Two Planets that are in detriment and in mutual reception.

princess valhalla · Dec 16, 2012

My chart contains no planets in domicile or exaltation. I do have two planets in detriment. Jupiter in Virgo and Mercury in Sagittarius. They square each other and mutually receive one another. They also are the two final depositors in my chart.
My question is this: Do I get any benefit from the reception or do they just neutralize each other? Also, how does this effect my chart as a whole?

Thanks!

JUPITERASC · Dec 16, 2012

princess valhalla said:
My chart contains no planets in domicile or exaltation. I do have two planets in detriment. Jupiter in Virgo and Mercury in Sagittarius. They square each other and mutually receive one another. They also are the two final depositors in my chart.

It's not possible to have TWO 'final dispositors' of a natal chart.

That's because 'final' dispositor means = ONLY ONE planet that is dispositor

When two planets are in mutual reception then there is no final dispositor of a chart

princess valhalla · Dec 16, 2012

Ok that means there is no final depositor in my chart then. My main question though has to do with two planets in detriment that are in mutual reception.

"Do I get any benefit from the reception or do they just neutralize each other? Also, how does this effect my chart as a whole?"

tsmall · Dec 16, 2012

princess valhalla said:
Ok that means there is no final depositor in my chart then. My main question though has to do with two planets in detriment that are in mutual reception.

"Do I get any benefit from the reception or do they just neutralize each other? Also, how does this effect my chart as a whole?"

Princess V, we would need the whole chart to answer that.

Off the top of my head I would want to know more about both planets to before deciding...things like whose terms they are in, which houses...is it a day or night chart...and those just for starters.

But to answer using just the conditions you have set forth, I would think of it more like détente. Being in detriment is similar to being in enemy territory. That they are in each others' domiciles is like having the kings of warring countries be forced to live in each other's castles. Niether one wants to be where he is, but neither one is willing to throw quite a fit about it for fear of the other. The square means there are probably skirmishes along the way. Like watching opposing political parties argue.

miquar · Dec 16, 2012

Hi. Mercury and Jupiter rule the mutable signs and are in mutable signs in your chart. They also generate excess energy through their connection by square aspect. So this is an inherently restless configuration. The elements involved are fire and earth - the 'doing' elements. There's a sense of needing to apply the mind to some project which has results, rather than just learning for the sake of learning.

Mercury and Jupiter approach learning in different ways of course, but the natural tension between them is already embodied in the sign placement of each because of the mutual reception. So there is a need to apply the mind to something which feels expansive and meaningful, but which also develops your skilfulness in working with the mundane world. Virgo and Sagittarius have in common the need to improve things through understanding them. Sagittarius has the confidence to envisage new potentials - for getting the best out if things. Virgo has the patience and discrimination to get things running like clockwork and properly integrated into everyday life.

When planets are in tense aspect. I would see mutual reception between them as adding to the aspect to make a strong theme in the chart (and definitely NOT neutralising each other), and also making it easier to find a channel for their combined energy. Jupiter and Mercury are basically friends in your chart, and will probably tend to bounce off one another in a very productive manner.

JUPITERASC · Dec 16, 2012

Although due to Mutual Reception, Mercury and Jupiter are therefore 'friends' in your chart there is a well known ancient proverb that is worth keeping in mind i.e. "with some friends who needs enemies"

QUOTE:

"....Detriment and Fall source, free definitions at: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig4.html

As in taking the Fortitudes of the Planets, great care ought to be had, so their Debilities must be observed with no less care and prudence;

wherein I advise you to beware of the Effects or Influence of a Planet when he is in Detriment; rather than when he is in Fall. For a Planet in his Detriment is like a person cast out of all his Estate without hopes of Recovery, whereas the Fall shows but a present subjection unto a misfortune with hopes of Recovery. (William Lilly, 'Choice Astrological Aphorisms' Merlini Anglici Ephemeris, 1676)...."

"...A planet in detriment or fall is in a precarious condition, more so if it is peregrine or otherwise afflicted..." The extent to which two precariously placed people can help each other is debatable

princess valhalla · Dec 17, 2012

Hi Tsmall. Chart attached. I am very interested in your traditional pov.
Miguar, thanks! I've actually started writing, always wanted to but just never got around to it until recently. My mind is always thinking, contemplating, observing. "There's a sense of needing to apply the mind to some project which has results, rather than just learning for the sake of learning." I totally agree with that.
Thanks JupAsc.

tsmall · Dec 17, 2012

So Jupiter and Mercury are frenimies, squaring each other from the 5th/7th. Jupiter rules your 8th and 11th, and is exaltation ruler of your 3rd. 11 and 3 all have people in common. How do you feel about your interpersonal relationships? Mercury rules your 2nd and 5th...so again how do you see those houses working?

I would actually, viewing your chart, be more "worried" (not worried but I can't think of a better word right now) about your out of sect malefic, Mars, so closely conjoined with Jupiter.

If you really are interested in a traditional pov, you might like this link before diving into buying books on traditional astrology.

http://www.astroclassic.org/text-trad/UsingMedievalAstrologyPartI.pdf

Moog · Dec 17, 2012

princess valhalla said:
My chart contains no planets in domicile or exaltation. I do have two planets in detriment. Jupiter in Virgo and Mercury in Sagittarius. They square each other and mutually receive one another. They also are the two final depositors in my chart.
My question is this: Do I get any benefit from the reception or do they just neutralize each other? Also, how does this effect my chart as a whole?

Thanks!

Look at the life topics symbolised by the houses ruled by the planets involved. That should be indicative.

As a proponent of the sidereal zodiac, I'm not finding the exchange yogas mentioned. However there is an exchange of the rulers of 5, 9, and 12 (Sun/Jupiter)

princess valhalla · Dec 24, 2012

Thanks TSmall! That looks like a really comprehensive link. I'm not sure how I feel about my interpersonal relationships. For whatever reason, I can understand others way more than I can understand myself.
So mars should be above the horizon in a day chart thus out of sect in mine. Not sure about that virgo mars either. I have way too much nervous energy, anxiety. :annoyed:

Hey Moog! The ruler of 5th in the 9th is good. I'm not sure about ruler of the 12th in the fifth. The 12th is a very confusing house, like mist. I'll have to think about this.

JUPITERASC · Dec 24, 2012

princess valhalla said:
....The 12th is a very confusing house, like mist. I'll have to think about this.

Two threads discuss "Origins of 12th House Meanings" at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49348 and also at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49254 "12th/6th House Axis and Slavery - But What Exactly IS Slavery?"

JUPITERASC said:
I have observed that the idea of 'slavery' and whether it may or may not exist in the 21st Century is frequently raised/mentioned when 12th and/or 6th house matters are being discussed.

The idea of this thread then is to discuss what the word 'slavery' meant in the past as well as to discuss whether 'slavery' (despite having been officially 'abolished') nevertheless persists in some form in the present day. The idea is to compare 'slavery' as it existed in the past to 'slavery' in the various guises and forms in which it may still exist today

tsmall · Dec 24, 2012

princess valhalla said:
Thanks TSmall! That looks like a really comprehensive link. I'm not sure how I feel about my interpersonal relationships. For whatever reason, I can understand others way more than I can understand myself.

You are welcome. :biggrin:

For others reading along, the link is to an approximately 100 page pdf by Ben Dykes entitled "Using Midieval Astrology." It is as good a starting point as any.

princess valhalla said:
So mars should be above the horizon in a day chart thus out of sect in mine.

er, no. Mars is a nocturnal planet. Diurnal planets are the Sun, Jupiter, and Saturn. Nocturnal planets are the Moon, Venus and Mars. Mercury's sect will depend on his position relative to the Sun (or on the sect of his bound ruler if you follow Valens.) In a day chart the nocturnal planets are naturally out of sect anyway (and equally so for diurnal planets in a night chart,) but are better if they are below the horizon.

greybeard · Dec 24, 2012

True, when two planets in reception dispose all other planets, there is no final dispositor...

There is a mutual disposition of the chart, and the two planets are potent.
Mutual disposition of the chart should not be ignored or shunt aside as insignificant.

In many charts there will be a chain of three planets that between them dispose the chart. This situation becomes too dilute to be of any real value in interpretation (as dispositors of the chart), but consider this idea. These three planets form a psychological complex that is characterized by a "going round and round." Moon disposes Mercury, Mercury disposes Jupiter, Jupiter disposes Moon...and all the other planets are ruled by these three. This chain, or merry-go-round, can be interpreted significantly, but the complex is on such a low level in the hierarchy of "what's important" that other things are apt to take a much more significant role in the life.

But two planets acting as mutual dispositors of a chart Do play an important role. The rather odd mutual disposition of Mercury and Uranus in the chart of Bobby Fischer comes to mind. The two planets are in square, but occupy the same Element (Air) rather than the same Quality. He had an IQ of 185. As a chess player he was a brilliant original mind; as an everyday person he was a kook, and seemed to take delight in being obnoxious and categorical. He was unwilling to make any compromise, or be subject to any rules but his own. This was true of him to a greater degree than just the aspect would normally indicate. Final or mutual dispositors play a dominant role in the life.

JUPITERASC · Dec 25, 2012

greybeard said:
...The rather odd mutual disposition of Mercury and Uranus in the chart of Bobby Fischer comes to mind. The two planets are in square, but occupy the same Element (Air) rather than the same Quality. He had an IQ of 185. As a chess player he was a brilliant original mind; as an everyday person he was a kook, and seemed to take delight in being obnoxious and categorical. He was unwilling to make any compromise, or be subject to any rules but his own. This was true of him to a greater degree than just the aspect would normally indicate. Final or mutual dispositors play a dominant role in the life.

Notice with Bobby Fischer's natal chart though that Mercury is located in Aquarius that for at least two thousand years is considered the traditional natural home aka domicile of Saturn whilst Saturn is located in Gemini the traditional natural home aka domicile of Mercury

THEREFORE in Bobby Fischer's natal chart, Mercury is in Mutual Reception with Saturn :smile:

greybeard · Dec 25, 2012

Yes, Jup.....

In Fischer's chart I looked at both Saturn (always my first choice, because the traditional ruler) and Uranus as lord of Aquarius.

I use a flexible system of rulerships. I look to the chart to tell me whether the traditional or the modern rulership is to be preferred. In case of doubt I stick to the traditional. What I try to do is to determine which of the two potential rulers is more powerful in the chart in hand; I use that planet, if there is a notable difference in power, as ruler. If they are about equal, or ambiguous, I hold to the traditional ruler.

In Bobby's chart Uranus jumps out because:

1. He is involved in the grand trine, which defines the very structure of the whole chart. The triplet of Mars-Uranus-Neptune are in partile trine to each other, and the chart is built around this trine. It is the outstanding feature of the map, and Uranus is not only participant but exceptionally active and powerful.
2. Comparatively, Saturn is weakly aspected and moves away from Uranus. Saturn does not pause or return by progression. They have had their final contact, and Saturn left his "gifts" with Uranus. In my perspective, Saturn is not ignored, but is subordinated to Uranus. He is just not as active, powerful, or involved as Uranus is.

That is why I use Uranus here. Regarding the square to Mercury, it is a "cross-sign" square in that the two planets don't share Quality, as is normal, but Element. This square itself is another factor that led me to give more weight to Uranus as lord of Aquarius in this chart.

The revolutionary nature -- rather than conservative -- of Fischer's chess game and also attiitude toward the "value" of chess tournaments, while not a stand-alone confirmation, does tend to substantiate Uranus, through the life. Add to that the exceptional IQ, which is certainly something indicated by the square (but not by Saturn, if used), and there is further confirmation of Uranus' rulership. I think we should always check our judgments against the life.

But your point is valid; I agree. But due to the way I handle rulerships (on a chart by chart basis) I selected Uranus.

JUPITERASC · Dec 25, 2012

greybeard said:
....The revolutionary nature -- rather than conservative -- of Fischer's chess game and also attiitude toward the "value" of chess tournaments, while not a stand-alone confirmation, does tend to substantiate Uranus, through the life. Add to that the exceptional IQ, which is certainly something indicated by the square (but not by Saturn, if used), and there is further confirmation of Uranus' rulership. I think we should always check our judgments against the life.

But your point is valid; I agree. But due to the way I handle rulerships (on a chart by chart basis) I selected Uranus.

Close to two thousand years ago, practicing Hellenistic astrologer Vettius Valens wrote:

"Mercury’s nature is to contest and to destabilize"

Notice Mercury's square aka challenging aspect to Saturn - whose natural home aka domiciles are Capricorn and Aquarius

....hence revolutionary nature :smile:

greybeard · Dec 25, 2012

Not my intention to argue the point.

I told you why I did what I did.

Have a beer.

Moog · Dec 25, 2012

princess valhalla said:
Hey Moog! The ruler of 5th in the 9th is good. I'm not sure about ruler of the 12th in the fifth. The 12th is a very confusing house, like mist. I'll have to think about this.

Probably a mixed blessing

JUPITERASC · Dec 25, 2012

greybeard said:
Not my intention to argue the point.

I told you why I did what I did.

Have a beer.

Understood :smile:

greybeard · Dec 25, 2012

Jup...

Think of Queen Victoria, Monarch of England (Saturn)
Think of Gladstone, her PM (Uranus)

It was Gladstone who gave India to Victoria for her birthday.

The titular ruler of England was Victoria. The effective ruler was Gladstone.

Two Planets that are in detriment and in mutual reception.

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