question (chart attached). The chart data is: April 15, 2014, 2:34 PM EDT, Long. 72W33, Lat. 42N56, Regiomontanus Houses.

Background: Mr B is a self-employed factory sales representative for an apparel company, what used to be called a “traveling salesman.” Ms. P is his customer, a retailer of said apparel. Mr. B services Ms. P's account through order processing, tracking and remediation of manufacturer’s errors. This type of relationship has historically been built on highly personal, on-site attention to the customer's needs. Recently, Mr. B has become vulnerable to a creeping trend in the industry for buyers to order directly from the manufacturer's “inside” sales people, cutting out the middle-man and saving the manufacturer the 10% commission. Mr. B is concerned that Ms. P is considering making such a move in the near future.

The Question:

Will my customer, Ms. P, betray me and go behind my back to buy directly from the manufacture, both near-term and long-term?

This isn't an urgent request since I have already analyzed the chart and come up with an answer for the querent (outcome still pending). I'm interested in knowing what others think of this chart. Note that I tried it with Whole Sign Houses, but Regiomontanus seems to make more sense in this context. I also used outer-planet contacts but stayed with traditional rulerships and Ptolemaic aspects.
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Unread 04-18-2014, 03:51 AM
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Re: Business Question

Hello Zaphod!

Two things immediately stand out about the chart in the five minutes I've given it. The first is that the ASC is in very late degree; an indication that the querent already knows the answer and is asking out of desperation. This is further supported by the second stand out thing about the chart. Moon is Via Combust, just about a degree or so away from the exactness of her fall.

I am curious to know, since this is a learning forum, what you told your querent?
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Unread 04-18-2014, 03:58 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Business Question

For me, querent significator Sun conjunct South Lunar Node immediately casts a pall over this question-this factor alone, would lead me to give a negative outlook to the question (in other words, a "probably yes" about querent's customer ultimately "betraying" querent relative to the business matter involved)

Note, however, that I follow an alternative horary method, so the above statement does not represent standard horary outlook regarding this matter...
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Unread 04-18-2014, 04:07 AM
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Re: Business Question

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
For me, querent significator Sun conjunct South Lunar Node immediately casts a pall over this question-this factor alone, would lead me to give a negative outlook to the question (in other words, a "probably yes" about querent's customer ultimately "betraying" querent relative to the business matter involved)

Note, however, that I follow an alternative horary method, so the above statement does not represent standard horary outlook regarding this matter...
dr. farr, I don't follow an alternative horary method, and I still took note of the Sun with the SN. I suppose I should have said there were three things immediately to notice...

Other things to notice (so it doesn't look l missed SN, lol) are:

Ms P's significator is retro on her 10th house cusp, which is also the chart's 4th, disposited by a retro Mars in the 2nd house. This suggests that Ms. P is worried about her career/shop, her home, and her second house.

Mr. B's significator is exalted, in joy, but is also L12. Most recently separating from the Moon (and an eclipse) while Moon was in his fall.

Venus is exalted, in the 7th/descendant, and Moon's next aspect is to her from her detriment while Moon is also in detriment.

There is more, but I'm hoping to hear from Zaphod.
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Last edited by tsmall; 04-18-2014 at 04:22 AM.
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Unread 04-18-2014, 02:00 PM
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Re: Business Question

I just wrote a five-paragraph reply and lost the whole thing when I clicked on "Submit Reply." It's going to take me a bit to recover from the trauma. Please bear with me.
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Unread 04-18-2014, 05:24 PM
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Re: Business Question

I told Mr. B that Ms. P has already made the decision to change her business alignment but that she is hesitant to move forward aggressively, leaving him hanging for the moment. (Mr. B is a fellow astrologer - natal only - so I didn't have to "euphemize" too much for him.)

Here are the "bare bones" of the detailed narrative I tried to post earlier. (Disclaimer: Some of this may seem a trifle fanciful and not real nuts-and-bolts horary, but I went with it anyway considering the querent's modern astrology background.)

The radical chart considerations are discussed first, and the "turned chart" elements (placing the 7th House at the Ascendant) are brought in as needed. (Although Uranus and Neptune weren't necessary to reach a judgment, I mention them in passing. Pluto seems to be pretty much mute.)

Mr. B's significator is exalted in Aries in the 9th House, in the term of Saturn and conjunct the MSN: Mr. B believes he has the "moral high ground" but has intimations of "betrayal" and an impending blow to his pride. (I know Mr. B personally as something of an "alpha male" type.)

Retrograde Mars is in its detriment in the 2nd House of Mr. B's money and earning power, in the term of Mercury and far away from its "power base" in Aries. Mr. B's earnings will be set back (perhaps "crippled") by Ms. P's initiative, assuming it is as successful as she has been led to believe.

2nd House ruler Mercury is in Aries in the 8th House of Ms. P's money, opposed to Mars and in its own term. In the "battle of the money houses," it looks like Ms. P "owns" Mr. B's anemic Mars and his 2nd House ruler, so I give her the edge.

Venus is exalted in Pisces in the 7th House of the "business partner." It rules the radical MC from Ms. P's personal "stronghold." Ms. P is "sitting pretty," also benefiting from Fortuna in Pisces in the 7th and a strong applying trine from Venus to the exalted Jupiter in the 11th House of associates and acquaintances. However, neither of them is in the sign on the cusp, making me think that her maneuvering will be pushed further into the background as far as its visibility to Mr. B goes.

11th-House Jupiter is in Cancer, the sign of it's exaltation, and is in one leg of the evolving (but not yet "perfect") Cardinal Grand Cross. I see a Grand Cross as a rather static configuration that needs an "outlet" to kick it into action, and it looks like the trine to Venus "greases the skids." Interestingly, Mr. B believes that the idea of making the business change was presented to Ms. P by either a retail colleague or (more likely) an “inside sales” person at a trade show in Denver where field sales and manufacturers' in-house sales representatives mingle. However, Jupiter is also in a separating square to Mercury, showing that this advice may be “rose-colored” and overly optimistic.

The Moon, 11th House ruler, is weak in its fall in Scorpio, cadent and via combusta. It is in the term and face of the similarly weakened Mars. Mr. B was not privy to the Denver tête-à-tête, placing him at a disadvantage since he had no chance to proactively "put his oar in the water." The Moon is trine to the 7th House Fortuna; Mr. B's exclusion would seem to have played right into Ms. P's (and her assumed advisor's) hands.

Saturn is in Scorpio on the cusp of the IC (the "end of the matter" for Mr. B), but it is retrograde and has yet to move into the 4th ("turned 10th") House; it is in fact moving backward into cadent territory. 21 Scorpio is a "pitted" degree; Saturn is "like a person at the bottom of a pit, that is, blocked and immobilized." (Avelar and Ribeiro) This echoes the retrogradation, the cadency and the "bottom of the chart" emphasis. I told Mr. B that although Ms. P has already made her decision, she is hesitant to move forward, leaving him in limbo for the time being.


When the chart is turned to place Ms. P in the Ascendant, Saturn as Ascendant ruler comes into sharp focus as harbinger of her professional advancement. As "natural" lord of the 10th House it is empowering near the turned MC, although a bit uneasy as mentioned above. Especially in Scorpio, it makes me think of terms like “no holds barred” and “take no prisoners” when Ms. P finally decides to exercise it. Presently, though, she may be "at war" with herself over the initiative; Saturn in Scorpio would seem to be ruthless and powerfully situated for her, but it is "hanging fire," while the softer sentiments shown by Venus in Pisces in her 1st House (Neptune is also in Pisces and conjunct both Venus and Fortuna) may be giving her pause. Perhaps she wants to avoid confrontation with Mr. B, and hopes he will just "go away."

With Mercury and Sol in Aries in the turned 2nd and 3rd Houses respectively, I would think that she sees stepping out on her own as an "adventure" of sorts, as taking a "pioneering leap" into her financial future, and that she feels clever and innovative (Uranus is also conjunct Mercury) as well as a little self-righteous about her intentions. Jupiter dignified and generally well-aspected in the turned 5th gives me the idea she is even feeling prematurely celebratory about her prospects.

ETA: Looking ahead, transiting Saturn goes direct at 16 Scorpio on July 20, 2014, one day before stationary Uranus goes retrograde at 16 Aries, exactly opposite radical Mars. Could be a "trigger" for Ms. P. Transiting Mars goes direct at 9 Libra on May 20, 2014, giving Mr. B a couple of months to "right his ship and sail on."
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Last edited by Zaphod; 04-19-2014 at 12:02 AM.
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Unread 04-18-2014, 07:48 PM
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Re: Business Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Two things immediately stand out about the chart in the five minutes I've given it. The first is that the ASC is in very late degree; an indication that the querent already knows the answer and is asking out of desperation
Mr. B was suspicious but didn't actually know anything definite at the time he asked the question. He met with Ms. P yesterday for a normal sales visit, and I'm waiting to hear how that went.

Here is a quote from his reply to the preliminary written analysis I sent him:

"This is pretty cool and reflects what I expected the climate to be intuitively as well as professionally."

He also said that he feels "empowered" by it going into the meeting. (If he wasn't my brother I might charge him for it )
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Unread 04-19-2014, 11:16 AM
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Re: Business Question

After private discussions with other astrologers, I've come to the conclusion that the question was probably not formulated correctly to bear out the acknowledged (or at least strongly surmised) facts in this matter. Mr. B's fear of manipulation appears to be clouding his judgment (and THE judgment); his use of the words "betray" and "behind my back" are aimed at Ms. P but they imply a hidden or secret enemy, and that enemy would not seem to be Ms. P, who is at worst a well-situated opportunist. The apparel manufacturer is the "invisible hand" moving the pieces on the chessboard here, and Ms. P looks like a pawn in their maneuvering (although most likely a willing one.) This would explain the perception that she was enticed by the manufacturer's rep at the trade show to, in Mr. B's eyes, "come over to the Dark Side" and cut him out of the picture. Mr. B's preomonitions are not unfounded, however; previous "restructuring" of the "seller-salesman-buyer" interface by this manufacture has already cost him $40,000 in annual profits. He refers to them as "morally bankrupt."

The radical 12th House of "hidden enemies" is occupied by Leo, and its Lord is also the querent's significator, implying that Mr. B - although he is too obsessed with Ms. P to see it - could be "his own worst enemy" in this regard. However, the Sun is elevated, exalted in Aries and in its triplicity, afflicted only by the conjunction with the MSN, so its condition in the chart is anything but secretive or otherwise problematic. The manufacturer is certainly the economic "Sun in the sky" of both Mr. B's and Ms. P's businesses, and its managers probably see themselves as doing the inevitable "belt-tightening" that businesses do in tough economic times (these days, it's often a euphemism for ruthless cost-cutting in order to show investors continued growth in profitability). The "human element" is usually one of the first casualties.

Given that the question was aimed at the wrong target, it probably wouldn't be productive to turn the chart to see if the manufacturer's role will emerge any more clearly. I don't think any ambiguity exists about Mr. B's and Ms. P's positions in the matter, but the third-party element doesn't jump out at me as clearly. I will continue watching developments but, unless someone else sees something I don't here, I'm done with the analysis.

ETA: One question remains for me, though. Given that the querent's "career" and "money" houses (10/2) are seriously dignified by the placement of, and aspects to, their Lord, Venus, is it safe to say that - since it is in the house of friends and open enemies - his business partner still has significant power over those area of his life? She can certainly reject the blandishments of the manufacturer, and I can see what is being said about retrograde planets "bringing something back" to the querent; I'm just wondering whether she retains the initiative in the relationship. How the querent left things at their recent meeting should hopefully shed some light on that.
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Last edited by Zaphod; 04-19-2014 at 03:57 PM.
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Unread 04-20-2014, 04:21 AM
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Re: Business Question

For me, nothing signifies the "dark side" more than the South Node; its connection with significator Sun in the horary chart*, indicated (to me) the overall unfortunate or difficult nature of this matter, and that things would likely not turn out all that well...


(*note too that the SN is posited at the top of the reference chart-ie, highly elevated, and certainly elevated above the "benefics"!)
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Unread 04-20-2014, 11:00 AM
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Re: Business Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
For me, nothing signifies the "dark side" more than the South Node; its connection with significator Sun in the horary chart*, indicated (to me) the overall unfortunate or difficult nature of this matter, and that things would likely not turn out all that well...


(*note too that the SN is posited at the top of the reference chart-ie, highly elevated, and certainly elevated above the "benefics"!)
Thanks for the input! I'm still grappling a bit with this. Other traditional astrologers I'm talking to about this chart don't see the conjunction to the MSN as an indicator of "calamity," and -except for it being conjunct the node and in the term of Saturn - the Sun as the querent's significator seems rather well dignified (elevated, exalted and in its joy.) I also have to overcome something of a personal bias against paying attention to the nodes since I've always been uncomfortable with the spiritual and karmic correspondences assigned to them by some modern astrologers.
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Unread 04-21-2014, 03:04 AM
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Re: Business Question

Nodes were used (albeit not as extensively as in Indian astrology) by the Hellenists and throughout the subsequent periods in the West.

Gerard of Cremona (contemporary with Bonatti) and, later, H.C. Agrippa, gave a good deal of emphasis to the Nodes in divination; Gerard of Cremona defined the influence of the Nodes in terms of similarity to planetary mixtures: North Node = to a mix of the influences of Jupiter + Venus, the South Node = to a mix of the influences of Mars and Saturn. For these authors, the Nodes were not linked to karmic/spiritual considerations or significations.

It is, however, true, that over the past 300 years in Western horary, little influence has been accorded to the Nodes in horary delineation: Gerard of Cremona, Agrippa, and also (much earlier) Thabit ibn Qurra (10th century), were the authors who accorded great significance to Nodes in horary delineation-other horary authors did not accord much delineative significance to them.

The oral horary tradition I learned about and use, which I have termed the "Ankara" horary method, arising as it did-allegedly-from oldtime Ottoman astrology, also accords much significance to the Nodes in delineation, but not in connection with karmic or spiritual significations.
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Unread 04-21-2014, 09:28 AM
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Re: Business Question

I understand. I was mixing my methods here. The spiritual and karmic correspondences for the nodes came from the "humanistic" astrologers of the 1970s and 1980s, who were practicing psychological natal astrology. While gathering material for an "Astrology 101" primer I was putting together for a beginner class, I accumulated everything I could get my hands on about the nodes (in my own library, that is) and was struck by how "squishy" some of the meanings are. But I have only gotten serious about traditional horary (and classical astrology in general) over the last year and didn't have any of the classical literature at the time. Absorbing that and keeping it all sorted out takes a good deal of peristence. But I have in fact come across the North Node = Jupiter+Venus = Good/ South Node = Mars+Saturn = Bad associations and can relate to them in practical terms.
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Last edited by Zaphod; 04-21-2014 at 09:32 AM.
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Unread 04-30-2014, 10:03 AM
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Re: Business Question

The querent had his meeting with the customer. He said it was "productive, and possibly profitable." He tactfully brought up the subject of the Denver meeting to see if she would reveal anything of what transpired. Her reply was that she saw "no reason to touch on that topic at the present time." Not a categorical vote of confidence, but not exactly a "parting handshake" either. Because she was being so cagey, he decided to push ahead with opening up new accounts in that territory for his other competing product lines. I had given him the revised outlook that resulted from our discussion here and on another astrological forum, and he agreed that was how it panned out for the most part. It may not be over yet, judging from his customer's reticence, but the staus quo reigns at the moment.
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Unread 05-01-2014, 03:36 AM
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Re: Business Question

Thanks for updating!
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